Deep Breath

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  • #30455
    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    @jimthefish @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan Sorry to have taken a while to get back on this, but it’s been a busy couple of days. I think, on reflection, that both your points are fair, and my earlier comment on the Doctor’s morality was a half-baked idea rather poorly expressed. Both ‘bad Doctor’ and ‘impeccable morality’ are certainly overstated. Mainly what I had in mind was River’s speech from A Good Man Goes to War where she (as I see it) chastises the Doctor in what struck me as rather an unfair manner. But I’m not sure I agree with all the examples of the Doctor’s dubious behaviour. Adelaide in The Waters of Mars, yes. And probably Six’s behaviour towards Peri. But otherwise I feel that the Doctor has pretty much always acted with the best intentions, at least. One example I can think of where the Doctor has acted in a way that to my eyes looks reprehensible is ‘Colonel Runaway’. I thought the Colonel, while on the ‘wrong’ side, at least acted in a rather noble manner. And the Doctor’s response was to try to humiliate him for the rest of his life.

    I guess at the end I’m still puzzled about the mistakes that the Doctor is going to correct. Is this just going to be about changing history?

    @bivium6 What is the Who and Philosophy book you mention. Is this a kind of ‘tao of Who’?

    #30456
    Serahni @serahni

    I’m going to jump in quickly in Clara’s defense because she’s actually a character I’ve enjoyed more than other companions in the reboot, including Rose. (Yes, I said it.)  Of course, that doesn’t mean I think she’s been necessarily ideally presented yet and I’m still hopeful that the stories to come will place the ones that have already been in better context.  I also don’t mind that people disagree!  The best thing about Who is the diversity; if you stick with it long enough, there’s usually something for everyone to enjoy.

    However, I think it is probably fair to point out that at the time ‘Deep Breath’ occurs, Clara’s just been through the wringer several times.  It’s all well and good to be critical of her for being ‘smug’ or ‘angsty’ or just plain unreasonable about her expectations of the new Doctor, but quite a lot happened all at once to Clara.  I think it’s easy to overlook the fact that, whilst the Doctor’s time on Trenzalore played out over 100s of years, Clara spent quite a lot of that time ‘in-transit’.  Zipping back and forth as he kept trying to eject her, has anyone actually tried to calculate just how much time actually passed for Clara during all of this?  For once, it was the companion who was able to bypass all the waiting and the living and so, whilst the Doctor waited out all those years, Clara experienced it all as a confusing rush.  One minute he was younger, then he was older.

    She also spent some time clinging to the side of the TARDIS.  That’s gotta mess you up a bit.

    So are we being too harsh to expect her not to have some qualms about an older-looking Doctor when a very ancient Doctor just about nearly convinced her that he was on the way out for good?  Forced to deal with the Doctor’s absolute certainty that he was at the end of his days, might she not panic that he’s regenerated into a creased face once again framed by grey hair?  There was such a huge emphasis on her judging him because he’s old that people seem inclined to side with Vastra and assume it has to do with romantic feelings but maybe it’s just a reaction to having seen him so terribly, terribly old and frail.  A regeneration is supposed to be a ‘new’ Doctor and, given how close to death he got, is it not at least possible that Clara is just still frightened that ‘old’ is going to amount to ‘weak’?  That ‘old’ is somehow going to determine the length of this regeneration?  Has she really had a significant opportunity to recover from the real and palpable fear that the Doctor was saying his final goodbyes?

    I’m not sure I think so.  What’s more, everyone, including Vastra, is inclined to believe that she’s only mourning the ‘boyfriend’ figure, treating her as if she’s just a shallow pretty-face with nothing left to bat her eyelashes at and yet this is a Doctor who doesn’t even properly remember who he is.  Perhaps she did fall for his younger mask and allowed it to lull her into a sense of false security but I honestly walked away from the episode feeling that what Clara was really reacting to was the Doctor’s own shaky sense of self.  Unpredictable, unstable, untrustworthy; doesn’t even remember her name to start with.  Certainly doesn’t seem to have recalled her significance or sacrifice.  She’s been tumbling through time and space with a man who was so decisive and sure of his place in the grand scheme of things that he was willing to meet his death if it meant protecting a township of innocent people, and now she’s been lumbered with someone who, from the first moment she laid eyes on him, couldn’t even recall how to fly the TARDIS.  He’s confused to the point of barely seeming to understand that he is The Doctor and yet we want to admonish her for merely missing a younger face.

