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Just a thought re length of episodes – I’ve thought the pacing has generally been better in 7.2, but a little more time for could make a huge difference, and it’s nice when there’s a mix during the run, with some 2-parters.  Interestingly the episode which most people seem to rate highest this series was Asylum – and that clocked in at 50 mins, so it doen’t need a lot of extra time. (Wouldn’t an hour each be just delicious?!) The classic series was sometimes a scant 20 minutes, which is something to remember when talking about how it used to run (often with a dip in pace in the 3rd episode as it was setting up for for finale).

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@phaseshift – thanks for the clip, it’s great. They’ve even put Brian in an anorak!! 😆 (good job most of us Who enthusiasts have a thick skin – even the show has a go at us!!)

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<does deep bow of unbridled admiration @bluesqueakpip>

Even if they don’t follow through on that, I’m still mighty impressed.

So – was that the takeover by alien forces that we’ve just seen? So if this theory is correct the finale should see him in a coma then (not technically dead yet – kept alive by the fans/Clara’s belief?).

Multiple possible realities playing out (my theory re the GI) with the Dr having to work out which is real – reflecting the uncertainties of the Time War? <desperately tries to shoehorn own theory in to Bluesqueakpip’s work of genius, LOL>

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@craig Wow, that’s impressive. Will be interesting to see how it goes from there – ie I’d expect Sundays to be quite busy. Ha! And there I was thinking we were nested into a big private sofa – and we’re actually in a goldfish bowl 😉

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@phaseshift – good point. I’ve had a bit of a regeneration since the last finale, so will need to have a think. A wee polish of the chains at least. (Anyone wanting to nip back in time to check out previous episodes, just let me know. Shame I can’t send anyone forwards tho!)

Just occurred to me that there’s been very little talk of River (in story) this season… Hmmm. If there’s timey wimey stuff going on she’s going to be part of it I would hope!

Re the map of Hedgewick’s park – there are some interesting rides mentioned, including Eyeball Terror which seems to feature giant eyeballs.  There’s a Boating lake (with a piratey looking ship), Sky Ridge, which may or may not include a rocket), Fireball,  a Port, the Garden, a Hotel…  Combined with the various artefacts from previous episodes in the museum inside it did make me wonder, but I can’t match it to every story just a few tenuous links eg Fireball (Rings of A?).

 

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Further to Clara being a Tardis construct – she’s created Clara as the perfect companion for the Doctor – cos he kept breaking or losing all his previous companions!

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@phaseshift – now ths is brilliant –

So with all this talk of “mirroring” perhaps the ultimate meta reference is mirroring the Doctor paranoid obsession onto us? We, as the audience after the events of S5 and S6, are really having difficulty believing she’s normal as well?

That also ties in with Clara is the programme (as in @bluesqueakpip‘s amazingly detailed meta-ref theory) – agh! I just had a flashback to @blenkinsopthebrave (or was it @bobbingbird )’s old 4th wall Tinkerbell theory, LOL. Let’s not go there!!

(and spot on with the Brian ref – I remember we all had a chuckle at that!)

Incidentally, the cubes in PoT – were examined in great detail and pronounced “safe”, so readings (inc the sonic) can be wrong/fooled

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I’ve not minded the stand alones, there’s been enough linking to keep me happy. As I posted above, for me it increases Clara’s vulnerability -it’s unlikely, but she could die again or be cyberised.  Although I do agree that she does seem to be a bit of a blank slate, compared to when we saw her in AotD and Snowmen, which I also agree makes it hard to sympathise with her except in general terms. I don’t have that problem with Matt’s Dr – for all he’s enigmatic and several puzzles within whatevers, his performance does it for me. Although there might be another timestream Dr interfering/sorting, the one we’re following at the moment is experiencing things as we see them, I think.

@phaseshift – I like and agree re the long arc being about the Dr

@bluesqueakpip – am longstanding proponent of the memories upload theory as you know; I’m still hankering after Clara is  a construct of the Tardis (the gadget that could make “everything”). The Tardis had massive guilt attack over letting Clara be incinerated in JttCotT and recreates a duplicate!

