The Woman Who Lived

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  • #45480
    Kharis @kharis

    LOL!   while I was posting my last post people DID comment.  Ha ha, I should erase my other comment.

    #45481
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @ramzeppelin

    Congratulations on providing us with a highly informative textbook example of ARSE.

    @kharis

    That’s an excellent spot. I think you could well be on to something there….

    #45482
    Kharis @kharis

    @cathannabel & @craig

    Thank you both.  (:  Tee Hee

    Now I feel better!  The Emperor himself is impressed!  Day made, really.   (:

    The pictures are perfect.  They really show the similarities.

    Here is A BONKERS theory.  IT is the same person, but those weird eighties earrings Ellie has on are creating a hologram, so she looks different.

     

     

    #45484
    Spider @spider

    @ramzeppelin I really was planning to listen that time but basically, I didn’t.

    #45486
    Arbutus @arbutus

    This was fun, and interesting too. I always enjoy the Doctor sans companion; it makes a nice change in dynamic, and it’s freeing for him, in a way. I liked the easy flow of the story, characters, and dialogue. I also liked the rather quirky soundtrack.

    I think we are being given a thematic arc of “Doctor’s Companion”… Missy’s remark about Clara as the puppy, Clara’s comment to the Doctor about “the next one”, and now all this fairly significant talk of all the ones the Doctor leaves behind, with Ashildr as their guardian. There is also the question of why the Doctor travels with a companion (clearly, Donna’s view that he sometimes needs to be stopped was only a part of the answer to that), and even the subject of friends and enemies that has been coming up since the prequel. I’m guessing that the end of Clara’s arc will examine not only Clara and her life but the whole, greater issue of the Doctor’s relationship with his human companions.

    Cool that he made reference to Captain Jack, his other immortal friend! And I wonder who Ashildr has met by the time of the 17th century who knew the Doctor?

    #45487

    Just one question. If the astute observation by @kharis pays off, then are there enough brownie points in the pot?

    (although, caution – we have seen Clara Mère played by someone else.. beware the chain-yank)

    #45488
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant and @kharis

    Brilliant spot kharis. Right now I’m thinking Ashildr’s ‘message’ is either –

    I know who Clara’s Mum really was or –

    I know who Clara really is.

    #45489
    Kharis @kharis

    🙂   I’m so glad we are back on how amazing this episode was and how epic the entire season has been.  Thank you @purofilion for helping us get back on topic.

    I recently went through a depression, and the things ME was saying to the Doctor about being trapped living and wondering why any of us bother with this predictable cycle of death and suffering, went through me head.  Her feelings of boredom, apathy, and general sense of “now what” that being 800 brought on mirrored real life depression a lot better than any other show I’ve ever seen.   Mix all that insight in with humour and a well-paced story and we get yet another great episode to muse over.

    #45490
    Kharis @kharis

    @bluesqueakpip Good point.  She does look smug and she is staring at the camera like she knows the Doctor will see it.  Could be a message.

    #45491
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @jimthefish, I enjoyed the episode quite a bit, but I agree that it wasn’t a patch on the preceding episode, and it was mostly the arc-related aspects that were memorable.

    @winston   It’s a good point about the notion of “pets”. We automatically take that as a belittlement, and of course it is in a sense. But having just lost a cat that lived with our family for nineteen years (longer than our son!), I agree with you that their absence leaves a giant whole. The “mayfly” comparison is kinder because it doesn’t carry the same baggage that the notion of “pet” does (to anyone who hasn’t had one, that is!).

    @countscarlioni    Yes, my jury is very much out on Clara’s eventual fate. I am 50/50 on whether she will end up dead or immortal at this point!

    @janetteb   I agree that I would love to see the Doctor travelling on his own for a bit!

    @ichabod   Speedy Sam, or whatever he was called, was quite engaging. It was a bit of a throwaway character, but the actor made him likeable.

