The Woman Who Fell To Earth
21 October 2018 at 02:22 #64729
I just checked “Heaven Sent”,
Start with the right episode. Heaven Sent was the middle of a three-parter.
“You say your line, I’ll say mine”.
I didn’t see that somewhat clunky timing until re-watching Heaven Sent,
I was commenting on this episode, the topic of this thread, the clue being:
Anyway, back to what actually happened in the episode:
To try and get the thread back on topic.21 October 2018 at 02:57 #6473021 October 2018 at 23:33 #64774CedarBranchTardis @cedarbranchtardis
So regeneration can change XY chromosomes into XX? 🙂 My biggest “complaint” although I’m not really complaining, is “falling in love” with the characters and companions of Dr. Who and have them “move on”. Rose, Clara, Martha, Mickey, loved his line “I’m the tin dog”, LOL. But I can’t change things so I have to move on. Haven’t watched the new doctor yet, but will soon, DVR’ing the new episodes with intentions to watch them when the weather gets cold and nasty and it gets dark at suppertime. Feel free to reply, but keep it clean. :-).21 October 2018 at 23:49 #64775
@cedarbranchtardis this is just like the fake memes where someone claims to have made some kind of a program absorb so many episodes of a television series than write something about it, only with troll comments on the series in this case.22 October 2018 at 00:24 #64778Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip
To state the completely obvious – we haven’t any idea what kind of chromosomes an alien from the planet Gallifrey would have, but sequential hermaphrodites are fairly well known in biology. 🙂22 October 2018 at 07:12 #64781janetteB @janetteb
It is rather late going up but local fans discuss the new episode over Jammy Dodgers here
Janette23 October 2018 at 18:14 #6485023 October 2018 at 20:58 #64866
Really loving the ensemble cast (apparently a throwback to the early early days)… it has worked in any number of superhero movies so , yeay! Also glad to get away from the romance/crushie stuff (well, it might rear its ugly head later) and into the idea that stories do not hinge on romance and women heroes carry their own swords…er…sonic army knives.
Jodie WHitaker mentioned in an interview how all the heroes of her childhood stories were guys… in my childhood (ahem, 60s) …same. So wonderful to see the kind of hero I would have loved as a ten year old… and do today!23 October 2018 at 21:25 #64875Anonymous @24 October 2018 at 02:04 #64891Anonymous @
I’m sorry but so far Segun Akinola‘s music sucks. I love composers who sometimes copy others like James Horner used to do but they do it with originality and homage. Listen to the lame John Willams horn ripoff during one of the bus scenes in the Rosa episode, not original and evokes zero emotion. He got where he is too fast or maybe the producers are over doing it with “inclusiveness”. I have heard nothing original always a constant synthesizer background that gets annoying with and occasional drum beat, horrible!! No talent! As far as not understanding Jodi I’m American and I need the subtitles on anyway to understand British accents. So far the writing is not great either. If they can’t come up with great villains please reuse the incredibly original villains created by previous writers especially Moffat and Davies like the weeping angels, the Vashta Nerada and the Monks.. I’m not getting my hopes up!24 October 2018 at 11:41 #6489924 October 2018 at 13:46 #64905
the “lame John Williams horn rip off” was interesting wasn’t it?
It was W.G Snuffy Walden, not Williams. Snuff worked with band ELP under the Manticore label. Their album (and name) was Stray Dog with 3 songs by Greg Lake. Snuffy’s horn is sometimes a trumpet, with a Harmon mute and straight mute. Composers DO ferret out important motifs.
The trumpet motif was used carefully by Snuffy thematically where episodes (of various shows like Sports Night) highlight race and where the plot focusses on a character struggling with an immense decision. So, music foreshadows those character beats. A score needs a competent awareness of when to ‘let rip’ which worked exceptionally well in these episodes.