But – I also love the theory that we’re in an alt Tardis which is going to become Hartnell’s.  I like this version of the Tardis, but then I first met it in 60s and it always had a much more “hi tech” look back then. (It also had a hum, and thick doors, but you can’t have everything back I suppose! 🙂 )

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Sorry so many people were undewhelmed by NiS. Have watched it again and still confirming my first reaction – I really loved it, not just looking for clues, but got carried away with the story. Some minor quibbles, eg agree they didn’t really need 3 m cybermen and recreation of the end of  Zulu, since a dozen or so would have been enough to terrify… though not enough to go and repopulate the universe. Presumably they wanted the Tomb of the Cybermen moment tho. By doing the army they had to revert to clumpy – 3m zooming about on superspeed setting would probably be messy. But an explanation would have been nice!

Couple of things I picked up on second time thro – when the cyberplanner first moves into the Dr’s mind he says “not a human brain, not even slightly human”

So we now have the Dr verified as defnitely not human, as Clara has been verified human

It’s very fast – but just after Angie has been given the coin and they have the chat next to the emperor’s waxwork, you see Angie look at the coin, look at the waxwork, turn round to where Porridge had been, look thoughtful.

I got sidetracked earlier – what was the Lampwick poster about @wolfweed ? I thought that came from the episode and had a whole Pinochio theory worked out with Clara as construct but becoming a real girl next week.  DOH!

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@craig

I will try to be your guardian (with a small g) … I think one of the burdens of running a forum is that you WILL see spoilers, but if you can keep them from others you’re doing your job.

Aw, Craig! That’s why we love you! (and @phaseshift and @jimthefish )

I agree, I think we’d be low target compared with press blogs (you mods will have a better idea of that), but I think @pedant‘s suggestion is a good one, just till the broadcast.  Other caution for those of us still dipping in here is probably not to check the activity feeds, but rely on the recent posts (which don’t give previews) and people we know unless we see 1 or more of our mighty mods is around. (Craig – maybe you could add a wee note to the welcome page just to apologise but say that we’re not taking any new registrations till after Sat, but open for business again then)

@chickenelly Of course, plenty of room behind the sofa – and in the fish tank (aka @whohar‘s luxury bath)

@Shazzbot, @blenkinsopthebrave (peace people, it’s been a stressful day!) and @jimthefish I haven’t seen Broadchurch yet either – couldn’t access 1st episodes for ages but was plannng to download the whole series once 7.2 is finished. So as a general rule don’t post about endings of books, films, TV etc unless it’s in a discussion specifically about the ends. If I’m recommending something I would expect that not everyone who reads my post would have read or watched, but might want to in the future.

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And not to mention the hit to the show’s potential ratings next week.

Grrrr!

<resigns herself to limited speculation this week; wonders why she was so worried about prequels LOL>

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PS Er… how do we get a copy?!!

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@Shazzbot While that’s an interesting idea, it’d piss off all the people who legitimately bought a DVD. It’s not their fault if it’s in their hands early. And then would they be supplied with a copy with the TV ending? DVD supply will be completely separate from the production team, but there will be clauses in the contracts about ensuring no copies fall into ANY hands before transmission.  Given how skillfully and carefully Moff & co work the marketing esp on the internet (although interesting current debate about the trailers) I really wouldn’t like to imagine how frustrated/angry they must be feeling. There’s absolutely nothing they can do to prevent or contain internet spread. Or how bad the person who pushed the “supply now” button must be feeling (to the point of wondering if they’ll have a job on Monday)

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@juniperfish Me too, but I plan to use it a lot more after 7.2 is finished. I look forward to exchanging songs with you

<waves @trudawg > As with the rest of this site it’s a constantly evolving entity, so yes, please do jump in

<…upgrade uploaded…>

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@jimthefish – are you sure they only finished filming the finale that recently, was it not the 50th? And yes, thanks @ardaraith for the prompt warning

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That’s a massive f*ck up on the part of the DVD suppliers.  There’s no excuse for that.  Daleks in the storeroom? Timey wimey mix-up between concept of supply and demand? Heads may roll (and not just cyber ones!) Moff will be incandescant I should think, and rightly so.  If it starts leaking badly the journalists he has carfully nurtured, and who have signed confidentiality clauses are going to be the only ones who can’t comment on it.