    There have been many issues with Clara’s characterisation to-date, or lack-thereof as some might suggest.  She was a plot device for too long and really only started coming into her own once The Impossible Girl arc was solved but I’m not sure, in this instance, that she’s mourning or ‘freaking out’ in quite the way Vastra accused her of.  Somewhere between a whirlwind tour of the Doctor’s final stand and landing on Earth inside a dinosaur, she’s clearly had a very, very scary and uncertain time with a complete and utter stranger who doesn’t even know himself.  I’d be scared too.

    It didn’t seem to me that Clara rejected the 11th Doctor when he was old and frail.  She kept trying to get back to him, she wanted to stay with him, she argued with him when he wanted to go out alone.  She sat with him and read him a Christmas cracker.  She also got on considerably well with Hurt’s Doctor, and yet Vastra, and so many, want to suggest she only cares about him because he looks young and dishy.  I don’t agree.

    #30457
    Serahni @serahni

    Take a shot every time I say “Vastra” in that last post, you’ll be drunk by the end.  I blame a long day and penicillin!

    #30458
    Anonymous @

    @serahni  you’re ill too!  I hope you are feeling better. Heck, I have the flu and I cannot put together such a decisively argued paragraph as yours. I would agree with your points about Clara’s seeming affectation for flirty younger men -was she on the defensive? I think she was – and no wonder!

    The Doctor was sleeping after babbling about the meaning of a bedroom and ‘you all have a fault’, so naturally she’s a little freaked. Then Vastra, in her imperious voice, tells Jenny to fetch her veil as “there’s already a stranger here”.

    No wonder Clara says “have I done something wrong?” in just the right querulous tone and nervous fright. She’s out of town, out of Christmas (both kinds) and in the company of two woman she’s previously worked with who are now grilling her (and maybe Vastra really will grill her for dessert after she’s eaten the poisoner!).

    It was your last paragraph that convinced me  – the fact she loved her Doctor, read him a Christmas cracker, helped him up: frail though he was, she wanted to be with him.

    Vastra believed Clara had a morbid longing for the picturesque Doctor: the smart, well-groomed, sensible Doctor with the kind, impressive words and dashing figure. Here, he was in a nightie, with slippers, talking about ‘furious mirrors’ and jumping into the Thames.

    I would have had him committed. Good on Clara, she’s now The Patient Girl as well as The Impossible One.

    #30459
    Serahni @serahni

    @purofilion  Yes, bronchitis paid its annual visit!  I am feeling much better than I was, I hope you feel better soon!

    The Doctor certainly did sound ripe for a psychiatric ward there for a while!  🙂  I think the key to Clara’s reactions is not so much in what was blatantly put out there as an attempt to explain it but in analysing the nuances.  She wasn’t sure she wanted to stay with him because she didn’t know who he was anymore.  I don’t think that had anything to do with his grey hair and wrinkles.  What’s more, if her only inclination is towards good-looking versions of The Doctor, why did she virtually ignore David Tennant’s 10th but actively sought out Hurt’s?  She and 11 flirted like mad, in one of the little featurettes she mentioned having to not fall in love several times a day, but The Doctor himself was encouraging that.  Trying to isolate it as the only thing she cares about ignores too many other things she’s said and done, all with him in mind.

    More than that, I think you hit the nail on the head; she loves him.  Romantic love, platonic love, or somewhere in between, Clara loves the Doctor.  She retains the ability to love him when he’s old and frail, enough that she pleads for his life and tells an entire race of arrogant Timelords off for not having done it sooner.  Her reaction to Capaldi’s Doctor seems more a mixture of panic that he’s somehow not ‘new’ enough, (and therefore not about to expire), and a distraught sense of loss that the personality she loved had been replaced by a guy with several bats in his belfry.  Sounds a reasonable shock to me. 🙂

    #30460
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus  – I don’t think an explanation is needed for the dinosaur, even with thousands of witnesses.  Having witnesses without evidence usually becomes a legend.  (Lockness monster, Big Foot,…) 

    The dinosaur burned up in the river, so no evidence.

