The Time of The Doctor
27 December 2013 at 18:22 #23492Cath Annabel @cathannabel
@Phase Shift Jammy dodgers, eh? How can I resist. Just starting to jot a few thoughts down now. Don’t tell my PhD supervisors – unless I can think of a way to weave some reference to W G Sebald’s oeuvre into this, I don’t think I can pass it off as part of my ‘real’ research…27 December 2013 at 19:52 #23494
I’d say the Clara/Doctor schtick was an important part of the set-up for the Capaldi Doctor. Because it established that – yeah, Clara fancies him. The Doctor himself is not unwilling. But nothing has happened. He’s definitely – that phonecall establishes – not her boyfriend, they certainly haven’t slept together.
So, Juniperfish, you can still hold out some hope that Clara will somehow turn out to be family. We’ve just established that: 1) Clara fancied the Eleventh Doctor; 2) The Eleventh Doctor was quite happy to be Clara’s boyfriend (once he’d blown the dust off the manual); but 3) somehow, something, some niggling little ‘no’ in the back of both their minds was stopping that relationship ever starting.
Tasha Lem – I think she’s the ’cause’ to River’s ‘effect’. The Doctor clearly flirts like mad with her whenever they meet; he’s visibly attracted. So, when the Kovarian Chapter run off and try and create a bespoke psychopath, they turn River into a copy of the woman the Doctor has the hots for. 🙂27 December 2013 at 20:15 #23495FiveRoundsRapid @fiveroundsrapid
“And of course there’s the bow tie. It was the tying of the tie in The Eleventh Hour that seemed to punctuate Matt’s ‘becoming’ of the Doctor. It was his removal of it in this story that seemed to emphasise that his time was over.”
@jimthefish Brilliant spot that!! I did wonder why we had the slow motion bow tie removal but that makes perfect sense! An incredible bit of symmetry to bookend Matt’s tenure!27 December 2013 at 20:46 #23497curvedspace @curvedspace
Did anyone think the voice bellowing “Doctor Who” sounded like the voice of the Great Intelligence?
I’ve got to rewatch the episode. On first viewing it felt rushed to me, like too many gags got crammed in there. Really liked the last 15 minutes or so, however, and thought that Matt hit all of his marks.27 December 2013 at 22:24 #23498shashank @shashank
thanks all, for the different versions for my ‘why is capaldi there?’ .. im a little better now 😛 –
here’s some thoughts on other stuff
**the presence of amelia pond – it makes complete sense for her to be there! yes there is the part about the first face thing. but think about how much this companion affected the doctor as well. to list –
technically – ‘Fails’ or is unable to save or retrieve her daughter. the same daughter who is used as a weapon against the doctor – but saves her later when she is a grown woman. Marries amy’s daughter, who becomes the most important person to ‘this’ face (he tells her his name).
Amelia is his mother in law.
At least in Moffat’s version – Amy is the only girl he is unable to ‘save’ or is the only companion who left HIM than the other way around. Amy’s *ending* is something he witnessed (forced). And we know how he hates endings, yet he couldnt do anything about it. .. ‘raggedy man – *goodbye*.’ ….(we wont ever see each other again) consider his regret, and just the pure want to see her – which is why he imagines her to be his side.
and her saying ‘raggedy man – goodnight..’ was just .. too much in that moment for me.
and they had to add the bow tie .. why not just have him suit up like he usually does (lets kill hitler??)… that would have really done it.. maybe add something like “i hope he still likes my fez”..
capaldi in the day of the doctor
it does make sense if the doctor(s) wasn’t aware of the count, and only the time lords could see the actual number of TARDISes .. but, seems highly odd for an extra TARDIS to be flying around in sync and unnoticed by 12 other doctors. but, something happened.. im going to take the timey wimey memory lapse for the time being.
the doctor has had amnesia before- after he regenerates. various reasons. but all pointing towards a bad management of the regen energy – .. the energy can be used destructively or can be controlled – we know that – and he blew up a dalek mother ship with this one. (that was quite rash) – so im thinking his temporary memory loss/ amnesia is just a part of that
OR, just because maybe this new doctor (first face thing) has a stronger or will have a stronger attachment to Clara – and since Clara pretty much has saved the doctor countless times, in all his lives, and proven (to me atleast) to be just extra-ordinary.
because come to think of it – Clara has successfully gained knowledge about the doctor no one has or a few people have- and has forgotten all about it due to the timey wimey stuff, and also due to the doctor erasing her memory. I mean, she’s forgotten more about the doctor than anyone will ever know. (Very well written companion)
He just wants her to be able to fly the Tardis, and he will teach her that .. right now..( and she also has a fun fiesty relationship with the TARDIS -minisode).
Trenzalore – I dont see why this is invalid or has to change – the doctor knows it’s his timeline, but he can’t see the *end* – he knows it’s going to be his grave (fixed point), but it doesn’t make it ‘this face’s’ grave. the doctor will still die one day, maybe he comes back to christmas – the only place he stayed (yet). Seems fitting. The grave of a warrior at his ‘home’ or on his greatest battlefield. 500 years.. that’s quite a war. (the pandorica is a part of this war I believe)
phew.. thanks for reading :] i love the conversation here27 December 2013 at 22:54 #23499d12345 @d12345
Hello to everyone ,i wish happy cristmas to you all and your loved ones.