Think I will be limiting my interwebbing severely next week, and working with selective blinkers on (automatically go dark whenever they detect a Who ref, LOL)

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And this gives me chills. Recorded in the year of classic Who’s cancellation. Ladies and Gents, I give you Mystery Girl 🙂

 

 

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@whisht and @phaseshift – thanks for the links, thoroughly enjoying being in here and finding great tunes with (amusingly) tenuous links to DW.  Here’s another one (no apologies for yet another fabulous female voice, but I promise I do listen to a lot of other stuff as well haha).

This one’s for Clara – Who’s That Girl (featuring lots of diguise, violent use of a chair and a stalker photographer)

 

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@craig Great clip, made me laugh, thanks. (It ain’t perfect but  like Who it’s a target for the irrational haters) PS hope your head’s better 🙂

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@ardaraith I agree with you re 13/14 year old girls. I thought the script nailed it! Kids themselves were a bit stage-school but OK, especially as they were lobotomised for most of it 😉 Oh for a real life “teenager on stand-by” button 😀

(And glad you’re having fun on here; it’s great to have a fresh perspective on the show from you and some of the other new members)

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And what is Porridge emperor of? That is a VERY high tech empire – they can blow up whole galaxies, his ship can find and transport him in about a minute, even when he’s supposedly in hiding. Liked the difference between his public image and what he really is (and that other than that nothing is made of his stature). Mirroring the Dr again? And his sympathy for “the poor guy who had to press the button” suggesting that it wasn’t a morally wrong choice, it had to be done – setting up forgiveness for the Dr? As Porridge it seems unlikely that if he was the guy who had to press the button that he would be the one to make the decision. But as the emperor, it’s a different thing. (And mirror of someone hiding from his world, suffering remorse at having had to take a morally tough but ultimately inevitable decision. The emperor comes back to his world at the end).

The marrriage proposal at the end – a bit out of the blue, though in context with fairy stories, with Porridge being the opposite of the conventional handsome prince). Interesting Clara rejects the obvious power option (Queen of 1000 galaxies) – in favour of the power of time travelling the whole universe with the Dr? The Dr is interestingly placed in a vey tight 3-shot, given that he said he wasn’t going to influence her at all.

I know some people have said they are frustrated that Clara’s “impossible girl” status is still going on, but because of that we have the real danger that this Clara might die or be cyberised (or go and have adventures as the Queen of 1000 galaxies!). We don’t know for sure that this is the version who becomes a companion – assuming a Clara does eventually. (governess to general – not such a big leap really!)

Predictions – Next week – The GI is creating a series of alternative realities which the Dr has to choose between. The reveal of who Clara comes fairly late in the episode. Her voice saying the Dr’s name (“Doctor”) is the key/password to the final game-changing reveal of the events which have been going on just out of our range of vision (while we’re distracted by the smoke and mirrors in front of us) that everything the Dr (and we) thinks he has been experiencing for the last 50 years is his memories uploading and he’s actually in a hospital – maybe to cure any residual GI, cybery or daleky traces. I suspect we might even get a happy ending 🙂 The Dr wakes up with upload complete, ready to head off in search of new adventures but the starting point can be anywhere they want to make it.

It’s not a dream, it doesn’t negate any of the last 50 years adventures as they are memories, but canon inconsistencies can be explained by the odd bit of “reality” or nightmare seeping in. It’s still the same Dr, not recreated or ganger, or…

Or if you want it darker he could be a human (eg John Smith) waking up in an asylum or a prison, in a straightjacket, from a dream of being a Timelord…

Or the episode ends with a regeneration…

Clara’s a “plant” by the Dr or has post hypnotic suggestion etc to save him – she may not be too pleased about that!