    #30461
    Serahni @serahni

    @barnable  Not to mention that the guy who lost his eyes displayed disbelief that the dinosaur was even real and he was seeing it with his own, albeit-doomed, eyes.  Without any remaining evidence, how long before the story would start to sound too fantastical to be true?

    #30462
    Pufferfish @pufferfish

    @serahni

    Very good point: the Doctor has aged 800 years on Trenzalore, accepted he was going to die there, and been given a new set of regenerations by the Timelords. He hasn’t been to Earth for nearly a millennium. From Clara’s POV, these events played out over the course of a disastrous Christmas lunch (and she still hasn’t been returned to finish that). Generally it’s the Doctor doing the whole ‘centuries in hours’ thing, not the companion.

    I like it when the companions have a backstory/family life outside the Tardis; it grounds and rounds them.

    Something else I want to just throw out there: why are all Moffat-era companions hung up on various Romans?

    #30463
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    On the matter of the historical accuracy. As far as I am concered yes it takes place in our world but it is a fictional world after all, so a degree of artistic licence can be taken with events. Anyway one way of explaining why no one “remembers”events is that all of them are paradoxes so cannot be retained in memory and “time”if you will removes the evidence or at least fudges the reason for death and destruction.
    Oh I do hope that makes sense. 🙂

    #30465
    Anonymous @

    @serahni – It would immediately be fantastical, because the dinosaur was a lot bigger than any known to exist. So the over exagerated size of the dinosaur turned out to be a good thing. 😆

    #30466
    Serahni @serahni

    @barnable – It might have been grotesquely over-sized, but it could have been worse.

     

    #30467
    Anonymous @

    @serahni – 😆 Where are those paradoxes @devilishrobby was talking about.

    #30468
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @arbutus @Purofilion

    Just on the Victorian era and The Paternoster Gang, I think I wrote this plea to have a series in a blog before you joined, and so I’ll give you a link if you are interested in the time and what was occurring @Purofilion.

    http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/sidrat/in-praise-of-the-paternoster-gang/

    @arbutus, one of the “example stories” I suggested made a play on the Dino literature of the time (Conan Doyle’s Lost World, Journey to the Centre of the Earth) as a Silurian story. I like the thought that Conan Doyle, having struck a friendship with Vashtra in basing his detective on her, would accompany her on a search for a lost tribe of hers.

    The Dinosaur really doesn’t bother me. After the Ripper incident, and the behaviour of the papers, the British Government introduced the first variant of “D” Notices to prevent reporting on certain issues. The world was very different (but somehow very similar) to our days. If it wasn’t reported, was it history? It may have filtered into literature and pop culture though. What else inspired Godzilla? 🙂

    #30469
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @serahni Great post (#30456)

    And I love your suggestion the dinosaur could have been a purple Barney – now that would have been really scary 😆

    Hope you feel better soon

    #30470
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Re the dinosaur being too big – the fossil record is very far from complete, maybe we just haven’t found those bigger bones yet. (And as @phaseshift suggests there is a “giant monsters” thread running thro fiction,  who knows where that came from).

    But seriously – if you accept Silurians under the earth for millions of years, Silence (under the earth for millions of years), cannabilising robots, Jagaroth (likewise), life on earth kickstarted by cyber-ship crash/Jagaroth, the entire universe rebooted thro Amy’s memories etc etc – I really don’t see that a single giant dinosaur is much of a problem!

    🙂

     

    #30471
    Anonymous @

    @phaseshift that would be great -I’d think a series would be artful and hilarious. The tone is just ripe for one in that era.

    @devilishrobby paradoxes now? Where? I’ve missed something!

    @serahni and @barnable yes indeed, the bigger the better and the bested the nuttier -therefore, it filters thru back channels, becomes legendary: and yes, the D Notices (my brother, knowledgeable about such things, mentioned this the other night. After he woke from the episode: at which point I was stuffily ignoring him)!

    The Doctor (11) with Clara was this delighted, delightful, sometimes nonchalant man, beaming down at her and kissing people ‘the European way’. After witnessing the change of the Doctor, she finds herself in a depressing, wildly alien place, with strange customs (devouring people in the larder -and that’s the good guys), peoples and unpredictable waiters (the good guys) offering her a mop bucket to drink from. What is a woman to do!!!!

