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1 March 2015 at 23:53 #38435
Not really. If you find my point risible, then you’ve probably either genuinely misunderstood it – or suspect you’re about to lose the argument and are trying to make your opponent angry by insulting them.
Or you have expressed with no conviction or clarity. I love it when you come over all teachery 🙂 but narrowing the argument down to something you can defend, rather than what the debate is ain’t winning in any but the most pointless sense.
Bit of a selective misquote, that one. ..Law & Order: UK
Well, you’d know all about selectivity. See above 😉 If you don’t want your choice of citations queried, the solution is in your own hand. L&A:UK adapted the original US stories and works to a tight formula (and despite a very good cast has never worked as effectively as the US version for exactly that reason). Anyway, argument from authority doesn’t cut it, because:
Hmm. I’m not entirely sure you’ve grasped the fundamental principle of ‘doing research’.
He showed no real signs of having done it (I know writers aren’t supposed to show off their research, but absurdity shows of its absence).
Not that this is, in any way the point, because
producer of the first series of Law and Order: UK doesn’t have a decent working knowledge of court procedure, police procedure and the British legal system.
I was talking about the rules of storytelling. That thing about ‘narrowing down’? Right there. As I said to @scaryb it was not about accurate/ inaccurate (that was your invention) but about credible/ absurd. The choices he made created absurdity and utterly shattered willing suspension of disbelief.
Two hot-shot QCs (one called out of retirement to emphasise her hot-shotness (also impossible, but dramatically quite acceptable)) became complete bibbling imbeciles, guided by a bibbling imbecile judge because Chibnall didn’t show the chops to find a more convincing way of making the point he wanted to make (which he has spoken about – really not guessing here).
The quote myself from when the episode first aired: ‘A handy exercise in “If, in order to get from A to B, you need to rely in Plot Required Stupidity rather than behaviour emanating believably from established character, it is a sign that you need to rethink the plot.”’
(In the movie Fury there is an utterly gripping (in the grip your armrest sense) battle between a Sherman tank and a Tiger. The Sherman is trying to get behind the Tiger because that is the weak spot. Except that idea is lifted from Kelly’s Heroes – the actual weak spot of a Tiger was at the side. The entire battle rests on a fiction. But it didn’t matter because it made for compelling action and the cast, directors and everyone else had earned the right to it.
Curiously, much later on there is a scene with a sniper which rested on a very accurate depiction, rather than the ‘Hollywood headshot’ – that scene drew more complaints because people have become so used to the filmic notion of the perfect sniper.
‘Written from truth’ does not mean documentary accuracy, but it does mean don’t create absurdity. That is where Chibnall failed)
1 March 2015 at 21:14 #38420@purofilion
The critical difference between Angel and Spike is that, once ensouled Angel was immediately and totally plagued by guilt and the need to atone and spent 100 years as such before Whislter offered him a path to redemption.
Spike never was. He was arrogant and even once he knew he had don’t wrong didn’t especially care.He still revelled in his bad-boy persona.
Also, I think it is a bit strong to say that Giles trusts Angel – I doubt he ever would – but he trusted (eventually) his Slayer, even when disappointed in her.
And then she died. And came back, broken (well, duh). And Spike exploited that brokenness. If somebody exploited my surrogate daughter I might be a tad ill-dispossed towards him.
1 March 2015 at 16:25 #38417Huge fan of Broadchurch. Really dislike Broadchurch 2 because it pissed away the strengths of the first one on a horribly mis-conceved courtroom drama. It isn’t (and never was) about realism vs fantasy, but about credibility vs absurdity. And the finale, for its genuine virtues, didn’t save it because time wasted in court meant no time to get to know the victims, other than one was pretty and 19 and the other was her kid sister.
I’m not sure I’d call Chibnall lazy (although that’s because I don’t really like that being applied to writers) but he does show signs of ill-discipline. He has the Grand Design, but when he discovers he can’t fit it into the episode length he doesn’t seem to know how to prioritise. Moffat is the master of this, save a few misfires. Chibnall needs to study him more.
He got away with it in Broadchurch because he didn’t lose sight of what the story was about. But in B2 he didn’t seem to know and just threw a load of plot at the wall – in fact it pretty much reeked of “How to set up the third part of a the trilogy”.
