The Day of the Doctor

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    DenValdron @denvaldron

    Moffat is a very good writer and has written some brilliant episodes.   He’s also written not so brilliant ones.  If he writes crap, he can be called on it, just like everyone else.   The rules of storytelling are not like the rules of physics.  Its more like the rules of a bank.  You can break em, the trick is getting away with it.



    The rules of storytelling are not like the rules of physics.

    Blimey. Who’da thunk it. I refer to the question I asked earlier.

    Trouble is you keep using straw men. You still haven’t told us if you know what stasis* is. ‘Cos your entire snark about playing bridge vanishes once you actually listen to the dialogue.

    As Will McAvoy put it, snark is the idiot’s version of wit. So why not aspire to something higher?




    *Not to mention the correct spelling of Lethbridge-Stewart

    wolfweed @wolfweed
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    Theory:  Does anyone else think they are still in the Doctor’s Time Stream?  Clara was very familiar with the TARDIS, snapping her fingers for the door to close; she said the Doctor “always” talks about the Time War (since when?); and the Doctor was reading advanced quantum mechanics.  I propose they have not figured a way out of the Time Stream, and in going back into Tennant’s stream, telling him about Trenzalore, it enables the Doctor to find a solution.  Does that even make sense??

    Clara was also using language that I’ve heard River use, such as “I always know” and noticing the young age in Hurt’s eyes.  hmmm


    Anonymous @


    There’s no thematic connection, and no ‘in story’ connection between the Zygons and the Moment that is articulated.

    Just have to dispute that one. There is and pretty clearly too. Both Ten and Eleven, er, Eleven and Twelve that is, make the direct parallel between the situations. And this was why the Moment chose this scenario. It provided a clear-cut illustration of the dilemma that the Tenth Doctor was facing and showed him the effect that it has had on not one but two incarnations…


    Not sure if it makes sense or not. But I like it. Like it a lot. Since we’re almost certainly back at Trenzalore in four weeks’ time, I reckon there’s a very strong chance that the Doc and Clara haven’t found a way out of the time stream yet.

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    More videos than you can shake a Curator’s walking-stick at…

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @denvaldron – it’s always difficult arguing with someone who won’t admit that they’ve made an error of fact; it’s especially difficult when you continue to make errors that show you don’t know what you’re talking about. Could we just agree that – for reasons of storytelling – Queen Elizabeth felt that burying something under a pile of expensive masonry that would’ve been nicked by local builders would have been a bad plan? Instead she decided to pop the indestructible paintings in a guarded underground vault. Okay? Vaults are cool. 😉

    Of course, if you’re really upset, imagine the Doctor sent her a note telling her to carry on with the Zygon plan to store the paintings in the UnderGallery. Because if she hadn’t stored them in the UnderGallery, the Smith Doctor would never have gone there, the Hurt Doctor would never have met him, and billions of people would have died.

    I fail to understand your point about ‘the Zygons would have no way of knowing when to break out’. The advance party all broke out at the same time: probably a timing device. There may be more than three Zygons in stasis. What they did know was that they didn’t want to invade Elizabethan England, on account of the ‘total dump’ factor. Yes, there were problems with this plan. There are always potential problems with any invasion plan. You can land on a nice empty beach and discover that you’re trying to advance against newly transferred elite troops – it’s a problem. And if it happens to you, you’re probably going to die.

    Why do you find the premise: ‘Elizabethan England, from the Zygon point of view, is a complete dump that you couldn’t pay them to invade’ so very, very hard to understand? Their plan is actually very simple (in Zygon terms – as @jimthefish says, this is a nod to Classic Who invading aliens and their weird and wonderful plans). Take over the body of the Queen of England. Have ‘the Queen’ put the paintings in a safe place. Nobody but ‘the Queen’ knows what they really are – and they’re pretty indestructible – so they should be safe for the next few hundred years. Release an advance party on timer, and have them release the rest of the gang if they are successful in finding a foothold. Risks: approximately the same as any other invasion. Namely, they might die. Invasions are like that.

    You want the Doctor to do a ‘Dirty Harry’ style speech? Is the Doctor Harry Callahan? Is he the same kind of character as Harry Callahan? Does he have any characteristics whatsoever in common with Harry Callahan beyond being a) male, and b) a protagonist? Might the Doctor be, in fact, almost the exact opposite of the anti-hero Harry Callahan?

    There’s no thematic connection, and no ‘in story’ connection between the Zygons and the Moment that is articulated.

    Oh … dear. Dearie, dearie me. As the War Doctor says to the Moment:

    The War Doctor: She didn’t just show me any old future, she showed me exactly the future I need to see!
    Rose: Now you’re getting it.
    The Doctor: Eh? Who did?
    The War Doctor: Oh, Bad Wolf Girl, I could kiss you!

