The Day of the Doctor

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  • #21653

    @scaryb

    Nah. It’s a classic trusted PA trope. Important people have “people”. She is Kate’s  Clara to the Doctor’s..er.. Clara.

    #21654
    DickieGarvey @dickiegarvey

    I will admit that there did appear to be something more between Kate and Osgood but as to what I have o idea, although i do feel that it is one of those things that is dropped into an episode so that it can be reused in further plot linees but if it isnt “oh well”.

    With Matt telling Tennant about Trenzalor i feel that he has “solved it and we will be back there in the xmas episode but not straight away.

    going to have a rewatch again to see if i missed anything 🙂

    #21656
    thommck @thommck

    @scaryb, @Shazzbot, I was confused a bit about Osgood’s relationship with Kate.

    They definitely behaved like mother/daughter in that telephone scene. That would explain why she is such a fangirl of the Doctor and expects so much of him (probably lots of her bedtime stories were filled with his adventures).

    However, later on I thought how army/government types do say “mum” sometimes instead of “ma’am”.

    If she is definitely her daughter, why not bill her as so? Nothing shows up on a quick google of “Osgood Lethbridge Stewart” (though plenty of Stewart Osgood!). That name reveals a wonderful amount of anagrams. I think my favourites are “A Bewildered Ghosts Grotto”, “Bittersweet Shard God Logo” and “Sweetheart Robot Digs Gold” 😛
    http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=osgood+lethbridge+stewart&t=1000&a=n

    Her initials could postentially be O.S. (Osgood Stewart) which also stands for Operating System, so maybe she is part of the Moment, or a similar device 😉

    </bonkers>

    #21657
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @pedant

    Nah. It’s a classic trusted PA trope. Important people have “people”. She is Kate’s  Clara to the Doctor’s..er.. Clara.

    Doesn’t rule out a mother/daughter relationship tho. Bring your kids to work and all that. Osgood comes over more as intern than “trusted PA”. She’s hanging about, not quite sure where she fits in yet, she seems new to things, but very keen.

    @thommck

    If she is definitely her daughter, why not bill her as so*

    Spoilers!!

    😉

     

    *As she’s Kate’s daughter (cos I say so!) her surname probably wouldn’t be Lethbridge-Stewart (love the anagram potential)

    #21658
    DickieGarvey @dickiegarvey

    Just came across this little nugget and i seems to fit alot of bills and this seemd the sensible place to put it

    “Doctor regeneration X has the face of 4, which yes we know can happen, because that’s how they explain Romana II having the face of a previous character (same actress; Romana said she liked the appearance of the other character and chose to emanate that in her regeneration). 4.1 decides he wants to retire and be the curator, so he leaves his life as the Doctor, becomes John Smith, gets married to a human, has a daughter, who he fondly calls “Osgood,” (check the credits). She grows up genetically a half-human/half-time lord, which makes her prone to long term illness, like asthma, very intelligent, slightly awkward and raised on the stories of her childhood hero, The Doctor. Never telling her who he is, he gives her his scarf, and gets her a job at Unit as an assistant to the Brigadier’s daughter, and she spends her life saving the planet and silently envying her physically perfect, beautiful 100% Time-Lord sister Jenny

     

    #21667
    stevethewhistle @steve-thorp

    Re: The Last Day

    As there doesn’t seem to be a blog for “The Last Day”……

    Was that Christopher Eccleston doing the voice over, or just someone with a very similar accent?

    #21671
    curvedspace @curvedspace

    @badwolfie My personal headcannon for 9/Rose Tyler had been that while Eccleston doesn’t remember her, he maybe remembers her subconsciously. Hence the instant connection and fondness. But I think I like your idea better: that he remembers her from before the time stream memory loss and goes to look for her!

    In my theater Billie Piper, Tennant and Baker got the biggest cheers, with Eccleston being a close second. Lots of older people in 4th Doctor scarves in the crew. Couple of girls in the TARDIS dress, lots of bow ties, and an enterprising young man in a handmade Cyberman helmet. At first I wondered why Matt got little audience reaction, and then I figured that everyone’s used to loving him and so was cheering for the special treat of their favorites onscreen. @geoffers I too am glad I saw it at home; I would have missed some key lines otherwise, and this way I could enjoy my favorite parts on the big screen. Someone got up to nip to the loo just before the scene with John Hurt and the Big Red Button — I felt really bad for him.

    Upon rewatch I concocted a fun potential Moffat could have done. Not should have done, by any means, but could have. When he had to sneak in an extra regeneration of the Doctor, he could have made it a woman. Or a person of color. On the one hand, everyone would have screamed: how come it’s the woman/PoC that would have committed genocide, oh how sexist/racist of you Evil!Moffat! And yes, since the story is in large part about the Doctor integrating and healing himself, probably a gender switch at this narrative point didn’t make sense.

