The Woman Who Fell To Earth

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  • #64444

    @notime

    Ah, gotcha.

    They’d usually be called the opening credits (terminology differs from the US, I believe, where the opening credits would be the bit AFTER the main titles, where the action has started and various writers, producers etc etc  names would appear), or title sequence as @thane16 says.

    Anyhoo, in one of the -ha-ha-we’ve-seen-it-you-haven’t reviews it was alluded that we would not see the new opening credits until Ep 2.

    #64454
    MadTimeTravellingScot @madtimetravellingscot

    Really on tenterhooks waiting for ep 2.

    @craig suggesting we may have to wait till next week for the plot momentum to really get going. Well that’s OK if the jeopardy/character interaction/heart-tug carries the adventure. I suspect it will.

    I interpret the very significant BBC publicity highlighting “a hostile alien environment” (together with a few hidden signs in ep 1) as code for ‘we’re at least moving some of the immigration and race issues into the public awareness arena like we did with LGBT’. But what do I know?

    (For non-UK viewers, ‘hostile environment’ is a strategy by the UK government to make it difficult for foreign nationals to live in the UK)

    This philosophical direction is in tune with the humanitarian/universalist values of the doctor and pals.

    So, keep reading between the lines, folks. We’re never irrelevant. We’re always challenging.

     

    #64505
    Nova @goldenova

    Favorite Line:

    “Because we’re friends now.”

    That was when I got those tingles that only Doctor Who gives me. Those tingles that tell me something great is about to start.

    #64510
    geoffers @geoffers

    @thetinker

    i was perusing the reddit doctor who group, and someone there suggested that the red crystal thing was the rear reflector from ryan’s bike, which he had picked up (presumably in a cut scene)? (someone even linked a picture of one from a catalog, but i can’t find the post, again, to link it here.) anyway, as ryan moves towards the pod, you can see that he puts his left hand in his pocket before he walks up to touch it, so… i’m inclined to go for this most obvious, least bonkers explanation. he picked it up, but we were just never shown that he did…

    the question this leads me to, is: why didn’t whomever is responsible for continuity see this? or, also, why would a 3-5 sec shot of him picking it up be so awful to leave in? i know there were a few weird cuts in this episode, so i’m not really all that surprised that this one slipped through. but i’m also reminded of the infamous “no ducks” duck pond from smith’s introductory episode. maybe chibbers decided to give us something to chew on, as a tribute to the grand moff?! lol

    @everyone… i’m so glad the show is back! it’s nice to peruse the forums, again, and to see what everyone’s views are, and so far i’m content to just say; i like it (a lot): jodie is well on her way to being a full doctor in our hearts, and minds: and, i expect it is only up, up, and away, from here on out… 😀

    #64547
    Kharis @kharis

    @ichabod Totally see what you are saying and agree.

    Like you, at the end of the day, I just want to love it.  I’m hoping as the season progresses I learn to love it.

    #64596
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    Hi everyone.

    Great to see so many faces old and new. *Tries to think of a more cyber-appropriate word than “faces”* … *Shrugs and waves.*

    Really enjoying reading your comments 🙂 Little Savon is growing fast and becoming quite a handful – leaving limited time to read and reflect. But I finally got round to episode 1 at least…

    The problem with arriving late is that everyone has pretty much said what I would have said, only they said it better…

    I’ll add to the general consensus and say I really enjoyed Jodie Whittaker’s performance. I’ve seen her in serious drama before, but never realised how funny she is. A new Doctor is a bit like a new pair of shoes though: no matter how much I like the new one, I feel sooo much more comfortable with the old one!

    @jimthefish

    kudos to Chibnall for making even Karl, who could have been generic victim, a real believable character.

    Seconded with bells on.

    I thought Karl was a great character. A risk-averse crane operator, presumably railroaded by his father into a job he not only hates, but that scares the **** out of him on a daily basis!
    His positive self-talk, while comical in its way, points to the underlying tragedy of a son who can never fit the niche his father has carved for him, and is left feeling inadequate, anxious and unworthy as a result.
    Hence, I think, the surprisingly bold impulse to push Tim Shaw off the crane. (I AM important!)
    I thought that was a fantastic bit of characterisation.
    Either a) @craig and @miapatrick are onto something and we’ll be meeting Karl and the SkyHigh co again, or b) this is the kind of treatment even the one-off characters get.
    I’d be happy with either option.

    I know the music has been much-discussed already. Speaking with no expertise whatsoever, I’ll keep my thoughts brief… I’ve been finding the new sound subtle and eerie – which I like – but the light-touch approach changes the whole tone of the show for me, and I’m not sure how I feel about it.
    Part of me did kind of like the fact that Graham’s eulogy didn’t have emotive (or indeed any) music. A bit of Ave Maria or the like might have pulled on the old heartstrings more, but without it there was a starkness that I appreciated.
    Bradley Walsh carried the scene on his own anyway – no Ave Maria required. (And to think I’d only ever seen him on The Chase!)

    At any rate I’m finding the change in music (and general change in tone) harder to get used to than the change of Doctor!

    I’m already invested in the companions and the dynamic between them (I agree Yaz hasn’t had her “go” yet, but one thing at a time I suppose) and am excited to see how that evolves.

    Re: the whole discussion about “fridging” and Grace being a “woman in a fridge…”

    Firstly, I had to google “fridging.” Secondly, it’s fascinating.

    I really appreciated that whole discussion. I hope to come back for a re-read if there’s time tonight. Thanks to those concerned.