    That sounds fairly … articulated … to me. This is, of course, only my opinion. But a legitimate one. 🙂

    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @ardaraith I like the idea too (that they are still in the Doctor’s time stream).

    I also noticed on a re-watch that Clara is positioned as Barbara (working in a school with a young fellow male teacher coming to tell her about the Doctor). I don’t think Clara is River but she may still turn out to be the nanny – all those Mary Poppins parallels we (@HTPBDET was keen) noticed.

    What if there still turns out to be a baby in that cot after all? River and the Doctor’s child or grandchild and River entrusted her to Clara?

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @ardaraith – yes, I noticed the finger snapping. The TARDIS suddenly likes Clara enough to close her doors to a snap of her fingers? There’s also a vague implication that they’ve been together for quite some time; Clara’s a teacher now.

    Being a teacher at Coal Hill School does suggest that the Doctor can, perhaps, only get to places he’s already been to. He’s been to the moon. Ancient Mesopotamia – I think that was one of the Virgin Adventures. Future Mars – several visits. They might still be stuck in the time stream.

    Clara does also seem almost telepathic/empathic towards the Doctor. The War Doctor makes that joke about ‘if I could become half the man you are’. Is she someone his future self has made? Or simply a relation? She also seemed very attracted to that photo of Susan (which I admit might just be a reference back to 1963, just as we saw a female teacher (Clara) with a male teacher at Coal Hill school).

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    The Doctor’s ‘bigamy’ & sometimes poor treatment of his wives is a bad enough thing, without throwing ‘snogging his echo-(grand)child’ into the mix…….


    @bluesqueakpip @ardaraith

    She also seemed very attracted to that photo of Susan (which I admit might just be a reference back to 1963, just as we saw a female teacher (Clara) with a male teacher at Coal Hill school).

    And a male teacher in full Brylcreem style at that!

    I liked the photo touch – I’d go for the simple tribute, except that style of thing is usually reserved for the departed and Carol Ann Ford is still very much with us (and the fact that it wasn’t Sarah Jane may therefore suggest it could well be plot-significant. Surely, if plot did not demand otherwise, Lis Sladen would have been featured).

    Rather than still in the time stream (which to my mind would negate this episode) I wonder if the Doc is now simply able to locate Claricles at will.



    The Doctor’s ‘bigamy’ & sometimes poor treatment of his wives is a bad enough thing, without throwing ‘snogging his echo-(grand)child’ into the mix…….

    The Doctor never married anyone contemporaneous, so no bigamy, and  Clara snogged him, evidently with the primary intent of making him blush (she was a barmaid, remember!).

    DenValdron @denvaldron


    Blimey. Who’da thunk it. I refer to the question I asked earlier.

    Oh geez.  You mean about ‘stasis’.  I wasn’t going to answer it.  I didn’t see any point to answering it.  I didn’t see any point to catering to your passive aggressive trolling and sniping.   What was that going to get either of us?  I mean let’s face it, you were a dick the first time you addressed me, you were a dick the second time, and here  you are being a dick now.  I should engage in a conversation with you?  To what end?  Maybe in eight or fifteen posts you won’t be a dick?  I don’t think that’s going to happen.  What’s the point of engaging you?  So that you can keep on sniping?  Somehow, that doesn’t thrill me.  So that I can snipe back at  you?  That’s also unappealing to me.  Who is this supposed to entertain?  Nobody.   bluepipsqueek and I can disagree, but at least, despite frustration on her part, she’s civil about the conversation.  You can’t be bothered.  To what end?  To satisfy some childish need on your part to engage in some sort of vicarious confrontation?  I’m sorry, I just don’t care.  I don’t care what your personal issues are, really, I don’t.   If you want to have some flame war or internet fight, well, that’s terrific for you, you go out and do it.  But leave me out!   I know this seems harsh right now, but I don’t want to be trading insults with you through a dozen posts, I have no investment, I don’t want to get involved.  Your issues are your issues, not mine.   On three posts, you’ve pretty much shown yourself incapable of civility, I don’t see things getting better between us, and I don’t trust you to engage in a civil way.  So this is my single real response to you on this thread, there won’t be any more.  It’s just not worth it.

    Now, it’s possible that I’m wrong about you.   I’ve been wrong about people before, I’ll be wrong about people again.  No big deal.  You want to communicate, then you can email me privately.  That’s fine.  If I’m convinced I misjudged you, I’ll come back here and say so.  But if you want to flame away out here, then basically, you’ve shown me you’re exactly what I’ve judged you to be, at which point, as I’ve said:  As I’ve said,  I don’t care, and I won’t invest.

    Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013

    Hey @whisht thanks a lot of thought went into it and you are right it is very open ended we don’t know which future incarnation baker was so exactly wwho nose 😉

    Ticker @ticker

    I think the answer may lie in what was said between Matt and Tom in the scene. A future Doctor has chosen to be the curator and also chosen his appearance, I.e. Chosen to look like a previous past doctor, only older.

    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    @bluesqueakpip ‘They might still be stuck in the time stream’.

    I agree with this. If I understood it correctly, Clara went into the Doctor’s time stream to save him from the Great Intelligence’s mischief. Which makes me wonder, was the Hurt Doctor’s ‘no more’ moment (so to speak) somehow contrived by the GI, and Clara was doing what she does, which is to correct the GI’s malign influence. The GI influenced the Doctor to give up, which is something he never does (I vaguely remember a River Song quote to that effect, but can’t recall the episode – still, it’s obviously a Moffatian notion that one of the things that makes the Doctor who he is is that he never gives up). So might that mean that somehow the GI is still around, and was behind some of what we saw in this episode?

    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    And by the way, I loved the touch with the male teacher at Coal Hill School, which seems perfect symmetry for a re-boot under Capaldi. I rather suspect we may be seeing him again.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    Still basking in the warm glow left by the 50th (just as well as it’s -5 outside (and yes, I know this is “warm” for some of the colonials)). Rewatched on 2D iplayer, and still loved it, possibly even more. I thought it was a brilliant show for a 50th anniversary.

    It’s absolutely stuffed with references and resonances from throughout the series (as others have said too).

    Picked up this lot from the first minute

    The First’s opening titles.  And the music. It whisked me right back to 1963, to seeing them for the very first time. Seeing it on a wide screen, in 3D came very close to generating the same feelings – of hitting the chills-spot on the back of the neck, realising this was going to be something very different… and that I wanted to go on for the ride. (Didn’t realise back then it was going to be quite such a long ride!) Seriously, they could’ve stopped it there and I’d’ve been happy! That was genius.

    Then –

    I. Chesterton is the Chair of  Governors of Coal Hill School (Ian stayed in touch with his old school)

    W. Coburn is the headmaster (callout to Anthony Coburn who wrote An Unearthly Child (bit ironic when his son was threatening to sue the BBC recently).  Could the W be for C E Webber, who was also involved in the script, but uncredited?

    Clara (or a Claricle?) is a teacher there. Took me a little while to unpick what she wipes off the board but it’s this –

    “Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one.”

    It’s a quote from Roman emperor and philosopher Marcus Aurelius – but the bits that jump out are “No more” and “a good man” (ref to AGMGTW title?)

    Clara leaves the school at 5.16 (which means the class must have been dismissed about 5pm – ahem! but that’s being ungrateful!) (time of the orig broadcast)

    Skipping to the end –

    When all the Doctors are lined up (interesting that Hartnell is not in the line – suggesting he is indeed the original?) – what planet are they overlooking – is it Gallifrey?

    I thought it was lovely that the end credits listing for “The Doctor” names all of them, in order, from Smith back to Hartnell. Despite C Baker’s moaning, I think there was due reverence paid to ALL the Doctors. And as @pedant pointed out Delia Derbyshire finally gets a credit for the music.

    We got all got a bit sidetracked with the fact it was John Hurt playing the Doctor that I think a bit of the significance of it slipped past. Well it did for me. For the 50th anniversary show, Moffat sneaked in a whole new Doctor! (in fact 2, if you include bringing McGann properly into the fold)

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip @ardaraith

    Re still being in the timestream – and just when I’d finally theorised them out of it! (Took me 6 months that did!) May have to go back to sitting on the fence.

    But  it can still work without them still being in the decaying timestram. Having sorted out his dodgy past, and presumably finally got rid of the angst, Eleven now has one more thing to sort out – his own death at Trenzalore (otherwise there’s not a lot of dramatic trension left in the series, so long as he never goes back there).  So he has to go back.   He (probably) won’t leave again. We (think) we know that Capaldi takes over in the Xmas episode.  We think there will be a regeneration.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @chickenelly You saw it at the O2?? Me and @bluesqueakpip were there too. Shame we didn’t know beforehand.  We were the 2 in 3D glasses, fairly near the front, squeeing regularly throughout! 😀  Wasn’t it great to watch as a big communal experience with everyone applauding/laughing etc at the same time?