    All that aside, it would have been really interesting had the Sisterhood decided that “Warrior” meant Woman — and why wouldn’t they think that? — and regenerated the Doctor into someone like Zoe from Firefly, or Helen Mirrin, or [insert tough&awesome woman here]. I’m actually quite pleased with what Moffat chose to do instead; I even think that inserting Hurt rather than playing the story out with Eccleston made for a better story (even though I would have LOVED to see Eccleston on the screen again). Still. I think Moffat needs to find some opportunities to play with the Doctor’s gender and race in a story where he can back out of it if everyone hates it.

    #21682
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    What’s that weird woman doing in John Hurt’s shed?

    #21683
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    how come it’s the woman/PoC that would have committed genocide, oh how sexist/racist of you Evil!Moffat!

    @curvedspace – this. We have enough screaming when they cast black actors as the Van Balen brothers – though since the person concerned only appeared to even notice black actors if they were playing villains, I wasn’t too impressed. The only female/black Doctor to date gets to press the ‘Destroy Gallifrey’ button? That has Unfortunate Implications written all over it. 😉

    There is a consistent rumour that the role of the Doctor has already been offered to a black actor, but they turned it down. Certainly I’d say Moffat’s done more for the cause of a female Doctor than previous producers (well, short of actually casting a woman). It’s under his watch that it’s become canonical that Time Lords can a) switch genders and b) the Doctor, specifically, has the option of being a woman.

    #21686
    Anonymous @

    I know I’m sliding in waaaay too late here, but I’m re-watching the special on iPlayer and I’m reminded of something I thought before … I’m a bit disappointed that ‘the last, great war’ – The Time War – is a lot of splodey things, and fires, and people being flung about by explosions.  (Although now I know what Danny Hargreaves was talking about in Friday’s ExCel thingy, when asked what special effect sequence he was most proud of.  🙂  He said, ‘You’ll know when you see the 50th.’)

    I was a bit hoping that a ‘Time War’ would be a little less, well, explicitly like any war we as humans know.  Something a bit more timey-wimey, more cerebral, and less like ‘Let’s Kill Everyone and Smash All the Buildings With Laser Guns and Rockets.’

    Not that I’m knocking D Hargreave’s wondrous special effects, nor the impact those effects have in this day ‘n age on mass entertainment.

    Just … just … ‘Time War’?  Where was the ‘time’ in all of that ‘war’?  What was being fought over?  How do all those laser death-rays fit into the concept of a ‘time war’?  Perhaps I’m being overly semantically pedantic, but this just seems like plain vanilla bloody ‘war’ to me.  To the victor go the spoils, so they say … so what were each side (Daleks, Time Lords) as victors hoping to get as the spoils?  Simply, a world ethnically cleansed of ‘the other’?

    #21687

    @Shazzbot

    I’m a bit disappointed that ‘the last, great war’ – The Time War – is a lot of splodey things, and fires, and people being flung about by explosions.

    It was the last day of the War – and pretty close to the end game, with or without the Doctor. Any squadie will tell you that wars are won by taking land, with troops on the ground fighting door-to-door and finally by taking “the citadel”. Think ‘Soviet Army entering Berlin’. Much had preceded it (not least boffins breaking German codes), but the end game was bloody and final, last man standing (or last Dalek in Gallifrey’s case).

    And we already know the Time Lord High Council is about to end the Universe. High Command, meanwhile, was was defending the fortress…

    And it was hard to be more timey….WHAT? than the ultimate solution.

    @scaryb

    I dunno – Scottish ears must be faulty. That was ma’am. Not ifs, no buts. She’s a Surrey girl – went to Tiffin’s, for heaven’s sake. Trust me, I know my Estuarine (all these posh girls get it wrong – it’s supposed to be pronounced “mam”).

    #21688

    @curvedspace @badwolfie

    The Empty Child:

    Rose: “Look at you, beaming away like you’re Father Christmas!”
    The Doctor: “Who says I’m not, red-bicycle-when-you-were-twelve?”

    #21691
    Anonymous @

    @scaryb – this is an encapsulation of what I find so fascinating about batting theories / ideas back ‘n forth with other people!  You, as a parent, instantly read Osgood and Kate’s relationship as daughter and mother.  I, as a non-parent (except of the furry and four-legged variety), but with decades of Office experience under my belt, read their relationship instead as ‘maternal boss with workplace underling’.

    I didn’t see the ‘inhaler!’ exhortations as anything other than a boss ensuring her valued employee remembered her medication in order for her to remain effective in a potential crisis.  In fact, the rote recitation of ‘inhaler!’ instead made me think of the people I’d managed when I was a team leader, and when I would bark out similar instructions to keep my team on track.