He got where he is too fast or maybe the producers are over doing it with “inclusiveness”. I have heard nothing original always a constant synthesizer background that gets annoying with and occasional drum beat, horrible!! No talent! As far as not understanding Jodi I’m American and I need the subtitles on anyway to understand British accents. So far the writing is not great either. If they can’t come up with great villains
You seem repetitive yourself 🙂 What with “not great” being used a tad overmuch. So, in summary:
1. The Rosa episode used a trumpet motif familiar to us via Snuffy, Stray Dogs; Greg Lake and Keith Emerson.
2. Not everything is synthesised.
3. In the title sequence, Akinola brought back the original side drum using a rute -that’s your “occasional drum beat.” Also: cross sticks.
4. What makes you think it was Akinola during these 3 episodes? Your “horrible!! no talent!” is thus confusing.
5. But Akinola has game: consider Expedition Volcano; Black and British; The Human Body; The VIP Paedophile Ring and the Jerry Goldsmith Award etc with a Masters in composition. “He got where he is” due to a discography achievement level.
6. You’re a bit misinformed because Alec Roberts is contributor, orchestrator and conductor for each score so perhaps direct your fury at him? 🙂
7. On a different note: you refer to James Horner, Segun Akinola, John Williams, Moffat and Williams and yet you use Whittaker’s first name only: Jodie?
8. on “the writing aint great” explain why, perhaps. It would help.
9. But as you write: “they’re over-doing it with inclusiveness” I wonder whether explaining the why would assist? You seem to suggest if people of a different culture are chosen it’s because they’re Black and ‘some’ might need a bone thrown their way despite their “zero” talent.
10. Most composers and orchestrators prefer some ‘dry sound’ rather than lots of competing motifs or character choons. Also, if you’ve seen three eps only it might be wise avoiding judgement. You can dislike the orchestrator but claiming he’s talentless is unfair, imho.
Puro.24 October 2018 at 20:53 #64915Mudlark @mudlark
I always hesitate to comment on the music in Doctor Who, having had no formal musical education worth mentioning and being all too aware that I have largely failed to remedy the deficit. What Rosa Parks’ theme brought immediately to my mind, though, was Aaron Copland’s Fanfare for the Common Man. Whether that was the intention I have no idea, but it would seem highly appropriate.25 October 2018 at 05:00 #64933
Yes indeed. Copland’s work of 1942 was adapted in many ways by….Emerson, Lake and Palmer who were introduced to Stray Dogs (W.G Snuffy Walden) and for which Greg Lake of ELP contributed songs (it’s all very close). This was also what our friend @msrbahar noticed when referencing Williams who’s famous for Harry Potter, Jaws, Close Encounters (personal fav), Star Wars The Space Opera and E.T.
Williams referenced Copland’s style. In the ’40s Eugene Goossens repeated his urge for a fanfare used before the beginning of a concert during the First World War. The idea was to celebrate America’s freedom, the enormity and solemnity of the task ahead and paying taxes…. 🙂 So successful was it, it became essential to repertoire and is one of the most recorded, re-used compositions performed at one of the Obama inauguration ceremonies and as @jimthefish and others know, at the opening of the new Scottish Parliament House.
Music has that incredible ability to flex our hind brain as we say: “huh? That’s….familiar!” As the following characters’ dialogue supports, music is in every way a conversation, conventional or unconventional and whilst viewers might prefer Gold/Foster’s beautiful melodies, most know that many themes were re-used across several years. These days a ‘dirty’ score is preferred by some show-runners -not unlike John Cage and his ‘meditations’ on sound- and I think Roberts/Akinola followed CC’s conceptual idea. A score heavy with motifs and crunching instruments, distracts viewers from the story which requires considerable work to ‘seep’ into the bones.
This episode and those following have shown a remarkable tendency to ‘gab.’ 🙂 And I like that in this Doctor and her companions. She seems to be an open book (though dramatic tension/history tells us otherwise); self aware, planning and chattin’.
To me, the “four adventurers” work fast to keep ahead of the baddies or ensure history’s intact so adding mesmerising themes could cause the entire meat of the episode to crash with confusion and a hint of a Copeland ‘motif’ or ELP’s style is noticeable possibly due to the absence of a “haunting, rising and falling” score. Less is best.