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    A little thought when the doctors were placing Gallifrey into its stasis pocket universe, and the Cappaldi doctor definitely stated thirteenth doctor here, I am sure I saw more than thirteen tardises zipping around. Now this may have just been an illusion as they were moving so fast that I just may have been seeing the same tardises more than once but could this be an indication that Moffat/bbc are preparing for a time when they have to break the 12 regeneration cannon. I am not suggesting that Cappaldi is going to do an Ecclestone and only do one season (god forbid) but with hurt being established as the 9th incarnation this will make Cappaldi the thirteenth doctor therefore in theory the last. On this note remember the thirteen rule has previously been broken with the Master so the doctor having more re generations is not totally unprecedented.

    The Krynoid Man @thekrynoidman

    I hope the male teacher is a companion, I always like the male companions (except for Adric and Rory). I’m guessing that if he is he might be a Harry Sullivan type character, good natured and heroic but a bit of a bumbler. I don’t know, something about him gave me that impression.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Thinking about genre (because, hey, I think about genre), it seems to me that the two plot strands (Zygons vs The Moment) are two different genres.

    The Zygon subplot is action-adventure – the standard ‘invading aliens’ plot. Because this is the 50th Anniversary Special of a show whose premise is ‘time travel’, the invasion hinges on a type of time travel.

    The subplot also provides the solution – placing something in stasis.

    The main plot (The Moment) uses the conceit of regeneration to follow a classic ‘morality play’ structure. The protagonist is met by personifications of his future self, his friends and his conscience. The aim is to have him make a good rather than an evil choice.

    Hmmm… I need to think about this some more, but work beckons. 🙁

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @craig @Shazzbot @jimthefish @phaseshift

    We seem to have a possible Zygon problem with @thekrynoidman – or maybe he’s a claricle – replicated over all of time and space. (Sorry,  just reporting multiple repeat posting – am assuming accidental)

    (Phaseshift and @wolfweed – this site was left in your supposedly capable hands for a night – and you broke it!!! 😉 )

    Pufferfish @pufferfish

    @bluesqueakpip – could you please find a way to do this writing thing for a living, if you don’t already? You’re taking some people to SCHOOL here. 😉

    There was a bit of wavey-hands right when Clara first arrives at the Tardis which seemed to refer to how they got out of the time stream, and it seemed to me the Doctor was still trying to figure it out. My own reckoning is that once he retrieved Clara, getting out wasn’t complicated but left repercussions yet to come.

    I’m down with @jimthefish and his Baker!Moment theory. Or that this aged Curator was the right sort to inspire the Third Doctor to choose the younger Curator’s appearance when becoming the Fourth Doctor.

    My problem with The Capaldi Inclusion (estate of Robert Ludlum, see me) is whether his presence in the locking of Gallifrey will mean that Eleven forgets his own role in it (don’t think it’s Capaldi’s voice affirming the presence of ‘Thirteen!’ BTW). Upthread, people are wondering whether Capaldi is the last doctor in Set One or the first one in Set Two – maybe, without being too navel-gazey, it will lead to a bunch of riffing on first and last/alpha and omega (uh-oh, Omega!) and all that entails in-Whoniverse.

    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    Let me make a guess:  The Moment/Rose/Bad Wolf is the woman in the shop who gave Clara the Doctor’s phone number. It was when looking at the History of the Time War that Clara first saw Rose as The Interface, recognised her and remarked: ‘so that’s who…’ If that’s right, then The Moment/Bad Wolf is the key agency that wants Clara to save the Doctor (or possibly to save Gallifrey). Why does The Moment want that? I wonder if the conscience of a weapon of mass destruction — a galaxy eater — is wholly benign? Maybe it is, but maybe the Bad Wolf is playing a long game? Perhaps The Moment is what causes silence to fall, and needs the Doctor to be at the right place at the right time to enable that to happen.

    I can’t shake off a feeling of parallels between The Moment and the Pandorica, or even the Tardis. It’s all about a madman with his boxes.



    Couple of things:

    – I strongly resent the implication that there is something passive about my aggression. I have been on the internet way to long to have anything other than zero tolerance of trolling and fuckwittery. I’m quite happy to let everybody else be the good cop;

    – Posting a tendencious view is one thing, but when you are so comprehensively schooled ((c) @pufferfish ) on your factual errors, your fallacies and your blindness to what actually happened on screen and still peddle the same line in the same tone at the same interminable length, that may not be trolling but it is the troll’s irritating younger brother;

    – To then resort to trying to teach the rules of writing…well, that was quite funny actually;

    The thing is this.

    There’s a physicist watching Ronnie O’Sullivan take a shot. He understands exactly how the energy from the moving cue will propel the cue ball, how its impact with the red will send it off in just the right direction to avoid the pink near the pocket and drop in, while the cue ball goes off in just the right direction at just the right pace to be lined up for the next shot.