Or (more likely), none of the above

:green:

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So is Mr Webley this week’s Chekhov’s gun??!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webley_Revolver

Incidentally it was the gun of choice for the British Empire, and according to the wikipedia was in service from 1887-1963.

 

 

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The Doctor’s comment about Clara’s too tight… skirt

First of all, as mentioned before, it’s definitely out of character and meant to suggest a little bit of residual cyber-thinking. The fact that he overcomes it could be meant to reassure us that the Dr is back in control, or set up the doubt that he may still be vulnerable to it.

Second – Clara’s skirt wasn’t particularly tight; her jacket was, but not her skirt. Costume dept fail, or over-reading on my part?

@craig – great idea re Daleks and Cybermen fight a psychic battle for control of the Doctor’s mind LOL – Matt in triple-role..?!

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@wolfweed – re debate – what conclusion did they come to?

General refs/riffs –

Good call on the John Landis/2001 connection – I missed that completely.  So, combination of “about to be whisked off to the next stage of his evolution in company of mad computer” and the concept of a weekly “date” – going to see fictitious films.

As I mentioned on the G-blog (OK I succumbed, but I’m still shocked at the vitriol on it; took advantage of the nesting to get a positive comment on the first page) – if last week riffed on Frankenstein, this week was Dracula (resurrection, infection etc). Eeeeeek.

The callout to the world of Pinochio (Again. (was it Clara who commented on the Doctor’s(?) nose growing in BoSJ?)) – which is about a construct who wants to be a real boy but has to learn what it is that makes you human. The poster for Lampwick’s (P’s friend who encourages him to go to Pleasure Island where all the boys get turned into donkeys/slaves)

Love all the chess refs. It’s a game with a surprisingly long history (apparently even longer now, LOL). @bluesqueakpip‘s sacrificial queens, queens protecting the king, pawns which can be upgraded to queens… plus of course Fenric (also vampire) and Seventh Seal. So is the GI playing a really long tactical game of chess with the Doctor?

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@phaseshift re spoilers

OK, I maybe got hypersensitive to spoilers yesterday.  In context that I’m glad I avoided the 2 doctors pic till after NiS, would you still say it’s OK to watch?

I’d be cool with it being posted in News or a trailers/prequels thread

But I’m also cool with relocating to the music thread with @whisht for the next week if the majority want to discuss including the trailers.  (Or a spoiler free zone for the truly paranoid, LOL

@juniperfish @craig

 

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LOL @lula <waves at other awake person>

…You know you could be reconstructed by the hole you’ve left behind,’ very intriguing.  Reconstructed by Clara?  Of course.

Hmmm, intriguing. Or what about… Clara IS the attempt to reconstruct the Dr from the hole…?! But it went a bit skweewiff cos they missed out the dark bits  OK, maybe not!

I’m really having trouble with this series – can’t work out my favourite! Personally I think Moff and Smith, in particular, are on fire and have really raised the bar on what Who can be. I love the stories they’re weaving.

Happy Mothers Day to all the USA moms

 

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@bluesqueakpip @whisht @craig and everyone

Personally, after seeing the various reactions to the various trailers I’m going to play safe and avoid till after next week. I managed to avoid the 2 Doctors pic (I presume that’s the one that was on the radio times site) till after the show, and with hindsight I preferred it that way.

Like @whisht I’m happy to go with the majority view on this – I realise I may be a bit extreme but experience from earlier today reminds me how easy it is to get spoilered (and that was very minor, and presumably not intentional).  I would say that for the next week anything which isn’t in the actual episode I would consider a potential spoiler/too much information. Unless there’s a little space that could be made in eg the library which we could guarantee was spoiler free…?  It would be great if we could work something out that doesn’t leave some of us off the sofa for the week 🙂  <thinks: I have NO chance of getting to November without finding out who John Hurt’s playing, have I?!!>

And I think I’ll give the Graun blog a miss given the reports coming in! It’s usually reasonably positive till late Sunday/Mon. How can they complain about that?! I mean seriously? Tho I suppose Gaiman has his own haters as well as the usual Who ones. I loved the reinvention – very Moonbase (thanks @htpbdet) – which really scared me first time around – no silver piper this time tho 🙂  Really glad they didn’t all move as fast as that first one (Did I miss something about why that was the case?). The threat of just a few cybermen for ages, which was scary enough, then the end scenes of Zulu! (via the tribute to Tomb).  Interesting, perhaps significantly, although the long term danger was to the earth, other planets etc the story was again “small”, base under siege with a small no of characters. Cyberisation growing on and in you like a virus is soooo much more insidiously scary than being carved up.