    @kharis   That is a fabulous catch on the Clara’s mom outfit! I agree with everyone who has mentioned how helpful it is to watch this show with so many pairs of eyes (and brains!).  🙂

    #45492
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @ramzeppelin     Oh boy. Or, as we in liberal Canada like to say, with a slightly confused frown, “Sorry?”

    #45493
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @PlainOldDave     Clara did warn this new incarnation from the start that she was a hugger and that his views didn’t enter into it. I also had a sense that the Doctor, in his sudden expression of feeling, was reacting to his experience with Ashildr and her immortality, and re-engaging with what it was he values about his companions (currently, Clara). And there was definitely a significant look from him at the end, that made me think “Time is ticking on Clara and the Doctor knows it!” If he could have seen his coming loss of Sarah Jane or Romana as clearly as he obviously sees Clara’s, perhaps he would have hugged them once in a while as well. He has also been through a universe of loss since those earlier days. I don’t know about any of the other “posters of a certain age” around here, but I’ve grown hugely more sentimental as I’ve gotten older. And I didn’t even have a Time War! 🙂

    By the way, sorry if I’m spectacularly stupid, but I stared at your post for ages trying to understand what you meant by “PDA”. Thank goodness for google and Urban Dictionary. But I guess if I’m on record as being okay with Latin, I have no business being irritated by slang acronyms.

    @ichabod    I like your thoughts about why the “damaged” Doctor of Series 8 would be so averse to physical contact, and why the more balanced Doctor we are seeing currently might be starting to loosen up a bit.

    You’ve mentioned before, I think, the internet presence of Twelve/Clara “shippers”. This astounds me as there doesn’t seem to be anything in the episodes that would support it. But I suppose it shouldn’t surprise me.

    #45494
    Kharis @kharis

    I said in the last episode’s discussion that I thought Achildr’s tarot card was Strength.  After seeing how she handled the lion like character, I am even more sure that her card is Strength.  If you grow up in the tarot tradition a card is chosen to represent you in a reading.  My mother gave me Strength so I know a lot about this particular card.  My mother was given the Star.  I have not seen who will receive the Star tarot card yet.  No one fits….yet.

    #45495
    Arbutus @arbutus

    I’m interested that so many people think that Ashildr got her info on the Doctor from Missy. What makes you all think that? Clearly it’s a possibility; but it didn’t occur to me as a stronger than any others. My first thought was that she could have met people, over the centuries, who had met the Doctor, and been rescued or helped by him, and then watched him leave. She could also have met Mixmaster in a previous form. She could even have been present on some occasion when the Doctor put in an appearance in an earlier incarnation. He would not have recognized her in that case. (I realize this is a more complicated solution than “He met Missy”!) She could even have been hanging out in the middle ages with Bors and company, couldn’t she?

    #45496
    Kharis @kharis

    Description of the tarot’s Strength card: “Under a golden sky, a woman gently pats a lion on its forehead and lower jaw. The woman gazes down at the lion with a peaceful smile on her face and appears to be successfully taming this wild beast. The fact that Strength is represented by a woman indicates that this card is not focused on pure physical strength. She has the infinity symbol above her head, the same symbol seen in the Magician. Her white robe is that of the innocent Fool, indicating a purity of spirit.”

    It should also be noted the picture is drawn in such a way that the woman could be closing the lions mouth or opening it.  My mother always pointed that out.

    #45497
    Kharis @kharis
    #45498
    Kharis @kharis

    Have no idea how to post images, so sorry it’s only a link to a picture of the card.

    #45499
    Spider @spider

    @kharis Excellent spot on the clothes! Will be very interested to see how things pan out on that.  So very sorry to hear of your recent troubles. I have never suffered myself, but been close due to a family member that has been through depression. It is hard and awful and I wish you the very best. Sending you hugs – in a Clara way that even if you don’t want them you get em anyways 🙂

    Also, in relation to what @winston and @ichabod (and others, apologies if I haven’t referenced) said earlier re. pets. These last couple of episodes have hit a resonance for me and been both difficult but in a strange way comforting to watch. We took our two cats in for a regular check-up at the vets last week, one needed a relatively minor operation that we had been expecting but with the other, she had lost a lot of weight that we hadn’t realised and the vet found a lump in her tummy. They investigated and it cannot be removed. Test results on biopsy still to come back but really we are expecting the news to not be good – but for the moment she is bright, happy, living her life and is content. Watching her is sad but also makes me remember how much I need to appreciate all the small moments – something I had lost over the last couple of years just due to reasons – possibly a bit of disengaging from reality and .. ah, I dunno.