It seems I have become The Lecturer and I apologise for that! It “seeps into the bones.” I can imagine a friend of mine at work reading this and rolling his eyes 😈
Puro25 October 2018 at 05:53 #64935ichabod @ichabod
@thane16 Puro — Ah, thanks for that clip from Close Encounters — I can’t watch that end sequence (and its rich, playful score) without tears these days — it seems like some message from the past of a different planet, one still full of curiosity, good will, and the confidence *not* to meet a ET visitor with guns blazing. That’s not us any more (if it ever was, except in the minds of visionary artists); not in the US, that’s for sure, where one political party is trying to shift the blame for its own adherents’ threatening behavior to the party of the victims — an act of calculated venomousness that seems alien to nation that I grew up in.
We’re at war, here, whether we want to recognize the fact or not, and the rights of POC are central to that war. Again.25 October 2018 at 07:57 #64937
@swordwhale ‘Duct tape, bungee cords and fence wire… oh yeah, and cable ties…’
took me a while to work out what you were responding to here…25 October 2018 at 09:40 #64941
@thane16 Puro – lecture away! I love reading your insights into the music – really revelatory.25 October 2018 at 09:43 #64942
Just re-watched The Sound of Drums and noted the similarities between the scene where TennDoc, Martha & Cap’n Jack in a random warehouse cannibalise bits of kit to make the perception filters, and the scene here where WhitDoc & her pals in a random warehouse cannibalise bits of kit to make the Sheffield Sonic (as it will hereinafter be known). The lighting and everything was so close – def. an hommage, I think.25 October 2018 at 13:27 #64946
‘Duct tape, bungee cords and fence wire… oh yeah, and cable ties…’
took me a while to work out what you were responding to here…
@miapatrick oooops… taking me awhile to figure out the details of how this forum works, ack… oh look, you can quote stuff! Yeah, woulda’ been a good idea for me to add where that connected to! (eeeeeee, communications 101 >D)
Also.. what is Puro??????????????25 October 2018 at 13:29 #64947
Puro — Ah, thanks for that clip from Close Encounters — I can’t watch that end sequence (and its rich, playful score) without tears these days — it seems like some message from the past of a different planet, one still full of curiosity, good will, and the confidence *not* to meet a ET visitor with guns blazing. That’s not us any more (if it ever was, except in the minds of visionary artists); not in the US, that’s for sure, where one political party is trying to shift the blame for its own adherents’ threatening behavior to the party of the victims — an act of calculated venomousness that seems alien to nation that I grew up in.
We’re at war, here, whether we want to recognize the fact or not, and the rights of POC are central to that war. Again.
@ichabod well said.25 October 2018 at 14:00 #6494825 October 2018 at 14:53 #64949
Thanks for clearing up “Puro” !
(here I was thinking this was akin to allonsey)25 October 2018 at 15:53 #64950
Also worth noting that Puro is an actual bona fide proper world class expert on music, with the PhD and years of experience (and a truly great Bowie anecdote that it is worth searching the forum for) to prove it. So if some halfwit says “the music was crap and unoriginal” you can safely take it that any reply from Puro is not just winging it, but from a deep and rich understanding of the subject matter.
@thane16, aka Spawn of Puro, learns fast and pays attention in school …25 October 2018 at 16:08 #6495125 October 2018 at 17:55 #64958
Any story with Puro and Bowie is worth the research
I always feel smarter when I read a post from Puro.
My experience with music pretty much stops at, “That sounds cool…”25 October 2018 at 18:16 #64959nerys @nerys
@thane16 Bravo, Puro! Your explanation was a joy to read. Any thread citing my favorite composer, Aaron Copland, is a winner in my book.