After watching the 50th and cristmas special here are some of my opinions
We were all promised the best episode of doctor who modern history (tdotd first of all) and we have been promised that all the most important questions will be resolved
1. Doctor whos real name and the dangerous future after that
2. Time war and j.hurts doctor promised all sorts of unespected surprises , j .hurts mistery indentity , the unknown past of the time war with epic confrontacion with daleks or an other enemy , relevant connections with some companions from the past having a connection with the time war …
3. Explanation of the silence and great inteligence
4. Resolution of the regeneration rules
5. River song ??
6. Trenzelore and its meaning
7. Cracks in the wall and what happened when matt smith rebooted the universe , destruction of many tardisis
And so on…
Now lets begin , we didnt found out the doctors name even thougt this was forsed by moffat for a long time , in the end no name and nothing going about this matter at all.
The time war and j.hurt , pih I was expecting fireworks , and i got tenant playing around with a zygon princes , totally unrelevant to the story , one hour of nothing and then 5min with the read button . Very poor writing by moffat .I am sorry i am coming back to this but this two episodes were made to be as one and to resove all the questions so.
Why would the doctor want and take eternal life , when he had plenty regenerations left and plenty of time to take the enemy down ? a poor solution for hurts character
The gallifrey was destroyed in the past , if that isnt a fixed point in time that cant be changed , i dont know what is .Throught the whole series this is the rule , small things can change , but strong events with lots of people dying is a fixed point in time and cant be changed . Poor solution for the time war
The silence , finnaly a question answered , but we were all expecting that solution , so this was lacking the moment of unexpected ,also the silence was here for 2-3 seasons so it is natural to expect more connections and actions of the silence in the past beeing explained in this episode.nothing intersting here.great inteligence nothing
Regeneration rule – the most important question for the whole series , and it is resolved like it has been written by an 14year old boy writting his homework .I have an feeling that moffat is making fun of this series , on purpose or not i dont know.But to resolve this so sencitive and important rule in a matter the sky opened and the light came , come on that is either a very very poor lazy writting or making fun of fans on purpose.Becouse moffat is a very inteligent man,so i just cant belive that he was thinking the sky will open and give him extra regenerations and thats gonna be great.After clara politely asks them but not giving the name they help after 300y,thats just riddicious.and where were all those enemies for 300y , were they all on a 300y holiday??
River song , i expected that clara and rose or amy maybe revealed as rivers regenerations , now maybe the plan is that that women from the silence will be river , so rivers answer isnt still answered, even thougt she is around for 3-4 seasons.will we found out about river after 5 seasons , cmon thats way to long for a plot of the story.or even worse that women isnt river and rivers question isnt answered at all.
Meaning of trenzelore , nothing there so intriging , a planet where he waits to die , after that mysteryous things in tdotd this was a big nothing
Cracks in the wall , going on for a few seasons , with amy , then clara , cracks that will define the future of the doctor and the whole universe. moffat solution – a light in the sky came and thats that
Main problems is the lack of …trying to find the word,the lack of everyting, the lack of main villain and his evil plan , the plot of the story going nowhere , tenant playing in the woods , smith growing old in a village doing nothing for 300y?? enemys appear for one minute then go away having no connection to the plot of the story,unrelated storys are making this series boring , and leading up to a point where there are no mysteries left,and those few solved give a half convincing finale .Ok we can make a story doctor versus doctor but make it interesting and not m smiths crazy and brilliant doctor doing nothing for 300y cmon.
And now two positive things , very powerfull and beatiful human emotions that are a trade mark of doctor who (on cristmas this works expecially well off course) and i must say matt smith , man that guy can act , he is full of carizma and pozitive playfull energy,but energetic and passionate when needed . a crazy old man in a young body,a preformance of higest quality.
maybe it will be better when capaldi arives,althougt moffat sould leave and let someone else write becouse this isnt going anywhere, i was a big fan of moden doctor who, seasons 5 ,6 were brilliant .Season 7 was a decline , and now this is a total disaster,i know you will all disagree with me becouse you love the figure of the doctor too much , to admit some things , but the fact is the quality is going down all the time.
This was my viewing of the last two episodes so i hope the moderators wont mind i was writting about tdod also
Merry cristmas again ans sorry for my spelling mistakes . cheers28 December 2013 at 01:01 #23500
we didnt found out the doctors name
Errr… yes, we did. After over a thousand years of journeying, from Gallifrey to Trenzalore, his real name is ‘The Doctor’. That’s the one that defines the ‘who’ in ‘Doctor Who?’ He’s The Doctor, the man who makes things better, the man whose job is saving lives. It may have been a mask, a disguise, back when he put it on. But now it’s his real, true, self.
I was expecting fireworks , and i got tenant playing around with a zygon princes
Actually, you got Tennant playing around with Queen Elizabeth I and the point was that she wasn’t a Zygon. For further details, http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/sidrat/the-day-of-the-doctor-a-time-structure-analysis/
Why would the doctor want and take eternal life , when he had plenty regenerations left and plenty of time to take the enemy down ?
Sorry, you’re going to have to repeat that one. No mention was made of eternal life. The Time War had reached the point where the Daleks and the Time Lords were fighting hand-to-sink-plunger in the streets of Gallifrey, the High Council had gone nuts and there was a very real danger the entire universe was going to go up in a burst of light (End of Time). The Hurt Doctor decided to end it by destroying Gallifrey and the Dalek armies surrounding it.
that isnt a fixed point in time that cant be changed , i dont know what is .Throught the whole series this is the rule , small things can change , but strong events with lots of people dying is a fixed point in time and cant be changed .