1 March 2015 at 10:27 #38412Well, that misses my point pretty comprehensively.
You’re confusing missing your point with finding it risible.
So complaining that the judge is unaware of the basics of law (or the QC’s don’t know their job) is like complaining Alexander Armstrong is flying a Lancaster.
Actually, it’s nothing like that. It compares an incidental detail with a fundamental plot point. As you will see.
Even setting aside that the vast majority of current viewers have no idea what Crown Court was, nor that anyone would confuse a soaps with reality, it is pretty clear that Chibnall has serious limits to his ability to execute. He doesn’t seem to have grasped the fundamental principle of “if you want to break the rules, first you have to know them”. The result was insulting and a waste of fine actors.
He could have achieved exactly the effect he wanted by taking a real world case – Ian Huntley’s attempted ambush defence – and used that as a template to compelling effect (and it would have echoed the main plot very well). Instead he relied on Stupid Because The Plot Requires It.
No matter how fast-and-loose (or not) you want to play with procedure (and nobody expects documentary standards – thanks for that straw man), as soon as a writer relies on Plot Demanded Stupidity, the said writer fails. As you will see when you watch it.
Either way, justifying rank poor writing by asserting “it doesn’t need to be realistic because Crown Court and Lancasters” is actually a pretty feeble defence.
1 March 2015 at 09:17 #384101 March 2015 at 00:05 #38401@purofilion
BTW, I think on the S6 set there is an extra of a panel discussion with most of the cast except SMG. If you want to see how graceless and full of ARSE fans can be en masse compare the welcomes for the cast and for Marti Noxon (who took a lot of flack for the dark tone of S6).
28 February 2015 at 23:57 #38399@purofilion
BITD
Oh, soz – Back In The Day.
28 February 2015 at 23:55 #38398So if you have any knowledge of the workings of courts, you will need to do a big suspension of disbelief and just go with it.
The problem isn’t the suspension of disbelief but that the story rested so heavily on the two lead QCs being such utter, abject, total and complete incompetents and the judge so totally unaware of basic of law that it felt like rather than suspend my disbelief, I would have to take my intelligence out and flagellate it with barbed wire and then pour acid into the cuts in order to distract from the sheer ineptitude of the plotting. When the show left the court it got some of its mojo back, but every single time it entered, right up to the verdict, felt like Chibnall was spitting in my face.
Juries are devilishly difficult to convince of things at the best of times – the will they/won’t they convict dynamic is there anyway – so why he felt the need to inflict this insulting load of old toss on us is beyond me. It was totally unnecessary. And the resolve to Sandbrook did nothing to redeem it (but that was because we really hadn’t been given enough time to give much of a toss about the victims because of the stupid, pointless and terrible courtroom diversion).
In Chosen the D&D scene was specifically designed to boost love of Amanda, so that her death hurt more. There was none of that in Broadchurch.
And that’s notwithstanding the fastest recovery from heart surgery ever.
So it doesn’t surprise me that a lot of the complaints would be about something where it’s blatantly obvious that the writer must know how a courtroom really works – and has decided, for some reason, not to do it that way.
That would be Veronica Mars, which was about corruption not the case at hand, which in dramatic terms was solved. This was a case of ‘can’t be bothered to come up with a credible way to do it, so I’ll just pluck something from my arse and hope the actors playing the two least compelling characters ever can cover the cracks.’ They couldn’t.
I am utterly shocked and appalled at the number of critics willing to defend that utter, utter shite.
28 February 2015 at 16:19 #38360@purofilion
So, not a fan of Kennedy?
No problem with Kennedy at all and I find the “Chemistry” thing a bit of a canard. It wasn’t a ‘chemistry’ based relationship, but need based – and when we got to the monster shag-fest in Touched everyone else was in pretty much the same place, except those two, because Willow’s magic broke Kennedy down: “You’re my way now”. Of course, it has absolutely no long term prospects – needs pass – but it was right person/ right time.
which bit in the commentary? The part about the flamey hand
Yep – he was saying how neither SMG nor Marsters seemed able to understand his direction, but I think that is because that had a firmer grasp on the relationship by then.