And yes, the block in the Dr’s mind – is it something he could do himself or was it put there? As a protection or a an attack…?

Ooooh! Lots to think about. But remind me never to engage the Dr as a babysitter. Great games, very sympathetic… but absolutely no concept of risk assessment, LOL. And how anyone thought it was a good idea to leave them alone in a dark creepy room, with possible cybermen (who are now so scary you have to blow up entire planets if you so much as find a smidgeon of one) on the loose, I don’t know. But full of lots of interesting little knick knacks.

Children’s brains “on standby”… well yes I know they often seem to be in RL ( 🙂 ), but…

Rewatch, rewatch.  Maybe not tonight tho! Lots to think about first.

And remember – don’t feed the trolls!  Brave hearts 😉

😛

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Some random thoughts –

@juniperfish – Lampwick was Pinnochio’s friend who persuades him to skive off and go to Pleasure Island – where the boys all get turned into donkeys

The Dr threatens to regenerate if he has to, to get rid of the cyber”infection”. Just a thought – he was bluffing (apparently) when he said the tardis had self destruct setting, so…?

What did people make of the screen-POV we got several times – first in the main hall, apparently with a viewpoint near  the statue of the emperor, but also in the “castle”, on Clara… will need to check again for exactly where. If that was the emperor’s ship monitoring (wild 4am guess), what does that say about the emperor. What’s he emperor of? And why (as someone else pointed out) is his ship shaped like a pyramid.

And who took all the photos last week?

Someone mentioned that in numbering all the previous incarnations, there is a pause before eleven. New(ish) bonkers theory… Clara isn’t no 12 – she’s 11 (but chameleon arched or disguised in some way by herself to be in the right place to save Smith (at Trenzalore). Who’s no 12.

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Oh Wow!

Got home late; thought.. it’s late, I should leave it till the morning… yeah, right!! And now I CAN’T sleep 😯

Exciting and very very scary. <Hi fives @Juniperfishfor  Dark Doctor theory> And I’m not convinced the Doctor is completely uncyberised – or there’s something else still working him. Someone mentioned upstream about smoke and mirrors and that maybe the main story is happening just out of our attention span, on the edge of our peripheral vision – Dr held captive somewhere?  And that little cybermite flashing its way across the universe at the end, with a lot more information about the Dr and Time Lords than they had before.  Will it grow slowly in his brain or can he keep it under control. Maybe just a fraction of the Dr’s knowledge but…  (Loved the “upgrade in progress” – very Borg-like, but very very scary. Did it manage to upgrade to resist gold btw? (so the golden ticket would stop working)).  It may not be something that pays off immediately, but be one of Moff’s dangling ends for picking up as and when required.

@bluesqueakpip – re sleazy Dr, I don’t think there’s anything about Eleven in that sequence – it’s all about the cybercontrol wanting to manipulate Clara – he’s picked up the Dr’s fascination with her and twists it – he unsettles her, catches her offguard – she’s already stupidly told him exactly what weapons they’ve got and where the bomb remote is. He needs to bring her close enough so he can grab and destroy the remote.

@wolfweed – great pics, as ever

@StevetheWhistle – yay! long time no see – Escher pic sums up the cybermites really well – small, creepy, relentless and everywhere!