    Oh, and right at the end when they all disappeared and the microwave went ping? Spot-on timing. I loved that!

    Looking forward to the rest of the season. Thanks so much @craig and mods for keeping this forum going. I’ve missed this!

    X

     

    #64605
    Anonymous @

    Counterpoint

    I like Jodie and was looking forward to exploring all the possibilities of viewing the time vortex through the eyes of a woman but the writers never really delivered. Dr. Who has always been it’s best when it’s included a thought provoking idea and required a little bit of abstract thought. This one doesn’t have any pizazz.

    First off, falling out of the sky and crashing through the roof of a train should be dramatic but it wasn’t at all. I’m reminded of Fifth Element when I think of how this would be done right and the setup really matters. In FE, we watch as the cab’s computer tells Corbin that he only has 2 points left on his license and they even give us a little scare as he pulls out of his garage and almost gets sideswiped. When Lelu crashes through, there’s an additional sense of panic when you realize that the guy is going to lose his job. All these details create tension and that tension was totally missing when the Doctor dropped in.

    The premise for the monster was absurd too. He’s supposed to prove his mettle by coming to Earth and killing some young man with confidence problems who most likely was not in the military and probably never had a girlfriend? What kind of test is that?

    Then we witness Toothface murder two people in cold blood and even extract trophies. My first thought was where’s Dexter when you need him.

    What I found most offensive though was when the Doctor started talking to him about changing and becoming a new person. I’m sorry, but I’m not ready to let him off the hook for being a psychokiller that easily. This kind of writing betrays a lack of seriousness about the situation and characters. This villain needs to be brought to justice, not deported.

    The final straw was when he’s decomposing, the kid gives him the boot over the side and the Doctor scolds him! Think of this from his perspective, this thing could have spun around and in one final act of sadism, disemboweled him. He doesn’t know what’s going on and in the moment he finds his manhood, she emasculates him.

    If this kind of banal writing continues, I don’t think the show will survive past two more seasons.

    #64606
    Anonymous @

    What episode 1 could have been…

    Imagine this plot line–We begin with a female character sobbing into a pillow saying “He left me; he left me.” She looks at the night table at some prescription meds and we immediately realize that she’s thinking about killing herself. Entries in a diary and all the accoutrements of a young woman in crisis follow.

    The next act consists of the Doctor landing on a parked car and is witnessed by a constable. When astoundingly, she appears to still be alive, she’s rushed to hospital. (note: there’s lots of good tension in this as she could be found out as alien); however, she wakes up in the ambulance alright but doesn’t know her name.

    Consequently, they take her to a psych ward for observation. The more she speaks, the more the staff thinks she’s delusional and security gets tightened around her. This plot device is completed when she cleverly escapes after days. It needs to be kind of gritty too.

    Finally free, she sets out to find her TARDIS.

    We flash to the young suicidal woman’s room where she gets a text. She becomes desparate to meet because she realizes “He still loves me.”

    We suddenly realize that the girl is the TARDIS but something’s gone wrong. She’s having a crisis much like a mental break.

    If we’re going to keep the beaming into space idea, what we see is that the teleporting device can only send her (and them) to the place where the TARDIS last was but in the crisis, the TARDIS can’t make the rendezvous. Instead, she manages to create an oxygen bubble in that location.

    When the people and the Doctor suddenly find themselves floating in space, they look at each other and ask “How am I still breathing?” Some time goes by as they process this and finally we hear the engines of the TARDIS. The Doctor then says “Ask me how I know that everything is going to work out?”

    To which they do and she says “Because I’m the Doctor” and the camera swings from the side to the front and the TARDIS comes into view behind them. (now that’s a dramatic TARDIS entrance!).

    The TARDIS then floats over toward the Doctor first and an odd thing happens, it pulls away. There’s a little dialog about being a woman and convincing the TARDIS to let her in. “Just think, it’ll be like having a big sister.” and the writers can play with the dynamics between them.

    The Jodie gets inside and grabs some rope and pulls everyone else in.

    When they land in the TARDIS and all step out, that’s when they realize it’s smaller on the outside and we get to enjoy the joy and wonder of that whole bit again.

    Alright, comment away…

    #64608
    syzygy @thane16

    @shinymcshine

    Futher Mucking Hell! That’s SO good. Much better than Chibber’s (That poor kid scolded for shoving tooth-face off the crane and doing something nasty. Jodes and crane-man should’ve hi-fived, personally. But I reckon Whedon would probably do it Chibber’s way.). But back to yours. My pals at Yale would bloody love it. But I recall some chick, really clever, stuck in a psyche ward, totally delusional, talking about a scary Austrian from the Future? This plot device was completed when she cleverly escapes after days. It was kind of gritty too. 

    Who-viewers wouldn’t call it an “oxygen bubble” but I can totally get this was both iconoclastic and colloquial.

    Sheffield’s pretty gritty and not just figuratively, so you know, props to you.

    Certain dramatists could have issues with: camera swings from the side to the front and the TARDIS comes into view behind them. (now that’s a dramatic TARDIS entrance). In my career I’ve never witnessed a camera swinging either, but sure, it’s 1967 and we do that now.

    Urim V`Thummim…

    Puro

    #64609
    ichabod @ichabod

    @shinymcshine  What I found most offensive though was when the Doctor started talking to him about changing and becoming a new person. I’m sorry, but I’m not ready to let him off the hook for being a psychokiller that easily. This kind of writing betrays a lack of seriousness about the situation and characters. This villain needs to be brought to justice, not deported.

