The Time of The Doctor

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    Arbutus @arbutus

    Really, guys, I was only away for three days. Whilst I was communing with my sister arbutus trees during the day, and enjoying lots of lovely pinot noir in the evening, you all were going crazy on here. I expect that it will take me until 2014 to get caught up.  🙂

    @phaseshift     The Doctor had previously stated in the Doctor 10 Cybermen two parter that when the Time Lords were around hoping between Universes was no problem. Once the crack is there, they have a measure of control over it.  – or –  The other is to say that the overwriting of timelines has consequences, a rebound effect of Time lines reconciling that Doctor 11 has been living through. The Silence have travelled back from what we’ve just witnessed to a point in the Timelines where the change in state of the Time Lords is not in effect. Through those cracks to other places, there is just “Silence”. Nobody is on the other side because Gallifrey burned. That’s a more dynamic view of the Whoniverse, with states in flux, which I think I’m drawn to more.


    I agree that the second view is a more elegant and interesting one. I would rather that the solution lie in the nature of the cracks themselves than in the Time Lord’s ability to control them. I’m trying to remember whether the cracks came and went in any of the other stories in which they appeared. I will have to do some rewatching.

    @phaseshift @cathannabel
    Good point about the connection between the Weeping Angels and the topiary animals in The Shining. I haven’t read that book in years, but used to read a lot of Stephen King, and always found that story to be much more human tragedy than horror (but also really, really scary!)

    @jimthefish         I can also share @juniperfish‘s misgivings about Clara/Doc schtick as well but I have to say it didn’t really bug me too terribly.     I third this. I felt less concern about this little “reveal” because, apart from the fact of imminent regeneration changing the game, this attraction was clearly something that Clara had not intended revealing. I would like to think that, unlike Rose and Martha, she was able to see the Doctor very clearly for the alien that he was, and that anything deeper than friendship was quite impractical.



    Arbutus @arbutus


    You say that “the 50th was supposed to be about the time war” and “it was supposed to be at least 15-20min of daleks with their plan against the multi doctors and their plan , a little bit of fighting ,explosions, and some interesting evil villans plan ,and then the doctors find a solution of the problem in somekind of mindblowing scenario”. I’m not sure where you got this idea from, but I don’t think that the 50th was supposed to be about anything. Of course, we all hoped for things; most of us saw some, most, or all of our hopes fulfilled. But surely we can’t blame Moffat if his ideas were not the same as ours.

    Regarding Trenzalore, you say that “this was the doctors grave,or a crazy time loop of somekind ,or somekind of a crazy timey wimey thing ,the souls of all doctors in one place,or…in the end of the story  trenzelore dissapeared in the beggining of the 50th?? and then appeared at cristmas as a town or a planet??” This is not supported by the in-story evidence. Trenzalore was always a planet, a place that contained the Doctor’s grave. His grave was the TARDIS, which contained his entire timeline. The town of Christmas was a town on the planet Trenzalore, where, presumably, in the alternative future before the Doctor(s) restored Gallifrey, the Doctor, as an old man, died at the Battle of Trenzalore in a small skirmish. In this timeline, he didn’t die, and the TARDIS did not become his tomb.

    Regarding River Song: in my view, her story has been resolved. I saw her goodbye to the Doctor in NotD as a final farewell. Perhaps, like a ghost whose soul was tied to earth by those who mourned it, she couldn’t rest until the Doctor released her memory with a proper goodbye. If there is any possibility of a connection to Clara, that is part of Clara’s story now, and could be revealed at any time in the future.

    When it came to the plot points surrounding the Hurt Doctor and the regeneration limit, I have to admit to having no problem with either. While I enjoyed the various clever alternatives that people came up with for the identity of the Hurt Doctor, they never really convinced me. I always assumed that he would be the Time War doctor, because in this case, the simplest solution seemed the most likely. And while it is true that Moffat could have resolved the regeneration issue in any number of ways, I’m not sure that another solution would have been any better than the one we got.

    FInally, regarding your earlier comments that some of the theories expressed on the forum being too complicated, unlikely to have been in Moffat’s mind, and unlikely to have occurred to most fans. I would point out in response that this is not a typical fan forum. Here, people perform speculative analysis: that is, they craft thoughtful, creative essays in which they look for deeper or hidden themes and connections in the story lines and arcs. They don’t necessarily assume that Moffat or any other writer deliberately put those themes in place, or knowingly made those connections. However, it gives them pleasure to look for these ideas and share them with others. If this kind of writing doesn’t interest you, if your only version of “truth” is the surface story that the writers told and that the casual viewer saw, then this is probably not the forum for you. There is nothing wrong with that approach; it is just not the approach that is largely taken here.


