The Day of The Doctor – The 50th Anniversary Special
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Craig 10 years, 5 months ago.
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22 October 2013 at 12:34 #19038
@timeloop – or, on this forum:
what happens in Gallifrey stays behind the Time Lock.
22 October 2013 at 12:39 #1903922 October 2013 at 12:43 #1904022 October 2013 at 12:57 #19041As @bluesqueakpip so eloquently put it –
what happens in Gallifrey stays behind the Time Lock
Sorry Nick, even
“unless Steven Moffat thinks otherwise”
doesn’t count. It’s what us non-spoiler fans say! And that’s to please keep ALL spoiler (and pseudo-spoiler and maybe-spoiler) discussion on the spoilers thread, including the subject matter. and please don’t bring spoiler-informed discussion on to any of the main threads. If you KNOW something, please abstain from contributing about it on the other threads. Discuss on the spoiler thread till your heart’s (or hearts’) content, there are plenty of people on here who like to do that 🙂
@wolfweed may be overcautious sometimes, but that’s a good thing; his track record is 5* so far – if he thinks it should be in spoilers, it’s fine by me.
Thanks to everyone for respecting this. (This discussion comes up every so often, and it’s a good time to air it again now)
22 October 2013 at 13:21 #19042Anonymous @
Sorry I’m late but I was sleeping out and Mrs Fish caught me…. (old Eric Morecambe joke).
With regards to the trailer, I thought it was fab. Fabbitty fab fab, as Doc 10 might have said. Slightly bemused by was John Hurt the policeman chat as to me it clearly isn’t Hurt. I think generic policeman to call out to the opening of An Unearthly Child and no more significance than that. And like @thommck, I also doubt that there are that many clues to the 50th contained within it and that. I think it’s meant to be more a celebration of the last 50 years and all the little touches contained within meant to be as much a gift to the fans as much as a series of clues to be deciphered. (Won’t stop me trying though.) I don’t, for example, expect that we’ll hear much more about the Great Intelligence, for example.
It’s also, rather oddly, almost made me not that bothered about seeing a trailer for the anniversary episode now. I like that this showed everything and nothing and left the episode itself unspoilered. And at just over a month to go now, I’m hoping that I’d be able to hold out with this and the other shows that will be presumably coming our way soonish. Of course, that won’t stop me from massive squeeing when the trailer proper does land.
22 October 2013 at 14:10 #19045I have just visited my Uncle and he sends regards to all.
Uncle says that he is with @wolfweed, @bluesqueakpip and @nick and that he thinks the face of Hurt has been manipulated for the policeman. To appear younger.
He agrees with Miss Bluesqueakpip that the “policeman” exchange with Amy in Eleventh Hour may be a clue hidden in plain sight. If the Dr knows that the TARDIS exploding could be the moment when his former self in policeman mode seals his timeline, then he would be desperate to stop the TARDIS from exploding and, having done it, on edge at the thought of a policeman when re-encountering Amy.
He also agrees that the morphed Hurt face might well position him for Dr Zero. Hurt being Dr Zero also ties in the Doctor running away from something all his lives…himself.
Mr Wolfweed posted a breakdown of the trailer in sketchform in which there was no policeman. So Uncle thinks the policeman has been specifically added and perhaps is more than just a reference to Unearthly Child. Uncle says that across all incarnations, the Doctor has consistently not wanted to be thought of as any kind of policeman.
He thinks that it is possible that Silence has fallen on all of the Doctors and their mixed up time line. He thinks that this may tend to mean that the Hurt Doctor caused the TARDIS explosion across all time and space, that he was the unexplained voice.
He wonders if the policeman is representative of what the Hurt Dr is – Dr Zero, in traditional old Time Lord mode. Someone who policies time anomalies? He wonders if Dr Zero does something which breaks the First Rule of Time or enforces it but in a way which does not help someone –perhaps just sealing the future Drs in? – so, not in the name of the Doctor.
He also wonders if Moffat is misdirecting – there was a time when Sarah-Jane sort of looked into a crtsyal ball – in Pyramids of Mars when the Doctor showed her an alternative future. So the idea of the Daleks invading Gallifrey might just be an alternative future (and the likely cause of the mission in Genesis of the Daleks) which Hurt seeks to avoid by sealing his own future timeline (which he has to do post Smith as otherwise the escaped Daleks from the sealed Time War will not be contained).
Miss Bluesqueakpip also made him realise that the blue Junkyard doors could actually be the doors of a different TARDIS/SIDRAT enclosing the Doctor’s timeline – symbolic in many ways he thought. Hence the console outside the TARDIS in the yard. And that was why this Policeman was standing guard. Because it was a prison for his own future jumbled timeline.
A friend reminded him of this line from Day of the Daleks:You’re trapped in a temporal paradox. Styles didn’t start that explosion and start the war. You did it all yourselves.
Uncle wonders whether Hurt will say something like that:
You’re all trapped in a temporal paradox. The Daleks and the Timelords didn’t start the war. You did it all yourselves.