    Excellent point; and I was also startled and offended when the Doctor told the crane operator off for attacking their attacker — he wasn’t shooting at Tim Shaw from a safe distance, the kind of thing the Doctor often deplores, but making a risky move close in.  I didn’t like her reactopm.  I didn’t like it a lot.  It’s hardly a secret that the Doctor talks a good game of pacifism, but (like any flawed being) sometimes ends up shooting somebody and apparently enjoying it (CapDoc’s final battle with the Cybermen).  They hit the right note when Angstrom (what?  Albarians aren’t humans, but this one has a Scandinavian name?) used her knife to cut the rags off epso’s face when the sonic didn’t help: sometimes the Doctor is idealistically right, but situationally wrong, in a potentially lethal sort of way.

    IMO, they need not to make their first female Doctor — still a veteran of many bitter battles — obstinately idealistic.  He/she’s been around the block too many times to miss the fact that sometimes, you gotta hit back and hit hard, instead of trying to talk your way out of getting killed.

    And I love your alternate story line!  Especially her transposing the Tardis into a male partner instead of a (male) Doctor’s female one (in her mind, anyway).  Very provocative, and controversial as well.  What fun that would have been . . . You should be in that writers’ room.  It could have been a fascinating story of  very different regeneration confusion to set against “Deep Breath”, in viewers’ minds.

    Damn!  If that’s your bonkerizing, then baby, you’ve got game.

    #64612
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @shinymcshine while that is an excellent story I think the BBC would hesitate to present a story that initially plays out as a young girl suicidal at being dumped then running back after a text because ‘he still loves me’, and I’m not sure I like that interpretation of our Sexy. I mean, she stole a timelord and ran away to explore the universe. I’m also not sure that, in a world which has experienced a few alien invasions over the years, someone suddenly appearing with two hearts (they’d check her pulse before she’d be put in the ambulance) would be shunted into a psych ward. And they’d still do a full examination. For one thing, the mental break could be related in injury. Also this mental crisis destroys the tardis’ ability to see throughout time, and her memory? I’d assume the Tardis always knew the doctor would be a woman, she sees all the time.

    I agree she seemed a bit harsh on the kid but this is pretty standard for Who. Remember the Christmas invasion? He tells them to get out, earth is protected, and ruins Harriet Smith’s career when she destroys the departing ship. It’s almost as though the Doctor is trying to groom the human race to be a better version of Time Lords, and gets upset when it appears the human race might just become a just as flawed version of the Time Lords…

    #64614
    syzygy @thane16

     

    @ichabod

    Oh come on. @miapatrick and I are throwing up. FOR SURE.

    I should add if one wishes to ad lib or write stories go to fan wank fiction thread.

    T16 (and I’m the younger one! Jeckers H. Cripes)

    Yeah, I’ll be modded off. But I will not stand for stupid and neither will The Mother!

     

    #64618
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @thane16 ummm….

    #64620
    syzygy @thane16

    @miapatrick

    Yep. Oops. You got that right. I (T16) was responding to ….oxygen bubbles and throwing up ….in them…..

    As you were. AAAnd I stole that line from Puro The Elder.

     

    #64621
    ichabod @ichabod

    @thane16  Whuzzit?  Who’s going to mod you off?!  On the internet, nobody minds if you throw up . . . <ggg>  Or if you have an opinion to express, in the tradition of bonkers-ism.

    #64622
    syzygy @thane16

    @ichabod

    Mum is coming up the stairs. She has a heavy tread. It’s like a scary horror flick.

    I may not be modded but I’ll take my punishment if I am (but Mum started it. LOL). Worse (maybe) I’m threatened with no dessert!

    And I like cake 🙁

    #64623
    ichabod @ichabod

    @thane16  NO DESSERT?  I may not even have a crumb of cake from all this long way off, but I will defend to the death your right to a humongous slice!

    Me, I have to settle for muffins.  The only bakery in town that knows how to bake at high altitude (we’re 5,000′ up here) has gone crazy with veganism, so 90% of what they put out now looks delicious but tastes like glue and has the mouthfeel of wallboard.  So I’m reduced to buttermilk cupcakes with chocolate frosting and white chocolate chips (too sweet even for me) stuck on the top.  Aargh.  It’s a co-op, and I’m a member, so I complain from time to time.

    Fat lot of good it does me . . . Go on, man, demand your rights!  LET HIM EAT CAKE!

    #64624
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @thane16: ‘Mum is coming up the stairs. She has a heavy tread’ now, there’s your dramatic tension!

    #64625
    syzygy @thane16

    @miapatrick

    My training has been cancelled. 🙁  Mum said “How on EARTH could I (her) have caused that to happen. What are you? FIVE?”  I didn’t get cake, though, so she easily could  ‘do’ weather. I’m sure words with Rain God are totally within her powers.

    In fairness the tread was because she has to lift a drip…. which in our house has to be funny not sad. So, add in the dramatic tension with the sound of three legs (the drip) and it reminds me of (yes, Buffy!) and also that Zombie movie made in the UK where the oldies were fighting off zombs with walkers.

    Anyway, enough silliness. Maths. Onto Maths.

    @ichabod I find white chocolate also very sweet. I like dark chocolate but Mum who ALWAYS sneers at white-choc eaters was eating white chocolate the other day! I caught her. She pretended she couldn’t see it. Like that would happen. She causes rain to fall, denies me cake, makes me do maths, makes me read a Grenville book in one weekend and lies about chocolate.