    Then Ronnie hands him the cue. When he takes his shot he rips the felt, gets completely under the cue ball and launches it off the table into Big Mike the Heavy Metal Biker’s(1) pint of Old Wifebeater.

    Because knowing the physics of snooker isn’t the same as understanding snooker.

    That physicist is you;

    Steven Moffat is Ronnie O’Sullivan;

    I’ll let you work out who Mike the Biker is.

    Now. Do you know what stasis is, or don’t you?



    (1) Big Mike the Heavy Metal Biker is a fictional construct created for the purposes of metaphor, fable and narrative comedy. And resemblance to real Mike the Bikers, Big, Heavy Metal or otherwise, is purely coincidental.

    thommck @thommck

    Lot’s of good stuff to read here (@pedant, @timeloop, @wolfweed, @scaryb)

    OK, Deep breath, here are my somewhat organised ramblings. I’ve tried to mention the people who sparked of my thoughts. Sorry if I missed anyone.

    Numbering: @hudsey, thanks for the info direct from Moffatt regarding the numbers. I was already getting confused before this episode!
    I think the reason for this was to give the story somewhere new to go. Similar to the “Search for Gallifrey” plot. We don’t know how long it will take but it will definitely be another turning point to look forward to.
    So, I agree with @denvaldron that I will just be saying the actors name (e.g. Tennant Doctor) from no on.


    Gallifrey (@juniperfish, @bluesqueakpip): The whole planet is in the Bubble universe so it is still burning, also time can flow more slowly in a bubble/pocket universe as seen in other episodes (Hide/The Doctor’s Wife). I don’t think time was re-written. I believe that is how it always happened but the Timelords & Doctor think otherwise. It also explains why so many Daleks kept re-appearing after they were supposedly all destroyed! It also justifies the new-paradigm Daleks to seek some pretty major revenge on the Doctor (somehow it’s OK to wipe out the Daleks now, as long as you save the children!).
    Also, as seen in Hide, Psychic blood-lines can call out across the universes. This could imply some of the Doctor’s Gallifreyan family popping up in the future.

    Tom Baker: People have taken The Curator character as something too serious. It was just a nice bit of fan service. It never needs to be explained. Even if it does there are so many ways to spin it. Just because he looked like an older version of the Tom Baker Doctor we all know appearances can be deceiving. Could’ve been a Ganger/Zygon/Ghost/Auton/Echo/Psychic Projection/Parallel/hologram/Master/Timelord/insert_other_shape_shifter_being_here

    Zygons: I also think the Zygons have been taken a bit too seriously as well (@DenValdron). I did, at first, think the Zygon sub-plot was a bit generic but I can now see the bigger part it had to play in the story (partly thanks to @pedant). It also gave the more casual viewer or newcomer something familiar to hook into.

    From my understanding, Zygons are refugees from the future, their planet being destroyed during the time war. We don’t know how long they have been there for. One of their plans for survival, on discovery of the painting, is to send a branch of Zygons off to the future inside it. They can then steal a time-travel device and rescue all of their species and build a new home. The painting will be guarded by their version of QEI. The whole reason it wasn’t destroyed is because the Doctor’s went in too, hence why it was so well preserved by the real QEI

    Remember when the first episode of AG came back and we got the naff Autons! They were so lame but it reminded us that it is the Doctor/companion that is the focus and the monsters are the fun bit. When the Zygon morphed back into Kate it was truly a horrific image and made my youngest grip tight nto my hand.

    Sonic (@JimTheFish): The software is probably stored in the Cloud (i.e. the TARDIS), he just downloads the software into whatever sonic he has. We have even see him (Tennant) get a new one from the TARDIS itself so I imagine there is a strong link.

    Osgood (@CathAnnabel, @tennantmarsters2013): OK, this is a tricky one. It is clearly an odd name and is too similar to Oswin & Oswald to be just a coincidence. However, Oswin was a nick-name and Oswald is a surname. I got the impression Osgood was her first name but if it was a surname then there may be a distant link. For example, historically, when old family tribes spilt off they would often keep part of their name and add a new bit.
    The strange bit of that character is that she knew she wasn’t a Zygon (as she had the inhaler) and she shared this info with her counterpart. This has the potential to lead somewhere if we ever go back, or see the after effects, of the negotiation.
    Paintings: Just only realised now how literal Matt Smith’s spoiler “Paintings” was! LOL bit thick of me. Also, makes me laugh how much thought we put in to studying paintings in the Series 8 episodes 😀

    Clara (@ardaraith): She is still as equally mysterious and normal as ever! We are obviously made to think that time has moved on since Trenzalore. The finger clicking really stood out as a River link, and good call on the “eyes” line too. I also agree with @jimthefish (or is that jimthefiveish now? :P) that she lingered over the Susan photo.