    I’m loving that you and I are at odds on this particular point.  As firmly as your own feet are in the ground on ‘Osgood is The Mighty Lethbridge-Stewart’s granddaughter’, my own feet are firmly in the ground opposite, pulling the rope toward ‘Osgood is a lowly UNIT employee / personal assistant who has triggered the maternal instincts of her female boss whilst working together over several months.’

    #21696
    Timeloop @timeloop

    Where are you @juniperfish ? Caught in RL? Looking forward to your answer!

    #21697
    DenValdron @denvaldron

    I’d be very skeptical of any kind of direct parental relationship between Kate Lethbridge-Stuart and Osgood.  I just don’t see any foundation for it, and no sign of anything like familiarity.

    #21699
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Yay!! Controversy 🙂

    Am fine if people don’t see a closer relationship between Osgood and Kate, but it’s certainly open to that interpretation (for the reasons in my post above) – so in the absence of concrete evidence to the contrary, I’m sticking to it. 😀  (@shazzbot – O doesn’t look nearly familiar enough with her situation to have been around for long – certainly not long enough for Kate to have acquired the “inhaler!” instinct)

    I MAY concede to @pedant that my ears have possibly been to a few too many loud gigs in their time 🙂

    #21703
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Nice joke about the UNIT dating by Data Protocols…

    #21708
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @juniperfish !!!!!!! I just found this and see my theory fully intact. So happy right now.

     

    “So that was the story – of course he never did that, he couldn’t. He’s the Doctor – he’s the man who doesn’t do that. He’s defined by the fact that he doesn’t do that, whatever the cost, he will find another way. So it had to be the story of what really happened, that he’s forgotten. Of course he didn’t – he’s Doctor Who! He doesn’t do things like that!”
    -Steven Moffat

    #21710

    @scaryb

    Also, when Osgood rescued Kate from the ….er…..network of lower intestines or whatever it was….she very clearly called her Kate and, when they were confronting the Zygons, Kate called her Osgood.

    That ain’t filial!

    NOW

    Very early on in Matt’s run, around TBB or VotD he was asked about family by Amy and he said he’s lost it an then breezed on saying it was a “Bad time” – which prompted comment on the Graun, I recall. Now we know why

    Also also, the Doctor is now a father and grandfather again!

    #21711

    @timeloop – closed-loop causality FTW!

    #21713
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb – I’m doubtful that Osgood is Kate’s daughter. Not because of ‘ma’am’ versus ‘mum’ (I think ma’am) but because when Osgood finds Kate alive she calls her, in her enormous relief, ‘Kate’.

    If Osgood was calling Kate ‘Mum’ earlier, she’d call her Mum then. Not suddenly switch to ‘Kate’.

    That said, I suspect Osgood is indeed Sgt Osgood’s daughter; part of the UNIT ‘family’. Kate’s probably known her from childhood and is used to playing the ‘big sister’. Osgood, outside working hours, probably does call her ‘Kate’. Given that we do know Osgood was incredibly jealous of her own older sister – not surprising if she’s latched onto Kate as a substitute.

    If ‘Downtime’ joins the Big Finish Audio series as ‘official backstory’, Kate’s son and the Brigadier’s grandson is called Gordon. He’d be around 22 or 23 – if he’s also a scientist he’d still be in postgrad. Gordon was the only child seen in Downtime, so I’d say that if Kate has any other children they’re likely to be teenagers at the oldest.

    #21718
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @Shazzbot Thanks for finding the correct attribution for the phoenix necklace spot to @lula !

    @timeloop Yes I saw that interview with Moffat and I also saw your earlier post re “The End of Time” when you’d re-checked that Gallifrey is indeed burning on-screen.

    The thing is, Moffat’s perspective doesn’t settle the question for me. Once you have released a piece of creative fiction into the world you cannot control its interpretations and nor should you attempt to. The new tendency of TV writers on Twitter and in interviews to tell us “what they meant” in their narratives is one I deplore, in particular as their commentary is often far more one dimensional than the possibilities afforded by their creative text. I am a firm believer that the creation/ the text is greater than the creator.

    Moffat and his writers’ team have spent his tenure writing about time loops, the re-writing of time, different time streams etc. and now this interview wants to reduce the complexity of that narrative to ‘ “it never happened” because I wrote over Russell T’s story-line? Just….. NO!  

    The entire “The Day of the Doctor” was about the Doctor re-writing his decision, not about him never making it.

    I have to say that if Moffat really believes the Doctor “… never did that, he couldn’t. He’s the Doctor – he’s the man who doesn’t do that” then his take on New Who is far less interesting and less bold than Russell T.’s.  It is also, as you point out, a textually inconsistent position, given the tone of Tennant and what we see on-screen in “The End of Time”.