As well as the above blog post, I’ll refer you to: http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/sidrat/wibbley-wobbly-timey-wimey/#more-14172
where were all those enemies for 300y
Where were you? Were you nipping out for a cup of tea? Were your family talking over the final scenes? Were you trying to watch it on your iPhone? Texting your mates? What? Because you seem to have missed several attacks, a couple of voiceovers, Tasha turning into a Dalek (and back again) and an entire burning village.
the sky opened and the light came
I suppose they could have sent him a post card…
If you don’t like the Time Lords giving a big two fingered salute to the Daleks, just blame the bolt of regeneration energy on their over-developed sense of the dramatic. They have terrible dress sense as well. 🙂
It’s quite surprising how many people have complained about Clara asking the Time Lords for a favour and their granting it. It’s a genuine case of people’s idea of dramatic convention trumping over their real-life experience. Because in real life, the normal response to ‘Can I ask you a favour?’ is ‘yeah, sure’. Equally, a normal response to someone having a heart attack is to grab the nearby defibrillator.
In this case, the one contact that the Gallifreyans have with their home universe is about to die. Letting that happen would be frankly stupid.
will we found out about river after 5 seasons
She’s the daughter of Rory Williams and Amy Pond, mutated into part-Time-Lord by exposure to the time vortex while in her mother’s womb. She was kidnapped and brought up by the Kovarian faction to be the Doctor’s assassin. She was married to the Doctor, a Professor of Archaeology and died saving the Doctor’s life on The Library. What else do you need to know?
nothing there so intriging
The Great Intelligence did warn you. ‘A minor skirmish’, he called it. ‘In the end, it was simply too much for the old man.’
the lack of main villain and his evil plan
You’re quite correct. There is no main villain, and there is no evil plan. I’m sorry if that disappoints you, but there is absolutely no need for there to be one. There have been many, many stories in Doctor Who over the years where the antagonist was what you might loosely refer to as ‘the forces of nature’. In this case, The Name of The Doctor, The Day of The Doctor and The Time of The Doctor form a trilogy. The central question of that trilogy is: ‘Doctor Who?’
Not in the sense of ‘what are the syllables that make up his original Gallifreyan name’, but in the sense of ‘What does the name The Doctor represent? Did the man behind the name always live up to what it represents? Can he, in the end, simply be ‘The Doctor’?’
If you want a main ‘villain’ for The Doctor Trilogy, it’s the Doctor himself. He’s fighting himself, throughout. The standard Who villains are just sideshows; the main story is the Doctor’s fight to finally stop running away. He’s spent his whole life running; this is where he stops.
Act One: he stops running away from himself. Act Two: he stops running away from what he’s done. Act Three: he stops running away from death.
And it’s because he stops running away that he becomes immortal.
Sorry you didn’t like it.28 December 2013 at 02:29 #23502Anonymous @
@bluesqueakpip you did a thoroughly good job replying to that one. Frankly, as I was reading the long criticism of the ‘trilogy’, I recognised your absolute patience, because, really, it seemed as if the poster was maybe a tr***? 🙁
Admittedly on other sites I’ve glanced at, the problem identified has been the doctor growing old and the Time Lords agreeing to help him. To me, this hasn’t been done before (in recent Who history) and it was a prefect finish for a Doctor who generally never hangs about for too long. Nonetheless, we know he’d never ask for help for himself: in this incarnation he has been modest and circumspect-something we’d appreciate all doctors to be!
I was talking, yesterday, to some children between the ages of 10 and 14 and they loved the show. This says to me: “huge success”. They loved the fact he played with the children -maybe even teaching them blind man’s bluff? The fact he fixed their toys, adding anti-grav wheels (reminded me of BofSaintJ) and teaching them the giraffe dance. Funnily enough, all these kids I spoke to, remembered Amy’s wedding, the dancing, the fact he arrives late and only participates in the ‘fun part’. They liked him getting old, carrying a walking stick because it ‘made him seem more human’. I actually thought the Weeping Angels were a good reminder after all the times they’ve inserted themselves into the past few seasons and were, in the end, the way Amy and Rory were separated from the Doctor and River. To me a town called Christmas, at the time of Christmas was a reminder of the simplicity of this season: not the commercialism but the need to be (cordial) with family, to share food and to dance. Boy, does the dr dance…28 December 2013 at 03:49 #23503Anonymous @
@jimthefish I liked your analyses -as always. It was a ‘refreshing aging’ wasn’t it? As you said, better than 10s in tLotTL. I liked how there were distinct and happy similarities between Eccleston’s Dr, Tennant’s Dr, Mat’s Dr -perhaps the earlier doctors too: the ‘sort of’ snogging of, or attraction to, Tasha Lem; the library comparisons with the Papal Mainframe; the taking back of companions to their home (as either a private promise or one specifically made to parents -as in the case of Rose, by both Tennant and Eccleston); visiting for Christmas dinner; ‘Handles’ as a computer/pet like K9; the positioning of the clock tower as in the Eccleston episode, The Empty Child.
But in the end a very cyclic episode which went right back to where we started, as @bluesqueakpip had mentioned (from 13 to 00 ) in The 11th Hour. I don’t know if any writer would have the right lustre and confidence, like Moffat, to connect everything over several years and provide us with more than satisfactory answers to out questions -if not quite the Bonker’s ones we might wish for. 🙂
kindest, purofilion28 December 2013 at 07:19 #23505GothamCelt @gothamcelt
Going back to Tasha Lem. Did she pass something to the doctor? Look at the unusual camera angle as the Doctor sits on the bed/altar. She gives him a goblet/chalice, from which he swigs. Tasha Lem then takes the goblet/chalice and passes very close to his face as she stretches to place it on the end of the bed/altar. The camera angle is almost directly behind her so her head is blocking his face. Does she kiss him and, in doing so, pass sosmething in to his mouth? Why the goblet? Why does he drink so readily? Why the strange camera angle? And another thing, why emphasise that Tasha Lem is an old friend? AsI suggested before, Tasha Lem is an anagram of The Lamas. As some-one pointed out earlier, the part wes very well defined and very well acted. I think we will see Tasha Lem in the next series, possibly as a reincarnation of herself. Mind you, I thought the same about The Doctor’s Wife28 December 2013 at 07:37 #23507Anonymous @
@gothamcelt I hope we do see Tasha Lem again – a forceful character, well acted, but I needed her to have more air time so I’d feel more involved with her? I’ll have to watch for the 3rd time to notice your scene there! 🙂
kindest, purofilion28 December 2013 at 10:05 #23509Anonymous @
Can’t work out Tasha but reverse Lem and you have Mel, the physcopath in Let’s Kill Hitler. Any thoughts, especially from bluepipsqueak?28 December 2013 at 10:06 #23510Anonymous @
Should have read bluesqueakpip, apologies28 December 2013 at 11:15 #23511
Finally, just managed to do a rewatch (feckin catchup TV – no sign of TotD – how do they expect to get the rewatch figs up when you can’t rewatch!)