    So with Doctor Who the timing of the whole arc and episodes building up people who outlive mayflys etc. means that how the Doctor is feeling when he looks at Clara, is in a way very similar to how I am looking at our poor wee cat right now.

    I don’t know what the next few weeks or longer holds, but what I do know is that looking forward to a new episode is going to be an anchor and also being on this forum is going to help a lot too. I have always been one prone to not being able to enjoy the moment due to worrying about what might come next. Now I’m trying to change to enjoying the moments when they are there … because they will never come again.

    Oops, that was longer and far more over indulgent than I meant it to be but what the heck, posting anyways!

    (\(\;;/)/)

    p.s. EDIT @arbutus so sorry to hear you lost your cat recently (i only saw your post just after I posted this one). It is never ever easy, i give you hugs  -in a rather awkward 12 way cos i’m not good at it either.

    #45500
    Kharis @kharis

    I just had the most horrible theory. I mean horrid. Bonkers and horrid.  If Achildr is Clara’s mum, then does she become the Knightmare Child?   Could this be the long feared Nightmare Child?  Or is Achildr the Nightmare Child?  Oh boy.  Not a good theory my mind came up.  But on the note about depression, long term apathy and hopelessness can make a once good person very shrewd, clever and creepy cold.  The goodness in a person under extreme protection in the mind due to past hurts.

    #45501

    @kharis

    I recently went through a depression,

    Always remember, you are not alone.

    #45502
    Kharis @kharis

    ….plus, I think she still has the amulet.

    #45503

    @arbutus

    But having just lost a cat that lived with our family for nineteen years (longer than our son!), I agree with you that their absence leaves a giant whole.

    Oh gosh, know all about that, Utterly desolate when I lost mine (of fifteen years) before I had a chance to show her the new garden.

     

    #45504

    @arbutus

    Clearly it’s a possibility; but it didn’t occur to me as a stronger than any others. My first thought was that she could have met people, over the centuries, who had met the Doctor, and been rescued or helped by him, and then watched him leave

    I’m inclined to agree. As Me said, the Doctor has had quite an impact. Indeed, his mysterious, Zelig-like, presence was one of the conceits used in Rose.

    Edit: It occurs to me she could have met Jamie and known a lot more about him than he knew about himself.

    #45505
    ichabod @ichabod

    @arbutus  I don’t know about any of the other “posters of a certain age” around here, but I’ve grown hugely more sentimental as I’ve gotten older.

    I know what you mean, though I prefer to think of it as growing more thoughtful about things (and a little less impatient and dismissive), and possibly a little kinder.  I hope.

    the internet presence of Twelve/Clara “shippers”. This astounds me as there doesn’t seem to be anything in the episodes that would support it. But I suppose it shouldn’t surprise me.

    Most of the evidence, I think, is in S8.  They see it in some of those awkward exchanges, pauses, the body language: Clara, flirtatious, hands darting to touch arm or shoulder or back, and shared silences and silent stares into each other’s faces.  If you’re looking for unspoken, smoldering, mutual attraction on a sexual level, you can find it; and to be fair, Moffat did make statements in interviews (“Oh, he fancies her, all right, that’s all those snipey jokes about her looks, trying to deny it” etc., in direct contradiction to what Capaldi was saying) encouraging this interpretation (canny fox, of *course* — that’s what lots of viewers had been watching for re #10 and #11!).  The Doctor’s constant and sometimes frantic fixation on where Clara was and how safe she was fed into this — though to me it looked more like dread of losing the closest, most firmly planted contact in his life at that point, which he *was* in danger of losing to a mundane life with Danny, if he didn’t pull himself together.