The issue of a soul remains a troubling one
Indeed – but I think it is meant to be. “It kinda stings”. I think Angel’s petty jealousy (he is – like all men – 12, after all) was amusing, but Spike was previously jealous and that’s what drove him to find the greased weasel. And yes, he certainly laughed as he burned. The poetic delusion was replaced by understanding and although I see no sign that he especially repented (he has no inclination to apologise for things he had no control over), he clearly wanted redemption. Also, the punch bag was very funny.
So much more interesting than all of the Spuffy bollocks.
The Power is an interesting one:
It is, indeed. I think if you take the posit “knowledge is power” then we get a bit Sun Tzu – The First had no corporeal form but could cause havoc by understanding people and knowing his own plan. But .his weakness is when that plan is understood by the adversery
BTW, I liked Storyteller a lot – the implosion of Andrew’s illusions, his acceptance of culpability, was brilliant, and Tom Lenk showed real chops- and then paid off as The Storyteller got a final, noble, outing to bring comfort to Xander. “She was incredible. She died saving me”.
Oh, yes – the sound effect when Dawn kicks Buffy in the shin: comedy gold.
Totally agree about the “Here’s the part where you make a choice” moment. It genuinely felt like the entire series had been built to that and Baseball Girls’s smile was wonderful. You just know the next hit is going waaaaay back.
Did you know that BITD, some fuckwits actually tried to equate Buffy’s action, in which she asked all the assembled Potentials what they wanted, with Willow’s tampering with Tara’s memory, or the men chaining the first slayer to a rock and forcing the essence on her? Some people don’t deserve good things.
28 February 2015 at 15:10 #38354In the words of Cordelia Chase, do you want polite or do you want sincere?
The polite version is that it is a selective (wilfully so) reading of the text to support a misogynistic word view that air-brushes out of nature the simple observation that the average male can easily (very easily) overpower the average female, so the “reverse polarity” example is a straw man set up specifically to attack the idea of a strong woman. Over the full run Amy and Rory’s relationship is quite clearly a relationship of equals rooted in love.
The sincere version is that this is the sort of arse-brained fuckwittery that drives things like #gamergate and the huge level of low-grade contempt for women evident all over social media that shamelessly uses false dialectic to promote an anti-women agenda. The world would be a better place if these pigs were permanently deprived of internet access.
Hope that helps 😉
27 February 2015 at 22:16 #38344(their my be above average typos – unfamiliar keyboard and more booze in the last two hours that the previous two months…)
27 February 2015 at 22:09 #38343Right, so, anyway, where was I?
Oh that’s right @purofilion was in a right old grump ;). On the @jimthefish – @bluesqueakpip axis I lie somewhat more towards bluey because, while nothing surpasses the sheer perfection of S5, S7 does an amazing job, under tricky circumstances (not least, not knowing until the show was on air whether this would be the swansong) and still drew a marvellously satisfying (and right) conclusion.
In Lie My Parents Told Me Buffy’s leadership skills had been cruelly exposed by The First (who Had The Power) and all it needed was a new Slayer to rock up and she was in trouble. It didn’t matter if her instincts were right, she was unable to take her army with her and, when Xander was maimed after bigging her up so much, the Great Outchuck was inevitable.
And also necessary. The shock to Buffy was, well traumatic, and Spike did something he could never have done without a soul: gave unconditional support (echoing Xander in The Freshman). Buffy picked herself up, found the Deus Ax Machina (stupidest Buffy debate: Ax or Scythe?) but most importantly realised that the Chosen One is a handy rule not unlike that which kept Tara’s mum in check.
The Taunter was able to work because he knew the rules of the game and when Buffy grasped them she didn’t just break the rules but invented a whole new game. Can Stand Up; Will Stand Up. It was NOT an accident that the last bit of that montage was Trailer Girl grabbing Dad’s fist (that was last the last scene shot in the enitre series).
The glance down the road after the bus stopped was, apparently, Tony Head’s idea.
Assorted jottings:
* Joss Whedon, bullshitter was on display after S7 aired. He claimed his original plan was to have Tara return (after noisy, obnoxious fan reaction to Kennedy). Problem: his original plan – still live until the fairly late shooting script that I have – was for Tara to appear to Willow in Conversations with Dead People, but Amber Benson declined on the grounds that it would be a betrayal of her fans. And also Kennedy was exactly the sort of forceful character that would bring Willow out of her shell. Disappointing that he didn’t have the courage of his convictions. Sometimes fans are idiots and need to be told that.