    She’s then interviewed by these people (she thought were friends) while her face burns under their cool, collective gaze.

    Meanwhile, Strax is demanding she ‘man up’. I think Clara feels dejected, nauseous and inadequate. Later, in the larder (the other one) she can’t even hold her breath and staggers about. No wonder she says “nope, can’t do it”.

    I’d leave the buggers to it, myself.

    Kindest, purodiddles.

     

    #30472
    Serahni @serahni

    @purofilion  Not to mention she was in Victorian England; she could have found a cloud to sulk on for a while to recover from the loss of a beloved friend but she didn’t.

     

     

    That’s right, Doctor; I went there!  😀

    #30473
    wolfweed @wolfweed
    #30474
    Anonymous @

    @serahni a good point. Sulk she did not. She went along and tried…and tried…and you get the picture. That .gif file stuff is amazing (can’t do it myself of course -I may as well be in Victorian England)

    @phaseshift  – read that great blog and this prompted me to go thru my odd book collection on this period, & the 100 years or so before it. The happy rich were wandering amid daffodils whilst visiting Poppy houses….I think they saw more than just Dino.

    #30476
    Serahni @serahni

    So new bonkers prediction fodder:

    “Run, you clever boy, and remember.”

    Currently trying to see what this reshuffles into.  So far, from a first try, I’ve got “Enemy”, “Murder”, “Reborn”, “Vale” with left-over letters u o c b y.  I suppose I could have “C.O.” for Clara Oswald.  Which would leave me with…”Buy”.  >.>

    It suddenly occurred to me that it would be just like Moffat for us to think this little repeated warning from Clara has been resolved when, really, it hasn’t at all.

    #30477
    Serahni @serahni

    Another attempt gets me “Cyberman” “Murder” “Everyone” with b o u l leftover.

    I am going to go into anagram paranoia meltdown here.

     

    #30478
    ABXY @abxy

    @serahni Inspired by your idea of anagramming the letters of Clara’s famous phrase, but with none of your magnificent determination, I put the phrase into an online anagram solver thing. I’m now going to trawl through the words in search of clues ^_^

    Also, ‘cyberman murder everyone’? I’m scared! O_o

    #30479
    Pufferfish @pufferfish

    The best one of those I’ve ever come up with is Amelia Pond —-> Oedipal Man.

    #30480
    janetteB @janetteb

    @serahni Excellent, spirited defence of Clara and thank you for the raising the cracker scene. At Christmas we saw Clara at her best. Now she is not so much “a long way from home” but far worse, “a long time from home” and her only chance of ever returning to her own time is The Doctor and she no longer knows what to expect of him. That would be unnerving for anyone. I think Clara is shaping up to be a very good companion. In so many ways this episode was as much about her as it was about the Doctor. (And when it comes to being superficial and judging people by their looks surely the Doctor is the prime culprit. Just look at all those former companions.)

    It is now a long way back but @wolfweed thanks for putting up the cinema preview. Dear Strax..

    I think you all have adequately explained away the historical anomaly of the giant dinosaur which left no discernable trace when it combusted. (Unlike my favourite bugbear, the Giant Stompy Robot). Moffat did say that there is only one significant difference between the world of Dr Who and our own, the former has no TV series called Dr Who in it. RTD stories played fast and loose with history. Moffat has tried to put that genie back in the bottle. The gaint dinosaur may well be a “plot point” even though he initially thought of it because it was amusing and even if he doesn’t have a narrative use for it now, one may well burst upon his astonished brain in the future.

    @scaryb, and Serahni hope you are both well again soon.

    cheers

    Janette

    #30481
    Serahni @serahni

    @abxy  Well, nobody said I wasn’t cheating a bit.  >.>  *lol*  I used an online generator to help and then got fed-up with it giving me silly things.  Plus, it doesn’t come up with “Cyberman”, can you believe it!

    The more I think about it, the more I wonder if we’ve really found out what the whole phrase means.  Run and remember?  I mean, it could be passed off as her mantra, since her entire clarically-existence became that of making sure he stays out of trouble, but I’m too paranoid about Moffat’s massive arcs to trust anything to be actually over!