😥 <grabs another box of tissues> 😥
I’m just a big blob of mush! Got me from Clara’s Gran’s story about wanting time to stand still (till the end!). I like Clara’s Gran. Her dad and step-mum were a bit 1D*, but she nailed it in 2 lines and a couple of twinkly looks!
@bluesqueakpip – masterful analysis as ever – have you and Moffat ever been seen in the same room at the same time?! 🙂
@jimthefish – Agree – watching the bow tie drop was a lovely touch (a red one, I notice)
@gothamcelt – yes he drinks, but spits it straight back into the glass again – maybe it’s a Papal Mainframe custom, like wine-tasting
@RTDfan – while I agree there are a lot of similarities between Tasha and River, the River in LKH was Mels (rather than Mel) – which leaves an awful lot of As for an anagram. I’m more interested in the fact she could fly the TARDIS. Certainly the Doctor gave her the key (he gave her the key!!) but it’s implied this wasn’t her first time. But the TARDIS must have liked/trusted her.
Overall it felt like a requiem for Matt’s time as Eleven – all his enemies, and Amy. It establishes the Doctor’s character very strongly, even in this apparently most flighty of Doctors. Given the choice, he stays. For what, maybe 500 years? That makes Eleven’s body pushing 1,000. I thought it was lovely that for once it’s the companion (sorry, associate!), not the Doctor, who stays young while he ages dramatically, but naturally – it’s not something he can be “rescued” from. (I mentioned it before, but I loved the references to Hartnell – the hair, the grumpiness, the stick, the idea of wearing a bit thin (ie ageing)).
He can’t change his own future because he’s part of it. But mainly he’s seizing control of his future by continuing to do what he can – to defend, entertain, and save the children – till he finally drops. He’s not looking for special favours to escape death. But when he’s given the new cycle he’s delighted – not because he’s escaped death, but because he can defeat the Daleks and restore peace to Trenzalore, he knows for sure that the TimeLords are alive and functioning – and he’s got a new lease of life through them making a massive rule break. .
As it’s Christmas and Matt’s last I feel charitable towards the, to be frank, shit aim of the cybermen, daleks etc throughout 😉 Why was Clara not zapped back in time by the Angel when it grabbed her ankle? (Does the hologram circuit (yes, sorry, caught up on that one now, thought it was the people who were holograms, not the clothing) also protect against Angel contact?)
And the name of the Doctor? It’s the Doctor. Just the Doctor, NOT Doctor Who! 😉
*Talking about 1D, had a chuckle at Clara’s comment about boy-bands, given 1D’s attempts at piggy-backing on the Doctor’s PR28 December 2013 at 11:27 #23512
Apologies for last post length… this one’s definitely shorter.
Random thoughts/things that made me smile –
Handles – couldn’t quite make out the dialogue, but did the Doctor say he found it in the Maldovar market? (@FatManinaBox – your dept, I think)
Tasha Lem is the Doctor’s secret supplier of marshmallows 🙂
The Doctor’s comment about the Daleks taking so long to say anything that he’ll die of boredom first (before they shoot)
The Field of Trenzalore is a Truth Field (And thanks to @bluesqueakpip for reminding me of the full statement from the GI – “the old man” takes on so much more resonance after part 3 (TotD))
Loved all the callouts to Eleventh Hour (listed by others above)
The TARDIS can be activated remotely
The thought that both Matt and Karen having shaved heads might have initiated the “wig” gags28 December 2013 at 12:20 #23516
Not sure if this has been noted yet but – now we know what was in the Doctor’s Room in the God Complex. The Crack.28 December 2013 at 12:25 #23517
@juniperfish – I’ve just realised your ‘two Doctors’ theory was right all along.
Except, the ‘two Doctors’ are caused by the same kind of time-loop seen in The Big Bang, where we apparently have two Sonics (same sonic, but at two different points in its personal time-line).
Throughout Eleven’s run, there’ve been ‘two Doctors’. One: the post-return-of-Gallifrey Doctor who’s on Trenzalore throughout all these events, without his TARDIS, fighting a siege. Doctor Two: ‘the Doctor in the TARDIS’ – the pre-return-of-Gallifrey Doctor. Who doesn’t know.28 December 2013 at 12:50 #23518Anonymous @
Handles – couldn’t quite make out the dialogue, but did the Doctor say he found it in the Maldovar market?
@scaryb – Yep, Handles was ‘acquired’ at the market. In fact, he was the previous occupant of my box. He left a few bits and pieces behind after I forcibly evicted him (my need was greater) which I then had implanted in my head, hence the great Wi-Fi reception 😀28 December 2013 at 13:48 #23519
Throughout Eleven’s run, there’ve been ‘two Doctors’. One: the post-return-of-Gallifrey Doctor who’s on Trenzalore throughout all these events, without his TARDIS, fighting a siege. Doctor Two: ‘the Doctor in the TARDIS’ – the pre-return-of-Gallifrey Doctor. Who doesn’t know.