And that clip from Close Encounters. Such marvelous musical interplay, one of John Williams’ best moments. But the thing that makes the scene so utterly engaging is the look of wonder on everyone’s faces. As @ichabod noted, what a different world it was then … not so long ago. Tears, indeed.25 October 2018 at 18:24 #64960Anonymous @
@thane16 I was writing on my phone and I could not remember Jodi’s last name. Really that’s what you criticize? I don’t have to be a musician or music PHD to know what I like or think is a good score that works with a drama… My taste has been pretty consistently backed up by history… all the composers I have championed when they were not popular like Prokofiev, Ives, Horner, Herrmann, Williams, Talking Heads even etc… these composers/bands were not always a household name and some still are not but they are now highly regarded as great composers/bands… Gold was a great believer (in my opinion!) the leitmotiv like Williams, etc… I don’t see that in Akinola… don’t expect any great and lasting themes like Clara’s theme from this composer. I understand “dirty’ score is preferred by some show-runners” I simply don’t agree with that opinion and I think Gold was responsible for a lot of the new Who’s popularity, not unlike the score for E.T. which Spielberg said “was E.T.” or something like that.. Imagine E.T. or Star Wars without Williams? I doubt either would have been as popular. Only time will tell.25 October 2018 at 18:25 #64961Anonymous @
AND actually Close Encounters was my least favorite score of Williams. IMHO25 October 2018 at 18:29 #64962Anonymous @
And yes that is exactly what I meant: “You seem to suggest if people of a different culture are chosen it’s because they’re Black and ‘some’ might need a bone thrown their way despite their “zero” talent.” IMHO25 October 2018 at 18:46 #64963
@msrbahar What you call your ‘humble’ opinion is actually staggeringly arrogant. And obviously racist. So I don’t think I’m alone in saying I’d rather you took your opinions elsewhere.25 October 2018 at 18:58 #64964Anonymous @
You probably are not old enough to have lived through the horrible days in the 50s and 60s of “popular” scores in Hollywood at least, driving out the great orchestral composers even Hitchcock was not immune. Those scores are not remembered and great scores were few and far between. It really wasn’t until the 70s with Star Wars that the epic orchestra scores made a comeback. I don’t see that period ending any time soon do you think even the Marvel superhero movies would be as popular with “dirty’ scores?25 October 2018 at 18:58 #64965Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip
Those who use IMHO are generally shouting ‘I am not remotely humble!’
In my not-remotely-humble-opinion, of course.
Other points to note are that you somehow managed to remember the last names of every single man you mentioned, including Segun Akinola, James Horner, John Williams, Davies, Moffat – but apparently being on your phone renders you completely unable to remember who the heck the leading actor is – or, for that matter, even spell the tiny bit of her name that you can remember. So I’m forced to conclude that your phone is pretty sexist, and you should probably switch brands.
My taste has been pretty consistently backed up by history
This generally translates as ‘I like popular stuff, but I’m a bit ahead of most trends.’ Fair enough. But telling a PhD in Musicology than you know more than they do does connect fairly solidly with your use of IMHO. Personally, I’m not terribly fond of Wagner – if I end up in Hell, they’ll probably stuff me in a chamber with Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg on a never-ending loop – but that doesn’t mean I think he’s a terrible composer, just that I don’t like him. In my definitely-not-humble opinion, of course.
And yes that is exactly what I meant:
Uh, huh. You really need to switch your phone brand – it’s making what you type sound pretty racist as well as sexist. Maybe make the plunge back to a dumb phone – it might suit you.
In my humble-yeah-right opinion, of course.25 October 2018 at 19:01 #64966Anonymous @
I am not a racist. I even think Affirmative Action is a good thing. I didn’t say that’s what happened I stated it is a possibility… So you don’t think there is any possibility that happens that is your opinion, great!25 October 2018 at 19:02 #64967Anonymous @
OMG Jodie Whittaker!! BTW I thought she was great!!25 October 2018 at 19:02 #64968Anonymous @
OMG Jodie Whittaker!! BTW I thought she was great!!25 October 2018 at 19:03 #64969idiotsavon @idiotsavon
Busy time of the night but just logged in very quickly to say @cathannabel you most certainly are not alone.25 October 2018 at 19:09 #64970Anonymous @
I have as much right to an opinion as anyone else …. I would not tell you to take your opinions elsewhere.25 October 2018 at 19:21 #64971Anonymous @
What you call a “dirty” score I call cheap, quick and uninspired that’s my opinion of course….25 October 2018 at 19:41 #64972Craig @craigEmperor
@msrbahar You say “I don’t have to be a musician or music PhD to know what I like or think is a good score that works with a drama” which is fine. You also say “I have heard nothing original always a constant synthesizer background that gets annoying with an occasional drum beat, horrible!! No talent!” (I have edited for errors).