    Arbutus @arbutus

    @besd1     @phaseshift     “It does seem to suggest that the Time Lords (and Doctors) fears about them being frozen in that moment in an alternative Universe were unfounded. Time seems to play out at some pace on the other side.” Or is the question looped over again because the Time Lords are frozen in a discrete slice of time during which they can act (to find the crack, send the message, deliver regeneration energy etc) but cannot escape without an exit route.

    I would guess that they are caught in some kind of time loop, perhaps repeated a brief segment of time over and over, with the possibility of change only when influenced from outside, as when Clara spoke to them through the crack. Perhaps this is why they can’t re-enter our universe without the Doctor? Because they are frozen in the time loop except when an outside force intervenes.

    @besd1 @rob     I’ll admit that I had given no thought to the term “Papal Mainframe”. How is it a mainframe? It’s hard to believe that this has no meaning beyond being a clever name for a space church.

    @bluesqueakpip     Tasha Lem – I think she’s the ’cause’ to River’s ‘effect’. The Doctor clearly flirts like mad with her whenever they meet; he’s visibly attracted. So, when the Kovarian Chapter run off and try and create a bespoke psychopath, they turn River into a copy of the woman the Doctor has the hots for.

    Wow. This is the most convincing explanation for the apparent similarities between Tasha and River that I have read.


    Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013



    I’d also say that this forum people put their wild theories up and other members say whether they agree or disagree and give reason.


    to me, when we found out that the time war was gonna be in the 50th it was kind of obvious who hurt was.

    just a quick question though if gallifrey (I can’t remember how to spell it and I’ve just woke up) is in another universe is it possible for the doctor to go looking for it or will it be shut off like rose is?


    if that means the whole purpose of saving the timelords was so they can save him in totd and we won’t be seeing them again… Kinda hope not coz them saving him gives the doc another reason to go looking for his home

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    @ tennantmarsters2013 I agree I hope the only reason Moffat bought the possibility of the timelords being alive again, all be it in a pocket universe, was not just so he had a mechanism for giving the doctor a new regen cycle. I do think that it actually gives the doctor a two fold or even a three fold task.

    1. To find gallifrey again.

    2. To find a way of bringing them back without restarting the time war.

    And here’s the one I actually like
    3. Judging weather the time lords should be released, let’s be honest the high council has shown themselves to be a bit suspect in TEOT. Though the war council does appear to be more rational so it’s obvious that at least some timelords are not plain batty. But the future doctor be it Capaldi’s doctor or some other will have to address the issue that the Timelords had become almost as much monsters in the eyes of the races in the know as the Daleks. He needs to find a way to return them to some version of the “moral” (and I use the term with some reluctance given their aloofness at times) pre time war Timelords as the appear to have almost regressed to the amoral dark times version mentioned in the 5 doctors.

    Well that’s my thoughts for the present and more knowledgeable members will be able to postulate and remould the above into better speculations and theories.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    is it possible for the doctor to go looking for it or will it be shut off like rose is?

    Good question. Judging by Trenzalore, the problem isn’t that the Doctor can’t find it, or they can’t send a message through. It’s that the Time War will restart if they come back.

    I’d say Moffat’s given two presents to the producers of the next fifty years. Firstly, he’s sorted out the regenerations rather than leaving it for the next producer. He hasn’t made the Doctor immortal – but given that the actor playing the Doctor tends to stay an average of 3 or 4 years, it’s likely that the problem’s next going to hit in the run up to the 100th Anniversary.

    Secondly, he’s not only flipped the scenario of the first fifty years (the Doctor is running away from Gallifrey) around (the Doctor is running to Gallifrey) – but he’s brought the Time Lords back in a manner which means that they can be used as and when.

    If you don’t want the Time Lords in your story, they’re stuck behind the cracks, in another universe. If you do want them in your story, introduce a crack.

    The Time Lords are back – but in a way which means the writer can easily justify them not being able to interfere.

    Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013

    @bluesqueakpip and @devilishrobby

    i have a sneaky feeling they will be back but they won’t be good guys…I can’t explain why at the moment but it’s just a gut feeling I guess if they could send the energy through the crack why couldn’t they have just gone through the crack themselves? After trensalote obviously because it looked like they controlled the crack …


    i like the idea of them coming back as open ended for future writers to use if they so wish. It’s almost as if Moffat is leaving a gift behind…maybe season 8 could be his last season?!? Just speculation of course on my part.