That’s a very intriguing idea.
Are you thinking that 1 of the 2 crashing TARDISes might have been the one in TotD which went AWOL for 300 years…? (Same TARDIS, different points in its timeline).
So… are the 300 years Eleven spends saving Trenzalore children, contemporaneous with the 300 years he takes to experience series 5, 6, 7? (ages 900 – 1200 (approx)).
Whooah…. need to lie down in dark room before I think about this some more. Head splodin stuff! 😀
@fatmaninabox – Glad to see you’re recycling 😉28 December 2013 at 13:56 #23520doctorwhybother @doctorwhybother
Does anyone know the piece of music that was played when the crack appeared to give him the new regeneration cycle? I know what it is but can’t for the life of me rememeber28 December 2013 at 14:46 #23521Craig @craigEmperor
Hi all, am finally back at keyboard and have had a chance to rewatch.
I thought it was good but frustrating because it was packed full of ideas, many of which did not have enough time to breathe. It felt a bit rushed and I think it could have been fantastic if it had been half an hour, or even fifteen minutes, longer. I’d rather complain about that though, than complain it was boring and nothing happened.
Moffat seems to have had a bit of a formula for these last few episodes, introducing the Doctor as a bit of a buffoon with some some farce and slapstick before things get serious – letting the kids trick him into playing Blind Man’s Bluff in NotD so they can go to the cinema, hanging from a helicopter over London in DotD, and now all sorts of buffoonery from landing on a spaceship with a seriously wrong piece of hardware in your hand, twice, to turning up naked to Christmas dinner.
Maybe I’m getting more curmudgeonly as I get older but I’m not sure I like it that much, he’s cleverer than that (can he not recognise the inside of a Dalek ship, as I did, or one of the Cyber fleet?). However, I’m sure the kids love it and that is probably the point. Get them hooked, laughing and enjoying it before the darker, more adult stuff starts to happen.
And this was pretty adult, as @blenkinsopthebrave said, it was about facing up to your own and your loved ones’ mortality. “Everything ends, Clara”.
It was a masterstroke to have the Doctor age to death this time, rather than kill him off with a deadly dose of radiation or a fall. Those always felt like plot devices, but no one can escape old age, not even the Doctor.
I liked Handles. It WAS very Wilson/K9 and it showed the Doctor really does always need a companion of sorts, even if it’s just so he has someone to talk to. Handles’ end was quite touching. The defeat of the wooden Cyberman was also great fun, shot like a (very quick) Leone western standoff, with lots of close ups of hands and eyes.
The tying up of loose ends was also reasonably satisfying, if a bit rushed. “Silence will fall when the question is asked”, the Silents, Madame Kovarian and her war against the Doctor all now make some sort of sense. Shame they called Kovarian’s failure “The Destiny Trap” and not the Blinovitch Limitation Effect though. 😀
The dialogue taking us into the third act, revealing that Tasha and the rest of her ship had been taken over by Daleks, was great writing and underplayed brilliance. I didn’t like the Doctor planting one on Tasha right after though. It seemed a moment written by Moffat to, I thought, apologise for the Jenny kiss in The Crimson Horror. “Kiss me when I ask!”. But there was no real outrage from Tasha, only a flirty smile, so I felt it just perpetuated the problem. Let’s hope Capaldi stays away from kissing people.
There were a few things that didn’t seem to make sense. Why could the Doctor or the TARDIS not recognise the message was Gallifreyan but Handles could using the TARDIS data banks? The Angels managed to get through the shield and there were loads of them, but after the Doctor and Clara escaped from them in the TARDIS we only saw one again, trapped by the Doctor using a mirror. And the Truth Field didn’t always seem to work. “I’ve got a plan” to the boy, followed by “I haven’t got a plan” to Clara.
Those slight grumps aside, I did think it was a good episode and a very fine send off for Matt. He really got to exercise his acting chops and I thought he did a brilliant job. And his end was more joyous than sad.
Can’t wait for Capaldi’s take now. Glad he’s got a Scottish accent.28 December 2013 at 15:06 #23522
@phaseshift “It does seem to suggest that the Time Lords (and Doctors) fears about them being frozen in that moment in an alternative Universe were unfounded. Time seems to play out at some pace on the other side.” Or is the question looped over again because the Time Lords are frozen in a discrete slice of time during which they can act (to find the crack, send the message, deliver regeneration energy etc) but cannot escape without an exit route.28 December 2013 at 15:14 #23524
“She’s a psychopath, loves the Doctor, lives in a mainframe” – ooh now, I was utterly convinced Tasha and River couldn’t be one and the same right up to there. Are you suggesting that the Papal Mainframe is descended from CAL in some sense (an app perhaps?)?28 December 2013 at 15:32 #23525WhoGirl @whogirl
I enjoyed this episode, and like some of you I had to watch it twice to really digest it.
It was good to see some of the threads tied up, and things finally clicking into place. Dorian’s ‘Fall of the Eleventh’ speech makes complete sense now. I liked the fact he was on Trenzalore which was also Christmas, and he grew old gracefully. My sister and I agreed though that his goodbye seemed a little rushed. I loved the goodbye from Amy, that was a nice touch. And when the bow tie hit the ground I was in pieces! David’s last episode had such a build up, but Matt’s seemed to happen very quickly.