    Timestream: Whether they are still in the timestream or not is unknown. I’d like to think not as it would make this whole episode even more complicated! In fact, didn’t the Doctor say, in NotD, that the whole thing was about to collapse? I’m presuming the Christmas special will deal with this, although probably not as much as we’d like. Is there a place to bonkers-theorise about this yet?

    That’s me done for now. I’m looking forward to a re-watch on TV and will try and convince my better-half to watch it with me (I think she’ll like how Hurt makes fun of Tennant & Smith).



    The strange bit of that character is that she knew she wasn’t a Zygon (as she had the inhaler) and she shared this info with her counterpart. This has the potential to lead somewhere if we ever go back, or see the after effects, of the negotiation.

    On reflection, I think this was a very clever bit of writing. The two “foot-soldiers” had worked out the truth, but silently conspired to let the peace process continue, rather than go running to  the boss (particularly significant given Moffat’s axiom that the bad guys do not know they are bad guys).

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @danmartinuk has posted his “official” recap of the episode for the Guardian, if anyone is interested.

    It’s here:

    DickieGarvey @dickiegarvey

    well i have been sutiable impressed with all the goings on, have only managed 1 watch through so far but am going for anothertonight.

    The TARDIS does seem very friendly with Clara considering previous annimosity so i have to assume that this is post time stream jumpage and means that they got “out” ok.

    John Hurt was a marvelous foil to Simth and Tennant, i do belive this was to help ease us into a differnt style of doctor but u never know.

    Trenzalore is going to be resolved in the Christmas special it seems YAY and a whole new overarching story to be told.

    wolfweed @wolfweed


    The Doctor’s being a widower many times over & leaving his wives (whilst alive) to pop off for a moment that last decades (if he ever returns) are bad enough things, without throwing ‘being snogged by his echo-(grand)child’ into the mix…….



    Timeloop @timeloop


    Okay I watched it. And I have to agree with you. Looks like the two stream facility idea I settled for earlier. Gallifrey looks so different. Definitely after the time lock (and supposedly burning). So maybe in the version we have seen this weekend the Timelords have not yet decided that they will end time itself.

    But that would create a paradox, don’t you think? I mean this moment is definitely fixed? And fixed points can’t be altered. River learned that the hard way.

    The 10th Doctor has had so much hatred for the Timelords. At the mention they might escape he is immediately willing to take a gun. There were supposed to be so much more baddies in the final day of Gallifrey…
    What changed his attitude?

    Another thing I noticed: In the end of time Gallifrey is soooo quiet. It is supposed to be heavily attacked but there is nothing but silence.

    Have you considered that Gallifrey is forming anew? That is the only other way it could look so burning red without anyone on it (and no battle(ships) going on/flying about). This form of escape from their pocket universe would exclude the paradox?

    @scaryb “”Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one.”

    It’s a quote from Roman emperor and philosopher Marcus Aurelius – but the bits that jump out are “No more” and “a good man” (ref to AGMGTW title?)”

    Also ‘good man’ is a direct link to the 11th Doctor (A good man goes to war)!

    @bluesqueakpip @ardaraith

    I do like the idea that they can only move within his own time stream and alter and visit things he did up to his first visit at Trenzalore.


    chickenelly @chickenelly


    You saw it at the O2?? Me and @bluesqueakpip were there too. Shame we didn’t know beforehand. We were the 2 in 3D glasses, fairly near the front, squeeing regularly throughout! 😀 Wasn’t it great to watch as a big communal experience with everyone applauding/laughing etc at the same time?

    Aaa, I was near the back with the good view (ie no cricked neck), mind you I did get there early to collect my ticket and glasses *and queued twice for the pleasure, damn you Cineworld!* I’ve never seen that cinema so busy before, I think they were taken by surprise by the number of people there.  It was showing on at least two screens – there was another queue upstairs from the look of the fezzes and scarves aplenty – plus it was on again twice that night.  You could still buy tickets for the later showings on the day, and it did occur to me that the cinema could have sold them to everyone twice over again if they’d publicised it better.

    It was a wonderful, communal experience and I noticed that all the biggest cheers came not for Matt but for the other Doctors.  My favourite part was the original 1963 opening (having just watched the real thing a couple of days before).  Tom Baker (speaking his own brand of Bakerese) was also a thrill.