    I’m hogging this entire thread…..So, the uhm, tWWFtE was brilliant -for me. There were a few stop starts but I liked the colourisation (?) and also the scariness of the train meme. I think it was newly done as a ‘theme’ or idea – for me anyway . ***hogging ended.

    T16

    #64626
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @ichabod  @thane16

    *Continuing off-topic, but it happens that I have a spare moment while drinking yet another mug of tea.*

    According to my father, who was an authority on the subject, white chocolate barely deserves the name at all. It consists of cocoa butter, milk solids, stabilisers and a *lot* of sugar, but none of those parts of the cocoa bean that make chocolate so delicious and moreish.

    #64628

    @shinymcshine

    Contrapuctual

    First off, falling out of the sky and crashing through the roof of a train should be dramatic

    Why? Could you point to the page of the Big Red Book Of Rules For Stories that says falls must always be played straight? Buster Keaton and Charlie Chaplin must have regretted their entire careers when they read that.

    I would urge a bit of consistency: the idea of the Doc being contained in a psychiatric ward is funny. Well, laughable anyway.

    Also, We. Have. A. Fanfic. Section.

    @ichabod

    Excellent point; and I was also startled and offended when the Doctor told the crane operator off for attacking their attacker — he wasn’t shooting at Tim Shaw from a safe distance,

    Oh pish. He was defeated and oozing from every pore, and The Doctor had given him winners terms of being able to leave. Then Karl dick-moved him from behind in a manner that every previous iteration of the Doctor would have hated.

    #64629
    Anonymous @

    I comment to stop receiving notifications

    #64634
    WibblyWobblyTimeyWimeyStuff @wibblywobblytimeywimeystuff

    Howdy y’all, I’m new here! I’m not sure if it has been asked and answered already, but since the Doctor made her own Sonic Screwdriver out of random “Earth” materials, how does it sync with the Tardis? Since it wasn’t made by the Tardis as with previous incarnations, it stands to reason it wouldn’t be a “new case, same software”. Unless she plugs it in and it updates with the Tardis…..just a thought running through my head…..

    #64635

    @wibblywobblytimeywimeystuff

    I suspect it’s one of those things that gets filed under the general heading of “it just does”.

    But given the level of Time Lord tech and the fact that the screwdriver itself can cope with anything (except wood) I imagine the Tardis can work out how to hijack it and add the requisite software.

    #64637
    Anonymous @

     

     

    @thane16
    Thanks, I’m glad you were able to flesh it out in your head. I was writing in shorthand and I promise, I can expand and clarify everything so it works.

    This is my first time in a fan forum so I can see that the level of sophistication is lost on me for now. This place is full of OCD types like myself.

     

    @pedant
    Regarding: “Also, We. Have. A. Fanfic. Section.”

    While true, I’m writing to make a point about my critique of the series though contrast with something that I thought was a more interesting idea with a lot more depth. For example–

    When I thought of the falling scene, I was thinking Fifth Element. They did a brilliant setup for it and created tension by–having the cab computer tell him he only had two points on his license left, almost got sideswiped pulling out of the garage, and in general just letting you see all the airborne traffic craziness. When Lelu fell through the roof, my first thought was “crap, now he’s really got problems.”

    The fall needed more setup. Maybe even comedic–

    FADE IN:

    EXT DOWNTOWN – EVENING
    A few people are walking, a constable is there.

    INT AUTOMOBILE

    Rob argues with Amber (new companions to come) about searching for a safe parking spot. She’s got a new car. He just wants to get where they’re going. The dialog is actually a pleasant banter. They are good together.

    EXT LOOKING SKYWARD INTO SPACE AT TARDIS

    The perspective is of watching the TARDIS shrink into infinity as D13 falls to earth. Use zoom/pull-out like in Vertigo and slow-mo it.

    EXT DOWNTOWN (SAME LOCATION)

    ROB
    No, that spot over there. Look at the ground, that tree is dripping sap.

    AMBER
    Good eyes (double entendre)

    Rob and Amber get out of the car.

    ROB
    I Can see you’re happy.

    CLOSEUP

    AMBER
    Yes, I’m happy with everything I see. (as she looks at him)

    The car windows explode as D13 lands on the roof of the car.

    PULLBACK
    Looks of shock and horror. Oh the irony.

    *****

    @pedant, that’s a proper setup for the fall.

    #64638
    WibblyWobblyTimeyWimeyStuff @wibblywobblytimeywimeystuff

    @pedant

    That was my assumption as well. I could pick many things in science-fiction apart until I’m blue in the face, but most things end up falling under the “it just does” category!

    I was also thinking the same thing as far as Time Lord tech goes, that the Tardis, being as smart as she is, could find a way to interact with the new sonic. The Doctor would also be smart enough to build in some kind of interface to help the Tardis out.

    #64639
    Anonymous @

    @wibblywobblytimeywimeystuff

    It’s even worse than that. The computer inside it has nothing to do with primitive earth tech either. It would take weeks just to program it. In the 3 Dr.s episode, one had an algorithm running for 400 years to solve the unlocking of a wooden door. The writer’s trivialized it and cheated us again.

    #64646
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @shinymcshine

    What @pedant is gently trying to hint is that this particular discussion site includes posters who are also professional writers and actors. We migrated over here from the Guardian, which is the paper-of-choice for UK arts professionals.