As much as I will miss Matt Smith, I am looking forward to seeing what Peter Capaldi will do.28 December 2013 at 16:40 #2352928 December 2013 at 17:39 #23533
i thoroughly enjoyed it especially when Clara was roping him in to help with the Christmas dinner. Although when her nan was talking bout her grandad to me it sounded like she was describing the doctor…
im im glad I was right about the silence ending up being the good guys28 December 2013 at 19:13 #23541Cath Annabel @cathannabel
when her nan was talking bout her grandad to me it sounded like she was describing the doctor…
You don’t think… noooooo. Surely not. But …
In all the genealogical speculation when Clara first appeared, were we looking at the wrong generation?28 December 2013 at 20:55 #23547
it probably isn’t the case but I highly suspect she knows Hun in some way other than through clara28 December 2013 at 21:42 #23549
Also the voice saying doctor who I suspect is peter capaldi what do you guys think?28 December 2013 at 22:17 #23553
It would also have been cooler if he actually changed into capaldi at the clock tower and no in the tardis…28 December 2013 at 22:55 #23558Juniperfish @juniperfish
Right <hastily swallows a Christmas fish-biscuit> back to Trenzalore and Tasha Lem.
The most interesting parts of Moffat’s Who sometimes do seem to happen off-screen in the under-realms of speculation.
Did I mention I am still The Grinch when it comes to Who Christmas episodes? 🙂
I’ve been thinking about Trenza Lore – trenza means “braid” in Spanish. Did you know that braided matrices and braided linear algebra are part of quantum theory mathematics?
This ties in with the fact that the Doctor was reading a book on Advanced Quantum Mechanics in the preceding episode, The Day of the Doctor – a book embossed with the image of The TARDIS.
Trenza Lore (the lore of the braid) is a place of quantum superposition, where simultaneous possibilities exist in the multiverse. Gallifrey, in its bubble universe, is simultaneously present and not-present. It is pressing against the skin of the universe it has been banished from at Trenzalore, through a crack caused by the explosion of one of its own time-machines, the Doctor’s TARDIS. And the TARDIS always takes the Doctor where he needs to go.
Trenzalore is rather like one of the earth poles, it has very short daylight hours – in other words, it is a shadow realm, and one where one must speak the truth. In the Eqyptian underworld, Duat, the soul is judged. It must pass through a series of gates guarded by monstrous beings (in this case Weeping Angels, Daleks, Cybermen, Silence etc.) until it reaches the ritual of the weighing of the heart. In this ritual, the gods weigh the actions of the deceased and if they are found worthy, the person proceeds to the afterlife.
At Trenzalore, the Doctor’s heart is weighed by his god-people, the Time Lords.
Remember that in Hide, the empath Emma Grayling warned Clara that the Doctor had a sliver of ice in his heart? That was the heart(s) of the Eleven descended from The War Doctor who burned Gallifrey. The heart(s) of the Eleven descended from The War Doctor who did not burn Gallifrey (and of course they are the same Doctor, they just made different choices, which changed them) chose to take the slow path (something we know he finds really, really difficult) in order to save the people of Trenzalore.
The message coming through the crack from Gallifrey, “Doctor Who?” is not, therefore, simply asking for the Doctor to give his name as a password which will tell the Time Lords it is safe to come through.
It is a question of judgement, a weighing of the hearts.
The Time Lords, being a canny people, likely know what we know now, in their bubble universe. They know that the Doctor burned Gallifrey, and did not burn it. “Doctor Who?” is their question, about the man who remains after these events. Is he heir to the War Doctor who used the Moment, or heir to the War Doctor who did not? Both exist, for them, in quantum superposition.
The Doctor proves to them, by his patient vigil on Trenzalore and in particular his care for the children there (no accident, given the focus on the deaths of the children of Gallifrey which the Doctor caused by the use of the Moment in The Day of the Doctor) that he has removed the sliver of ice from his hearts. Clara proves it to them also, because she is young and she speaks to them about the Doctor with love. Moreover she tells them that his name is “The Doctor” – in other words he has reclaimed the name of healer which he renounced when he decided to use the Moment.
And so, the Doctor’s hearts are weighed and found worthy. He is forgiven and he passes to the afterlife. He is granted a new set of regenerations and in so granting, the Time Lords also re-learn compassion.
@bluesqueakpip – therefore, absolutely! “There were always two Doctors” – one Eleven who burned Gallifrey and one who didn’t.
As for Tasha Lem, the fact she can fly the TARDIS and that the Doctor is willing to surrender a TARDIS key to her is pretty intriguing. I love the idea of her as a River reincarnation.
Her name is an anagram of Mels Taha . Ta Ha is a sura (verse) of the Qu’ran http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta-Ha w,hich “employs a ring structure” (Moffat’s now famed loops of time) and contains an account of the day of judgement.
I really like the idea that Moffat has combined a feminised Catholicism (the Papal Mainframe) with a reference to a sacred verse from the Qur’an, at a point of reconciliation – the attempt to create peace in the universe in the aftermath of the Time War.
To be honest, I like that a whole lot more than Clara’s “boyfriend” cooking a turkey in the time vortex (some might, unkindly, say, a metaphor for the episode!).
I might have preferred a somewhat different send-off for Smithy, but I salute him. His Eleventh was a mad-cap lightening bolt of physical comedy shot through with consummate flashes of darkness. Oh how I will miss the bow-ties!28 December 2013 at 23:48 #23567Anonymous @
@juniperfish that was a terrific analysis. I studied Ancient History at uni for a short time (and now I occasionally teach Greek and Roman History) but not really Egypt in any detail. But yes, of course, it makes sense to see this episode as equivalent to the ‘weighing of the hearts’, where one’s sins were accounted for without anything but the truth. The idea that good actions were weighed against bad is relevant to the Doctor for he too is often considering his own vanity and remembering those around him, who, for whatever reason, lost their lives.