    @devilishrobby you mean the doctor rehabilitates them? Sounds good to me he would be an actual doctor then 😉




    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @devilishrobby – yeah, I agree. The Doctor’s a bit of an optimist in saying ‘they’ll come in peace’. However, it’s perfectly possible that he’s saying that in the sure and certain knowledge that he’s not the only Gallifreyan who wants peace. In Night of The Doctor he says ‘I’m one of the nice ones,’ not ‘I’m the nice one.’

    Moffat’s developed a very nuanced approach to ‘evil aliens’, so I can easily see him developing away from regarding ‘The Time Lords’ as a monolithic block. There are signs of that in The Day of The Doctor, when the Time Lords of the War Council and the Time Lords of the High Council have totally different aims and plans. The High Council wants to destroy the universe to save themselves; the War Council are very busy defending the planet and their soldiers can be clearly seen trying to get the civilians to a place of safety.

    But the Time Lords have definitely got an image problem. You can see that in the wide-scale reaction of ‘no way would the Time Lords give the Doctor new regenerations just because they love him!’

    I mean, honestly? This is a guy who’s just saved their entire planet, and nobody believes they’ll happily save his life back? Yeah, the Time Lords have a serious image problem.

    The only way they can get back without causing a war is by solving the image problem.

    Oh, and the Dalek problem. I presume there’s some reason Mr Moffat effectively went ‘ah, oops, no, I can’t have the Daleks forget the Doctor…’

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @cathannabel @wolfweed

    I must admit the poetry aspect threw me as well. The only references I’ve found are the ones on TARDIS wiki about the use of it in this episode which @wolfweed linked to, so I guessed the author may be a private joke with SM.

    I quite like the use of “in-universe” poetry, rhymes (tick-tock goes the clock) and other bits and pieces that litter the series. It’s great for mythology building and was always one of the best aspects of the spin-off novels and comics. There is a Fifth Doctor comic strip called “Tides of Time” that @wolfweed will have read, that ended up with the Doctor finding a stone statue to a temporary companion (a Knight) with a carved inscription:

    The journey has not ended here,
    For his spirit claimed,
    By death knell’s chime,
    Lies waiting still,
    To cross once more a Sea of Stars,
    And sail the Tides of Time.

    Which would be a great sentiment for the Doctors incarnations themselves.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    I was looking thro the blogs for @phaseshift‘s brilliant rundown on the morals of the Time Lords – but I can’t find it now 🙁  But safe to say they’ve never been a particularly reputable or trustworthy bunch – and generally get worse every time we’ve seen them. All that (almost) absolute power n stuff.

    But I agree – they’re now available if required, and can be a long term motivation.  I like what Moffat has done in clearing the decks for Capaldi’s run, even if he went round the houses tpo do it, haha.

    OTOH I did come across this blog (by the prophetic @bluesqueakpip) which is worth re-viewing, considering it was written way back in May!

    ScaryB @scaryb


    Everything has an end, Clara, even bonkers theories*

    Oh, you think??!

    Just cos there’s a few less dangling ends than usual, you think we’re gonna stop now?!  @juniperfish, @bluesqueakpip and me are just getting started on the wealth of possibilities that is Tasha Lem, for starters 😉

    (Feel free to join in!)


    *We should maybe clear out the few dead ones in the cupboard behind the sofa tho… the rest perked up when they realised they could all happily coexist with the official series in their own little bubble universes/aborted timelines etc

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord


    That blogs here, Time Lords: Timelocked and I’m loving it.

    I’ve been trying to think of ideas to better access blogs, as we get more. If anyone has any ideas let us know on the Website Comments thread.

    OsakaHatter @osakahatter


    I guess if they could send the energy through the crack why couldn’t they have just gone through the crack themselves?

    Perhaps they could have, but they knew it wasn’t safe to do so – hence calling for the Doctor.  He’s their man on the outside, waiting to let them know when it’s safe to come out.  This does suggest that the saner elements of TimeLord society are in control for the moment, because the High Council we saw in The End of Time would have no compunction about storming straight through, even if it did lead to a resumption of the Time War.

    I think the whole bubble universe solution to the TimeLords is rather neat.  On my wish list for the anniversary was to remove the Lonely God shtick, but as @phaseshift explained so well in his blog having the TimeLords back wouldn’t be an improvement.  This 3rd way neatly side steps both issues and as @bluesqueakpip points out, offers the opportunity for TimeLords to be in stories if the writer desires while having them out of the way the rest of the time.  I’d be very very surprised if we see them merged back into the universe proper anytime soon.  It’s just a vague motivation for the Doctor in the same way that getting away from them was for the first 50 years (well, 26 at any rate.)