* Also on Joss, his commentary over the Spike Sacrifice scene rather exposes that by this stage (and with his attention on Firefly), SMG and Marsters had better handles on the characters than he did.
* And it is just as well that Joss’s lighting director saves him from his stupid “the fans can decide if they shagged to not” pandering. The scene is clearly lit as daybreak (compare with Buffy’s confrontation with First!Caleb).
But this is quibbling: the pay-off of relationship that began with “This isn’t real but I just want to feel” and ended with “No you don’t, but thanks for saying it” was sublime. I really though Joss was going to balls that up, but it was magnificent.
* When Faith took the girls to The Bronze the band was Nerf Herder, of Buffy theme fame. “Some say they are a sign of the apocalypse”
Before the “back 9” was picked up in S2, What’s My Line was a potential Series Finale. That ended with the Slayer no longer alone. Joss knew his story.
So:
Buffy TheVampire Slayer is not about Buffy, in the same way that The Lord of the Rings is not about Froda, Legolas and co and Harry Potter is not about Harry and Hermione. All of these stories have characters who are the point: Xander, Samwise and Neville, respectively. They have no special talents (at least relatively speaking, in Neville’s case) but possess unswerving loyalty and boundless courage. And they rise.
This is the problem with Campbell’s Hero’s Journey – it misses the point: it isn’t about the hero, but the impact they have.
25 February 2015 at 01:13 #38270@purofilion
He is, indeed, the only strong superpowers etc – but he had a trigger and rather than wait and let Giles do the mojo she declares it pointless and cuts him loose into a houseful of Not Actual Slayers, but traumatised teens (I can’t recall where, but I vaguely recall it being intimated that Kennedy is the oldest at 17).
She is trying to fall back on her tried and trusted approach – but there is too much going on and all she has are increasingly tiresome speeches and is viewing the Pots as a nuisance, rather than a team that needs galvanising.
It’s about power – and she has forgotten what she taught Dawn right at the outset. Who has the power?
25 February 2015 at 00:30 #38266@purofilion
Ooooh! Little Miss Snippy.
You completely missed the point, but quality rant anyway. I enjoy a good rant.
LMPTM is a terrific episode with great stuff about Spike’s back story which gets to the root of his poetic delusion. But the important arc point is the The Chosen One, She Alone… yadayada is proving a bit shit at being Glorious Leader. Form the Pots PoV, they are dying while she protects a vamp; from Giles’s PoV he has seen the breadth of the war, has found dead Pots and saved many and brought them to what he thought of as the safest place on Earth, only to see her try to lead by diktat and for the dying to continue. They are 14 or 15. Of course he was an easy mark for Robin, who has in own Mother Issues. In Showtime Buffy kicked the Turok Hahn’s arse, but it was Dawn in Potential who remembered the lessons from Lessons and showed Amanda how to use the environment in a fight. They think Buffy is a high functioning schizophrenic.
Buffy has done nothing to reassure or train the potentials (Kennedy has done more – and who might notice that?). Instead they see her defending a vampire. The First has played them like a fiddle.
And that will have consequences.
It is just as well there is only one Chosen One….
24 February 2015 at 13:57 #38260It’s pretty clear at the end of Lies that the trigger was no longer effective.
To us. Buffy didn’t know that (and even at the end of the ep it is far from clear – Spike has immense willpower).
Giles has pretty much been trying to be the entire Council single-handed (everything he was brought up to believe in was being systematically slaughtered and he had a close shave himself). And his Slayer seems more interested in protecting Spike than the Potentials and not too bothered about explaining. Not surprising that Robin could play him.
But trigger on or off is moot – it served exactly the purpose it was meant for: it sowed fear, distrust and dissent in the ranks.
24 February 2015 at 13:22 #38258@purofilion
It is worth reminding yourself at this stage whose name is in the title of the show. At the end 0f Lies… her judgement is totally shot to pieces. All that needed to happen was for a Potential to absent-mindedly tune to Hokey Ditties FM and it would have been slaughter.
She may be a superb guerrilla/ insurgent, but a general she ain’t.
(I will have much more to say when I can find a desk, but it is worth remembering that it isn’t Spike The Vampire’s show.)
That is important.