    Ignore what Moffat says in interviews (when frankly he was probably a bit tipsy and simplifying anyway) and read the collective New Who text instead!

    Did Old Amy in Tom MacRae’s “The Girl Who Waited” “never exist”? She did, because we saw her story, and yet, her times-stream was over-written, because she helped young Amy not to get trapped in the way she had been in Re Anchor. Both time-streams exist for us, the audience, and for our understanding of the history of the characters, even though one goes forward and the other does not.

    Did the Doctor never burn Gallifrey? He did, because we saw it burning, and yet, its burning was over-written, because Clara helped two future versions of Hurt Doctor calculate how not to burn it. Both time-streams exist for us, the audience, an for our understanding of the history of the characters, even though one goes forward and the other does not.

    #21719
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @juniperfish – he was simplifying stuff. That there are two time streams is in the text – the Tennant Doctor, when they’re trying to persuade The General says:

    The Smith Doctor: Because the alternative is burning.
    The Tennant Doctor: And I’ve seen that.
    The Smith Doctor: And I never want to see it again.

    The Doctor would never do that. But the person who did wasn’t – at that moment – The Doctor. Once he’d found his way back to being The Doctor again (not the Warrior, not the Hero, not The Man Who Forgets), he realised that he could never do what he (the Smith Doctor, Clara’s own Doctor) was about to do. Not if he was to be a Doctor.

    However, as The Moment says, both the Smith Doctor and the Tennant Doctor think their version of the future is ‘real’. It’s not. Gallifrey burns in the ‘loop’ universe. From the point of view of the main timestream, Gallifrey is missing presumed destroyed and the Smith Doctor stopped his earlier selves from destroying it. That’s what ‘really’ happened. In that ‘real’ version of events, the Doctor forgot that his later self stepped in.

    Similarly, in Day of the Daleks, there’s an entire future history that never ‘really’ happens. You have to be inside the loop to think it did.

    #21722

    @Junpierfish

    Moffat and his writers’ team have spent his tenure writing about time loops, the re-writing of time, different time streams etc. and now this interview wants to reduce the complexity of that narrative to ‘ “it never happened” because I wrote over Russell T’s story-line? Just….. NO!

    Oh, nonononononono. I’m not letting you have that. “Reduce the complexity?” He is condemned to centuries of guilt for something he didn’t do,  and but for the intervention of Grandfather Baker – perhaps seeking to spare himself the pain – would never have known if his attempt to right a wrong had succeeded. Even though every viewer knows that he would always find an answer he doesn’t.

    It doesn’t get much more complex than that. Moffatt is all about what is happening in the character’s head, especially the poor lonely boy.

    #21724
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @pedant

    He is condemned to centuries of guilt for something he didn’t do.

    Ah but he did do it. The Ecclestone Doctor we first meet is wracked with guilt because he remembers that he made the decision to burn Gallifrey and time-lock the Time War with it burning inside. He made that decision and lo we see Gallifrey burning.

    For what other reason does the Billie Piper conscience of The Moment ensure Hurt to Eleven do not remember the Clara intervention? When Hurt Doctor says he does not want to survive his decision, she says that his punishment will be to live. Likewise the Doctor must live with the guilt of the genocide of the Time Lords, because he chose it. It’s not simply something he “didn’t do”.The “other way” he finds later in that moment does not obviate his initial choice.

    #21725
    WhoHar @whohar

    @wolfweed

    Nice joke about the UNIT dating by Data Protocols…

    Must have missed that. Does it solve the Unit dating conundrum? Details please?

    #21726
    WhoHar @whohar

    Anyone else wondering how Moffat is going to play out the Smith Doctor memory loss subplot?

    It’s been brewing for some time now, was mentioned in previous eps and now in the 50th but that didn’t seem (to me) to be the end of it.

    Perhaps Smith will completely lose his memory in the Christmas ep., find himself in some kind of mortal danger and be unable to regenerate. Maybe Clara helps him. Any other ideas?

    #21727

    @juniperfish

    For what other reason does the Billie Piper conscience of The Moment ensure Hurt to Eleven do not remember the Clara intervention?

    That was nothing to do with The Moment. The time lines were out of sync, War and Ten couldn’t retain the new information when they returned to their proper place in the order (as explained by Ten who was wholly unaware of The Moment’s interface). All The Moment did was let Hurt Doctor see the ghost of Christmas Yet To Be.

    She had a plan. It worked. But…

    …Nines torment…

    …Tens regretting…

    …Eleven’s forgetting…

    …were the collateral damage, the psychological torment of war, an entire herd of blind and invisible monsters. It doesn’t matter that he did the right thing, because Gallifrey was burning and it was doing so well before the Doctor stepped in and asked for the soldier’s gun. He had been fighting a long, long time (since at least the time of Claudius ;)). Nothing could heal that but Time Itself and the nightmares must have been horrific. You don’t need to commit genocide to carry the scars of war – you just need to go to war.