    OsakaHatter @osakahatter

    Well, the only word I can think of for that weekend is ace.  Which would have made me cool and hip in the early 90’s.  Haven’t had chance to re-watch the episode yet, having only escaped the clutches of the South late last night and initial viewing was on a dodgy 14 inch in a Days Inn half way down the M1, so need to rewatch to collect my thoughts.

    On first viewing, I was amazed at how well it lived up to the hype, reverential but told it’s own story, moved the show forwards and for the second time in a week, made me regret a Doctor we’ll never get to see more episodes of – not sure I’d want to see any more of the Time War, but I’d happily pay to see John Hurt playing the Doctor some more. ‘Oh for Gods sake…’ loved it.  Twas ace.

    Sunday at the Excel, fab day out.  Sylvester McCoy was delightful (he’s my Doctor, I’m biased, but given it was there 6th panel in 3 days, he was still so full of beans) and seeing Matt Smith asking Jenna Colman to take pictures of him with the Moff in front of the crowd was touching – hit home that this was the last time he’d be doing anything like that as the current Doctor.  I’ve loved his run and he’s leaving me wanting more at any rate.

    Two amusing examples of ARSE in the crowd – a lad in a 6th Doctor jacket getting a proper sulk on (arms waving and everything) because he wasn’t picked during the costume contest in the special effects panel, and a girl asking Matt Smith “If you knew you were leaving after a half series and a couple of specials, why did you bother changing your costume?” [because he fancied a change essentially]

    The ninja toddler is now pointing any image of a TARDIS, a Dalek, the show’s logo or Matt Smith and shouting Doct-Oooh.  He was attacking me with toy Daleks this morning.  Mission accomplished – corrupted and he’s not yet two 😉

    wolfweed @wolfweed
    badwolfie @badwolfie

    I haven’t been able to read all the comments on this thread, but I am just wondering about something I haven’t seen any reviews or other articles touch on.

    I know that 10 and the War Doctor couldn’t remember the whole meeting together with 11, etc.  However, before their time streams cross, the War Doctor has The Moment and meets (essentially) Bad Wolf/Rose Tyler.  So, does that mean that when the War Doctor regenerates into 9, he decides to go looking for this Rose Tyler so that their meeting wasn’t chance at all?  To me, it makes sense that he would be able to remember everything that happens prior to her showing him a possible future, and therefore he would remember that The Moment’s interface called herself Rose Tyler and Bad Wolf.  Just wondering what others think.

    DenValdron @denvaldron

    @badwolfie   I think you are correct.   The War Doctor’s memory would fuzz, but he should still remember the interface.   It might explain why he decided to take Rose Tyler along with him, rather than just keep going it alone.

    geoffers @geoffers

    hello, all!

    i have just settled in for the night, having finally seen tDotD on the big screen… in glorious 3d! this is the first movie i’ve watched in 3d, and i’m so happy that i picked the right one for my first. it really worked so well, on all levels (once my eyes and brain adjusted to the glasses, which only took a few minutes)…

    i would love to write a novel about the experience, as some others here are able to do (!), but i really just want to say how much i loved it. i had seen it twice on bbc america on saturday, already, so it was definitely nice to sit back and bask in the visual spectacle of it all, without having to worry about missing dialogue, or trying to follow along. there were many instances of people cheering, clapping, laughing all together… and a couple of “aaarrrhhhs!” when hurt’s regeneration cut too soon (i had a similar reaction the first time, too)!

    billie piper and chris eccleston got the loudest cheers… at least til tom baker entered the room. i don’t think there were many others present who had already seen it, and i don’t know how the majority kept from being completely spoiled for two whole days!! lol… no way i could have made it that long. but having seen it, it was easier to forgive the excesses of the moment (!), as i knew what the drowned out dialogue was. (the only disturbance, really, was the guy next to me, who drank from his giant iced drink much too loudly, for what seemed like half an hour! but i was so enthralled with how beautiful the movie is, that i was much more forgiving of that than i normally would be…)

    i think the movie is a very well-balanced effort. there’s really so much stuffed into it, with a little for just about everyone… and a lot of some things, which is perfectly understandable, given the state of the franchise. i refer, of course, to matt, jenna, john hurt, billie, and david. i think the time war and the zygons took a backseat to the main story arc (the redemption of the war doctor), and deservedly so. it is a celebration of the doctor, his journey(s), and his companions, after all, and to linger on the villains, or the (possibly infinite) details of the time war, would have taken some of the sheer joy of the celebration completely out of it. at least, imho! 🙂

    the only two on screen things that bothered me? ‘the night of the doctor’ wasn’t shown before the film, and chris eccleston didn’t make a surprise appearance as i’d hoped, except in stock footage. 🙁 too bad, as he would have garnered much goodwill from the fanbase (and made everyone a bit more happy) for just those few seconds of his regeneration…