     

    #30482
    ABXY @abxy

    @serahni :O what generator doesn’t come up with Cyberman! Also, I’m sure Mr Moffat’s got something up his sleeve waiting to kill is all with D:

    I’ve found ‘redeemer’ in there, but ‘bacon’ is too :s

    #30483

    (Unlike my favourite bugbear, the Giant Stompy Robot)

    That was (obliquely) explained by the crack (in Victory of the Daleks, I think).

    Remember, this is Moffat – you may get one line of dialogue to deal with a loose thread, but you won’t get a load of exposition to expalin every offence to the fanboys 😉 ). See also when Amy got gangerised.

    #30484
    janetteB @janetteb

    @pedant I certainly did not miss Moffat explaining away that “bugbear” along with all the other historical anomalies of the RTD era. I certainly smiled at that line and I suspect the Moffat does want the series to fit, mostly, within actual history without putting all the script writers in straight jackets.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #30485
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @thommck
    In 1842 James Orchard Halliwell published a collected version as;

    Humpty Dumpty lay in a beck.
    With all his sinews around his neck;
    Forty Doctors and forty wrights
    Couldn’t put Humpty Dumpty to rights!
    z

     

    The Dr Who Universe is set in a parallel dimension to our own (That’s why we don’t remember a giant dinosaur…).

    Even in the comics…
    z

    #30486
    bivium6 @bivium6

    @FiveFaces

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Doctor-Who-Philosophy-Popular-Culture/dp/0812696883

    First section is about idenity, is the Doctor the same man each regeneration, how do you define idenity.  I love the example, if you are whipped as a boy, become a soldier than retire a general.  Now the soldier remembers being whipped and the general remembers being a soldier but the general doesn’t remember beingg whipped, are they the same person?

    Then you have time travel, favorite is reversed causation and closed causal chains.

    Really fun, the morality of Doctor Who.  Next it kind of an existentail look at the world.  Chapter on horror and beauty.  Last a section on culture.

    @purofilion

    I really like that.  Clara went from the normal world to the Doctor’s world, than she went to a new Doctor’s world.  A lot to get use to in a short peroid of time.  She was one of the few companions who didn’t jump feet first into the Tardis.  And she’s being treated like crap by everyone.

    #30487
    janetteB @janetteb

    Straying way offff topic now but the story I have heard is that Humpty Dumpty was a short, fat canon which fell off a wall, hence the line, “All the kings horses and all the king’s men…”

    Back to something I was, or may have commented on last night re’ Missy. I am waving towards the view that she is an entirely new villian as befitting the “renewal” of the series in the wake of the 50th. (Apologies if I have already said this.) It is time we had a new “big bad”.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #30488
    bivium6 @bivium6

    @Silverman

    I completely agree with you that the show needs to follow its own rules. Smith going back on his own timeline really bugged me.

    @Barnable

    I’m with you, Lockness monster, Big Foot. I think it was just a red herring for the first episode. Writing for this world, not a plot point in Doctor Who.

    @Pufferfish

    I was wondering about the Roman thing too, the Doctor said the droid had parts from the Roman era too.

    @janetteB

    Couldn’t agree more we need a new big bad.  I’m getting way too attached to my Gods of Ragnorak, Eternals/Guardians of Time theory. Never a good idea. I just love when they combine old and new Who. But without making it stale.

    #30489
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    As to the size of the dinosaur, it’s probably a homage to Gorgo…
    z
    Or chewits!

    #30493
    Rob @rob

    Ok where to begin…….

    Bank Holiday Weekend was a little bit of time travelling to the 15th c at Herstmonceux which on Monday was the wettest place in GB especially when camping.

    Tuesday was unpacking drying tentage and de-rusting armour and eventually watching Dr Who yippee.

    I felt a little underwhelmed and haven’t had a chance to re-watch as I’m up on site struggling with signal and mud.

    I’ve read the Gruniard review and mused a while and today whilst sitting in my little box (sadly not the bluest blue) then I’ve read with interest all the postings here and drunk coffee (gallons of it) so apologies for what comes next (also apologies for what someone said earlier doing what we don’t do a stream of timeywimey interconnected separate thoughts).

