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9 May 2013 at 21:01 #8385
From the Fall to Gerry and the Pacemakers, via Terrahawks and Frippery- this thread is as eclectic as Who itself 😉
PS @whisht I really don’t think that can be the same Zelda from Galaxy 4, LOL. Or maybe she just didn’t age very well!
9 May 2013 at 20:55 #8384@whisht – nice idea re no 1s for significant dates – bit scary pre 1960s though, so I’m staying on a Bonzo’s groove with their hit single (and accompanying video – a rare thing in 1968) and a song that may or may not be inspired by the good Doctor. Am astounded that these guys were the resident band on afternoon children’s comedy show, along with several Pythons. But the Beatles liked them, so that helped!
(Hmmm, seem to have lost my embedding knack 🙁 (ah, no found it again – Note to self – make completely separate line for the link))
9 May 2013 at 20:36 #8382@whisht A very belated return to your Mahalia Jackson – (a big thank you for the clip, she’s always great) – this is Odetta with Waterboy (River – Dr.. (OK, it’s not even tenuous, LOL)). If you’ve not come across her, she’s also amazing – and inspiration to a certain Mr Zimmerman in his early days as a protest singer. This is very short but very powerful – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xscVJAYL0wo
9 May 2013 at 20:26 #8378@satsumajoe Damn! That sounds right. I was off on possible Chameleon Arch sidetracks there… (And this is the Tardis in basic mode)
9 May 2013 at 20:24 #8377And this one for @phaseshift – lots of Masters, with a particularly good Delgado: http://time-lord-rassilon.deviantart.com/art/Masterpiece-117675035
9 May 2013 at 20:22 #8374It’s very easy to get lost in Deviant Art if you start to follow the Who trail (see also several posts by @jimthefish @juniperfish etc on page 1 or 2 of this thread). But I particularly liked this one (@htpbdet I think you might too) – http://time-lord-rassilon.deviantart.com/art/Time-To-Smoke-117764840
(can’t embed the pic, sorry, just the page)
9 May 2013 at 20:18 #8373Love the cartoons Wolfweed, esp “exterminatory”.
Was looking at the Deviant Art link @jimthefish posted above – blueprints to the Tardis etc – amazing stuff, worth a look. He’s also recently posted a screen grab of the Tardis display (from JttCotT), flashing the warning. He claims you can see the hexagonal structure (see his blueprints) faintly in the background, can’t say I’m convinced tho. But hey! He’s Rassilon so who am I to argue. http://time-lord-rassilon.deviantart.com/art/Journey-to-the-centre-of-the-tardis-schematic-370478575?q=gallery%3Atime-lord-rassilon&qo=0
But there’s a curious thing that I didn’t spot when watching (probably others have 🙂 ). There are only a very few named areas – console room, library, with I think, the Observatory further on (bottom right), the EoH, engine overload message. And – Arch-Recon. Anyone got any suggestions about that? (Apologies if it’s been discussed elsewhere, and I missed it). No swimming pool 🙁
9 May 2013 at 20:04 #8371@Wolfeed – that’s a great pic. Shame it’s (nearly) out of date already, LOL. Drat these monsters, always wanting a new look! Love that they’ve included all the little cybermats. Now cybermats are SCARY! And yes, what’s with the horse’s head… Godfather Cybermen???
9 May 2013 at 16:04 #8335@osakahatter – my sympathies go out to 6 & 7 – lumbered with possibly the worst companions ever. (Kate O’Mara dressing up as the red haired squeaky one was the worst and I nearly never watched another episode again!) I was only dipping into Who occasionally by that stage, tho I had a soft spot for McCoy.
Does this mean the episode with John Hurt is gonna be rubbish!?
This phrase does not compute, LOL 🙂
9 May 2013 at 15:15 #8332@ardaraith (The Snowmen)
why confuse the issue with the coda? hmm
Good question – it establishes Clara’s alive in contemporary time, she finds her gravestone and makes the cheery remark about ghosts
9 May 2013 at 15:10 #8331You can’t move for Claras these days, LOL. Incidentally Ada Lovelace had the programming language named after her because she was regarded as the first computer programmer (just thought I’d add that detail 🙂 )
So.. the Doctor – bit Byronic you think?
Mad, bad and dangerous to know
9 May 2013 at 15:00 #8328@ardaraith Clara does seem to have a habit of being associated with mother-less families, including her own. She turns up and the incumbent female carer (including the governess) dies soon after, or just before. Angie looks as if she’s mid-teens, which means her friend (the mum who died) must have been 30+ (nearer in age to the father).