    @spider  that was longer and far more over indulgent than I meant it to be but what the heck, posting anyways!

    I beg your pardon, what *do* you mean?  I am *way* more self-indulgent than you are!  <ggg!>  Actually, I know exactly what you mean about your cat — I’m watching my eldest one eat less and lose weight, and there’s a little bump on his his right shoulder blade that might be a sign of worse.  He’s only twelve or so, but the males tend to die earliest.  I’m trying to get a better grip on being appreciative of the moment, too, but not doing all that well at it (I also tend to jump forward to worry at possibilities up ahead; impatience, my besetting sin, is a great stealer of the lived-in moment).  The Doctor’s S9 situation with Clara speaks very clearly to that very difficult place of knowing (to some degree) what bad stuff is coming, but trying to hang onto the bright present that’s already here.

    Do you recall the movie they made of Lewis’s book “Surprised by Joy”?  Sir Anthony Hopkins played Lewis, and speaking of his wife (who died of cancer), said something like, “The sadness later is part of the joy now; the joy now is part of the sadness later.”

    Time travel of the heart.

     

    #45506
    SirClockFace @sirclockface

    @kharis You’re idea about the nightmare child could work and when I read it I thought that it was simply genius

    #45507
    SirClockFace @sirclockface

    Going back to the Doctor looking at clara after she mentions that she is not going anywhere I came up with a theory (that has probably been said before so apologies in advance). We never see Clara leave the dalek in S9E2 but we see Capaldi say “I’m sorry” exactly like how Tennant would say it before someone would die. We see her at the end of S9E2 in the same clothing, nothing different, but with no scars from where she was mentally attached to the dalek but she does have a straight line scar above her right eyebrow which was not there when she was in the dalek. I believe that the Doctor might have left her in the dalek because he could not have rescued her and either deleted all her memories so that she became the soufflé girl or let her go insane and make this up of her own accord. Because of what the Doctor said at the end of this week’s episode I believe the Doctor would have picked her up from an earlier point in her timeline so he always knows her fate (much like with River Song).

    #45508
    Anonymous @

    Good episode. I was apprehensive about this one, based on the preview and my lack of patience with historical settings of this period, but they absolutely nailed the Ashildr/Doctor immortality discussions and implications, I like the tack they took with her. Yes, the background plot was slight, but it was fine, and both it and the Sam Swift bits were there for a purpose. Good stuff.

    #45509
    Kharis @kharis

    @sirclockface Wow, that’s intense.  No, I have not read that anywhere else.

    #45510
    Pufferfish @pufferfish

    @kharis Welcome back, and thanks for the Tarot updates and the most brilliant wardrobe spot.

    I want the Ellie Ravenwood = Ashildr thing to be true, but Clara’s 101 places book from series 7 has ‘Ellie Ravenwood, age 11’ inscribed on the inside leaf. Possibly misdirection, or…?

    #45511
    SirClockFace @sirclockface

    @pufferfish Ellie Ravenwood could have been the name that ‘me’ chose at the time much like all the other names she has

    #45512
    SirClockFace @sirclockface

    Also linking to the other dimensions/realities theory we still have Mr Pink at the end of the universe who is Clara’s grandson but this could not be possible because Dany is dead. Hopefully in the future we will get to see them travel to a dimension/reality with Dany in it so that this headache is solved.

    #45513
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @kharis: Brilliant catch, bravo!

    @arbutus: Try this bonkers theory.  Where else would Clara’s mom be but in Missy’s Nethersphere?  Taking a life can open a portal to another dimension.  What if Missy is sowing the seeds for Clara to go into the Nethersphere, perhaps to trade her life for her mother’s, just like Danny Pink was able to send back to life the boy.

    Missy’s objective is to break the Doctor’s heart like never before so that Missy can get her friend back.

     

    #45514
    Kharis @kharis

    @jphamlore

    That is brilliant.  I really like this concept.  But what if Ellie really isn’t dead?  Have they ever said how she died?