    Oh, and the Dalek problem. I presume there’s some reason Mr Moffat effectively went ‘ah, oops, no, I can’t have the Daleks forget the Doctor…’

    Yeah, that jumped out at me too, but I guess it ties with the Cyber Controller saying he could be rebuilt from the gaps, River telling him he shouldn’t hide from the universe (or something on those lines) and with the memory themes of the last year – the Doctor finally accepting that he shouldn’t forget his own past mirrored by an acceptance that he can’t make the universe forget him.

    Doctor_know @doctorknow

    To be honest, I was disappointed with the episode, but I am looking forward to Peter Capaldi being the next the doctor! The only problem I see, is that I’m only going to see Malcolm tucker with a sonic screwdriver 😀

    People are already making  parodies. this is the best one i could find :


    Whisht @whisht

    Hi all – been lurking but reading and catching up (especially after being with non-Who family and friends over!).

    Must admit, on 1st viewing I thought it wasn’t greatest story and was tough for those who hadn’t been following the whole series, but on second viewing I thought it was actually quite well paced (not rushed), thoughtful but a bit less emotional than the first viewing.

    Just shows you what I know!

    Obviously better insights upthread but haven’t seen anyone mention why Clara’s family are different. She now has a mum and dad? Isn’t this the same Clara that was looking after the kids?

    But I can reveal the origins of Tasha Lem’s name.

    yup. Exclusive. Its cos I has me fumb on the pulse of cultshure.



    ie ‘coolest hot girl who is a supreme being and who’s also a bit of a warrior.’



    Arbutus @arbutus

    @bluesqueakpip   @nicelyuseless   @scaryb   @phaseshift

    On Doctor numbering: In my mind, the numbers of the doctors, like names, have become so intrinsically linked to their faces and personalities that I doubt I could separate them now. When I think “Ninth Doctor”, I see Eccelston and all his swagger, and “Tenth Doctor” brings up the emotional tone and grandiosity of RTD and David Tennant. To try and change that would cause me endless confusion, and since Moffat and the BBC seem to agree that Eleven is still Eleven (even though we know that he is the thirteenth incarnation), I am quite comfortable with sticking with the familiar numbers, and identifying Hurt as the “War Doctor”.

    Whisht @whisht

    btw, I didn’t spot that the regeneration given to the Doctor was another “full set”.

    It probably was, but equally, if Moffat wanted to, we could get to the end of Capaldi’s reign and him not know whether he has any more left (something I like and I think @jimthefish mentioned).

    It wasn’t the greatest – there were quite a few moments on second viewing that I thought were a bit “oh, come on…” like Clara remembering the Silence (“I saw you then I forgot you – how did that happen?”), telling a fib to not-Barnabas, the Tardis not having a broken window and thus being a different Tardis to the grave-Tardis (was the future already changed?) and I think there were others…


    I actually liked it as an episode (if not a xmas extravanganza) and far more importantly we DID learn one thing that makes all of those nitpicking niggles irrelevant.

    Shaved heads are cool.


    Arbutus @arbutus

    @juniperfish @scaryb
    I like the idea that the Doctor’s centuries of commitment to the people of Trenzalore allow him to “grow up”, something which the War Doctor noted that he definitely was not when the three doctors met in DotD. If the Doctor had not come to terms with his history, redeemed his past self and rescued Gallifrey, he would have arrived on Trenzalore as a much different person.

    We know that in the alternate timeline, he died on Trenzalore as an old man, but we don’t know how he got to that point. Perhaps he didn’t stay, but came and went as he has done before, running towards and away from things, including his own death. And died in the end, ultimately, because he had not created a new future for the Time Lords, and so they were not behind the crack to create a new future for him.
    But DotD happened, Gallifrey was saved, and “the man who forgets” became “the man who stayed for Christmas”. I expect (hope) that we will see this growth reflected in the Capaldi doctor to come.


    Arbutus @arbutus

    @whisht    Matt Smith actually says, at one point, “a whole new regeneration cycle”. So he certainly thinks that’s what he’s been given. I guess time will tell if he is right.  🙂

    Loving the definition of “Tasha Lem”!

    Whisht @whisht

    ah @arbutus – thanks, I missed that!


    what’s the emoticon for “slaps head”?

    [though not ‘slaphead’. I may well be a slaphead, but that’s different]

    Arbutus @arbutus

    You’re right about the slower pace, it did give it a bit of BG feel. I liked that, although I could still have done with a few more minutes so that a bit of the shoelace-tying could have been a little less frantic. Great notion that the angels only send you into the past if they can see you! A nice tidy explanation for the problematic persistence of Clara in the present.  🙂

    Although The End of Time had lots of moments that I loved, I also found myself feeling manipulated at times. TotD was, as you say, more subtle, and actually more moving for me. I agree that the Doctor’s goodbye to Clara, when he thought he was going off to die, was terrifically sad, and the bow tie drop was so beautifully symbolic. I actually felt that I couldn’t bear to see him go! Also, Matt Smith has the most wonderfully wistful smile, and he used it here to huge effect, as he moved on with both sorrow and joy.