Incidentally re nanny – I think it’s a word which is in more common usage in Scotland, not that I have a lot of experience with them. But eg a name for a grandmother might be Nana, so nanny doesn’t sound particularly odd here.
9 May 2013 at 14:53 #8326Thanks everyone for thoughts on companions and the Dr’s morality. The Dr needs companions/assistants, not because he needs a moral compass, but because he needs a different perspective sometimes, specifically that of a short lived, inquisitve, creature like humans, especially the ones with a strong sense of empathy. Sometimes in looking at the big picture he can miss the small, but important details eg Amy in TBB.
Definitely took a big hit with the Time War, but presumably no other option but total obliteration of the universe, time and everything. I’d say the Dr’s made his morality pretty clear each season and it’s been pretty consistent over the years. As @htpbdet pointed out in his masterful summing up the Doctor is about embracing change, other creatures’ points of view and not pre-judging who he meets – not all monsters look like monsters (and vice versa). He’s (still) excited about seeing all the things the universe can offer – the little glimpses Moff in particular offers of 11’s life in lightening fast montages which suggest he lives life on a very different level from humans 🙂
Most of the time he’s still an explorer/adventurer but occasionally we get a glimpse of authoritative Doctor – a role Matt has been coming into particularly strongly – recent assertions of “I’m a Time Lord” (to remind us that this is a being capable of pushing the buttton/pulling the switch to condemn the rest of his race (and the Daleks) to the time lock, when that is the only possible thing to do. There will always be a doubt though – what if he missed something?
Moff is on record as saying that the journey happens to the companions, that the Dr – while he can be threatened, imprisoned etc – has to stay essentially recognisably “the same” (including being seen to have continuing atoms (ie no replacing him in a permanent way with ganger, duplicate, tesselecter etc)). There should always be a mystery to him. OTOH rules 1-5… All I can say is he’d better stick to that!!
Introducing “families” allows us to think more about how we would react if we had the chance to travel in the Tardis. It’s about the effects the Dr has on everyone (good stuff included eg Wilf), and also helps to highlight his alien qualities. Sometimes he just thinks and acts differently from himans. Because he’s not. Since season 5, his alternative family have been introduced, and they are a very diverse group (Vastra et al). Maybe they will take a trip in the Tardis one day, there’s no reason why not. Meanwhile, here’s to frequent cameos.
8 May 2013 at 14:11 #8219@whisht I didn’t rule out alternative/crashing time streams and/or false realities etc I just don’t think he’s going round and round re-doing things till it’s right – except for JttCotT – and there were noticeable clues to it happening in that episode which I don’t see in the other ones. I’ve been known to be wrong before though.. in fact I don’t remember actually being right yet hehe.
<Hmmm, Chekhov again, huh? He wrote Three Sisters (3 Claras…!) Goes off to reread Chekhov to fish for more clues>
8 May 2013 at 11:47 #8203passing trivial thoughts – Mrs G’s staircase (and subsequent fall) reminded me of the staircase to the Tardis in the Snowmen, and Clara’s fall. Mrs G’s looked more convincing
8 May 2013 at 11:41 #8202I’m not convinced there’s much timelooping – I think that can only happen in special circumstances – eg when in an exploding Tardis. (An on the G-Blog – which has now closed CH, but JttCotT is still open, along with a random few others)
8 May 2013 at 11:33 #8201Thanks @phileasf – it would be very unusual for Moff to give away too much detail – as you say, if he’s referenced it, then it’s more likely to mean it’ll all happen in first 3 mins! (OTOH even experienced people get tripped up by the press occcasionally inc eg on things like it’s for the June issues (but it’s out in May!)) Am avoiding all such stuff for now, including the big red flashing button that is the Spoilers thread, LOL
8 May 2013 at 11:28 #8200And given that pic’s been posted everywhere (including as the avatar for this thread (ah-hem!)) I’m suspicious it won’t turn out to be what it looks like. Or maybe it’s a triple bluff – a much bigger threat is just out of sight, around the corner in episode 13. IMHO 🙂
8 May 2013 at 11:24 #8199thanks to whoever posted that link to the Asylum prequel – sorry, can’t find it or the thread now, but seemed appropriate to comment on here. It’s a fascinating link, and like many others I hadn’t seen it before. OOOOH, multiple realities/dream manipulations, a monk-ish wraith, children’s voices… very dark in tone. Blue bow tie 😉
8 May 2013 at 11:18 #8197Am trying to avoid trailers, pics etc as much as poss <I know, I know, what the hell am I doing in here then!>
Two things that really struck me about the Dr’s new face decorations –
1 the similarity to the Gunslinger “tattoos” (which turned out to be fake (self-administered camouflage))
2 the black eyepatches which were heavily trailered before TWoRS, which had us abuzz with the possibility that the Dr and crew had been “taken over” somehow – but were in fact “good” things – again self-administered
3rd time unlucky…?