I hope I have got this all right for Uncle. Miss Shazzbot – if I made mistakes please correct them. Thank you.
Mini- HTPDBET(s)22 October 2013 at 15:02 #19047@htpbdet and mini-HTPBDET(s) – I’m so glad your Uncle is well enough to dictate such long posts for us to read here on the Forum (and to receive friends who can discuss particular dialogue lines with him! He must be improving). And I equally hope that you’ve been able to read out to him the many responses to your Uncle’s original post with his suspicions about the Hurt Doctor being Zero (and more).
Did I read here today that we were supposed to leave the Policeman theorising in the dust of yesterday?! I think @bluesqueakpip is indeed onto something with the whole ‘Are you a policeman?’ ‘Why, did you call a policeman?’ exchange in The Eleventh Hour. I’m wondering if my musings about the Doctor not leaving Gallifrey for entirely the reasons we’ve been led to believe, might hold water. Was he originally one of the Time Lords who championed (created?) the non-intervention, let’s-uphold-the-LAW kind of Gallifreyan society rules, only to have a change of heart? Did he indeed evolve from that point of view to one of active intervention, and helping, and that is why he scarpered with the type-40 Tardis?
Day of the Daleks isn’t available on the BBC Shop site, but I snagged a copy from ebay. Will have to watch it before commenting further on your Uncle’s theories.
Please tell your Uncle HTPBDET that everyone here is pulling for him to be well enough to walk your cousin down the aisle next month. That’s the most important thing right now.
22 October 2013 at 15:12 #19049HTPDET i like your idea of tardis blowing up , by the hurt doctor . It is even in a poster for the 50th behind .
When hurt blows the tardis up , then all kind of troubles start , alternative futures paradoxes who knows
22 October 2013 at 16:03 #19054@htpbdet – and mini-HTPBDETs – good to see you!
all incarnations, the Doctor has consistently not wanted to be thought of as any kind of policeman
Yes. Good point. He’s happy to impersonate a policeman; does it during both the Tennant and the Smith eras. But he doesn’t want to be thought of as a policeman. Indeed, there’s no finer way to insist very firmly that you are no longer a policeman than to nick a TARDIS and go careening around the universe. It’s kind of the Gallifreyan equivalent of nicking a police car and going blues and twos down the M1.
And it would just be like Moffat to have not only the Question in plain sight, but the Answer as well. Doctor Who? That’s the question on the credits. And there, in the AG credits, is the answer. Who travels inside a police box?
Good spot that the policeman isn’t on the original storyboard.
Now concentrate on getting well for your son’s wedding!
22 October 2013 at 17:09 #19059
Being a Policeman is the pits…22 October 2013 at 21:37 #19084@wolfweed – Surely you mean being Doc6 is the pits? 🙂
23 October 2013 at 00:00 #19087@wolfweed – 6 in the pit with the police helmet on – love it.
re Hurt and the policeman – maybe it’s an in-joke – they needed a face to morph in, let’s use John Hurt’s. Especially if he is Doctor Zero… I like the idea of going right back to the beginning.
The poster they put out a while back looks very much as if we’re heading to the Time War on Gallifrey, but I also wondered about the scene behind Matt at the end of the trailer – pointy rocks and orange skies of Gallifrey?
23 October 2013 at 00:10 #19089@scaryb – yes, I think Gallifrey. Like most planets in the Whoniverse, Gallifrey is very big on rocks. 🙂
The sky is orange, as well.
It could well be an in-joke; they want to have every Doctor in there, so they sneak in John Hurt’s face on the policeman and Peter Capaldi in the exploding star-scene at the end (about 0:55-57, left side from the audience perspective, same level as twitter hashtag). I’m not at all sure it is Peter Capaldi, btw, but the profile looks familiar.
@htpbdet‘s point is good, however. That policeman wasn’t on the original storyboard.
23 October 2013 at 00:42 #19092Wow! You’re good! (Just after the crack in time (in the clouds!)). I’m very wary of interpreting things as faces (as we humans do that incredibly well (remember the “face on Mars” from the 70s that disappeared once they had higher res kit?) but this thing’s just so jam packed with carefully placed goodies it wouldn’t surprise me. Unless it’s Delgado’s Master…? Nah, they wouldn’t finish with that 😉
There’s lots of boring reasons why the policeman might not have been in the storyboard but added after. eg someone rechecked the opening of An Unearthly Child and thought it would be a good idea. But the HurtDr as The Policeman (as opposite of what The Doctor stands for in many ways) – could certainly explain why Eleven is so disgusted with him, and maybe why Hartnell went running off (I have a theory brewing but it’s all tied up in timey wimey knots at the moment 🙁 ). (Maybe that’s why #6 was so snarky – he regenerated with more of the The Policeman/Dr Zero’s gene arrangement than the Doctor usually does).