    No enemy could ever fire that shot, no fall from a tower would have felt as anything other than a convenient device.  Yes definitely to this!


    Arbutus @arbutus

    @juniperfish @timeloop

    Brilliant parallel between the writing on this forum and literary criticism. In any kind of mythology, a writer doesn’t have to even try to create layers of meaning. Readers can find them all by themselves! As we do here with Doctor Who. Good writers, well-read themselves, call upon pre-existing tropes and ideas without necessarily setting out to do so. Although any hidden references, connections, or meanings that we can find add loads of extra value, they were not necessarily put there intentionally by the writer. (I have had some English profs who could have used a reminder of this point! I received persistent and irritating B’s for analyses where I refused to agree about the author’s “intent”.)

    Of course, some things are intentional. But I’m not sure that that changes their impact or validity.


    Arbutus @arbutus

    @tennantmarsters2013 @bluesqueakpip

    I love the idea of the rehabilitation of Gallifrey being the Doctor’s actual challenge, rather than just finding it and/or bringing it back. It will be a new approach to Gallifrey story lines, which I think would be needed in light of earlier discussions about the Time Lords and their history. And it could potentially be present as a thread in the background of any story dealing with the Time Lords, without always being front and centre in the plot.

    To cross once more a Sea of Stars,
    And sail the Tides of Time.

    Those lines are perfectly beautiful.


    geoffers @geoffers

    @whisht – i think clara has a “step-mom” now, and isn’t thrilled that her dad has moved on. that woman was so cold and self-centred, that i never for one second thought it was her real mum…

    or, that was her dad’s christmas date…


    Arkleseizure @arkleseizure

    @arbutus (and many others) Re: Doctor numbering.

    The whole point of this is that Doctor is not his real name, which remains unknown. For the sake of argument I will refer to the Time Lord usually known as the Doctor as Theta Sigma (and assume I don’t need to explain why ;))

    The first eight Doctors were also the first eight Theta Sigmas. Captain Grumpy was the ninth Theta Sigma, but not the ninth Doctor. U-Boat Captain was the ninth doctor, but also the tenth Theta Sigma. Sandshoes was the tenth Doctor (and Chinny even called him Number 10 in TTOTD), but managed to be both the eleventh and the twelfth Theta Sigma. Hence Chinny was the eleventh Doctor and the thirteenth Theta Sigma. Kidneys is the twelfth Doctor and the fourteenth Theta Sigma, or possibly Theta Sigma 2.1 (eg the first of the second regeneration cycle).

    I hope that makes everything clear. 🙂

    Arkleseizure @arkleseizure

    By the way, haven’t had time to read all the comments here but has anyone seen the abysmal review of TTOTD at DoctorWhoTV? Why was that deemed worthy of publication?

    OsakaHatter @osakahatter

    @Wisht – seconding @geoffers, I took that to be a step-mum (or potential step-mum).  Rather ties in with the idea raised on here last week of Clara as the fairytale princess, waiting for the hero to ride in and save her*.  From a tower (block).  And a wicked stepmother!


    *Apologies to whoever pointed that out, I can’t find the relevant post at the moment.


    @arkleseizure – bet you can’t say Thirteen Theta Sigmas thirteen times fast!


    deadmeat3171 @deadmeat3171

    Why bring back the regeneration limit when it has been contradicted in a mat smith episode

    The impossible astronaught in which he is shot while regenerating

    I know this turned out to be fake but if that was his last life why did he feel the need to fake a regeneration

    Also didn’t what happen before he regenerated not already happen in

    Let’s kill Hitler when river gave him her regeneration energy

    Also when did the doctor go from his stand of they can’t come back they’d bring loads of evil with them (tenant) tooth go on let them come back there nice.

    Where they all hanging out with the daleks at the end of day of the doctor

    In which by the way he’s told by the 4th doctor he will revisit some of his old faces how would this be possible if he was on his last life I think I may question him about that

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    Given that the Doctor has a rather large number of enemies, I think he might be keen on not letting them know that they could kill him for real this time …

    That almost certainly wasn’t the fourth Doctor (given that his regeneration never reached that age) – it was almost certainly a future Doctor who’d decided to revisit that face. In which case the ‘changing time streams’ rule comes into effect; the younger Doctor (the Smith Doctor) will forget the conversation.