    Eleven, who had had a little practice dodging bullets, essentially pulled the same trick he did at Lake Silencio. Neither War nor Ten had that experience.- but there is no River to reassure the grieving.

    Why would The Moment – a conscience without an ego – let the children burn once, only to save them later? She needed one man in pain, convinced of his failure, to unwittingly learn how to do the right thing, to have the time to work it out. War goes into the barn. When he comes out Gallifrey is gone. The Deus ex Moment knew what she was doing.

    Ebenezer Scrooge was lucky – he was a bad man who could turn good. What can the good men do?

    Much like your mum and dad, closed loop causality fucks you up.

    #21729
    geoffers @geoffers

    @Shazzbot – re: the time war

    i interpret the phrase as “the war that raged throughout all of space and time, for control and influence of (and throughout) all of space and time.” both the daleks and time lords would rather die than be under the other’s control.

    also, most (if not all) of the doctor’s defeats of the daleks (on screen) could be considered skirmishes in the time war, if only from the daleks’ perspective. he is their main enemy, and so, the face of their enemies, the time lords. and the fact that he espouses higher personal ideals than those of the time lords, in general, is maybe something they just can’t understand? they don’t seperate his personal reasons for thwarting them, from the goals of the time lords in trying to defeat them?

    all those grand horrors that tennant mentions in ‘tEoT’ (the nightmare child, the degradations of skaro, etc.) probably have some sort of time ramifications, but putting them on screen, trying to show all that, is maybe beyond the scope of what can be filmed? like the ending of ‘2001: a space odyssey,’ it’s probably better left to our imaginations! 🙂

    and, as IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan pointed out, we’ve only seen (specifically) the very last day of the time war. first, in ‘the end of time’ (as an internal battle for the end of all space and time), and now in ‘tDotD,’ as what actually happened, from an historical point of view…

    @wolfweed – re: suspended in gaffa

    what an excellent spot! i wouldn’t be surprised if someone on the design team is a huge fan of kate’s work, as well! (if only we could get her videos in 3d, and up on a big screen.) the little motes of dust drifting about in that shack are an example of the subtle little things that i loved about the use of 3d for this movie… 🙂 🙂 🙂

    #21731
    geoffers @geoffers

    oh, one other thing i remembered. matt’s tardis did not have a broken window, at any point…

    and was anyone else disturbed by john hurt’s contact lenses? i wonder if they were there as part of the production, or if he just wears them, as i do, so that 3d glasses can be worn at the cinema? lol…

    #21733
    DenValdron @denvaldron

    geoffers   I’m not so sure that all of the Doctor’s skirmishes could be considered part of the Time War.   Some of them definitely were.   The thing is, that the abilities of the Daleks, and their magnitude of threat seem to vary from serial to serial.

    For instance, in ‘The Chase’ the third adventure of the Daleks in the Hartnell era, the Daleks exhibit time and space travelling abilities on a par with the Tardis.   They certainly don’t show these abilities in the original Dalek encounter, or in their invasion of Earth in the 22nd century, in the second Hartnell/Dalek story.

    On at least some stories in the old season/series, it really does appear that the Time War Daleks are at work.  But quite often, what we seem to be dealing with are earlier, more rubbishy Daleks with less sophisticated technology, and less mastery of Time and Space.

    Having said that, there’s clearly stuff that was part of the Time War.   For instance, in Genesis of the Daleks, the Tom Baker Doctor is sent directly by the Time Lords to try and stop the creation of the Daleks.   Essentially, genocide.  Something that the Time Lords normally frowned upon.   I think that that mission was probably at the behest of Time War Gallifrey.   Planet of the Daleks also has Gallifrey piloting the Tardis to a confrontation with earlier era Daleks.  Such early Daleks that the Thals of Skaro are still fighting.

    What it looks like to me, is that the Gallifrey of the Doctor’s future, the Gallifrey of the Time War, was at least on occasion reaching back through time, covertly, and firing the Doctor at various periods in their history to try and weaken or cripple them in some way.   That’s my theory, for what it’s worth.

    #21734
    dinolex99 @dinolex99

    To me everything is like this. The Time War has always ended like this, but since the War Doctor and the 10th Doctor couldn’t remember what they did, and they only thought that they burned gallifrey, that keeps everything in order, including the regeneration of the 10th doctor, which is a part in the time war which occurred before what the three doctors did in the 50th. Would I be correct?

    So really all this time Gallifrey is still out there, but the doctor just doesn’t know.

    #21735
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip @pedant

    OK, OK… you’ve all convinced me that Osgood probably ( 😉 ) isn’t Kate’s daughter (dammit – another good theory bites the dust!)