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Thanks @craig

<glares @Fulcanelli from safety of being behind Craig, and rattles chains! That comment was def a spoiler (you know which one!). Just don’t even blink 😈 >

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@craig @phaseshift @jimthefish

Can you please delete posts #8504 and #8506 (fulcanelli’s and my reply, which quotes part of it) on grounds of being spoilers? Ta much

<def gone this time!>

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Also forgot –

Clara is –  CAL

A scriptwriter (cf land of Fiction)

@whisht – Clara is Love! (btw Nightmare in Silver thread is OK for now)

We’ve had a fair old week for theorising (from the completely bonkers to the merely bobbins), reminiscing and expounding (from 17th century Damien Hursts to religion/morality to dark slithery recesses of the mind of the trollfan). Thanks everyone, and enjoy tonight’s story – may it fulfil all our expectations (or at least not be meh!!!)

See you after the show (when it’s safer). Timeshifting tonight so will be in later <waves @all>

PS @thommck Your Dr/River timeline made me laugh. Well done. Though you may have made River’s slightly too linear

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@bluesqueakpip – At least they gave them one each 🙂

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@bluesqueakpip

Absolutely right <kicks self for forgetting The Key (was always doing that when I only had a yale lock 🙂 ) >

And I missed the theory about being Doctor’s other half (so long as it doesn’t make him human 🙂 ) (“The Doctor” was meant to include a future/past/alt 11 Doctor

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@htpbdet Thanks, and thanks for your original post of musings on early Doctors which kick-started a lot of my thoughts.

You said – “JNT was behind the anti-Hurndall protest”

Really??

I didn’t know that – that’s despicable.

The problem with the internet (and I love lots of the aspects of it that democratise information, facilitate communication etc) is that it also gives a platform and a megaphone to people whose opinions would otherwise stay hidden under rocks at the bottom of deep, dark and dank well (where they live with their computers). They are not so many, but they are LOUD 🙁

 

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@janetteb – yeah, I did the same double take with that, but I’m sure it’s not costume, just to stop the actors turning blue between takes (it was April – still mid-winter here LOL)

@bluesqueakpip Agreed, very funny. Wish I had a ticket now 😉 I remember the 2 daleks BBC HQ used to have at their front door – very impressive, always made me jump a little, and they didn’t move. You can bet I kept a close eye on them!

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Re Clara, I forgot –

The Dr’s nanny

A fake or a forgery

Thanks @janetteb

And I also forgot (specifically, tho she’s covered as TL or companion) – Romana

A ghost

(Actually it should be easy from here, check the list, see what we’ve missed – and that’ll be it!)

@thommck LOTS of smoke and mirrors, esp in JttCotT 😉  Btw, meant to say ages ago, love the new headgear

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@Fulcanelli  If you so much as breathe a hint of the suggestion of a spoiler in my direction I will send you so far back in time it will take you the next 50 years to catch up again – assuming you do have a tardis! 😈

@bluesqueakpip

You may remember I was originally sceptical re JLC’s ability to be the Doctor, and you reminded me (correctly) that I was confusing the character with the actor).  It would be quite something if they pulled that one off (or any surprise regen for that matter – I would be beyond impressed. Not that I am in any hurry to see Smithy to go, I think he’s great).  I think you’re right, she could be great, BUT she’d need to be armour plated on a personal level.   Can anyone check if they’ve reinforced the production bunkers recently? 🙂

So, summary of current theories

Clara could be (in no particular order) –

Normal human who has meta-crisis/time fracture either by accident or as choice to save the Doctor

The Doctor

The Doctor’s daughter (Susan or Jenny), or granddaughter

The Doctor’s mum, sister or any other female relative

The Rani

Omega

A Time Lord, inc the Corsair (love that one)

A reincarnation of any previous companion (anyone but Mel!!!!)