    <span class=”useratname”>@sirclockface</span> This concept would certainly play into your Danny Pink/Orson theory.

    #45515
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @kharis

    Perhaps the most brilliant spot ever.

    As to what it means, my suspicion is that it was planted by Moffat et al for us (meaning all those who love seeing bonkers theories in the show). To be honest, I don’t think it has a meaning. Why? Because it is too deeply embedded. Moffat only drops hints of what is to come if everyone sees it, and can therefore see the connection in a subsequent episode. But this example requires the sort of bonkers obsession that only bonkers theorists like us can display.

    But that is one of the many reasons I love Moffat–he makes the effort to leave treats for obsessives like us.

     

    #45516
    Kharis @kharis

    @blenkinsopthebrave True, Moffat does play with us, but what about the Nightmare Child?  What do you think of that theory?  Same?  Just a coincidence, or throwing us some fun, or could Clara become the Nightmare Child?  Or even Achildr?

    #45517
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @arbutus

    Yes, I am with you–why does everyone think that Ashildr had contact with Missy? Please, to all those people out there, and as Amy used to say all the time: “Explain”

     

    #45518
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @kharis

    I fear I am going to come across as a bit of a party pooper, but I think that the Nightmare Child is actually too abstract and unknown for the bulk of the audience. If reference was made to tthe Nightmare Child now, in 2015, I suspect that most of the audience would be perplexed.

    Dear me, I do think I am coming across as the party pooper, so perhaps it is time for bed, at least in my corner of wildest Ontario.

    #45519

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    Yeah – I’m a little sceptical. She’s 800 years old, has been around a bit and even been a queen. A meeting with Missy would be sufficient. Not convinced it is necessary.

    @sirclockface

    The problem with Ellie is that her scrapbook of things to do started when she was 11-ish (as @pufferfish notes), so she would need to be an identity thief. Masie Williams is able to act younger than she is, but not that much – I assumed Ashildr was 14 or 15, but no younger.

    But the real problem is having had a different (and apparently older) actor play her so recently. Not sure the “suspension of disbelief” would hold up.

    #45520
    CountScarlioni @countscarlioni

    @kharis  Wonderful catch!!

    With Ashildr/Lady Me now looking out for those the Doctor abandons, and now at Clara’s back, I couldn’t help but think of an exchange from Deep Breath.

    Half-Face Man: Where is the other one?
    Clara: I don’t know. But I know where he will be. Where he will always be. If the Doctor is still the Doctor, he will have my back.

    And who did tell Ashildr/Lady Me about the Doctor’s habits??

     

    #45521
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @spider     Oh dear, I’m so sorry. I send hugs right back, in a much more Clara way as I am pretty good at them! My sweet Cima had nineteen good years, only becoming a bit wobbly and nearsighted in the last few; and he left us in the best possible way, after one difficult day and evening, falling asleep in his favourite place (on my son’s bed, against his legs) and not waking up. I suppose that having loved a small living thing and made him happy counts for something in the karmic circle.

    @pedant    And hugs to you, too. We always wish for one more treat for our small friends, don’t we, one more experience that we know they would have loved. In another month, when the cold and rain comes, we will be turning on the electric fire in the evenings, and I will miss him anew when he isn’t there to share it with us.

    #45522
    Kharis @kharis

    There has been lot of hologram use lately.  What about my idea of Achildr using a hologram, especially knowing all too well the Doctor would check up on Clara’s beginnings.

    The Knightmare Child is a long shot for sure, but they did bring back Davros.

    #45523
    nerys @nerys

    @kharis Brilliant catch on the clothing match! I never would have remembered that about Clara’s mom, much less paid attention to what Ashildr was wearing way back in the background. Bravo!

    #45524
    DenValdron @denvaldron

    Is anyone else surprised that the Lionman didn’t turn out to be a Tharil? Especially given the references to the Tereleptils and Captain Jack?

    #45525
    Anonymous @

    @denvaldron

    It’s afternoon now, so time for…jelly…but what’s a tharil? 🙂

    @kharis amazing spot. Simply devastating.