23 February 2015 at 13:20 #38240@purofilion
Is this the ‘scene’ of some discussion? I really get the impression that the fan base (the wrong one) wanted some
Yes, although that scene does matter – a lot – the point was that the reviewer completely ignored the main content of Selfless (best debut ever from Drew Goddard) and talked only of that scene – saw it as the point of the episode.
A friend once saw Michelle Trachtenberg on the Tube in London. Apparently she really is that hot and perfect in real life.
Him isn’t the best episode, but it is a fun tribute to early Buffy.
The trigger leads to an absolutely critical development, but not in an obvious way. I will probably be itinerant by the time you get there so will, to coin a phrase see you on the other side.
23 February 2015 at 10:43 #38239@purofilion
Was she doing more in S7 than she had intended to take on?
more seasons.
23 February 2015 at 00:42 #38218@purofilion
The scene in the church was one of several that Joss made late amendments to, but sadly is the only one that worked. I’ll dig out the shooting script and post the original when I next have a desk. You will hear the gears crunching as he does it later on, and can pretty much hear him mutter “the Internet loves spuffy must make internet happy”. Sadly he did not realise that “the Internet” and “the fanbase” are not the same thing. (There is an absolute screamer of an episode coming up that is entirely about one character, other than some c plot abou spike and Buffy – one review complete ignored the main plot to discuss the importance of the spike/ Buffy scene. Shippers? Killing’s to good for them ).
and much later on we get a timely reminder that Joss can bullshit with the best of ’em.
the good news is that the gear grinds are sufficiently rare as to make no real difference to the season, which I like a lot, and the ultimate message of which is, IMO, unarguable. But bear in mind that it is slightly compromised by not knowing at the start whether SMG would sign up for more, but there is a huge amount to enjoy (this was common knowledge at the time of first broadcast).
BTW, the farmhouse in England is Tony Head’s actual house and the horse is his actual horse. Paid for by his Gold Blend (and whatever the American version is) coffee commercials. They hoped to film more in England but the weather was terrible.
22 February 2015 at 22:23 #38204@whisht – just steer clear of the John Denver 😉 !
22 February 2015 at 22:18 #38203And why are you having to look so hard for the entire planet you hid?
Because Tom Baker told him to.
22 February 2015 at 14:39 #38196Thank all – very close to meltdown at one point!
21 February 2015 at 23:09 #38181@purofilion
And I do think the bullet would have hit Willow… Glad that it didn’t
Bear in mind it was fired from ground level- up, hit window, hit Tara’s spine, exits Tara’s chest and carrying on up past Willow right shoulder, spattering her shirt.
21 February 2015 at 23:03 #38180I fucking hate packing.
21 February 2015 at 17:29 #38171@purofilion
“This is real for me and I need to feel”.
I refer the honorable lady to Boyilion’s comment reported earlier.
20 February 2015 at 00:41 #38130@purofilion
The most likely explanation is that Ned Ryerson wasn’t available when it came to shooting the series. Am I right, am I right?
S7 contains probably the best debut by a new writer ever. The previous best being Normal Again, which was written by Whedon’s PA.
19 February 2015 at 18:05 #38119You did, and I concur. A cancer on political discourse.
19 February 2015 at 17:09 #38117@purofilion
As a break from the continuity, so to speak enjoy Wrong Willow and Ned Reyerson.
19 February 2015 at 17:08 #38116@jimthefish You’ll probably enjoy this, then.
19 February 2015 at 14:09 #3811219 February 2015 at 14:04 #38111Oops – wrong thread!
19 February 2015 at 10:53 #38105@purofilion
“it’s not Hogwarts. He’s a stalker, mum, get over it. Stop disguising him to please yourself.”
Heh. Just “heh”. That almost lets him off the spoilering!
It’s worth pondering that bullet?
Perhaps a Warren Commission is needed.
19 February 2015 at 00:29 #38089PS re Normal Again.
Certainly where I hung out, Normal Again was well liked, but the negative reactions were of two kinds
1. Those who didn’t like the playful meta of the ambiguity of the ending;
2. Those who (and I promise I am not making this up) were offended (in part because of the aforementioned ambiguity) by the very idea that Sunnydale might be fictional. Seriously. I am not making that up.
19 February 2015 at 00:26 #38088@purofilion
Perhaps Buffy could have worked out her destructive passions in less vulgar array -but Spike was always present.