River

The (or a) Tardis

Isis

The Master

A trap

A solution

A D*M

A computer programme

A computer virus

A computer upload

Dr Who the programme/all the Doctor’s memories

A Zygon

None of the above

Prediction – the mystery of Clara will be revealed in TNotD. That will be/will precipitate a gamechanging reveal that sets up the 50th (with the challenge there to sort out which of the 2 (or more) Doctors/universes is the real one (clashing time streams or virtual Doctors))

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@bluesqueakpip

People who see the world in black and white will tend to find simple, straightforward answers in the most complex of texts

The opposite of Who enthusiasts then 😆

@fulcanelli   For a show that’s been to the beginning and the end of  the universe, was created in the 60s and has had a multitude of writers, directors producers, DW has been refreshingly free of speculating on God (as opposed to gods). A few higher powers than the TLs are hinted at or occasionally met eg the Shakri, but none proposed as an omni-creator as  far as I can recall.  I don’t think you can divorce religion from morality though, as they all have very clear views on how to behave and rules to follow (correct me if I’m wrong BluesqueakpipakaMaster)

 

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@bluesqueakpip Can’t imagine the BBC licensed that

They missed a trick though – why didn’t they paint them blue (with little flashing lights on the top, for when they’re occupied  LOL).  Poorly thought out – deserves to get busted! 😈

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@bluesqueakpip – if you see I’ve posted somewhere, it’s likely to be safe! (I’ve even avoided the official trailers and the Radio Times so far).  People are even rating any links that are posted for levels of spoilering.

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@satsumajoe I take it you’re new to Who fandom then??

😆

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@phaseshift – your analogy with Batman fans and change happening in the 90s got me thinking.  Also @Shazzbot ‘s comment about the internet starting early 90s. One of the things that changed was to increase direct access to the old issues (comics/episodes (old TV series)). Fans would scan them and them and upload so the later generation could see what all the fuss was about – or scratch their heads in disbelief at the low quality of the medium (crappy newsprint, limited colour repro, b/w (TV), if not the artwork/scripts, stories that reflected the preoccupations of their times.

The new generation of fans isn’t getting the quite the same experience as the one who watched/read it at the time; they can’t, this is 2013 not 1963. I don’t think that’s bad, it’s just different, and inevitable.  Although both TV shows and comics now have an unexpectedly long lifespan they were both originally created for what was (and in many ways still is) a very transient medium. Some new fans will love the retro look and feel of the “originals” but others just won’t get it, especially if they’ve been used to only superslick colour graphics and glossy paper/high production values.  So the old fans who uploaded the scans of their beloved stories are left feeling defensive, and unless they can get a bit of perspective, they turn nasty.

Alt theory –  as Batman has been going since the 1940s, maybe all the old curmudgeons all started dying out in the 90s and stopped commenting 😉

@bluesqueakpip – Haha. Am going to be VERY disappointed if this doesn’t happen! Although I tend to think they’d road-test it first, maybe as Phaseshift suggests, to see how deep they need to  build the production bunkers

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Of course, if Moffat reveals the Doctor’s any part human, I’m outta here and will never watch again! (We all have our limits)

😯

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@Shazzbot And of course the analogy to music also holds up in the group of fans who insist that their fave cult musicians have sold out since they got a big recording deal and are not nearly as good since they started recording with a budget and should probably break up/jump out the nearest window now before they taint their legacy any more. (Ref “Judas” calls to Dylan when he change from folkie to rocker).

People claim ownership over people and things they have no right to, just because for a while it coincides with their world view. Then it feels like a personal betrayal when they move in a different direction, if the fan isn’t ready to move on too.

@bluesqueakpip – and thanks for  pointing out about “room to fail” – I forgot to mention that.

Fans are WEIRD

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Dead Silence is an interesting thought. If they don’t just dissolve or turn to dust, there could be a lot of invisible bodies lying about. That’s a big H&S concern surely – I think we should be told!! The Doctor should have thought that through properly! And if you still don’t remember them when they’re dead that suggests it’s an actual physical attribute rather than a mental one.

Thanks to everyone who’s previewing the potenital spoilers – very much appreciated

@stiner282 As @Shazzbot says, anything dealing with a story or series before the current episode is  not a spoiler

@craignixon Re the master’s regenerations – he chose not to use them at the end of End of Time and is drawn into the timelock with the rest of the Timelords

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@Shazzbot

All of the commenters here who have been with the show since or near its inception are the lucky ones, because you can provide the kind of meta-analysis that us post-2005 viewers simply can’t have.