    It’s rather like the War Doctor having a moment of realisation that he didn’t destroy Gallifrey before he has to think that he did. In this case, the Smith Doctor has a moment of realising that he did save Gallifrey and he’s not going to die at Trenzalore – before he has to go off and face his death.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @arkleseizure – Capaldi is forever going to be Kidneys for me from now on (other than that I’m very confused, and tongue’s completely twisted after 1st go at @osakahatter‘s challenge!


    @bluesqueakpip – Also, if it didn’t look like he was starting to regenerate, then his enemies might want a closer look at the body, to make sure they’d actually got him this time.

    deadmeat3171 @deadmeat3171

    Wasn’t that good a secret all the difrent aliens in the fleet new he was on his last regeneration

    As for the forth doctor its not relivent his number its the fact that he was a future doctor

    Plus the doctor who as a code from the time lords to make sure it was safe as only the doctor can answer is stupid

    As 1 he’s not the only one river song for 1 knows and has said it twice

    Or 2 if he is how would the time lords on the other side know

    Just think somebody had an idea and there just trying to hammer it in

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 9 months ago by  deadmeat3171. Reason: typo
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @deadmeat3171  @bluesqueakpip

    I wouldn’t think that Ten’s regeneration into himself would have been widely known, so it would be fair to assume that most people/enemies who knew about the 12-regen limit at all, much less had been keeping track, would still believe him to have at least one left.
    I wonder if, in the Doctor’s brief moment of awareness with his future self, he had time even to process the fact that it meant that, somehow, he would get more regenerations. He certainly seemed more caught up by the survival of Gallifrey than anything else at that moment. I don’t think he was thinking of Trenzalore at all. In any event, as you say, he would immediately forget that conversation once his time-stream separated from Future-Baker-Doctor’s.

    I don’t think that most of the enemies knew anything about it. The Daleks clearly did, but only at the end, after they had accessed knowledge of the Doctor from Tasha Lem. Before that, of course, none of the enemies would remember anything about the Doctor and his many faces, because he had erased himself from history.

    Perhaps the answer the Time Lords were waiting to hear was “The Doctor”. See @juniperfish‘s post above:



    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @deadmeat3171 – ah, but do the Time Lords realise that the Doctor has married again? Or, even if they do, do they realise his dead wife is leading a busy and active afterlife? As far as they know, the only person on this side of the crack who knows his birth name is – the Doctor. (Actually, Clara’s also seen it – but she’s forgotten that she knows it. I don’t know if that hidden knowledge will later turn out to be important).

    The GI, who had access to all available information about the Doctor, clearly didn’t realise that anyone else could access the tomb.

    Incidentally, we now know why the Doctor’s name was the password to the Tomb. It was (supposed to be) locked to everyone except the Time Lords.

    As to ‘how do the Time Lords know it?’ there is, on Gallifrey, a woman who may be his mother (End of Time). There’s also possibly Susan, and possibly his ex-wife (Susan’s grandmother). All of those people might know his name. His wife because it seems to be part of the marriage ceremony, his mother because she probably gave him that name, and Susan because she’s family. 🙂

    nicelyuseless @nicelyuseless

    @scaryb “Capaldi is forever going to be Kidneys for me from now on”

    Your comment made me snort wine through my nose. That is hilarious. (The term ‘Kidneys’, not my disintegrating nasal passages; I take those very seriously).

    nicelyuseless @nicelyuseless

    @arbutus @scaryb I was going to post some grandiose (spell check!) nonsense about how Beethoven’s Fifth couldn’t be renamed if we discovered a new symphony from beforehand, because the Fifth has to be the Fifth, right?

    But that’s all been obviated: Kidneys, Chinny, …, celery lapel, scarfy,… I absolutely love it! But everyone can better those (except for Kidneys. Please call Twelve ‘Kidneys’).

    topperofgallifrey @topperofgallifrey

    I didn’t think that the last half hour of The Time of The Doctor was that good. The first half was brilliant, all the build up to the battle. But then, we hardly see the battle. I prefer The End of Time.

    topperofgallifrey @topperofgallifrey

    @nicelyuseless Kidneys?! Hehe. I don’t that would catch on as well as Chinney or Matchstickman.

    nicelyuseless @nicelyuseless

    @topperofgalifrey I’m sure you’re right, I know you’re right, but ‘Kidneys’ makes me laugh. Can’t help it. And I did take some time to contemplate. Hard to believe, but I did not rush into that post. But I am still recovering from NYE, so….

    Kidneys. Hah!  Sorry, I will hopefully stop posting about Kidneys (snicker). It just gets me.