    It’s not that your treatment isn’t good, it’s just that episode forums are the places to discuss and analyse the episode script and episode performances. If you post in the form of a script or treatment I know I’ll automatically start analysing your script/treatment, critiquing it and making suggestions for improvement. Because that’s what I’m trained to do. And I really want to be talking about the aired episode. 😀

    The Fan Creativity forums are the place to post your creative alternatives.

    #64647
    ichabod @ichabod

    @thane16  . . . the sound of three legs . . .

    This phrase delights . . . so evocative of . . . something???

    . . . Zombie movie made in the UK where the oldies were fighting off zombs with walkers.

    Gods, I loved that movie!  Funny as hell.

    @mudlark  . . . white chocolate barely deserves the name at all

    So true!  Thanks; I’ve never seen its utter lack of actual chocolate-ness explained so clearly.  It’s just as bad as I’ve thought it was for years.

    @pedant  . . . the idea of the Doc being contained in a psychiatric ward is funny. Well, laughable anyway.

    I took it a different way entirely: the Doctor in post-regen confusion locked up in a psych ward where “authoritative” people (mostly male) keep telling her she’s wrong about everything and crazy to boot is also deeply not funny, given the history in reality of women being locked up and treated that way (and much worse) for non-conformity of various kinds; I was thinking that could be a very uncomfortable intro to the Doctor’s sex switch and some of the negative reaction to it back when it began to be discussed . . . too uncomfortable for a “family friendly” show, probably, which is apparently (and quite rightly, I think) going to go touch fairly lightly on the implications of the Doctor’s sex-switch throughout.  IMO, it’s not unthinkable to take that concept seriously.

    @shinymckshine, @wibblywobblytimeywimeystuff   Now that you mention it, I’d have preferred for her to have cobbled up something quick and dirty as an interim solution (that would occasionally glitch), later to be replaced, with relief and delight, by a proper sonic created by the Tardis for this Doctor.  It’s not a cheat to have JoDoc make one, and it gave us a nice sequence of hasty engineering by the new and clearly capable Doctor; but I can also see it as a missed opportunity to do something more fun and more interesting with the sonic-less situation.

    But nobody can please all of the people all of the time.  I retain hope for better.

    #64648
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @shinymcshine  @ichabod    I have to agree here with @pedant and @miapatrick, that no incarnation of the Doctor would have been happy with Karl’s action. The fact that (as far as I recall) she didn’t take her criticism any further suggests that she understood Karl’s feelings while disapproving of the act.

    Also, the “test” was not to kill a defenceless victim, but to find a random human without help from among the population of an entire planet. Actually quite a hard thing to do, except that he cheated.

    As far as your story goes, it’s frequently the case that someone’s critical take really translates to “I would rather have watched this story”. I get that; I occasionally felt that way about RTD-era episodes. But we’re not the one telling the stories, we don’t own the show.

    Off to the Sofa now to talk about chocolate.

     

    #64653
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip

    ah, thanks for the clarification.

     

    #64654
    ichabod @ichabod

    @arbutus  . . . the “test” was not to kill a defenceless victim, but to find a random human without help from among the population of an entire planet. Actually quite a hard thing to do, except that he cheated.

    And flat out murdered several people who were not his target, and then mutilated them to take trophy teeth.  Tim Shaw doesn’t qualify, by himself, as a Big Bad, but he sure is nasty and was bent on being just that nasty to Carl on the crane.  See, if Carl had been one of the companions, already part of the new Doctor’s new team and beginning to soak up her style of morality, I could see her rebuke as legit.  But he’s not.  He’s a basically timid, currently terrified young man in the grip of an alien, threatening monster that’s killed his workmate already — why would he be willing to wait for this also alien and strange (to him) woman who’s bargaining with said monster and has no weapons?

    Do you think Pertwee’s Doctor would have rebuked Carl like that?  Or Tom Baker’s?  Under these circumstances — I don’t think so.  But further developments should shed more light on such matters.

    #64655
    Darth Valaryn @troygorsline

    I think a lot of issues have been made of the Doctor’s rebuke of the killing of Tim Shaw. I think it was just a means to spot light the pacifism of the Doctor – much like 12th constantly rebuking Clara’s boyfriend has he was ex military.

    Despite the Doctor being president of the world. Despite 11 leading military campaigns, I guess the pushing off a crane of someone with three detonated DNA bombs was just the step too far

    #64657

    @shinymcshine

    The fall needed more setup.

    Why? The story wasn’t about the fall, it was about the landing, and its impact. An already odd day for Graham, Grace, Ryan and Yaz was about to get a whole lot odder. And we the viewers knew something they didn’t, which made it rather delicious.

    One of Moffat’s strengths (apart from command of metaphor, plot dynamics, characterisation and humour) is that he didn’t waste time explaining things at length that were bleedin’ obvious to those paying attention. I am quite relieved that Chibnall is trying to take that on, even if there are a few more visits from Eddie Exposition than I like.

    Inventing non-existent characters, that apparently have future arcs all worked out is not really helping your cause…

    @ichabod

    Grace noted the double heartbeat immediately. Any sort of medical facility would have found the same and investigated further, probably with X Rays. Which you can safely bet UNIT would have heard about PDQ. And in every regeneration we have seen the Doctor (and other Time Gentry) is quickly fully aware of who he/ she is and what they are capable of, even when the navigation is a bit off. There is literally nothing in canon that supports the idea that the Doctor would remain contained, and about 50 years worth that suggests the opposite.

    already part of the new Doctor’s new team and beginning to soak up her style of morality, I could see her rebuke as legit.