But I love @htpbdet‘s thought that the Policeman in the trailer is much more of a guard than the one in the original story, esp if he represents Dr Zero and our way into the story. And the TARDIS blue junkyard doors (as spotted by BSP) representing the actual TARDIS – although they’re only in b/w in the trailer. (Which would loop nicely back to your comment about the whole trailer scenario (frozen explosion) ref’ing back to JttCotT)
And yes, lots of old consoles about, can hardly move for them! 😀
23 October 2013 at 00:45 #19093Re your comment about the current trailer being better than the actual episode trailer – I wholeheartedly agree (I like watching the trailers after I’ve seen the episodes). Would love to see it in a cinema – but that might be quite embarrassing if it came on unexpectedly, LOL
23 October 2013 at 02:00 #19095Greetings all.
I missed a couple days discussion and now find myself terribly behind. I had originally intended to comment on some River discussion that is now a few pages back. Lots of intervening speculation on other topics!
Love the theorizing on Hurt doctor. If he is ‘Doctor zero’, and thus all others’ numbers are shifted by one, this would then make ‘the fall of the eleventh’ refer to Tennant. Or have we heard it wrong and it is really the ‘fall of the eleven’ (all eleven doctors)?
As long as I’m here, my comment on River and whether she is really dead:
In Forest of the Dead, after River sacrifices herself and during the voice-over ‘everyone knows everybody dies’ the camera briefly pans over the chair she had been sitting in when she died, and it’s empty.As though she had regenerated.
I find it interesting because it suggests that Moffat planned her to be a time lord from the beginning. Surely the name can’t have been an accident, so there must have been some consideration of how she would get that name.
Of course the empty chair may just have been a sort of get out of jail free card, to be left for possible, but not definite use later. Sort of like Jenny regenerating in The Doctor’s Daughter. But here’s hoping we see River again!
23 October 2013 at 06:38 #19097@enlighteneddespot I dont think she could have regenerated, it took only a few seconds and the Doctor was not unconcious. Plus River was really just a copy in TNOTD. She couldn’t fake that. If she had been a ganger there would have been some sort of slime/ milky substance as well.
23 October 2013 at 07:03 #19099I agree with @timeloop I think R.S. is certainly dead. The entire character arc is working back from her death so if she wasn’t it would not make as much sense or be nearly so poignant. However as we found out in TNoTD being dead won’t necessarily slow her down. I expect we will see more of R.S. though in incorporeal form. (um deja vu or have I said that before?)
I like the suggestion that the face at the end is Capaldi. It looks more like Hartnell though.
As @htpbdet has pointed out the policeman in the opening appears to be guarding the yard. In the original he is simply passing by on his rounds.
@jimthefish, That may be true but far too “blue boringers” for now. I agree though with you re’ the trailer. I am quite content with this trailer and don’t really want one that is packed with spoilers. (Though not normally adverse to spoilers I am enjoying the mad bonkers theorising here so much I wouldn’t want to to be limted by too much actual information.)
Cheers
Janette
23 October 2013 at 10:17 #19112Bit late to the party on this, but thought the trailer was superb – and others have said upstream, has sated the desire for a content trailer because this is so much more satisfying. Very lovingly made, clearly with the intention of packing easter eggs for both BG and AG fans, my first instinct was that this was just a treat for fans, rather than clues to the anniversary special.
On reflection though, we’ve become accustomed to the idea that Moffat likes to tease so it would be foolish to assume there isn’t something hidden in there. The policeman and D1’s faces struck me as odd – as someone else has mentioned, I initially assumed a clip from the Mark Gatiss docu-drama, but I think it is a case of remastering and then 3-d -> 2-d conversion. The whole opening shot reminds me of a panoramic photo stretching the image and distorting it slightly.
I can see similarities between the policeman and John Hurt, but I’m not convinced. I think he could be passing on his rounds, but the frozen in time affect makes it look as if he’s guarding instead. However the idea that he’s watching over the scrapyard is intriguing – protecting his future?
The opening sequence being in black and white and then going into colour as soon as the Doctor was on screen was interesting – if this was a tribute to the shows black and white origins, I’d have expected it to stay that way until later – so was this a hint that there is a pre-history awaiting ‘colouring in’? I think we are going to see an origins story – the day he becomes The Doctor, with the events for D10, D11 and the Hurt Doctor proving the catalyst that leads D1 to leave Gallifrey.
I do like the Doctor-Zero theories, mainly because the Doctor 8.5 concept has never felt right for me , although I still lean towards the HurtDoctor being a future incarnation who has crossed, and interfered with, his own timeline (hence D11 talking about him in the past tense, because it happened in his past, even though the HurtDoctor is his future) – I like the idea of a trinity of past, present and future Docs on screen together, and it adds a twist to multi-doctor stories that hasn’t been seen before. It would also allow a theme of the special to be ‘your future isn’t written yet’, which fits with the canon neutralising that the GI storyline has accomplished.