    Risdat @risdat

    Kidneys is great! Maybe good to use while the numbering isn’t that clear yet..

    FiveRoundsRapid @fiveroundsrapid

    I just found this link from a read through of TToTD and wanted to share it… It’s just had me in bits…

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @besd1 @arbutus (& @osakahatter)

    I think my thoughts on the crack and time passing were simply that

    1. They’ve had time to put a plan to contact the Doctor in motion.
    2. They had time to both receive information, process it and adjust their actions, responding as they did.

    So that does imply some linear passing of time rather than being “frozen” in the moment that the Doctor saves Gallifrey.

    Actually this little revelation is another gift to future scriptwriters in a way. If you say that Time is passing on the other side (rather than in some loop) things will be changing. The resolution of DotD when compared to TEoT would seem to see the largely sane War Council in one place and the largely insane High Council in another.

    If/whenever they get brought back, this way they can come back in a substantially different form. The resolution of those two views of the Time Lords can be written in a pretty succinct piece of dialogue: The Time Lord Civil War, which could be unseen (as was most of the Time War) and leave something very different. After all, if some mad bugger 20 years down the line wanted to bring them back, he doesn’t have to worry about casting, characters or the “baggage” of the Time War Time Lords. In the meantime, it does put an end to the “last of the Time Lords” pathos in the interim as @osakahatter said.

    Energy passing out of the crack and time passing would also seem to be a natural “get-out-of-jail-free” card for The Master, who made a habit of escapology in tricky situations, should anyone want to bring him back.  😀

    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @phaseshift Happy New Year!

    I agree completely that time is (now) passing for the Time Lords in the bubble universe. In the previous reality, when Gallifrey was not in a bubble universe but in a time-lock, then I think they were in a stasis of perpetual war.

    It may be passing at a different speed however. Love the idea that a Time Lord civil war or at least power struggle is probably ongoing there right now. I previously suggested that one faction (led by the Doctor’s mother) may have created Tasha Lem.

    It’s always worth looking at the mini parallels to illuminate the larger themes in Moffat’s Who. Amy’s Choice turned out to be significant in that it showed different versions of the Doctor in different “realities” and lo and hehold that’s eventually what we got in a big way vs a vs the use/ not use of the Moment.

    I think Hide is key to questions about the Time Lords and the bubble universe, as that was all about, in miniature, a bubble universe. Time moved differently there for one thing.

    I think the fact that there was a crack at Trenzalore lends more weight to my theory that Trenzalore is a special place of quantum superposition, because when the Doctor rebooted the universe the cracks disappeared. The fact that one still, paradoxically, exists at Trenzalore suggests a place where the walls between ‘verses in the multiverse are especially thin.

    Going back to Hide, Emma Grayling the empath was able to communicate with the pioneer time traveller Hila Tecorian trapped in the bubble universe because she was a direct descendant and “blood calls to blood”.

    I think Clara’s flirtations with the Doctor are a smoke-screen and given the mystery about River’s connection with Clara which River left the Doctor with and the fact that Clara knew the right word to stir the Doctor’s stumps last Christmas special (“pond”) and the fact that Clara is able to communicate with the Time Lords through the crack  (“blood calls to blood”) I am still betting that Clara turns out to be a Pond (a descendant of River and the Doctor).

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    I’d agree with @phaseshift and @juniperfish that time is passing in Gallifrey’s bubble universe. Going by Hide, it’s probably not passing at the same rate.

    I’d also go with Phaseshift’s idea that there was very likely a Civil War following the end of the Time War: though it may have been short, sharp and conclusive given that the Master was last seen trying to kill the High Council…

    The Doctor could be so convinced that the Gallifreyans now want peace because the High Council was so clearly nuts. Whoever’s now in charge of Gallifrey, they’re willing to wait to come home. They also trust the Doctor. Neither of those things suggest that the High Council faction won.

    Like Juniperfish, I’m still wondering about Clara’s obvious connection with the Doctor. Even though she’s obviously a real person with a real life, she still seems ‘programmed’ to save the Doctor. Descendent? Or somehow designed by the Time Lords?

    As I said somewhere up above; that whole ‘boyfriend’ comedy routine was crafted to show the audience that Clara and the Doctor don’t have a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship – even though they both fancy each other.

    deadmeat3171 @deadmeat3171

    Forgot rule one the doctor lies

    Could it be he did remember he’s going to regenerate

    But maybe not how

    Or perhaps the whole speech was for the time lords benefit like the speech to river in the afore mentioned episode let’s kill hittlerhittler as they where probably listening

    blackthorn @blackthorn

    My first post on here, so don’t shoot me…

    Scrambled brain after reading ALL the posts about the Christmas special!