You can skip the spoiler space now (I know you already have – just a prod for context). Buffy may be the Slayer, but she was still a vulnerable woman and Spike exploited that. It is fairly classic sociopathic behaviour. Whoever planned that arc knows the subject matter. “This isn’t real, but I just want to feel.”
And, Willow.
For all of her life Willow had someone to give her a reality check, to make her stop and think. For most of her life it was Xander, with whom she was silently besotted. Then along came Oz, kind and gentle and offering the restraining comment softly and with love. And we got a flash of dangerous Willow in Something Blue. Then there was Tara, extra flamey. First amazed and besotted, then worried and then betrayed, tampered with. “Willow can’t you see? There’ll be nothing left of me”.
Again, whoever wrote that knows the turf, even if the sails were trimmed from idea (“power”) to substance (“magic”).
And just at that moment, when Willow is desolate and open, along comes Amy. Wild, reckless and mightily pissed off at being a rat for so long, but also hugely seductive and instantly sensing Willow’s vulnerability. But Willow is fundamentally good and the shock of hurting Dawn brings her back, brings Tara back. She has earned redemption and been rewarded. (“Can you just be kissing me now?”). And then, and then….and then Willow’s shirt.
I have rarely been as shocked at a single scene as the flaying of Warren Mears.
It took the one person whose love for Willow is now entirely unconditional to bring her back. But what next for her? She has killed and she is still a mightily powerful witch.
And so back to Spike, who has never done anything unconditional in his life. And now he has a soul. And has killed, many times over…
Where do we go from here?
18 February 2015 at 19:56 #38082Of course another part of his motivation is that, right now (and as far as he knows including Willow) there isn’t a Scooby who wouldn’t stake him on sight.
18 February 2015 at 16:32 #38080To the extent that he realises that he has to do something and leaves immediately on his soul quest.
He thought he could change. He was wrong, because for all his Bloody Awful Romanticism it was his nature. But as far as he can tell the only difference between him and Angel is the soul. It is way too early to infer anything selfless going on.
18 February 2015 at 11:04 #38078@purofilion @jimthefish
The turn of phrase was “bored now”. Ziiiipppp.
Did you notice Amber Benson in the main credits? That was done by Joss as a tribute, since she had always preferred not to be ‘main’ so she could do other work.
I picked the “he’s going to get his soul’ thing pretty quickly. It felt too much like “LOOL OVER THERE! LOOK OVER THERE! LOOK OVER THERE!” to be anything else.
Of course, Buffy and Spike was only ever going to end the way it did and I think Noxon deserves huge credit for having the cahones to go there. Spike hasn’t become good, he is evil on a leash. As soon has he realised he could hurt Buffy he had no hesitation or qualms and did all he could to pull her into the dark and away from her friends. And yet William’s tone of self-pity is still there….
The ‘sail trimming’ was the realisation that the story logic meant Power Mad Willow would have to die at the end, and Willow was the most popular character, which is why the addiction theme was punched up more explicitly so they could give her an out. The gear change is a bit clunky, but on balance they get away with it (because, people in Hollywood being able to write ‘addicts’? Shocker!).
Now, note that her issues were first hinted at in The Witch! Now that’s arc building!
Also, when Spike road out of town his Yamaha was a ahamaY – Hollywood convention is left-to-right is leaving, right-to-left arriving and they shot it the wrong way round.
“I’d like to test that theory”
Coolest entrance ever.
18 February 2015 at 01:16 #38074@purofilion
BTW, did you recognise Halfrek? None other than Cecily, rejector of William. (I gather that is not officially canon)
OMG I’ve just realised what ep you have after the green dresses. Jealous.
18 February 2015 at 01:13 #38073@purofilion
Oh and you also have the most amusingly clumsy misdirection ever (but which, apparently, a lot of people fell for).
18 February 2015 at 01:11 #38072@purofilion
RILEY: Suvolte demon. Rare, lethal … nearly extinct, but not nearly enough. It’s close.
(Buffy starts to laugh.)
RILEY: What?
BUFFY: Sorry. It’s just … you still carry around all that James Bond stuff. It’s so cute! I forgot. Sorry. (fake-military) Carry on.