    @juniperfish

    I am a firm believer that the creation/ the text is greater than the creator

    I agree with that.  This whole site is based on it, haha!

    I also agree that the 2 timestreams exist. It’s right that the Dr had to do “penance” for at one time condemning Gallifrey’s children to death (in the name of peace and sanity). He had to do the penance, so that when he gets the chance to do it differently he will sieze it. But it also takes Clara (the human POV) as the catalyst – she is the one who insists there must be another solution (even though she doesn’t know what it is). The Doctor(s) at that point were only going for reconciliation with their previous self – sharing the responsibility with him (which is a step as up till them they had been blaming him for their suffering). The final solution gives redemption to the War Dr as well as hope for the children of Gallifrey (now frozen in a moment of time, hidden away somewhere, as opposed to burning in a hell.

    @geoffers

    Agree that the Daleks we’ve seen over the whole 50 years of the series are not seen linearly.  Some are clearly more advanced than others. And agree that it’s very likely the timetravelling ones could have been participating in the Time War. Ditto re Genesis.

    I don’t share some people’s need to see the Hoard of Travesties, the Skaro Degradations etc.  For all Dr Who can (now) do big SFX, it’s not a show that glories in showing battles, and visceral bits. What we need to see are its effects, to understand how far the War Dr has been pushed. This is the end game.   Gallifrey is a war zone, non participating peoples are as terrified of the TimeLords as they are of the Daleks, the Time Lords themselves are desperate – all their weapons (up to the Moment, which the Dr has just run off with) have been used up –  and not worked; the Doctor is a war-weary, battlescarred warrior, pushed so far by his experiences that the only solution seems to be to destroy everything, including the children.

    #21736
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @denvaldron @bluesqueakpip

    It’s not that there’s anything wrong with the French – far from it. It’s just a traditional tease, between former enemies (and occasional allies), like the Scots/English thing. Like Canada/USA?

    Ooops, this is how wars start 😉

    #21739
    geoffers @geoffers

    @denvaldron – i like your theory, and agree with you. my wider point, though, is that the daleks’ hatred of the time lords (and desire to conquer them/kill them all) may have begun with their very earliest defeats by the doctor. and with each subsequent defeat, their hatred and fear of him has grown exponentially, such that they now regard all of time lord society as their mortal enemy. not just the one time lord (especially him), but each and every time lord…

    i’ve only seen the AG shows (with a few earlier ones here and there), so my knowledge of specific dalek appearances is woeful, to be generous. but i can imagine that ‘genesis of the daleks’ might have been an escalating point in the history of the war, if not the beginning of it, perhaps? there is so little specific time war information that it is impossible to tell, without moffat (or the next show runner) addressing it outright…

    and i doubt we’ll ever get an actual book like the one in ‘journey to the centre of the tardis.’ (wouldn’t that be fabulous, though?!!) instead, i think all we’ll ever get is the odd mention and the casual hint, here and there, within the context of whatever current adventure the doctor is having. they seem to be content to build up the mythos of the show on an episode by episode basis, instead of establishing a huge backstory canon that might never make it to the screen…

    and i’m ok with that. one of the things i love about the show is that there’s so much new stuff to learn, from season to season, and it pretty much unfolds right in front of me, without me having to know much about the classic series. but i’ll get to those, eventually. bit by bit… 🙂

    #21740
    geoffers @geoffers

    i’ve just finished re-watching my tv recording of ‘tDotD,’ and i can happily report that i was completely mistaken about bits of extra footage. it’s all there, i just don’t seem to have remembered it all in the cinema. i’m guessing it’s because i was trying to absorb all that was going on upon the first couple of viewings, but my eyes just couldn’t stuff it all into my brain!

    also, my system is the furthest thing from hi-def, so the theater experience was wider & taller, and the sound was so much clearer. (plus, there’s that little thing about the extra dimension, too…)

    🙂

    #21741
    geoffers @geoffers

    “Still. I think Moffat needs to find some opportunities to play with the Doctor’s gender and race in a story where he can back out of it if everyone hates it.”

    @curvedspace – i agree. it would be so easy to do. there have been doctor-lite episodes, such as ‘blink.’ just come up with a similar idea, when capaldi is unavailable for regular filming, for whatever reason. and it wouldn’t take much to zap him into a woman, or a minority version of himself. he had his dna extracted, and made into a daughter at one point, and was aged into a little dobby creature by the master, so i don’t see why his dna couldn’t be manipulated to change him into a woman for an episode or two…

    although, i don’t think moffat has done as much of that? russell davies was responsible for all that (and turning him completely human, too, if i recall). matt has been copied as a ganger, and by the tesselecta, and turned into a mute red monster… but i don’t think moffat’s played much with his dna. he mostly has made the doctor into a detective, of sorts, investigating mysterious girls, for the most part (the one who waited, the one that’s impossible, the one that lives in reverse order to him and was kidnapped and turned into an assassin)… 🙂

    maybe he’ll realize that it’s ok to investigate what it’d be like for the doctor to actually BECOME a woman, for a while!