    Good to see our troll isn’t back. Got fed I spose.

    @arbutus and @pedant @spider sorry to all for the loss, or soon to be loss, of sweet animals. We don’t have room for a pet (does a fighting fish count?) and I wonder if that’s good for the boy. . A drink for all the pets we had, and will always remember, at the pub on me.

    I loved the article Mr P and I shared it -still holds very true

    @sirclockface a very good theory -and if you’re new here: bonus points! Well done.

    Cripes, I just observe stuff. No awesome spots from me…. 🙂

    #45526
    DenValdron @denvaldron

    For the record, the Tharils were a race of ‘Lion-men’ encountered in the Tom Baker serial, Warrior’s Gate. They were a race that exhibited time sensitivity, and could shift through time and space. They had once ruled a vast empire, where they were notable for their cruelty. By the time the Fourth Doctor encountered them in E-Space, their empire was long dust and the surviving Tharil were reduced to slaves. The serial is one of my favourites.

    Speaking of which, the Tharil, and the Leomen seen here, might both be related to the Cheetah People that the Seventh Doctor encounters in Survival, the final serial of the classic series. The Cheetah People exhibited remote viewing and seemed able to jump between worlds, and bring people back and forth with them. But they were also notable for their catlike cruelty. There was something fairly toxic about them, their predatory nature was destroying their world.

    All three races seem roughly similar – the are all catlike beings, notable for subtlty and cruelty, with a technology that seems to allow them to jump through space, and possibly time, although with specific limitations and advantages.

    #45527
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    It’s Missy who talked to Ashildr.  Here’s why:  Both Missy and Ashildr agree the Doctor should not have human companions.   Missy wants her friend back and thinks humans are beneath the Doctor; Ashildr thinks the Doctor is being irresponsible with the companions and should as a near immortal be man enough to bear his burden alone just like Ashildr has to if he’s not going to travel with a peer like Ashildr.   That’s motive.

    Missy has stated she has gone “up and down the time line” exploring the life of Clara.  Missy was the one who gave Clara the Doctor’s phone number and knew enough about the Doctor and Clara’s relationship to put in the newspaper the line “Impossible girl” to attract Clara’s attention.  Missy had the boy that Danny Pink killed in the Nethersphere, thus it is likely if Clara’s mother is dead that Missy has her as well in the Nethersphere.  That is means and opportunity.

    There are now two near immortals, Ashildr and Missy, who want to break the Doctor of his habit of longterm human companions.  Their best shot is with Clara trying to break the Doctor’s heart completely.  As Missy said last season, the Doctor would “go to hell and back for her [Clara].”

    And note the continuing theme of a life required to be taken to cross dimensions.  Danny Pink had to surrender coming back to this world so that the boy he killed could come back instead.  A life had to be taken to activate the Eyes of Hades to open the bridge between dimensions.  I think that Missy and Ashildr’s plan is to put Clara into hell, the Nethersphere, and dare the Doctor to try and get her back, possibly at the cost of his life.   One person’s life versus the millions on millions the Doctor can save.  Ashildr and the Doctor agree the Doctor is Earth’s protector.  Missy and Ashildr probably agree that Clara is the Doctor’s weakness.  So choose then Doctor, protect Earth versus the life of one woman Clara.  Sometimes all choices are bad, but one must nonetheless choose.

     

    #45528
    CountScarlioni @countscarlioni

    @ichabod  “I got the impression though that Me is committing not to looking out for discarded companions, but for the normal folks that the Doctor leaves behind when an adventure ends (for him!) and he takes off.  So far, Me has no means of traveling in time and space, so how could she “look after” Clara?  Stuck on Earth, I think her only option is to look after us after the Doctor has zoomed through leaving hurricane damage, large or small scale, in his wake.”