I saw Susan in the globe reflection – so I’m sticking with my Clara’s mum is Susan under a chameleon arch theory! But actually, I think this was just a tribute to the show’s history – first companion, latest companion and most enduring companion (on the grounds Sarah Jane bridged BG and AG Who) all in the same sequence. I was also convinced it was Paul McGann doing the voiceover at first, blending in to Matt Smith later on. Most of us seem convinced that the anniversary will touch on the Time War to some degree anyway, so is this another hint (or my overactive imagination?)
On another note, @enlighteneddespot – good point about the ‘fall of the eleven’ . Dorium has already corrected the wording of the prophecy on screen, but this just adds emphasis to the fact that anything can subtly change in the telling over time – particularly when it’s word of mouth. One way or another (and I think you’ve highlighted the two most likely ways), I think we’re going to find that prophecy doesn’t mean what we are currently reading it as meaning.
23 October 2013 at 11:05 #19114On reflection though, we’ve become accustomed to the idea that Moffat likes to tease so it would be foolish to assume there isn’t something hidden in there.
i agree , that is just moffat style , trailer is full of clues
I can see similarities between the policeman and John Hurt, but I’m not convinced. I think he could be passing on his rounds, but the frozen in time affect makes it look as if he’s guarding instead.like you , i dont think hurt is the policeman , but i also think he wasnt put in the beggining of the trailer by acident , so maybe he is guarding something ,or has some other role
I do like the Doctor-Zero theories, mainly because the Doctor 8.5 concept has never felt right for me , although I still lean towards the HurtDoctor being a future incarnation who has crossed, and interfered with, his own timeline
the doctor between 8 -9 would be to complicated , i also prefer future over zero doctor , maybe he tried to go back to time war and change it , creating paradoxes like you say . Smith says in the trailer, the time has come to face the choises i have made in the name of the doctor ( trenzelore must be somekind of judgement day) and he says , our future depends on one single moment of one imposible day , so there must be somekind of one moment frozen by hurt , or somebody else .
good point about the ‘fall of the eleven’ . Dorium has already corrected the wording of the prophecy on screen
the silenceence will fall , most of us think this means when the doctors name is out , its an end for all . But it has been said in a few episodes , that the silence is somekind of cult , so i expect this to have a much more deeper meaning . sorry for spelling
23 October 2013 at 12:03 #19118Excellent analysis. I’m don’t really agree about this:
I do like the Doctor-Zero theories, mainly because the Doctor 8.5 concept has never felt right for me
I’m in the other camp on that one. I find D0 concept hard to believe as the Hartnell Doctor seems so lost at the beginning. To me he has little practical experience in time travel (the difference say between being an Historian academic and actually experiencing real off world things for the first time) who grows into being the Doctor over the first series. Hartnell’s regeneration also seems to be his first actual experience of the process. From the pictures/image, more than anything else, Hurt Doctor seems much more of a commanding figure. It would almost be like reverse character development to go from Hurt to Hartnell. Of course I’m influenced by my BG Who background, Moffat shown that he’s happy to Retcon most things to fit in with his concepts.
I agree through, the feel does seem to be that we may get an explanation of who Susan is and why the Doctor left Gallifrey (running for all my lives.. to paraphrase the voice over).
Cheers
Nick
23 October 2013 at 12:30 #19125I agree through, the feel does seem to be that we may get an explanation of who Susan is and why the Doctor left Gallifrey (running for all my lives.. to paraphrase the voice over).
apsolutelly agree on that one , that reflection in the globe has so have some meaning , we didnt see all 50 companions in the trailer , just the one related to the plot
Only thing remaining is the main villains role and plan , but as time goes on i think it will be more like doctor versus doctor , than doctor against daleks or omega or master.
That could work ,in episode beeing great , but i would put master in , with somekind of crazy plan , it would feel rigt for the special episode
23 October 2013 at 12:40 #19126@nick – I was intrigued by the ‘Hurt Doctor as Doctor 0’ theories, but I think you’ve hit on something with this:
It would almost be like reverse character development to go from Hurt to Hartnell.
Unless … unless … is Moffat going to completely retcon the history of the show, and present to us in the 50th a way for a seemingly war-weary ‘commanding figure’ as you say, to turn into the ‘Historian academic’ who then had the chance to experience practically what he’s only to this point in time studied?
I don’t know … it seems a bit of a stretch. I think I’m leaning toward Time War Doc for John Hurt. I mean, he’s wearing an ammo belt for sonic screwdrivers! Ammo belts mean war. But whether he’s 8.5 or a future incarnation, I think there is still much bonkers theorising to be done.
23 October 2013 at 12:53 #19128@Shazzbot
even as I was trying to summarise my thoughts, I was aware that it could be done (and could be done in a convincing way too). But I can’t find anything in myself that makes me feel likes its something that SHOULD be done. Yes Hartnell Doctor and Susan left Gallifrey for a reason and BG Who hints at what this might have been, but to make Hurt D0 who starts/ends/fights the Time War and only show us the psychological damage that this does to the Doctor from Eccleston onwards doesn’t feel right to me. Again I’m sure this too could be convincingly explained of course.