8 May 2013 at 11:08 #8196Nice links @wolfweed – the pics and the DWNews – reading how our fav show developed is fasciniating – esp when you realise the directions it could have gone. Biddy, Cliff and LOLA, FFS!
8 May 2013 at 10:00 #8193@craig – oh, sorry – one more thing! (you’re right – I’m Jfish in disguise hehe)
Can you add the How to Tag someone – @name (I know you’ve mentioned it in spoilers etc but maybe good to have a separate line about it) – a friendly instruction.
And that there’s a 4 minute edit window before posts are timelocked forever(ish)
And a link to the page of smilies that @phaseshift posted – I meant to make a note of it and I forgot 🙁
Pretty pleeeease?
8 May 2013 at 09:53 #8192Don’t have much time to hang about here at the moment (deadlines again) but had to say thank you for @htpbdet for sharing great (happy and sad) memories, so eloquently. I squeeeed* at the stories you name-checked (I’m a few years behind you I reckon, but was there from the start) and Hartnell was mine. A pesky bit of grit my eye as well. I hope NuWho is doing the same for some youngsters now as the old ones did for you.
*@juniperfish – you have a lot to answer for!! 😉
8 May 2013 at 09:48 #8191@craig @whisht It’s still organic! Think of it as a sign to stop people bringing in artificial fertiliser and weedkiller.
If you don’t think it would make it too long, you could add @bluesqueakpip‘s Dalek and Cyberman keep out! warning 🙂 LOL @ “afternoon tea with the Doctor”
@whisht re the Groan – that was @jimthefish‘s fave Trollsheep (I suspect he just barks because he can). He wouldn’t like it here, nesting suits him much better.
6 May 2013 at 14:06 #8017Can’t think where Dan Martin gets the idea that we have “intense speculative discussion on everything but what’s happening in the episodes”
harrumph!
😉
6 May 2013 at 13:59 #8014Educational indeed, love it 🙂 Gruesome stuff, and way before Damien Hurst
And thanks for the help re how the Dr gets “normalised”. It makes sense that there would be machine to reverse the process since Mrs G’s plan involved using her “Adam and Eves” to repopulate the planet. So, wild guess – the process was intended to a) immunise and in some cases b) preserve like a waxwork for beautiful under-glass displays, possibly in suspended animation. It didn’t work on the Dr cos he’s not human, it did work on Clara – she wasn’t one of the red rejects – but the Dr could reverse the process to revive her (as intended in longer term by Mrs G).
And the Dr knew where to find the reversing cubicle cos he spent a fair bit of time snooping about before he got caught. If it’s just a hard outer casing then steaming it off also makes sense.
re Ada – I think her motivation is clear – she’s desperate to love and be loved. The Dr, although he seems like a monster, shows her a tiny scrap of common humanity when their hands touch. She gets so little back – she doesn’t know him, he can’t speak, he can hardly move, yet it’s so much more of a family than she’s exerienced before.
PS LOL @ Red or Dead
5 May 2013 at 14:34 #7888Last thought for now – when the Dr meets Clara when she’s a 9-ish year old – in the prequel on the swings – he’s dressed the way he was in the first 2 series. Now I know he selects his new costume in BoSJ, but he’d already swapped the tweed jacket for a more Victorian look in Snowmen… (Blue bow tie btw); Am I right that when he drops in on her past in BoSJ he’s in the new costume?
5 May 2013 at 14:17 #7887@juniperfish And agree re Dan’s link. We might not be many in number but he knows his blog would be a thoroughly less pleasant place if we closed the watery portal and stayed on this side. I like his blog. (And am not averse to the odd tussle, LOL)
5 May 2013 at 14:14 #7884@jimthefish <little hug for bruised fish-soldier>
The key for Trollsheep et al is not to feed them – they love to get the last word (Incidentally it made me smile to see that @bluesqueakpip got the last comment on that particular conversaton 🙂 ) And don’t get personal back (I know, it’s hard)
@juniperfish – LOL @”The Gratuitous Snark” (a lost work by Lewis Carroll?); So long as they are not Boojums (tackle with care or you might disappear!)