    #21742
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @pedant @juniperfish @bluesqueakpip

    Yay! A discussion!

    Reading your posts I realized it does not have to be black or white. It’s more of a gray-ish mixture.

    My take on things after reading your thoughts has been this: There has been once a different decision made by the Hurt Doctor. A decision to burn Gallifrey. However in this time-stream there would always be a 10 and 11 to interfere. The two streams “survive” but in going forward only the one where Gallifrey is in tact would go on. So everyone after the Hurt Doctor does not remember what really happened. Which leaves 10 still thinking Gallifrey was burning in the end of time.

    BUT

    I just can’t do that. Fixed time cannot be altered, or it would disintegrate. Which leaves the Doctor only always thinking he has done it.
    And even in the two stream theory: Who says we see the first version with 9? He would be left just as devastated if (and even in this theory it would always turn out that way) he thinks he remembers events that never took place.

    I am happier to figure out something timey-wimey for the end of time than to have to break a big no-no so it works out.

    Whichever way we choose, they create problems:

    1. Closed loop causality: How is the Doctor going to deal with the people on Gallifrey? Will the High Council end time itself as they planned before they got frozen in time? Will the Doctor receive some kind of punishment? Or will he get some honor for his “solution”? Will they ever show his family? How did 11 change his opinion so radical in comparison to 10 in the end of time? Was it all Clara?
    2. Two streams: The massive paradox you are creating with a rewritten fixed point. This version would change the personality of the Doctor a big deal the second time around. Would he make the same decisions? The same problem with the radical change in his behavior towards the TLs. Basically every problem the first version has + the massive paradox.

    I really don’t think this makes the story less impressive & deep @juniperfish.
    Re Gallifrey burns in end of time. The TLs know that they are about to burn, that Gallifrey will fall in some near future. Honestly how else can they still sit in this meeting and decide to end time? It has not yet burned in that point of time, although it is already locked. So how can the Gallifrey we see already burn (with them on it)?
    Since you do remember my earlier post I already had doubts at the end. I tried to pitch the idea that we observed the creation of a new Gallifrey.

    @pedant Love the idea that he (11) repeats lake Silencio.

     

    #21744
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @geoffers check out The Curse of Fatal Death, a special for Red Nose day 1999; while obv not canon, it’s a good insight into Moffat’s ideas on multiple Doctors, including the very definitely female Joanna Lumley!

    If the Doctor’s changing gender or race, it needs to be first and foremost story driven, not done for the gimmick-factor or as a response to outside pressures.  And only if the actor is the right. As someone else said upstream Moff’s done more to make it possible, in-story, than anyone else (refs to the Corsair, and in the recent NightotD)).

    #21746
    thommck @thommck

    @Shazzbot, @pedant, @scaryb, @juniperfish, @geoffers and everyone else
    RE: Time War
    I must admit, I was a little disappointed by what the last day of the time war looked like, and not just because we didn’t see any Daleks outside of their casing!

    I always interpreted it as a “non-violent” war, i.e. a timelord would alter time, then a Dalek would go back and alter time to counteract it, then a timelord would go back and change that time ad infinitum. Like they were all sitting above time (outside the pipes 😉 ) playing a game of chess with the universe.

    All we should have seen on screen was time in constant flux. I think it would’ve looked great on screen to see Gallifrey burning, then peaceful, switching between the two like a light switch. The timelord warriors (I don’t really think an army is necessary) could be seen flying through the flickering existences in their TARDISes.

    However, I’m willing to concede that what we so on screen was fairly minor in the whole Time War. Presuming the Timelords were operating in the safe haven of Gallifrey, it’s understandable they may have some foot soldiers guarding the defences. It wasn’t the last day of the war because it was the biggest battle but because the Daleks had broken in, they had won. That’s why the Doctor needed to use the Moment there and then.

    My remaining question is. Is Gallifrey locked in time, frozen and burning, or just in a separate bubble universe, rebuilding itself? Or both? The former would leave the Doctor still feeling very guilty, and give him some sense of urgency to set Gallifrey free.

    #21755
    geoffers @geoffers

    “How did 11 change his opinion so radical in comparison to 10 in the end of time? Was it all Clara?”