I have to therefore think that if the 50th show does explain the start (and Susan) then the explanation has to be something other than what we’ve seen/hinted at in Moffat arcs. Like the Doctor’s real Gallifreyean name, I can’t help thinking that any actual explanation shown will be less useful than the ambiguity we have had to date for the future of Who on TV.
Cheers
Nick
23 October 2013 at 13:00 #19130I think that Hurt is the ‘Rose as Bad Wolf’ Dr. That means that Mr Ecclestone kissed John Hurt.
Suitably bonkers?23 October 2013 at 13:14 #19131Hi @nick
…It would almost be like reverse character development to go from Hurt to Hartnell…
I don’t disagree with you on this – I was intending to make the point that I’ve been enjoying reading the Doctor Zero theories because I’m not keen on the 8.5 idea, but that is where the thrust of discussion has been. My knowledge of the First Doctor is scant, but the lost, historian, almost hermit exile could perhaps be a shocked reaction to what he’d become in his previous incarnation? I’m not sure, but any new line of speculation is always fun.
My problem with the D8.5 theory is not dissimilar to yours with the DZero theory – the Doctor has only just regenerated in ‘Rose’ but is immediately introducing himself as The Doctor. If his previous incarnation had lost/shunned the title, was he able on regenerating to just say, actually, sorry about that blip, I’m The Doctor again now? I can see the PTSD throughout D9’s series, but I just can’t see that he was trying to reclaim his title, to prove himself as the Doctor once more. So I can’t imagine he’d be comfortable as the Doctor without some sort of redemption prior to regeneration for the HurtDoctor – but if he’s been redeemed, why would his future self still be denying that he is/was the Doctor?
Consequently, I find most of my speculation on the HurtDoctor fits better with him as a future incarnation, particularly given Moffat’s love of loops and paradoxes, and the difficulties of retconning the history of either D1 or D9 without either of the actors. However, future incarnation is proving a rather lonely drum!
Cheers, OH
23 October 2013 at 13:23 #19133Yes, Hurt could be a future Doctor (between Smith and Capaldi say). The only substantive objection I’m aware of (bound to be others though) is that D11 refers to him in the past tense. This and the apparent link to the Time War lends itself to a pre-11 setting better than a post 11. That said, I’m always (probably) going to have problems reconciling myself to the whole impossible girl narrative which opens the door to whatever retcon element Moffat wants to include so to an extent its a difficult place to debate right now.
Cheers
Nick
23 October 2013 at 13:42 #19134but to make Hurt D0 who starts/ends/fights the Time War and only show us the psychological damage that this does to the Doctor from Eccleston onwards doesn’t feel right to me.
Great point !
This and the apparent link to the Time War lends itself to a pre-11 setting better than a post 11.
Yes that is true , but i cant see why the future doctor wouldnt have had an influence on the time war , he could have gone back in time , we dont know the whole history of the war , so i expect maybe part of the war going on in the future
23 October 2013 at 14:54 #19135I like the idea of a trinity of past, present and future Docs on screen together
So do I. Reading the recent posts, and fortified by a morning espresso, I just re-watched parts of “The Name of the Doctor”, and I think it is entirely possible that the Hurt Doctor is not only a future Doctor, but the LAST Doctor–the Doctor that the Great Intelligence refers to in the past, whose end came in a minor skirmish that was too much for the old man. The problem (for the 11th Doctor–and for us the audience) is that this is ultimately what the Doctor has (or potentially will) become, someone who really is “blood-soaked”.
To go back to my point about the use of words in the mini trailer (ie, “lives” and “our future”) I wonder if, in some way that I haven’t figured out yet, the entire succession of Doctors (the separate “lives”) are threatened, and that, in some time-wimey Moffat way, the only solution to this terrible potential future of a blood-soaked Doctor is for the Doctor is to completely and utterly re-write the past (in order to undo the actions of the “last” Doctor, the Hurt Doctor) so that the previous Doctors (somewhat like Rory) have never existed, but are “alive” as long as we remember them.
In a way, such a resolution would tie into my 4th wall theory. As the show (and the Doctor) goes forward, it is in a unverse where the previous Doctors never existed, but one where they exist in our (ie, the audience’s) memories, and survive (like the lost episodes) as memories.
Time for another espresso, and more thought.
23 October 2013 at 15:53 #19137@blenkindsophtebrave
and I think it is entirely possible that the Hurt Doctor is not only a future Doctor, but the LAST Doctor
yes yes
whose end came in a minor skirmish that was too much for the old man. this is ultimately what the Doctor has (or potentially will) become, someone who really is “blood-soaked”.
i disagree with you , i dont see the doctor as a bitter old man , crazy old man yes, but bitter in defeat never . I dont think that he will become bloodsoaked , just a old crazy man who made one big mistake ,and not somekind of rambo killing maschine
To go back to my point about the use of words in the mini trailer (ie, “lives” and “our future”) I wonder if, in some way that I haven’t figured out yet, the entire succession of Doctors (the separate “lives”) are threatened, and that, in some time-wimey Moffat way, the only solution to this terrible potential future of
i like where this is going ! but with the different ending then yours . i have no ideas ..