    For me, I am getting rather fed up with all the Christmas specials having to be Christmassy.   (does this make me Scrooge?  Probably.)  And also with the new craze for bringing in a whole load of monsters just for the sake of it, so we have the Weeping Angels and the Daleks and the Sontarans and the Silence, etc.    Too much!    And not ANOTHER eccentric family, please.

    And one more moan – I don’t like the emotional farewells before regeneration.   David Tennant’s was the worst, which seemed to go on forever.    The Doctor just used to get regenerated and that was that!

    Still, at least we have hopefully seen the last of that wretched bow tie.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @phaseshift  @bluesqueakpip   Yes, I had also thought that some kind of civil dispute on Gallifrey would seem to be the result of what we have been shown. I agree that it might not have lasted long, because most of the Time Lords do not seem to have been as megalomaniacal as the High Council. I hadn’t really thought about it having all happened already, but that does make a lot of sense. Although I still like the idea of the Doctor being involved in the rebellion!

    I’m intrigued by the thought of how the Master might fit into it all. In fact, I’m hopeful that when the Master is inevitably brought back into play, we find that the events of TEoT have left their mark, leading to a more nuanced character, a little more grey in the black. Maybe less of the crazed, vengeful lunatic who hates the Doctor? I’d love to see him as a sometime ally of the Doctor, but a not-completely-trustworthy one, who will tend to put his own best interest first.

    @juniperfish   when the Doctor rebooted the universe the cracks disappeared. The fact that one still, paradoxically, exists at Trenzalore suggests a place where the walls between ‘verses in the multiverse are especially thin.     Good point, this!


    Arbutus @arbutus

    Welcome, @blackthorn!

    While I also didn’t care for Tennant’s long-drawn-out regeneration, I felt that this one did hit the right note (for me, anyway). I like a bit of closure, just don’t overdo it! As to the eccentric families, I’m afraid that we are probably stuck with those, as the trend in AG Who is definitely toward a full family life for the companions. Myself, I don’t mind it, but I prefer it when they stay more in the background. Donna’s family worked well in that respect, we saw them once in a while only. Although, I don’t see that Clara’s family seemed all that eccentric, fairly normal I’d say! I thought that they did the worst job with Martha’s family, as they failed to paint them as likeable in anyway, and we saw way too much of Martha’s mother for me. Ah well, those days are gone.  🙂

    As for the bow tie, I’m guessing that you will get your wish there! (Although I liked it, myself.)

    Whisht @whisht

    In terms of the High Council and War Council being at odds in terms of how to wage a war (as well as wage how to escape the Time Lock) I guess what’s interesting (unless I’m misunderstanding) is that the ‘mad’ High Council choose to communicate to the Master, whereas the War Council reach out to the Doctor.

    If that’s correct, then they needn’t necessarily have resolved their differences – they might still be holed-up in their respective rooms, hatching plans etc.

    But agree – a great gift for future writers!

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @juniperfish @bluesqueakpip @arbutus @whisht

    It’s a great idea for speculation, and I think it’s aspects like “Mother” that makes me think a potential future showrunner could use the idea to accelerate the Time Lords beyond that conflict into new territory.

    Like the Time War, they could have exciting references by a future RTD to events that happened (in a sealing the Medusa Cascade way). The Fall of Rassilon, the Siege of the Death Zone, the 100year rule of the faux Master Emperor, and his fleeing at the N-forms unleashed by The Romana Contingent.

    Then, in a future anniversary, the Doctor could revisit these events, and people will moan that it all sounded so much better in their imaginations and blame whoevers writing the show at that time. ;-). The circle of time!

    It would be interesting to speculate on what may come out of Gallifrey as and when they do come. Would it be good for the Doctor or not, would they see him as a hero or villain, and would they be as powerful, if they’ve gone through the Time War, and had an internal conflict to deplete their resources even more? I think it’s a perfect opportunity to re-invent the remains in a way to something much less isolationist and “all powerful”.

    ScaryB @scaryb


    Then, in a future anniversary, the Doctor could revisit these events, and people will moan that it all sounded so much better in their imaginations and blame whoevers writing the show at that time

    haha, that made me chuckle.

    I agree though, I like how it opens up possibilities for the Time Lords’ story. No saying which side would come out on top ie Rassilon’s group may be smaller (and less united) but I think they have most power/knowledge/megalomania on their side. If the War Council managed to come out on top, then it might very well be a less powerful group of Time Lords who eventually emerge, who either have to relearn some of their old skills, or turn to the Doctor for knowledge. In which case he could be back to being enemy no 1 for them. Lots of possibilities.

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