RILEY: We’ve been tear-assing through every jungle from Paraguay up, taking out nests. As soon as we put one Suvolte down, a dozen take its place. They’re breeders, Buffy. One turns into ten, ten becomes a hundred. This gets out of hand and there’s a war with humans? Humans are gonna lose.
BUFFY: So they’re like really mean tribbles.
WHICH IS IT PETRIE?!?!?! He contradicted himself IN THE SAME PIECE OF DIALOGUE. He couldn’t even be bothered to change scene to make a plot hole big enough to hide the QE2.
And from here the episode goes into a decline that not even Mrs Cardboard can save. It is raise above worthless only by the closing scene as Buffy steps into the light.
Compared to this utter fucking drivel (which would have rocked in the hands of Espenson or Fury) As You Were makes Beer Bad look like the love child of Dennis Potter and Tom Stoppard.
The good news is that from here on in the show pretty much rocks. You will be heartbroken and will be genuinely totally and completely shocked as a key character uses a familiar turn of phrase to horrifying effect.
Other notes
Dead Things had more than 6 mins cut for the BBC early evening transmission (something to do with the brutal beating and blow jobs, I suspect)
And it is now also evident that the trio are no joke. They may be idiots, but they are lethal idiots. Think “All fun and games until someone loses an eye” as imagined by HP Lovecraft.
(It is worth noting that it was around this point that the producers realised that the story logic was pointing in a particular direction and did a little judicious trimming of sails – remind me at the end)
17 February 2015 at 20:13 #38064@adt1957
The reason doctor who has been so successful and long lasting is the total avoidance of social issues and trends of the day.
Were you in another room when they were handing attention spans out? ‘Cos you seem to have missed all of the many, many episodes that delat directly – and sometimes not so directly – with social and political themes.
A little less sophistry would go a long way.
The reason the show has lasted as it has is because it has had the balls to constantly reinvent itself.
Gina Bellman remains my choice, but I would love to be surprised and delighted by someone I am unfamiliar with.
17 February 2015 at 10:52 #38054@purofilion @JinTheFish
Gone is a very good example of an ep that is not quite polished. It is not a single thing, but quite a few small things, even the sound mix was a bit off. I rather like Doublemeat Palace, despite its flaws.
I’m OK with Smashed/ Wrecked. It’s imagery of addiction is very true, if a bit high contrast, and rather hammers home that it is not the substance (magic/ Spike) but the escape that is the thing and how easy that is to exploit.
You are about to hit the episode that was most cut by the BBC for its really evening showing. Very, very dark.
W.E.E now accelerating towards you.
17 February 2015 at 00:03 #38038@purofilion
The ‘abusive’ issue will be a discussion for further down the road. I consider this part of the story to be written from truth, but it was a particular turn of phrase you use that interests me. Hope I’m still ‘on air’ when you get there!
The Giles arc wasn’t as well handled as it could have been – I think they relied very heavily on the viewer assuming a passage of time that didn’t really happen in “real time” and is harder to swallow on back-to-back DVD watching. However, in the character’s defence, I think it is fair to say that Buffy is not the only one with severe PTSD – and he stated as long ago as S2 how distressing he would find losing his Slayer. I think it is in-charatcer, but the writing relied a little too much on viewer recall.
BTW, the next run of episodes (the middle block, so to speak), despite some fab stuff, may seem to lack some of the polish we associate with Buffy – you might want to consider that this block was the block at various stages of production around 9/11. Some viewers refuse to make allowances for such things, but IMO, everybody who has empathy knows the feeling of not quite having your head in the game. It is, most definitely, worth making those allowance because the end block of episodes is breathtaking and..well, you’ll see.
Although you are heading towards Worst. Episode. Ever. at a rate of knots 😉
16 February 2015 at 22:34 #38035@purofilion
Whedon wanted the feel of real people being made to sing, not of professional singers.
Alyson Hannigan was really uncomfortable with the singing (hence the “I think this line’s mostly filler” line and a short line in I’ve Got A Theory)
Michelle Trachtenberg didn’t want to sing but was happy to dance (good choice given her reedy voice).
SMG initially wanted a voice double, but was talked around. I think that worked superbly.
James Marsters had (and I think still has) his own rock band.
Nick Brendon was wary but – as ever – through himself in with abandon.