    As I said, it was a rebuke for someone who had made a dick move on someone who was beaten and being expelled – then crowed about it, in his wholly inadequate way. It was a tiny analogue of Tom Shaw’s abject an cowardly inadequacy.

    Blimey. I like the rebuke even more now. Entirely informed by over 50 years of characterisation and also aimed at a little metaphor within.

    You know, I think Chibbers might have watched the show once or twice.

    #64658
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @wibblywobblytimeywimeystuff

    I think we might find out next week if there’s any problems with the Sonic/TARDIS interfacing – but I’ve always presumed that the Doctor is the original designer of the Sonic Screwdriver, but the TARDIS manufactures them. I think that fits best with our seeing the TARDIS produce new Sonics, while the Doctor consistently claims to have invented and improved the device.

    Logically, therefore, if the Doctor designed the original, then the Whittaker Doctor’s Sonic should have also been designed to interface with the TARDIS. It might be ‘designed’ in the sense of ‘will need a software update’, but I somehow don’t think she’d have called the device a Sonic Screwdriver unless it had full functionality. It’s not as if he/she hasn’t designed other weird and wonderful devices to detect whatever the script needs him/her to detect. 🙂

    #64659
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant and @ichabod

    There is literally nothing in canon that supports the idea that the Doctor would remain contained,

    Um. There’s The Wedding of River Song, where he’s regarded as a crazy Soothsayer and it’s Amy who rescues him.

    I think the better argument would be that the Doctor is rather frequently contained, but that if it’s for longer than a day or so, there’s probably a plan in view. There were several stories in the Moffat era where the Doctor was imprisoned for months – but it always turned out that he had a reason for not escaping.

    #64661

    @bluesqueakpip

    Um. There’s The Wedding of River Song, where he’s regarded as a crazy Soothsayer and it’s Amy who rescues him.

    In an alternate reality where time had stopped working. Kinda undermines a Time Lord, that.

    There were several stories in the Moffat era where the Doctor was imprisoned for months – but it always turned out that he had a reason for not escaping

    So he wasn’t contained, he was waiting.

    Literally, we need to break the laws of the Whoniverse or use a radical new meaning of “being patient”…

    Either way, none of this is about what happened in the episode.

    It’s not as if he/she hasn’t designed other weird and wonderful devices to detect whatever the script needs him/her to detect.

    Or had them left to him by smelly old aunts…

    #64663
    ichabod @ichabod

    @pedant  There is literally nothing in canon that supports the idea that the Doctor would remain contained, and about 50 years worth that suggests the opposite.

    The Doctor, fully in his right mind, was “contained” for four and a half billion years in the trap that was the Confession Dial.  I think that counts.  And I think the new female Doctor being both locked up and very disoriented in a mental ward and having to fight her way out of an unusually complicated and therefore dense regeneration fog to recapture her own strengths and escape could have been a tense, scary, and shocking situation — but too disturbing for the young viewers Chibnall is trolling for.  This illustrates what I’ve meant about the necessary differences between a deliberately mature DW (Moffat: “We decided to grow the Doctor up”) and a DW deliberately tailored to “youth” and “family viewing”.

    I was fascinated by Moffat’s DW.  Chibnal’s, so far, is a comic book with an interesting relationship between two or three of the companions, but a pleasant but rather flat figure as its protagonist.  I’m finding the latter worth a watch, but not compelling — and that really is okay with me, because I am no longer the intended audience.  I can watch, and enjoy, in the same casual way that I watch and enjoy other programming, but — just this far in, mind you — I don’t see myself as a fan of the show now, the way I was when the Doctor was Tom Baker, or Eccleston, or early Smith, or Capaldi.

    I hope to be drawn back to fan-status as the new series continues, but I won’t cry about it if I’m not.  12 was my Doctor, and those series left me satisfied and wanting more at the same time (which I think is how it should be).  For now, I’m in for the new Doc — bought the series on iTunes to avoid the godawful advertising.  I think that will help, for starters.

    #64664
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @shinymcshine I thought the landing was just fine. Grace and Graham (and Carl) trapped on a train, chased by a weird alien thingy, the Doctor crashes through the roof, and despite the fall and her regeneration confusion, gets straight to work. I find her landing in a crisis situation a little more interesting than a build up including careful parking. I’m just going to echo other people here and point to the appropriate forum for fan fiction – which is what this is. That’s not meant as a dismissal, Moffat’s ‘Curse of the Fatal Death’ was, essentially, fan fiction, and look where he ended up.

     

    #64665
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @ichabod the psychiatric ward is an interesting concept, done very well in Buffy, but doesn’t entirely hold up with The Doctor. There would be a physical examination, the two hearts would be noticed. There would have to be a reason, someone at the hospital suppressing the information, in order for her to be incarcerated, and, frankly, someone turning up with a fully developed fantasy world in which they are, notably, a pacifist, gun hating alien, would get a referral to primary care at best.

    Also, the confinement you mention was a miracle of technology put together by all the big bads in the universe to confine the Doctor (ah, doesn’t it just show how people, if they just pull together can forget their differences and make something really special).

    #64666
    ichabod @ichabod

    @miapatrick  someone turning up with a fully developed fantasy world in which they are, notably, a pacifist, gun hating alien, would get a referral to primary care at best.