I liked your connection with the Qu’ran -in a time of our concerns and questions (and conflagrations) about Christianity and Islam, it asks us to remember peace as the most important element within life, cleverly intertwined, like the braid you referenced, into a TV show. Just how far as Doctor Who come in the last 50 years?
From a children’s show to family show from which much discourse flows! 🙂 Kindest, purofilion28 December 2013 at 23:53 #23568
@wolfweed – thanks a mill – it makes 100% sense now, and I shall be practicing in my bedroom 😉 (Is that one of yours or scavenged on t’interwebz?)
the silence ending up being the good guys
You did indeed call that, kudos to you. I agree that in some ways it would have been cool for Matt to change to Capaldi on the tower, but as I said earlier, it felt much better for Matt to have a proper goodbye scene. And what a scene! It would have been hard for Capaldi to come in cold on that one, and Matt earned it for all his work since the Eleventh Hour. There is a precedent for the “reset mode/delayed change” in Tennant’s regeneration (second time 😉 ) and at least Matt had a very short one.
I love the scenes with Clara’s nan, but I don’t think it’s meant to imply a family connection with the Doctor (tho you never know!). She’s dismissed by the rest of the family, yet she’s the one who connects instinctively with what Clara is feeling – she ignores her son’s pleas to tell the story of “the pigeon” and instead tells the story that Clara needs to hear. There’s a wealth of feeling and life experience in the moment when she touches her wedding ring as she thinks back to the first time she saw the man who gave it to her.
(Sorry, got grit in my eye again!! (or maybe @Junipefish’s space glitter!))
😥29 December 2013 at 00:00 #23569Anonymous @
@scaryb — I agree that they got the regeneration just right and it seemed to me almost to be gently scolding the RTD/Tennant one for its tantrummy vanity and excess, with Matt being much more resigned, accepting and, well, happy to go and frankly being the better man for it.29 December 2013 at 00:31 #23570
I am completely in awe of you both!
And delighted that the Egyptian myths, dual timestreams and rebirth into a new cycle theories have made it through.(I’m also delighted that we (haha – royal “we” is great) continue to more than live up to our collective strapline. And yet… both of you hook your theories so strongly on in-episode evidence)
It’s the Doctor’s action in making Clara stay behind, to keep her safe, “for one last victory,” which initiates the events that ultimately lead to his being “saved”. I don’t think it’s coincidence, or just down to cost-saving that a lot of the war scenes on Trenzalore resemble similar scenes on Gallifrey (in TDotD). Although I’m rather more in @phaseshift‘s camp of being suspicious of the TimeLords’ motives.
Just thinking further about BSP’s timeloop theory – there is certainly a LOT of time unaccounted for onscreen. The TARDIS is on her own (with Clara as hitchhiker) for approx 300 years). But then there is also enough time for Matt to grow to (Hartnellish) white haired old age, when he does have access to the TARDIS. Who knows what he gets up to then. (Apart from it making space for Matt’s pension plan!)
@Purofilion The Doctor has been carrying a huge burden with him since the 2005 reboot. He’s questioned all his actions and motives. He’s used being hyper, and always running towards the next big thing, as an excuse not to settle or commit. Until finally, at Trenzalore he stops running and does both. He’s not embracing death or rushing towards it, but he’s not trying to escape it either. He allows himself to just grow old (and up), while making himself an integral and useful part of the community. He fixes things. And makes them better – the antigrav wheels and the barn which is bigger on the inside suggest he still has access to tech (thro the TARDIS?).
By the end of this episode we have a Doctor at the beginning of a new cycle (who paradoxically looks as old as the first one of the first cycle! (Brain of Morbius knocked out the park then?). Is this a Timelord “thing”? Who may or may not remember his first 13 incarnations. Who is the last of his race (but only in this universe), and is now the hope of his people, rather than their nemesis. He is very definitely The Doctor, not the Warrior.
Further question re Tasha Lem – why doesn’t she age? (I don’t believe in it either, but just thinking that isn’t having any effect!!)29 December 2013 at 00:40 #23571
Matt being much more resigned, accepting and, well, happy to go and frankly being the better man for it.
That’s because he is now reconciled with his past self’s behaviour. Tennant was still in the middle of trying to deal with the consequences of what he remembered he’d done as Hurt Dr. Eleven acknowledges “Capt Grumpy” as a true incarnation of himself (his speech about remembering (and admitting to/forgiving) all the people we’ve been), he also acknowledges 10’s cheat (“I had vanity issues”), and admits he is no 13. He embraces old age as a life stage – he’s less manic but as you say, better for it at this point. Instead of keeping the little boy waiting as he did with Amy, this Doctor sticks around – or at least comes back before the boy has grown too much older.29 December 2013 at 00:48 #23572Anonymous @
@scaryb — nicely put. And it’s only now just struck me that Tennant has kind of made history by being both the 11th and 12th Doctors according to the new chronology.29 December 2013 at 01:02 #23573Juniperfish @juniperfish
But can anyone identify the paintings that surround Tasha Lem’s altar/ bed?
I’m wondering whether they are from Michael Angelo’s Last Judgement (Sistene Chapel) which would be neat!
If Tasha Lem is River, it would be a fitting role reversal at the end.
On Trenzalore the Doctor is, effectively, in prison (certainly for a time traveller, being stuck in one location = prison) although he has voluntarily chosen to be there, just as River agreed to be in the Stormcage.