23 October 2013 at 15:54 #19138The only substantive objection I’m aware of (bound to be others though) is that D11 refers to him in the past tense. This and the apparent link to the Time War lends itself to a pre-11 setting better than a post 11.
This could be explained away by the timing of the HurtDoctor’s actions though. If the actions that were not in the name of the Doctor occur during the anniversary special, then they will be witnessed by both D10 and D11. Therefore, when D11 refers to him in the past tense, it is accurate because he witnessed those events when he was D10 – the event was in his past, even though the HurtDoctor is (at present) his future. If those events refer to the time war, he may have witnessed them many times.
Presumably, as D11 has already witnessed these events once (when still D10) and remembers, he will somehow alter them, breaking out of the loop. This redeems his future self while making the future ambiguous once more so he doesn’t have to become the HurtDoctor.
Series 7 has explored this kind of loop several times – The Girl Who Waited, JTTCOTT for example. I think this is shadowing the much larger loop we’ve been watching.
23 October 2013 at 16:16 #19139@blenkinsopthebrave Your end to the episode would be a kick in the stomach for every fan. I do not think they will ever go for that “everything never happened” theory.
Especially for viewers of the first hour /first epidode.
23 October 2013 at 16:26 #19140Actually, I was, as a 12 year-old, a viewer of the very first episode back when it was screened in Australia in 1964 (just after its English debut). And I have grown up and grown old with the show.
It all depends on how it is done.
Knowing the way Moffat writes, whatever he does he will do it with heart-strings being tugged and hearts soaring.
Of course, my idea may also be the result of caffeine-induced delirium…
23 October 2013 at 17:56 #19141Therefore, when D11 refers to him in the past tense, it is accurate because he witnessed those events when he was D10 – the event was in his past, even though the HurtDoctor is (at present) his future.
I had an argument with @scaryb over the same thing , he was saying like nick , and i wrote that he refered to paste tence , becouse the 11th already knows what hurt did in the future so for him to say it like that would make sence
23 October 2013 at 18:24 #19144@blenkinsopthebrave Well then I do not get how or why you could let that happen to the past 50 years? All just a memory and not relevant for anything anymore. If Moffat thought of that he would not have needed to invent Clara so she re-writes anything and everything or nothing, depending on the story.
23 October 2013 at 18:40 #19149From @htpbdet regarding the trailer:
I vaguely wonder if the figure with his back to Tennant might be Capaldi … having somehow regenerated from a fusion of Smith, Tennant and Hurt. My “old trinity theory”.
23 October 2013 at 18:46 #19152No conclusions, just some thoughts.
If the Hurt Doctor is indeed the Last and Zeroth; the Last Doctor who also causes the whole line of Doctors, then the Smith Doctor might refer to the events as being in the past even though they’re also in the future. Personally, however, I’d say that the Smith Doctor’s use of the past tense (He’s the one who broke the promise) suggest that the Hurt Doctor is most likely to be the Time War Doctor. As @htpbdet said, that doesn’t stop him also being Doctor Zero; the one who started off the whole ‘Doctor’ thing.
Another possibility: we’ve seen The History of the Time War; the TARDIS was very careful to make sure Clara saw it as well. It could be that The History of the Time War is significant in the same way the Melody Malone novel is significant in Angels Take Manhattan. The Doctor (whichever Doctor) has, unfortunately, read it. He read his own future before he realised that he’d taken another name. He’s now stuck with acting out the history of that future.
In terms of our Easter Egg trailer – the figure with the ammo belt is facing the Tennant Doctor. The BG Doctors are caught in various ‘action’ poses and don’t seem very aware of anything beyond their little time pockets. The AG Doctors are all facing towards the BG scenes (and Eight is hidden, and sideways, so that you can’t really see if he’s frozen in his own time pocket, or was reacting to the mysterious figure).
The Eccleston Doctor is facing all the earlier Doctors, as if he’s either holding them back or is horrified by what’s happened to them. The Tennant Doctor is very much in a ‘you want to get to the Smith Doctor, chum? Get past me first’ pose. And the Smith Doctor is the only one in the whole thing who we see moving.
23 October 2013 at 18:47 #19153I think Hurt blows the tardis up and destroyes the universe to end the war , like in big bang smith did . tardis exists in all space and time , so maybe there is a link here .
in a comic con trailer hurt says great men are fordged in war
23 October 2013 at 19:02 #19155@bluesqueakpip ! That is genius!
Another possibility: we’ve seen The History of the Time War; the TARDIS was very careful to make sure Clara saw it as well. It could be that The History of the Time War is significant in the same way the Melody Malone novel is significant in Angels Take Manhattan. The Doctor (whichever Doctor) has, unfortunately, read it. He read his own future before he realised that he’d taken another name. He’s now stuck with acting out the history of that future.