    In the real world, sure.  In a show like this, where anything goes — all they’d have to do is to get round those problems in a way that convinces viewers who aren’t all that familiar with what would really happen.  And my point is that for many years, before the asylums were all shut down in the US, at any rate, to cut costs and appease champions of civil rights for the mad, it wasn’t that unusual for a woman to be locked up for somebody’s convenience — this is, in fact, a feminist issue, so I think it could have been made good use of, on the grounds of poetic license.  These things still happen — extreme gaslighting of us “weaker-minded” “hysteria-prone” “neurotic” women is not always a fantasy.  I think it could have been a very interesting approach, but of course, aye or nay, it’s entirely moot now.

    On voice pitches — I’m watching an old cop-and-crime show called “Bancroft”, and the woman in the lead role in that show has the kind of tonal register I’d find more convincing and more pleasant to listen to than Whittaker’s voice.  Also moot, of course!  To me, opportunities not thrown away so much as not perceived, and I’m sorry about it.  But I’m also a grown up, and I like grown up (in the sense of depth, not sex) entertainment.  *shrug*  Tough!

    #64668
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @ichabod ah but if we divorce it from the real world and plant it squarely in the Who world, we’re back to the fact she has two hearts, and people know about aliens and many people know about The Doctor. We’d also have the problem of a BBC program showing such a negative version of the mental health system which would be incredibly irresponsible. The only way I can see it is that she landed at some time in the past when a woman would be likely to be locked up for hysteria, but not modern day. Even then, as you say, they’d often be lock up for someone’s convenience. So maybe as a Doctor- Master story set in the past. With a lot of regeneration confusion on the Doctor’s part. I personally like the fact she fell into the train and got straight to business. Women are written as victims in a lot of films and television, and often when they, at the end, are not victims they start that way. And these are often important stories. But it’s nice to see a female character who is simply strong, turns up and hits the ground running (literally). And who, if not the Doctor, should start that way?

    #64669

    @ichabod

    As was repeatedly stated, he could have left at any time. So maybe add “stubborn” to “patient”.

     In a show like this, where anything goes

    So it would be fine to make the Doctor half-human….

    #64673
    MissRori @missrori

    @ichabod  I understand what you mean by not being as fascinated by Whittaker!Doctor’s world so far.  Like you I’m sticking with it despite some doubts about Chibnall’s approach, but Thirteen so far doesn’t have the broody, rough-edges magnetism and melancholy that attracted me to Twelve and got me back into DW after I lost the thread in Tennant’s first season.

    I’m reminded of how I haven’t been able to fully get into the current big-screen trend of cinematic universes built around the various Marvel and DC superheroes (though I really really enjoyed some of the early MCU films, specifically the Iron Man ones), as well as the other ongoing big-screen franchises of late.  It’s so much stuff to try and keep up with for what ultimately seems to boil down to a bunch of fights and crossovers, and the same hero’s journeys, and I’ve never really been a fan of rock-em-sock-em action.   Following Twelve’s adventures was exhausting enough for my emotions as it was!  😀

    #64677
    syzygy @thane16

    @pedant  @ichabod

    As I said, it was a rebuke for someone who had made a dick move on someone who was beaten and being expelled – then crowed about it, in his wholly inadequate way. It was a tiny analogue of Tom Shaw’s abject an cowardly inadequacy.

    Indeed. @shinymcshine it is history or characteristic for the Doctor to state: “you had no right.” I felt it was unnecessary for Crane to do what he did.

    I’m reminded of this when new Doctor falls. Viewers thought…. well,  this... and the opposite of this at the same time.

     

    #64678
    syzygy @thane16

    @shinymcshine

    it’s even worse than that. The computer inside it has nothing to do with primitive earth tech either. … In the 3 Dr.s episode, one had an algorithm running for 400 years to solve the unlocking of a wooden door… writer’s trivialized it and cheated us again.

    I find that a little ‘off’ with respect. I don’t see trivialising. You used “us” above. I’m reminded of Clara: “don’t speak for me” and “I have a right to my past” but I understand you feel it isn’t working for you. 🙁 That’s OK.

    From an in-story perspective we know that since the 3 Doctors episode the Doctor is many MANY years older so telepathically sorting the TARDIS and sonic isn’t unlikely. But it doesn’t need to go as far as telepathy just a different dimensional ‘space’ as the Doctor became more experienced. Missy mentioned this. Also, at this point we’re in the First 40 mins of a new showrunner, Doctor, composer, writer room so being “cheated again” is definitely Jumping The Shark.

    I think The Fifth Element wouldn’t have explained that latter term due to issues with unnecessary exposition in that particular work. So get back to me if you need to.

    T16. I’m the younger one (@16), Mum wrote the stuff above under her name Puro (timeywimey)

    #64687
    ichabod @ichabod

    @pedant  As was repeatedly stated, he could have left at any time. So maybe add “stubborn” to “patient”.

    Talking about the Confession Dial, you mean?  Okay, I do not remember 12 being able to “leave at any time”.  I remember that he could give up a certain secret and then be released (or not — it was by no means a fixed bargain).  Not the same thing.  If you are determined not to reveal your secret, you musst break out on your own terms, which he did.  If you mean the Pandorica, I don’t really remember that story well enough to answer.

    As for the “half-human” thing, they sort of did, didn’t they, with McGann?  And then just ignored it out of existence  afterward?  It’s what writers do: torture the hero/heroine.  They put 12 in the Confession Dial, and then found a way to get him out again without “giving up”; if they want to, and dare to, CC&co could “reveal” that she’s been half human all along (or turn her half-human mid-way), and then later un-reveal it again, or do some wibbly-wobbly to un-make her half-human again — and get away with it, if the story is strong enough.  It would have to be very strong — and a lot of fans wouldn’t accept it anyway.  So it goes.  Devoted fans wait for things to change again.  We all know how to do that.  I’m probably going to be doing it for the next several years, although maybe not.