5 May 2013 at 13:55 #7881Nice article on BBC site today, not Who related, but does consider some themes in common inc ghosts, parallel universes etc (I’m biased – I loved lots of De La Mere, esp The Listeners; very much of his time, but he does spooky really well)
5 May 2013 at 13:49 #7880@Shazzbot – salt and slugs – very true. When she slipped the salt down her dress it was just after the reference to the superstition about throwing salt over your shoulder (to poison the “devil” who sits there).
5 May 2013 at 13:45 #7879PS Anyone got any idea how the Dr managed to de-crimson himself and Clara? Is the crimsoning just a stiff shell that you can wash off? (although Clara wasn’t crimson, the process had apparently worked on her).
I like the call from someone above re Clara mirroring the Dr’s action in releasing her by throwing a chair thro her glass wall (different dimensions again? Shattering walls/illusions?)
And I loved Mrs G’s organ rotating to reveal a hidden rocket control panel – very 60s/70s concept (Who and many others) – Vincent Price also came to mind 🙂
5 May 2013 at 13:40 #7878I’m with you on occcasionally interlocking timestreams/pocket universes for duplicate Dr theories.
I also think crimson Dr this week introduces the concept of the Dr being incapacitated, and needing rescued. Fits with theory of the Dr not being where he/we think(s) he is – cue last 50 years of memory uploads to renew him. Doesn’t negate what’s happened since Hartnell (ie different from it was all a dream solution), but provides a clean sheet to start the next 50.
And who’s been taking the photos? (Stealing of souls…?)
5 May 2013 at 13:09 #7875@haveyoufedthefish – ah, if only 😉
5 May 2013 at 13:08 #7873Spoilers – agree with @Shazzbot – and I know quite a few others on here do too. I think it needs to be spelt out what could be considered a spoiler – not everyone is going to feel the same, one person’s spoiler is simply another person’s advance trailer – and to please please please not to introduce ANYTHING you have seen on a spoiler (pic, trailer etc) into a current thread. In the nicest possible, non-dictatorial way of course 🙂
That’s a good idea re opening the following week’s thread early for trailers etc
5 May 2013 at 12:58 #7869Kissy Dr –
With Jenny – Dr is exuberant about being released and being able to move again; he does melodrama-style sweep-her-off-her-feet type kiss (cf classic (1940s (hmmm!!)) Hollywood depictions of Victorian romance with likes of Errol Flynn, Clark Gable etc etc); Jenny slaps him, LOL. Introduces kissy Doc, with subtext to remind us re Jenny/Vastra relationship (wink from the writer/director). Also, the Dr knows about Jenny’s preferences, so we shouldn’t read too much into it, I think. So the kiss with Clara could be seen in a similar light.
I have no problem at all with a flirty Dr, I just don’t think he’s going to get sexual with someone who has a lifespan of minutes compared with him. It’s also more than understandable that the companions would see him as very desirable – he seems the very definition of the ultimate desirable male (I think Rory at one point wonders how he can possibly compete (and yet Rory ends up with his girl at the end, as Amy grows out of her crush and forms a more realistic/more equal partnership))
Maybe that’s why Clara doesn’t travel with him all the time – to keep down some of the criticism and questions about bedroom arrangements! (And obv to get feedback from her charges as well).
5 May 2013 at 12:45 #7862@OsakaHatter Perfect description of “North” I reckon! Thank you
5 May 2013 at 12:40 #7858Interesting comments on the anachronistic music choices. Reminded me a bit of the newspaper in the Snowmen (1940?). Mrs G’s meeting was in the tradition of the temperance society meetings, evangelist meetings etc. However her eugenics philosophy reminded me of the Nazis in particular (1940s again?)
Also – 2 episodes in a row there has been a character who is blind, but who “sees” morality better than the other characters they are closest to.
Detail – Mr Sweet – Lady G sneakily feeding him some salt at the dinner table (Does he feed on the salt in her sweat?). She takes care of Mr S better than she does her own daughter, whom she exploits (exhibits her as a freak), treats her as a slave, shows no love whatsoever etc). She says v specifically that her relationship with Mr S is “symbiotic” – wonder what each gets out of it. Is there also a psychic link? Did she start being monstrous to her daughter only after Mr S turned up, or was it always the same? He is literally close to her bosom, he has supplanted her child.
Mr S is small, semi-cute but with little razor-sharp-looking teeth. A little bit phallic, a bit like a foetus. Its pink nakedness looks vulnerable rather than threatening to me. And HOW did it get from prehistoric times to the 19th century without previously being detected? Are there more of them, scattered undetected in dark corners of our world, or was it “planted” here? Maybe its horror is underplayed to underline the full horror of Mrs G’s monstously unhuman behaviour.