Changed his name and acted out his future because he had no choice in big decisions. Love it. Because it is history he does what he did. And there wont be too much detail about companions or anthing so he has left a bit of free will….. just genius.
Do you guys remember the Doctor explaining to Churchill that he knows a secret that should never be revealed? Never be spoken? Maybe he talks of the construction of ‘the moment’? Or how to use it? Does he tell himself how to do it? And the Silence for some reason is involved in stopping the time lock? The most dangerous thing because without the timelords time itself became less stable?
What do you think?
23 October 2013 at 19:41 #19157What about this ?
J. Hurt playes the 9th doctor , who ends the time war by blowing the tardis up , and destroyes the universe .
And then Rose , as bad wolf ( using time lord things ) manages to bring back the universe and the 10 doctor back to life , like amy did in big bang similar
Only condicion is the doctor can never go to trenzelore, where hurt blows the universe up
I like this theory !
23 October 2013 at 19:52 #19158the tardis looking like a giant grave at trenzelore
23 October 2013 at 19:59 #19162In a way, such a resolution would tie into my 4th wall theory. As the show (and the Doctor) goes forward, it is in a unverse where the previous Doctors never existed, but one where they exist in our (ie, the audience’s) memories, and survive (like the lost episodes) as memories.
I was only looping back about 5 years – this does the full 50! Suitably bonkers, possibly a goer for resetting the show for the next 50 years. Would have to be very well done though to avoid making it feel like a ‘and it was all a dream’ cop out, as @timeloop says, it could have the potential for really annoying people.
Likewise I feel the Hurt Doctor could be the one referenced by the GI, particularly if he has traveled in his own time line and been involved in other battles. If the Doctor is now stuck only being able to go anywhere in his own time stream (from Gallifrey to Trenzalore) it could explain why it appeared to be D11’s TARDIS used as the tomb.
The Eccleston Doctor is facing all the earlier Doctors, as if he’s either holding them back or is horrified by what’s happened to them. The Tennant Doctor is very much in a ‘you want to get to the Smith Doctor, chum? Get past me first’ pose. And the Smith Doctor is the only one in the whole thing who we see moving.
I like this. Sure there’s a theory in there… food for thought and doesn’t rely on positioning the hurt doctor anywhere 😉 Think the Smith Doctor moving is a reference to moving through the timestream, the only Doctor who still has flexibility to twist, turn and… change?
@d12345 –
I had an argument with @scaryb over the same thing
As my father would say, we don’t argue, we debate. Sometimes intensely. But then, he’s a teacher.
23 October 2013 at 23:55 #19177Good to see the Doctor Zero (and who’s the last Doctor) debate getting an airing. I think it’s strongly hinted (as I said before) that Matt could be the last… except that we have Capaldi coming up (“spoilers!” 😉 )
But sorry @blenkinsopthebrave I really don’t believe there’s any way that Moffat will negate the last 50 years of the show’s history in a “it was all a dream” moment as Capaldi steps out of the swimming pool, in the 50th anniversary year. Although I wouldn’t put it past him to suggest that the last 50/900 years takes place within 1 day! (time travel and all that)
Why are we all so worried about a reboot/reset? The show’s history’s been effectively reset regularly since 2005 starting with the Time War and most recently with Amy’s memories and then with the GI and then Clara jumping into the Doctor’s (already decaying) timestream.
As a result of the Doctor visiting Trenzalore and going into his own timestream he now knows that he very probably dies at Trenzalore and he’s reminded of the suppressed memory that is Hurt.
@bluesqueakpip I love your hugely detailed analysis of all the Doctors’ relative positions. I’m not saying these aren’t irrelevant (especially Tennant) but I think it’s very significant that Eleven can move at all, and he moves decisively. Now Eleven has just found out that the Doctors’ history looks like it’s coming to a bit of an abrupt end and he’d probably really rather avoid that if possible. He therefore has to go back and change a few things in his own history.
But if it’s his own history he can’t change it (timey wimey paradoxes and all that (ref – The Day of the Daleks)). But MAYBE HurtDr can, since he is not acknowledged as being the Doctor. So Matt has to back to enlist his help in a bit of wibbly wobbly timey wimey jiggery pokery. They have to bring HurtDr back into the fold in order to save all the Doctors.
Just thinking – in all the multi Doctor stories, there’s usually been a bit of harrumphing as a previous Doctor grumps about his later incarnation’s new habits (You’ve been redecorating – I don’t like it 😉 ) If HurtDr is Doctor Zero ie preHartnell, AND he’s the Policeman (or someone who goes for expediency over principle) – he’s going to be as horrified at how they’ve (he’s) turned out as Eleven is (in NotD) when he remembers what HurtDr did.
24 October 2013 at 02:39 #19184Oh, yee of little faith! OK, I suppose I will have to come up with a different bonkers theory.
Not better, of course (what could be?) but different.