    @miapatrick . . . if we divorce it from the real world and plant it squarely in the Who world, we’re back to the fact she has two hearts, and people know about aliens and many people know about The Doctor.

    So, it’s an asylum with a wing that’s secretly being run as a prison for mutants and weirdos with extra hearts etc., or for aliens.  The writers’ job is to figure out how to make the implausible convincing enough to fly (and a past setting or a Doctor/Master story could work well too).  I’ve done that for a living as a writer, and it’s an exciting challenge, and great fun, and it’s intended to pass on the fun to the audience (as much of it as the writer(s) can convince).

    @missrori  Thirteen so far doesn’t have the broody, rough-edges magnetism and melancholy that attracted me to Twelve and got me back into DW after I lost the thread in Tennant’s first season.

    Me too, but that’s kind of the point, isn’t it?  A fresh approach, a lighter touch, a more family-friendly show was promised, and I think that’s what they’re delivering.  There are things about it so far that I like fine (like the rivalry between Epzo and Angstrom), and I hope to love such things enough as we go along to not mind that the first female Doctor is nonetheless not my Doctor — but will be<i> </i>their<i> </i>Doctor for many, many others.

    #64691
    MissRori @missrori

    @ichabod You’re right of course. I do like Thirteen for who she is and if she isn’t my Doctor she can be that for others, as you say. 🙂

    #64697

    @ichabod

    Okay, I do not remember 12 being able to “leave at any time”.

    In that case you did not pay sufficient attention, which is far enough. Moffat’s writing is unforgiving of those who don’t. But it was spelled out clearly, in text.

    But anyway, it was Time Lord tech not a fanwank British institution (which for realism would be a 48 hour watch before being released in to the tender arms of Care In The Community) and which is Nothing. Whatsoever. To. Do. With. Anything .That . Happened. In. This. Episode.

    If people want their fanfic reviewed, we have a place for that. It should not be used to disrupt episode discussion.

    they sort of did, didn’t they, with McGann?

    And the half human thing from the movie is exactly the point. It was hated by fans. All fans. Everywhere. Moffat didn’t fix it, he just completely disregarded it, writing an minisode that clearly established McGann’s Doctor as a fully-on member of the by-then hated race.

    Look at the care that was taken at setting up even the possibility of a gender-changing Time Lord. Now you suggest species changing? How much set-up would that take? Because in fantasy you can’t just arbitrarily say “anything goes”.

    At least not good fantasy.

    If Chibnall decides to go down the origin story route I can see clear “wiggle” room for Susan to be half human. But I doubt he would be stupid enough to repeat a hated error.

    Anyway, back to what actually happened in the episode:

    It was the landing that mattered, not the fall;

    Grace was a toll and a warning in a way that Redshirt Of The Week can never be (not that they were redshirts, to be fair);

    Karl was a micro-metaphor for Tim Shaw, unable to succeed without props or a dick-move;

    Whittaker’s Doctor is most definitely The Doctor.

    Chibnall gets a bit hand-wavy with the speed that people can move around with conventional transport.

    Personally (and this is true of the next ep too) I’d like to see crisper dialogue editing. There were a few moment s of “You say your line, I’ll say mine”.

     

    #64728
    ichabod @ichabod

    @pedant  Okay, I do not remember 12 being able to “leave at any time”.

    In that case you did not pay sufficient attention, which is far enough. Moffat’s writing is unforgiving of those who don’t. But it was spelled out clearly, in text.

    I just checked “Heaven Sent”, looking for the You Can Leave At Any Time clause, and of course got sucked in and watched the whole thing.  I still saw nothing about CapDoc being able to leave the castle any time he wished, let alone a repeating element of that: he talked, rather, about being “trapped”, and his problem was how to get out without spilling some secret that he warned us he could “never, ever tell.”  Is there something perhaps at the *very* beginning of HS, before the title sequence?  I watched it in my iTunes library, where it starts very abruptly at Capaldi’s voiceover line, “As you come in to this world, another comes with you.”

    Our context for this subject was the suggestion of a different start for Whittaker, confined in an asylum while recovering from regeneration fugue that the (possibly villainous) staff reads as madness.  It’s bonkerizing, just *after* the fact of TWWFtE; I get that you don’t like it, but isn’t bonkerizing part of what this site is for?  A paragraph of plot summary doesn’t make a fanfic, certainly not any fanfic I’ve seen.

    As for the half-human horror, I don’t like it either, and I’m not suggesting that it be revived (gods forbid, in fact, with Susan or anybody else) — it’s an example of a far-fetched move in DW’s past (that turned out to be over-reach, and was dealt with afterward by perfectly sensibly as you point out).  I was alluding to  how elastic the boundaries can be in this show; you can try and fail miserably, but the fact remains: you can try, and if you’re good enough to pull it off, you can succeed (see also Heaven Sent).  DW canon is, as they say, loose.

    Personally (and this is true of the next ep too) I’d like to see crisper dialogue editing. There were a few moment s of “You say your line, I’ll say mine”.

    I didn’t see that somewhat clunky timing until re-watching Heaven Sent, but now I do, and yes, attending to pacing  would help.

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