Tasha Lem arranges visits with the Doctor and brings him marshmallows and good company, just as the Doctor visited River in the Stormcage…29 December 2013 at 06:09 #23576The Krynoid Man @thekrynoidman
Wait, if Matt Smith is the 13th, why did he start to regenerate in the Impossible Astronaut?29 December 2013 at 06:31 #23577GothamCelt @gothamcelt
Is Tasha Lem the next Doctor after Peter Capaldi?
The idea of a female Doctor has been about for quite a while. One way of limiting the ‘outrage’ factor would be to for her to be already known to the viewers. I think, reading through the comments, that many folk think Tasha Lem will be back in one form or another. Bit of a leap though, but what is a forum for if not idle speculation about what might occur in the future?29 December 2013 at 08:41 #23580Rob @rob
My wife, who watches mainly because of me and is a 10 fan, thinks Clara’s Nan is Rose or channeling her.
I think Nan was channeling Idris, she didn’t tell the story that was wanted but the one that was needed.
Yes we’re all bonkers in my family, one driven by coffee the other driven by tea 🙂
I am no going to disagree with some of our superior thinkers and push Tasha Lem as River, post CAL.
I shall coral my thoughts into a near future post29 December 2013 at 08:50 #23581Devilishrobby @devilishrobby
Oh my lord you are not suggesting that Tasha is a future incarnation of the doctor eeeehew.. I don’t have anything against there being a female doctor but the thought of the doctor snogging himself!!!! Now someone in a previous post said something about everyone being an avatar on the papal mainframe so the aging or non aging as the case may be of Tasha Lem could be explained in that fashion. I agree I want to see more of Tasha but in an interview with the actress who plays her on radio 4 She has stated as far as she knows the role was a one off for the Xmas special, of coarse she may have been told not too reveal any possible future plans for the character. My personal suspicion is that she has some connection to River now I am not saying that she is River but definitely has some connection with her maybe even a sister well what is to say Amy was not pregnant before she and Roary were zapped into the past….. Though I suppose 2 pseudo time lords from the same family is a bit much to believe but as others have said Amy was exposed to the time crack for an awfully long time as well as traveling in the tardis who knows what that may have done to her genetics.
Ah well enough of my ramblings we will let the more knowledgable members of the forum disscuss their pet theories 🙂29 December 2013 at 09:03 #23582
Hi. This is my first post, and unfortunately it’s not at all clever, but here it is: It seemed like Mr. Capalidi’s Doctor (14? 12?) did manipulate some buttons on the TARDIS before he asked Clara how to fly it. Was he flicking them randomly, as it appears, or….?
Thank you for being such a nice forum.29 December 2013 at 09:07 #23583
I don’t even know what numbers to use.29 December 2013 at 09:25 #23584
@nicelyuseless – I have a strong suspicion Mr Capaldi’s asked to be Twelve rather than Thirteen. 🙂 The BBC are certainly calling him the Twelfth – but if it worries you, you can always call him the Capaldi Doctor.
Yes, he flicked switches. He starts off completely confident, goes to the TARDIS console, flicks switches and presses some buttons – then seems to realise he has no idea what he’s doing.
Regeneration trauma: two seconds ago he knew how to fly the TARDIS. Now he realises he doesn’t. I’d guess the reaction he got from the TARDIS told him that those were the wrong buttons/switches. 🙂29 December 2013 at 09:33 #23585Anonymous @
Wait, if Matt Smith is the 13th, why did he start to regenerate in the Impossible Astronaut?
Ah, but The Doctor didn’t start to regenerate, it was the Teselector posing as him 😉
It’s unlikely that The Silence were aware of the meta-crisis Doctor or The War Doctor so they’d have assumed that The Doctor was still able to regenerate. In order to avoid disappointing them (or, more accurately, so that Moffat didn’t give the game away) , he used a bit of jiggery-pokery to give the appearance that he, ie the teselector, was regenerating.29 December 2013 at 10:29 #23586Anonymous @
Does anyone know the piece of music that was played when the crack appeared to give him the new regeneration cycle?
Two pieces of music were used in that scene.
The piece used when the crack first appears in the sky is from ‘To Save The Doctor’ (used in the opening scene of TNoTD, which is really just a reworking of Season 3’s ‘This Is Gallifrey’). The second piece, used when The Doctor receives his new set of regens, is a reworking of the last part of ‘The Doctor’s Theme’ from Season 4.
The Doctor’s Theme (the part used kicks in at 1:40)29 December 2013 at 11:27 #23589
@bluesqueakpip — I don’t even know how to respond in this forum. Thank you for even taking my initial post seriously.
Thanks.29 December 2013 at 11:34 #23591
Ok, I know how numbers work. However, I’ve never posted in a…thing like this. Obviously.
Sorry.29 December 2013 at 16:02 #23598
but what is a forum for if not idle speculation about what might occur in the future?
Absolutely. And I’m proud to say we’ve been living up to our strapline.
@devilishrobby The Tasha Lem actress has also said she’s extremely good at keeping secrets!
There’s obviously a lot we don’t know about her… her ability to fly the TARDIS is especially intriguing. She may have been a companion before she joined the Church of the PM for example, or a companion to another Time Lord. Or maybe she is herself a Time Lord – the not allowing herself to age thing for example. But then presumably she could have spoken to the TLs thro the crack, without having to go and get Clara. I’d be happy to see her back, with a connection to the Doctor, but preferably not a family one! Intriguing thought that she’s a River incarnation tho. Or a projection from the Library.
I wrongly suggested earlier that the Dr and Clara sent projections of themselves to the Papal Mainframe, but it was only their clothes which were holograms. So, am still wondering why that’s in there – just for the gag-value, to get Matt in the buff, or is there something else going on?
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