24 October 2013 at 11:31 #19192I think you’re right in that there will be a reset, but it will be the culmination of the change in direction that’s been gradually been worked in under Moffat. I’m still hanging in there for a Kennedy/4th Wall break – but I’d settle for just the return of Canton, haha
24 October 2013 at 12:23 #19201You may well be right there. Apart from the 13 Doctor limit and the Doctors PTSD driven personality, just what can really be “reset” in your opinion ? (or perhaps better expressed as what would you (or any one else Dear Forumers) change given the chance ?).
I take your point about the various resets and why should we be worried by it. (personally I would say I sit as some sort of mélange between concerned, slightly bothered and perturbed amongst others). I’m not sure I have an answer to that question and truth be told, I probably won’t be able to think about answering it until I see how the various plot arc strands we’ve seen under Moffat’s term pan out [which is something I do believe we’ll see before he departs as showrunner]. All I can say right now, is that I’ve found too much to be unsatisfying for me, although I have really liked Moffat’s ambition to try something.
Cheers
Nick
24 October 2013 at 13:29 #19208I’ve just realised something.
The Silence were essentially good guys!
Silence will fall when the question is asked.
The question – Whats your name Doctor?
The silence – the death of the universe and all the people he has saved.
We only assume that after the GI changed everything and Clara jumped in everything else came back. We know Strax, Jenny and Madame Vastra did but they are in the Eye of the Storm so to speak.
What if not everything did / Clara didn’t stop everything? Could something have changed for the worse? Could something be released?
Did the Silence forsee the Doctor jumping in as well and does that negate all Claras changes if the timestream is collapsing?
I think it will be significant that the Silence aren’t around when the question is asked (we know that they are in AGMGTW and I’m assuming its future set) and I think they’ll be featuring for sure as they are trying to save the world (through nefarious means)
25 October 2013 at 02:55 #19262Moffat has played the proverbial blinder in having the episode immediately pre-the 50th have a (disrupted) version of the Doc’s entire timestream / life / lives and by also introducing the Hurt Doctor character.
It means he can basically do anything he wants for the 50th, including killing off Matt. Add in Capaldi’s announcement as the next Doctor and you could even throw in an early surprise regeneration.
Why is this genius? Well it give us lot almost unlimited scope for bonkers theories, obv.
I don’t think Moffat will destroy 50 years of the show by doing some kind of major retcon (sorry @blenkinsopthebrave – and no 4th wall, I think). Although as I have said before, his tinkering with the Doc’s timestream could help explain away any anomalies in the BG show (eg Unit dating conundrum).
I like @bluesqueakpip ‘s 50 years in one day idea, as that wouldn’t minimise the previous adventures, just allow us to look at them in a different way. Although it could border on the “it was all a dream” trope if done badly.
There has been alot of emphasis on the previous Docs, both in tNofD and also the trailer; I can’t believe this is anything but deliberate – Moffat priming the AG Who fans about the BG Docs. To what end though?
I suspect Moffat has a huge arc planned out and will resolve / explain some of the many things that people have mentioned many times on this Forum. The Van Gogh two/three Tardises/ Tardii painting will be significant – I can feel it in my water. Either multi Tardii crashing or multi Tardii being produced / born.
My feeling about the oft-quoted Susan is that she (possibly in another form) may make an appearance in the 50th but maybe won’t be revealed fully until the more Grandfatherly Capaldi takes over.
Apologies for the long post – things, chest, off, getting – please rearrange. Hopefully my ramblings have passed grammar muster and there are enough paragraphs to ensure the slightly-less-lexic among us have no difficulties. 🙂
25 October 2013 at 03:52 #19265Nice summing up @whohar and I agree with most of what you say. As to the 50 years in a day theory, I think you’ll find that the full title is the 50/900 years in a day. For prev refs to this see posts #18970 and #19177 (and earlier but I can’t remember how I ref’d it).. and er, ahem! you might want to check the author as well!!
25 October 2013 at 07:33 #19267ah, so many good ideas percolating around here! to whomever first came up with the 50(900) years in a day idea… that’s brilliant! some sort of reset/universe(s) reboot is surely afoot, as the doctor has to somehow rewrite his history (or prevent his future) to survive… and for the show to carry on? or, maybe just because moffat loves a good reset so much!
though i’ve not seen the mcgann movie, yet, i do wish that the reset (assuming there’ll be one) would only go as far back as the time war, breaking/removing the time lock (and freeing the time lords and daleks)… perhaps even preventing it altogether? removing the “baggage” of being (practically) the last of his race would free up the doctor to go back to travelling the universes, as before, without always being targeted by his enemies to such a desperate degree. (i think others have expressed a desire to have the time lords return, as well?)
and i like to wonder if moffat ever considered bringing back mcgann, who could pick up his sonic after the 50th and move forward as the “next” doctor? (assuming he’d want to do it, of course. and with no slight intended to capaldi, who i expect will be solid, if not quite up to matt’s level.) THAT would be a huge surprise for all fans, BG and AG alike!
wouldn’t it? 🙂
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