And Tony Head, of course, is schooled in The Rocky Horror Show
But Emma C was apparently the biggest surprise. (She is very smart – and has often implied that acting is not her long term goal. She has a psychiatry or psychology qualification and did a excellent YouTube ‘Agony Aunt’ thingy called essenemma for a while).
There is an excellent feature on the DVDs about the making of (and also a sing-a-long version) that I don’t think is too spoilerly.
Oh, and the bride on the cover of the wedding magazine right at the start is Clare Kramer.
I don’t think you should worry about the idea of Spike being in S7. There is quite a ride to come.
You’d be amazed how many people hated the loan shark sight gag in Tabula Rasa. Humourless twats.
I am intrigued by your notion of a mutually abusive relationship….
16 February 2015 at 13:29 #38033Incidentally, BITD, someone did some calculations and concluded that Giles’s trip to England and back gave him about the time it takes to move from arrivals to departures to do all those things he said, including renting the house in Bath and attending a Watchers’ Council meeting.
More significantly, it is evident that the Council knows nothing of Buffy’s death. No new slayer has been called. Ergo, the line flows through Faith now.
16 February 2015 at 09:17 #38029@purofilion
Not only a musical but a brilliant one. The overwhelming reaction was massively positive. @cathannabel has it right about the haters.
Much truth sung (and nice use of the augmented fourth (or diminished fifth, I can never remember which way round it is) in Spike’s coda to Life (‘s A Show). It’s called the devils interval for a reason!).
“This isn’t real but I just want to feel”.
And “I’m under your spell” turned from a words of love to words of betrayal.
“The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.” Where have we heard that before?
The Mustard man was David Fury and the Parking Ticket Lady was Marti Noxon.
Michelle Branch made a bucketload of cash out of that song (it was used in Charmed at around the same time).
The Nerds are a very …. interesting… villain.
16 February 2015 at 00:04 #38021@purofilion
The BBC recently re-showed its 1982 adaptation of Smiley’s People. It was glorious and absolutely could never be made like that today. Alec Guinness actually had room to act.
15 February 2015 at 23:49 #38016@purofilion
Ooh, I hadn’t realised Fortitude has the divine Ms Raine in it too.
Time to hit totallylegitimatedownloads dot com.
BTW by virtue of impending house sale and short-term no-fixed-abode status,I may be off the air for a bit, so it is quite important that you get through the 4 eps after Flooded as soon as – I am anxious to see your reaction to what happens
*twirls moustache*
*doesn’t have moustache*
*oh well*
15 February 2015 at 22:37 #38014@purofilion
So, what is evidence of a soul?
It is fairly well established in the show that the soul is something distinct from the vessel that contains it. Spike does not have a soul and we have been given every reason to think that as soon as he is de-chipped he will revert.
(except, well the show and ….Willow gone Voldermort -which is actually very worrying).
Voldemort is a pussy alongide someone who when toe-to-toe with a a god and hurt her.
She has also got a real bad case of confirmation bias – but then Angel is the only example she knows.
Tara was concerned and in her own way so was Anya – but Willow stepped up when Buffy went catatonic so she is the natural authority figure, given that Giles is clearly grieving.
(Incidentally Giles is in the show less this season because Tony Head wanted to, you know, see his kids occasionally. This does set up the single coolest scene in ALL TV HISTORY, however.)
A wee bit of spoiler space
IF YOU HAVEN’T READ ‘FLOODED’ WAIT UNTIL YOU HAVE BEFORE READING ON
You have been warned.
This is, to me, key dialogue and was obviously so on first viewing (possibly because I am very familiar with the pattern). File for future reference
BUFFY: Why are you always around when I’m miserable?
SPIKE: ‘Cause that’s when you’re alone, I reckon. I’m not one for crowds myself these days.
BUFFY: Me neither.
SPIKE: (friendly smile) That works out nicely then.
15 February 2015 at 13:26 #38012@purofilion
I noticed the DVD revert to misleading layout. This is the correct running order
Bargaining pts 1 & 2
After Life
Flooded
Life Serial
All The Way
Once More, With Feeling (68 min)
Tabula Rasa
Smashed
Wrecked
Gone
Doublemeat Palace
Dead Things
Older and Far Away
As You Were
Hell’s Bells
Normal Again
Entropy
Seeing Red
Villains
Two to Go (1)
Grave (2) -
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