    @timeloop – basically, yes, i think clara is the reason, specifically in ‘tDotD.’ but also, his travels with amy, whom he met as a child. it is clearly established, after amy and rory are gone, that he spent a long, long time by himself, grieving for their loss. but, he also remembered how important his companions are, once he began investigating the mystery that became clara.

    hurt’s doctor didn’t have a companion (that we know of), nor did tennant’s (at the point he appears in the special, on his “vacation” before ‘tEoT’). having a companion present (and her insistence that there was another way) at the critical Moment moment (!) is what inspires smith’s doctor to change his own past (and, indeed, he says onscreen that he’d spent 400 years trying to think of a different solution to end the war, anyway)…

    i would have prevented the deaths of all those children, too, if clara had looked at me like that!

    😉

    #21760
    geoffers @geoffers

    @scaryb – i saw that a long time ago. i wouldn’t use it to glean insight into anything other than moffat’s sense of humour!

    the gender thing, i agree, it would have to be story-driven. one possible reason for moffat to change his gender would be so that he could write another conception-in-the-tardis story! the doctor becomes a woman, falls in love with her male companion (who happens to be a prince), gives birth to twins, dies due to complications, regenerates into the valeyard, begins to take over the universe… the twins, seperated for their protection, are hidden with relatives. the boy grows up on his uncle’s farm, the girl is a princess, who rebels against the empire…

    oh, wait… i’ve just written another comic episode!!

    but the race thing, i don’t think that would affect me, if he changed race. perhaps many other fans would be outraged, but as long as the actor is right (as you say)… and british! the doctor should always have an accent, from somewhere in the isles… 🙂

    #21762
    stevethewhistle @steve-thorp

    @geoffers

    but the race thing, i don’t think that would affect me, if he changed race. perhaps many other fans would be outraged, but as long as the actor is right (as you say)… and british! the doctor should always have an accent, from somewhere in the isles…

    This comment of yours made me think of Lenny Henry , and I found this on YouTube (although I would have liked to have heard him do it in his strong Dudley accent).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdfwXiVyE8I

    #21764
    DenValdron @denvaldron

    @geoffers    Your notion that the Doctors repeated encounters with Daleks may have triggered or created their hatred and fear of the Time Lords and fed into the Time War is quite interesting and worth thinking about.   Certainly one of the themes played with in the Matt Smith era is the ‘Batmanesque’ theory that the Doctor has become so large and such a force that he’s created his own enemies, or that the reaction to him has created adversarial forces.   So there’s something to it.

    On the other hand, these are Daleks we are talking about.  And literally from the beginning of their historical and chronological existence they’ve always been hateful, genocidal mutants each of which was riding around in an armored chassis.  That’s what Davros created them to be.   They hate and fear anything that’s not Dalek.  And in particular, their choice of who to war upon is contingent upon (1) proximity;  (2) vulnerability.   It was inevitable that when the Daleks became powerful enough, they’d go after the Time Lords.

    #21765
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @whohar

    [Under Gallery]

    KATE (on mobile phone): Malcolm? Malcolm, I need you to send me one of my father’s incident files. Codenamed Cromer. 70s or 80s depending on the dating protocol.

    z

    Find the full DOTD transcript here:

    http://www.chakoteya.net/doctorwho/34-1.htm

    #21766
    DenValdron @denvaldron

    ScaryB   There’s also Barbara Benedetti as the female Doctor, produced by Seattle International Pictures (really just Ryan Johnson and his friends), who had four half hour adventures.   The Benedetti Doctor, obviously is an unofficial and non-canon production, there’s absolutely no connection to the BBC.  The budget was only a few thousand dollars, and the quality varied from episode to episode.   But Benedetti does a good job, and they’re worth hunting down.

    As for Curse of Fatal Death, I have a very good bonkers theory to incorporate it into continuity.   It’s well worth hunting down on Youtube.

    #21769
    The War Doctor @the-war-doctor

    Hey guys,
    New here so be gentle! Not read the whole topic as of yet but read a fair bit, some great reading!

     

    I have my own little bonkers theory going at the minute, obviously Capaldi will be the new Doctor, but potentially when his time is up (Not wanting to wish his time away before its even begun) could we possibly see David Tennant return as the Doctor?

     

    Tom Baker said to Matt in the Curator scene that he may find himself revisiting a few faces in the future or something along them lines, and it’s no secret DT loved being the Doctor maybe a further hint could be his expressing ‘I don’t want to go’ yet again?

     

    #21770
    Elouise @elouise

    I was finally able to view the episode last night. When dodging spoilers 3 days are a very, very long time!

    Though not my favorite episode, it is definitely worth watching again to find out what little details I missed the first time.

    I’m so looking forward to see where it will be taken after this, there are so many interesting opportunities to explore.

    I have been trying to read all of your posts, unsuccessfully I admit, but I’ll get after it and hopefully be able to do some thinking on my own once my head starts functioning normally again 🙂

    #21771
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    z

    tweet! tweet!

    #21772
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    z

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