You are entitled to your opinion. I couldn’t do that score. I quite enjoy it. I love Talking Heads. I couldn’t write ‘Psycho Killer’ or ‘Burning Down The House’.
I think it’s been explained that there are many people involved in the score for Doctor Who.
If you have a problem with it, fine. I’d like you, in a positive way, to point to scores you love. We have a music topic where you can post YouTube clips, or SoundCloud:
By the way, I love the Hitchcock / Herrmann scores. North by Northwest being one of my favourites.25 October 2018 at 19:49 #64974
You do have every right to your opinion. I my opinion, arguing with a PhD. in their field of study is not the brightest of ideas.
Just like those who have the opinion it’s ok to fart in public. Nothing wrong with it. It will cause a certain amount of backlash from those with differing opinions. Again. Not the brightest of ideas
IMHO25 October 2018 at 20:06 #64975Anonymous @
Really? Farting? OK I admit it is not a “humble” opinion. Bernard Herrmann was a notoriously grumpy arrogant man too, I’m in good company. I admit to being a grumpy old gay white man whose African American partner recently died of cancer now being called a racist! I admit that doesn’t mean I couldn’t be a racist but the chances are pretty slim. I’ll leave you people to your opinions, bye.25 October 2018 at 21:19 #64976Anonymous @
Let me make that more grumpy and arrogant: having a PHD in music? Who gives a shit?25 October 2018 at 22:09 #64980
@msrbahar I am genuinely, very sorry for your loss. And that’s a damn good excuse for grumpiness. Nonetheless, I still cannot read your statement about Segun Akinola’s selection being anything to do with his race as anything other than racist. You didn’t care for his score, fine. But to jump from that to the assumption that he’s been given preferential treatment because he’s black?? I’m not saying you are a racist, but that is an assumption that is racist. IMHO.25 October 2018 at 22:11 #64981
No one is saying you don’t have a right to your opinion. There are a whole lot of people here who disagree. I happen to not think all that deeply into music. My experience, as noted in a prior post, is limited to, “… that sounds cool.” When Puro talks about music, I listen. Just as I listened to PhD. Art history professor during the discussion of art. I may not agreed with his opinion on the Mona Lisa (my opinion of the painting is rather unimpressive), but he sure argued his point well and the concession of the class agreed. I actually was made to feel like quite the misogynist after. I was pretty raw about it, but eventually bowed to the overarching perception the Mona Lisa is an exceptional painting (esp. during exam time).
You don’t like the music to the episode – totally fine. Music, like all art, is completely subjective. The issue is when strong words are used to decry the talent and ability of the composers, those who disagree with you are going to come back equally strong.
I still think the Mona Lisa is over rated, but I sure ain’t going to post it
(Ooops)26 October 2018 at 01:39 #64991Anonymous @
They apparently deleted my whole response to this so I give up… Why wouldn’t you post that the Mona Lisa is over rated what are you afraid of?26 October 2018 at 02:26 #64992
@msrbahar “who gives a shit” Yes! But that’s no way to be, really, because to be misinformed is to be held at someone else’s mercy.
I’m very sorry for your loss, these are awful times so good people should step up. Agreed. Along with @craig I like North by Northwest. And my posts vanish too but I don’t think good mods delete things unless there’s an ad hominin attack.
I didn’t always ‘go’ for the 5 note diatonic sequence in Close Encounters but it’s hours long with rich, steeped in 1950s tonality so the last Act’s essentially different to the lush music of say, ‘Barry’s Escape’. I agree: Williams and Spielberg worked together a lot.
@troygorsline I was 18 when I saw The Mona Lisa. I was impressed. 7 years later I saw it again, surrounded by loads of people and felt….disappointed. No real idea why. It could have been tiredness, press of the tourists, poor positioning of the
god-headpainting or just “it looks so small compared with last time.” Perspective! 🙂
@cathannabel Yes, I think there’s a connection to The Sound of Drums in tWWFtE. I enjoyed that particular episode. There’s 3 contiguous eps but the last ep where the Doctor is in the cage is a tad….weird?
So, over to the Music Thread.
Puro.26 October 2018 at 02:53 #64993
Gotta love a bit of Copeland.