Memories/lack of – Ada seems unaware of her life before being blinded, and doesn’t remember the details of how it happened
5 May 2013 at 10:52 #7845@Shazzbot – This forum is located in an alternate universe, where time moves at a different rate than in the real world. LOL
@craig, @phaseshift – maybe you could add that warning somewhere (time in the real world moves much faster than in here, but your body ages at the usual rate, haha) And thanks both for your vigilance at the gates!
4 May 2013 at 22:35 #7807ardaraith OR… the Doctor is the artificial construct and, by travelling with humans (for the last 50 years) learns empathy and how to become “a real boy” (like Pinnocho (ref’d earlier this series))
4 May 2013 at 22:27 #7805Also, did RoA take place in past. present or future. If it’s the past, could Grandfather have been a precursor to the GI? If it’s the future, could Grandfather have been a future form of the GI? Either way, could the multiple CLaras then be an effect of the “infinite possibilities” that she communicated via leaf to Grandfather?
That’s an interesting call. Or a previous form (before it goes off to Earth)? Hmm, have to think about that. (title- Rings of… a ref to Clara’s rings (her mother’s presumably, and memory potent), or rings as in the ripples when you drop a stone in the water)
And yes @wolfweed @dislikesswimmingalone Great Miro ref <brain explodes with all the literary, arty refs, meta-refs, memes, themes and theories in NuWho!>
4 May 2013 at 21:56 #7796@badwulf – 3 Claras – need 3 Claras or we run out after 2 deaths! (If this version is supposed to turn into the dalekised one, through her travels with the Dr – then why doesn’t she remember the Dr when she’s a dalek?)
4 May 2013 at 21:51 #7794@bluesqueakpip – Re Arthur and Angela – maybe I should only have looked as far as my own avatar for sinister “angel” connections!
4 May 2013 at 21:49 #7792@craig (also @phaseshift,, @jimthefish)
just a quick break for (over)speculating 🙂
And apologies for hassling Craig when you’ve just returned from such a hard week’s networking, LOL
It was mentioned last week that it might be a good idea to add an FAQ to the home page of the site. re basic instructions how to ref people, reply, embed images etc But also specifically re where to post re spoilers and a big appeal to everyone not to post spoilery or spoiler-fuelled speculation on the main threads. This last bit strikes me as esp important since we are picking up lots of new people now (and kudos to Dan for the link in the blog 🙂 ) and spoilering on the main threads is so easy to do.
4 May 2013 at 21:41 #7789@badwulf (love the moniker) Welcome. (I believe there might still be some jammy dodgers left on the sofa. (Next to the very large bath full of speculating fish)
Re consensus – very little on here, mate! But LOTS of theories haha. Fall could be anything from fall (as in failure or defeat), death, autumn, a wee trip over a step, a long jump downwards (as in rabbit hole)… “Silence will fall” is also associated with Trenzalore
4 May 2013 at 21:35 #7787Angie and Artie
After some thought: any bets on NG – News Group and RT – retweet?
Love that.
There’s also the Arthurian ref for Artie (Caliburn House); Working on Angela 😉 Re Hide – was that in 1973? Crimson H is 1893 (again), and CW was 1983. Just a meta-ref to decade jumps from 1963, or…? And we are currently watching in 2013… (I think 😉 )
4 May 2013 at 20:06 #7768@bobbyfat Not to mention Strax going off to play with his grenades, Hehe. (Ho hum there’s always someone lowers the tone 😉 )
4 May 2013 at 20:04 #7767Re -isation of the Dr – this episode demonstrated he’s vulnerable, if you just get the right potion/process
4 May 2013 at 20:03 #7766The Doctor is the ur-Monster of the universe because he forces the others to their extremes.
oooh that’s sneaky!
4 May 2013 at 20:01 #7765@Juniperifsh
Any signs of dalekisation this week folks – eye-stalk-like objects, one eyed visions? I need a re-watch!
Not so much dalekisation but lots of photos being taken by unknown person/thing cf looking at things thro monitor/screens etc (add to list above). (Stalker – eyestalk – best I can manage!)
Clara “either the puppet or the key” – I like that
It feels like the Who team has really hit its stride in 7.2. Love all the little callouts to past Doctors, (though no doubt there will be people complaining about lazy sloppy writing and how it’s the worst thing ever on TV)
Just wondering – as 7.2 has been approx taking a different Dr per week, in style – we’re left with C Baker and McCoy erasfor the last 2 – both of whom were particularly dark – could be in for particularly scary next 2 weeks.
AAAgh nooooooooo – only 2 weeks left then it’s a wait till November. NOVEMBER!!!!!!!!
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