But you have the joy of coming to it fresh without all the baggage of its extremely convoluted history. (Just remember that most of his back-story wasn’t preplanned. As @phaseshift says, each creative team is free to put their own take on it, within a few parameters*.  As the current viewing audience, so are you.

*i love the thought of what the current “Info for writers” list looks like these days – it must be pages long, especially if you include all the references, clues and red herrings etc – mirrors, bow ties, flashing lights etc etc – and that’s before you add all the numbers (random no – 27, date – various lists of Who anniversaries, significant birthdays etc)>

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It’s interesting that the people who moan the most about Moffat era seem to be the ones lacking a sense of humour. The biggest moan is about it not taking itself seriously enough – cue extreme comments about sloppy, lazy, cheap, too many D*Ms ( 🙂 ),  cancel the whole thing etc.  Presumably they prefer their scifi totally “straight”, with a serious point, and no fun (except possibly a coda at the end, or between particularly hi-stress scenes). They have a different way of suspending their disbelief. But it’s not like there isn’t a choice nowadays – there’s a huge amont of scifi on TV to suit a variety of tastes.

Personally I loved old Who (as you’ll probably have gathered!), it was a part of my childhood and growing up. But I love the sheer verve of NuWho, and that it tackles new questions and angles about the Doctor’s life.  I love the fact that the budgets have caught up with the writers’ imaginations and that it can attract and inspire the best creative talent around just now.

It’s not the same as it was in the 60s/70s/80s. And if it was it wouldn’t have lasted beyond series 1 because it wouldn’t be doing the thing DW is best at – relating to the era it is being created in, and pushing the creative boundaries of its time.  The new series stands up to multiple viewings in a particular way, it’s designed with the internet in mind. Cos the internet exists, it’s how a lot of people, especially the youngsters, access information and TV!

One of the really sad consequences of the trolls is that Moffat felt he had to come off twitter, and withdraw from social networking. I’m sure he’d have loved it in here – probably would laugh his head off at how wrong we can be sometimes hehe.  I really hope none of the writer, actors etc dip into the blogs – the personal comments make me cringe for them sometimes – I want to jump up and down and shout not to mind them, that we’re not all like that.

Whatever you think of the end result you have to be blind not to see the effort, attention to detail, and yes, budget, that goes into each story.  Yes, old Who often made a virtue of studio-bound no-budget production, but it didn’t always have a Camfield to direct.  I’m not saying I think NuWho is flawless or that there are never plot holes, or occasional episodes that are a bit “meh”, but I get a helluva lot of fun out of watching it, and as @htpbdet says – feeling like an excited 12 year old again is great.  And then coming on here and finding out what it was all about LOL (and sometimes extending my education at the same time!)

I keep going back to Troughton’s talk with Victoria about his family – “they sleep in my head; sometimes, when I want to I wake them up and  remember them again”  Old Doctors sleep in your head. If you’re a fan, they never go away. Don’t like the current incarnation of the series? Go and wake up your favourite one and remember their stories, or invent new ones for them.

<Takes bow! Thank you all for you indulgence. And thanks again to EVERYone on this site who is making it such fun to be part of; it’s an achievement we should all be proud of, especially when you compare it the green toxic slime elsewhere on the web>

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That’s a brilliant summing up @phaseshift. Between you and @htpbdet I think you’ve nailed the magic of the entire series!  You could also compare it to your favourite long term musicians – you may count yourself a fan, but you probably  won’t like every song/album eg Bob Dylan, Van Morrison, Elvis Costello, Tom Waits, the Stones (delete and substitute according to your own taste 🙂 ) they’ve ever done. You may even have seen them do a duff gig. But it doesn’t take away one little bit of what they have achieved when they hit the marks.

Or like your best friend of however many years. Sometimes your paths diverge but it doesn’t mean you won’t still meet up in the future and have great times together again. In the meantime you have lots of shared memories to keep the friendship warm.

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@Jimthe Fish @wolfweed

Big Finish – missed out on them. Good spots guys.

Cybermen in phone box – “How come Superman gets one to himself”

“Are you sure the cybercontroller said it’s the one that’s bigger on the outside?”

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