If you can find Howard Goodalls contextualising of Variations On a Shaker Hymn it is a fun listen (I think it was part of his Story of Music series).
BTW @thane16 The Statistical Outlier, have you seen Ready Player One? It a bit of a hoot (though two moments that rattled my suspension of disbelief), but it uses motifs from pretty well every SF and superhero film you can think of, including a lot of John Williams (of course). I suspect you would find it an aural treat.
and a film using well-known hooks to nod to many of its inspirations.
It’s almost as if the composer has done his research.
That seems to be becoming a bit of a theme.26 October 2018 at 05:33 #64995nerys @nerys
@msrbahar Let me make that more grumpy and arrogant: having a PHD in music? Who gives a shit?
I am sorry for your loss. I truly am. But I’m with @cathannabel. I can’t read your dismissals of Segun Akinola as anything other than racist, mainly because you claim he was chosen specifically because of his race. Why not because of his talent, which is demonstrated in his other works, not just what he has done so far for Doctor Who?
And, as for “who gives a shit”? I do. It’s far too easy to dismiss PhDs, especially when one has not done the work required to attain one. I’ve never done it, but know people who have, including my dear dad. It’s not an easy thing, contrary to what many seem to believe. And it’s not the degree, per se, that’s the thing, but the research and work that goes into it. That’s why it’s important. That’s why I give a shit. Because without that, we’re all just throwing our opinions out into the wind. I appreciate learning from people who dig into it more deeply than that.26 October 2018 at 07:58 #64996
@msrbahar: ‘you think they don’t discuss such matters in casting and production?’ we already know they do. We know this because they were very open about the fact they wanted to cast a BAME actor for Bill (which to some people translated as ‘she only got the role because she’s black’ as though this requirement cancelled out every other part of the selection process). We also knew they wanted a female Doctor at this point (and again, despite women making up as much of the population as men, this was taken to mean they lowered the standard of performance to shoehorn her in).
Given this, if they’d decided they wanted someone from an ethnic minority to write the music, they probably would have mentioned the fact. By leaping from ‘I don’t like the music’ to ‘the person who wrote the music wasn’t white’ just to get to ‘it seems as though that’s why they chose him’ you’re making an assumption that isn’t backed up by what we know about the current Who team and their quite openly discussed interest in diversity.
as for the Phd: the amount of study and experience that goes into getting one of those does, legitimately, make someone an authority. Doesn’t mean you have to like the music. But something you don’t like isn’t automatically crap. I don’t like Dickens. I wouldn’t for a second suggest he wasn’t a brilliant writer, it’s not a style of writing I like. I know enough about literature to see how and why he’s good. Like @troygorsline, I have a ‘meh’ response to the Mona Lisa. But that doesn’t mean it’s not a good painting.
Regarding the name of the doctor: there’s been a great discussion on this site about the tendency to call the previous Doctor’s by their surname, and this one by her first name and what that implies. For all I know you always said ‘Chris’ ‘David’ ‘Matt’ ‘Peter’ when talking about previous Doctors, but over all, this actor has been referred to by her first name far more than her predecessors, so it’s something to be aware off.26 October 2018 at 19:40 #65013Anonymous @
When I say it is crap that is obviously my opinion and I can absolutely say that, I’m not afraid to say what I think. Why can’t I say that? If Darth is afraid to say what he/she thinks about the Mona Lisa that’s their prerogative but that is not me.
Right it is obvious… there is an actor of Indian ethnicity, African American ethnicity and now a woman as the Doctor and those were chosen on purpose… and I am fine with that and I hope there us a Doctor of other than “white” ethnicity at some point. But if one of those actors was horrible in your opinion and was only chosen for their ethnicity you would say something then wouldn’t you? I cannot and will never know if that happened I just brought up the possibility.. Maybe I am a lot more aware of the music than most but it seems a lot of opinions here don’t really care one way or the other and that’s fine too, but that’s not me…
As far as a PDH in music again who gives a shit… means nothing to me…
And as far as the name of the doctor I won’t even justify that with and answer ridiculous, you are taking it way too far..
In the end my opinion is my opinion sorry if you disagree, that is certainly your right.
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.