    Maybe this is a misreading, but I took Ashildr/Lady Me to mean her experience of being abandoned by the Doctor meant she was now watching out for anyone so abandoned, and that could, from her position in the selfie, also include Clara, at least when Clara is Earth-bound and in her `regular’ time. And Ashildr/Lady Me did bring up Clara in an exchange with the Doctor so she certainly remembers her too.  Presumably (?) Ashildr/Lady Me expects the Doctor to abandon Clara.

    #45529
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    At the start of the episode Ashildr has neither purpose nor happiness.  By the end of the episode Ashildr has purpose.  The Doctor has convinced her she still cares about the people of Earth and that he is also the one best suited to be Earth’s protector.  But Ashildr has lost all hope of happiness.  She no longer even has the chip to make a fellow immortal to be her companion, the one she gave the chip to being unworthy.

    To Ashildr the Doctor travels with his companions for his happiness.  But Ashildr will never have happiness, yet she will do her duty.  So by this logic, the Doctor does not need happiness either.  The Doctor does not need to have human companions.  So he should not.  That is why Ashildr would listen to someone such as Missy who could devise a plan to break the Doctor of his habit of having human companions.  That is how Ashildr could acquire knowledge of Clara Oswald such as Clara Oswald’s mother.

    #45530
    Missy @missy

    I enjoyed this one, except for the actress playing Ashildr.
    Is it only me, or do some of you think she can’t act? I thought she was awful
    Interesting the espression on the Doctor’s face, when Clara tells him she’ll always be there – or somethinglike that. I’ve got ot watch it again.

    Missy

    #45532
    ichabod @ichabod

    @jphamlore  I think that Missy and Ashildr’s plan is to put Clara into hell, the Nethersphere, and dare the Doctor to try and get her back, possibly at the cost of his life.

    @sirclockface  We never see Clara leave the dalek in S9E2 but we see Capaldi say “I’m sorry” exactly like how Tennant would say it before someone would die. We see her at the end of S9E2 in the same clothing, nothing different, but with no scars from where she was mentally attached to the dalek but she does have a straight line scar above her right eyebrow which was not there when she was in the dalek. I believe that the Doctor might have left her in the dalek because he could not have rescued her

    I like both of these theories — but in the first, we have the problem that when Danny returned the Afghan boy, he told Clara, about the Nethersphere, “This place is dying.”  It’s possible, of course, that Missy transported herself back there from the graveyard and managed to revive the Nethersphere, but I’m thinking, from the lack of any indications (so far) to the contrary, that that bit is over-with.

    In the second, yes, she could still be in the dalek and hallucinating the rest of S9; it just feels like a heck of a stretch to me (thoroughly appropriate for bonkerizing, of course).  Could Clara hallucinate the deaf woman’s experience of being followed down the corridor by the axe ghost for example?  Anything is possible, but . . . ?  Maybe I have missed a crucial step here?

    @countscarlioni  I got two messages from Ashildr’s last conversation with the Doctor, in the pub: first, that as he wants to keep an eye on her to help her keep her reawakened moral balance (I suppose) but that she will also (somehow — though he’s not on Earth that often, compared to his farther-flung adventures) keep an eye on him, presumably to step in if he shows signs of losing his own bearings about affecting human lives and the scarpering.  I didn’t see anything in there about feeling in any way responsible for Clara, though of course she might try to meddle if Clara were to be involved as a point of leverage being used by others to force the Doctor to behave badly.

    Second, seems to me her concept of “everyone you’ve abandoned” after, as he said, the battle — like her village, left with no warriors, and Ashildr’s own family, left with this resurrected young person whose appearance doesn’t change with time, or like these folks who came for a hanging and were scattered in panic by an attempted invasion instead, and might need some help, ah, *interpreting* what they saw so it makes sense.  But it could be the narrower definition, including only people the Doctor has personally saved and then left on their own — which could include Clara in future, though wow, is that unlikely!  Which doesn’t mean it can’t happen

    Anybody else notice that the guy Sam Swift was having his post-resurrection drink and chat with in the pub at the end appears to be the hangman — big guy, soft floppy hat?  Charming, that, in a morbid way . . . a reminder of rougher times, rougher social codes.

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