    the only thing i noticed that others haven’t mentioned (that i know of), is that the theater presentation has more footage than the bbc america broadcast!! it’s not a lot, just a few seconds here and there, in five or six places, but it made me think i was losing my mind when it first happened! (as in, how did i miss that?!) most noticeably, the sequences of the time war were padded a bit… more explosions, more people running about, more chaos… in the scenes before hurt blasts “no more” onto the wall. also, before matt yells “geronimo!” at the end of the gallifrey sequence, he says something like “here we go, gentlemen.” there are a few more examples that i can’t remember
    as well, but it really makes me wonder why the bbc america broadcast was truncated this way, as the total edits couldn’t have amounted to more than 4 to 5 minutes of screen time? did anyone else notice this?

    or… maybe i am losing my mind?! will have to re-watch the tv broadcast just to be sure… 😉

    anyway, long weekend, long night, much fun… bring on the christmas episode!! i’m so excited for peter capaldi’s (full) introduction, in a way that i wasn’t when david was leaving. i will be sad when matt is gone, but i have so much hope for the future of doctor who! matt’s doctor will die… but, long live the doctor!


    [oh, and p.s., i think osgood will turn out to be the sister of someone very important, perhaps a royal? or, she’ll be a descendant of one of capaldi’s other old characters…]

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @badwolfie and @denvaldron – agreed. I think Moffat just gave an explanation for why the Eccleston Doctor picked Rose – but he also gave an explanation why The Momen picked Bad Wolf as her appearance.

    Rose, as the Doctor says a few times, is the person who brings him back from the brink. The person who starts the healing process. So she makes sure he’s going to be healed; enough to later work out the ‘other way’  and change his mind.


    ScaryB @scaryb

    @badwolfie @denvaldron

    Was just about to post my agreement re choice of Rose as interface, but @bluesqueakpip got there first (and more eloquently than I would have put it)  😉

    ScaryB @scaryb

    Oh, and re Osgood – she’s the Brig’s grand-daughter* (been trying to find the ref since Sat).  When she gets the phone call (at 02.28) – she has a TARDIS engines ringtone (I want one too!) – she runs off to Kate, “Mum, Mum… ” (02.33)   The other clue is Kate’s automatic reminders – “inhaler!” (very parental)


    *Unless she’s adopted of course 😉

    Anonymous @

    @juniperfish – in this comment of yours, you attributed Clara’s phoenix necklace spot to me, but actually the credit goes to @lula in this post of hers.

    By the way Lula – where have you been?  Hope to see you around these parts soon, we miss your theories and analysis.  Did you manage to watch the 50th special at your local cinema?

    Anonymous @

    @scaryb – I’m pretty sure Osgood says “Ma’am, Ma’am”, not ‘mum’.  And I thought she said the Tardis ringtone was on Kate’s personal phone, and that the person calling was identified by the personalised ringtone (i.e., The Doctor).

    But I do need to watch again on iPlayer – I actually started watching the 50th again Sunday night at 7pm on BBC3 … and fell asleep!  (Too much rambling on Hampstead Heath with The Airedales, is my only excuse!)

    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip – also, has it already been mentioned about Rose-as-Bad-Wolf, that she has a very similar line to Idris in The Doctor’s Wife, about not being able to tell the difference between past and future?

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @Shazzbot She definitely says “Mum”  Plus Kate’s “inhaler!”  That’s long-practised parental phrasing; and the “uh” pronunciation is unmistakable. (trust me on this! (@Bluesqueakpip will tell you I’ve been going on about it since we left the cinema 🙂 ))


    Re similarities between the Moment and Idris – agree, that’s very clearly signposted. They are both highly developed (possibly the ultimate in) Time Lord tech.


    Oh, and welcome back Shazz – we’ve missed your virtual self (tho your RL substitute was great 😉 )

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @Shazzbot – you’re right tho – it’s Kate’s phone (which Osgood says when she answers). Don’t care whose it is – I want one!!



    No, she definitely says Marm (ma’am). I know a home counties accent when I hear it 😉


    very similar line to Idris in The Doctor’s Wife, about not being able to tell the difference between past and future?

    That’s Gallifreyan engineering for you!


    ScaryB @scaryb


    If it was just the pronunciation then I might concede ambiguity, but not when combined with “inhaler” – you don’t instruct an employee or an intern in that way. Kate knows without even thinking about it when Osgood needs an inhaler (which roughly coincides (in a meta-ref way) with fangasms in the audience, LOL). Plus she has Kate’s personal phone.

    (And subtitlers have been known to get it wrong! 😈 )

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