    Old Mary Poppins aka Big Bad (Wolf) Bad Wolf Boyfriend Heaven God Goddess Jenny Christmas Spaceship Tasha Lem River TMF

    @whisht Roman bits in rubbish robots and a Roman face Up Pompeii ohh er missus 😉

    Clara is The Claricle surely having dived into the complete timestream of the Doctor???? Or was she split assunder inside the Doctor’s vortex, if so how did he find her? So Clara is yet another Claricle and her mother is The Original Clara and Old Mary Poppins

    Old Mary Poppins set up as the Big Bad for the story arc, just as Bad Wolf was, both turn out to be good and a mixture of ordinary and TARDIS hence Boyfriend

    Heaven is modernly thought of as a place for the good souls to go, not sure harvesting bodywork is deemed that way but the Doctor has saved souls to the ethereal plane before River to CAL which maybe TMF and River/Tasha perhaps one coffee too many

    Anyway on reflection bloody fantastic start to the series

    Must go coffee needed 😀

    #30494
    Rob @rob

    Hmm is that a tablet problem my post seems more garbled than even I thought……..

    #30497
    Anonymous @

    @rob – I’ve fixed your post.

    At the risk of having a mug of coffee thrown at me (I’m sure you’d never be that wasteful with coffee 😉 ), can I suggest laying off the caffine for a while? 😀

    #30498
    Rob @rob

    @fatmaninabox

    Thank you 😀

    Ok ProPlus then hehehe

    #30499
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    bloody hell I was waiting till I re-watched it to come back here, I forgot how busy these threads are during the run (It’s been a long time) fantastic!

    still on page one, @littlemess, yes I thought so too, and again on re-watching. And I also like the new title sequence. I liked the music a lot more the second time around, maybe it’s quite right that it is both familiar and unfamiliar.

    The main thing I’m taking away from this opener is about regeneration. He recognises his new face, it’s as if he’s trying to tell himself something- not about Clara, at least I don’t think so. I think the character from Pompeii is relevant. And then what Vastra said. He chose a young face to impress ‘you’- probably not just Clara, but in a fashion, the last few companions, and in a fashion, the audience. Now he trusts ‘you’ and has let his guard down- see above- but interestingly, this is not a conscious decision. It’s as though Vastra is talking about ‘the’ doctor, the continuity. The man in the bedshirt ranting in an ally is the current personality, but not the ‘he’ Vastra is talking about.

    #30500
    catch262 @catch262

    In regaurds to the the scenewhere The Doctor was seemingly confused and he was calling Clara, Handles.  He may have been saying the truth if Handles was yet another incarnation of the splintered Clara that shows up throughout his whole timeline.   Anyone else have that thought?

    #30501
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @serahni  @purofilion (Get well soon, both of you!) Very eloquently stated. What I think is being forgotten is that the Doctor doesn’t just change his face, he changes his entire persona as well. We’ve talked before about what that might mean, and wondered what has to remain unchanged for the Doctor to really be the Doctor. The broom metaphor might be applied not just to body parts, but other things as well. And yes, puro, I agree that every companion who has suffered through a regeneration had to be very patient indeed!

    #30502
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @barnable @serahni

    Yes, that was basically what I was suggesting with the Roswell comparison, that you would end up with something that most dismiss as urban myth. And good point Serahni, I hadn’t though of the eye guy in that connection. But now that I think of it, Moffat was probably establishing just that idea with the line about the dinosaur not looking real. I should say that, personally, the dinosaur didn’t bother me, in either non existence or extra extra large size. I viewed it as a cool opening and a useful metaphor.

    #30503
    bivium6 @bivium6

    @catch262

    He may have been saying the truth if Handles was yet another incarnation of the splintered Clara that shows up throughout his whole timeline. Anyone else have that thought?

    That would be awesome.  I hope we see more Clara echos.  If Clara got to meet one of her echos, so many possibilites.

     

    #30504
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    thinking of missy’s ‘heaven’, and the papal mainframe- what happened to the consciousness of the little girl in SITL so concerned with ‘saving’ people?

    #30505
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @phaseshift  Love the Conan Doyle/Vastra idea. One then wonders if Jules Verne might not have encountered her somewhere as well. And I wasn’t aware of D-notices, but it makes complete sense that (again like Roswell) the government would have suppressed a story like this.

    #30506
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @Arbutus- yeah, I should have worked that out re: phonecall. Red face.

    byw, glad you managed to watch it in one go. I started watching on laptop, switched to TV when the mother in law went to bed, missed a few minutes then a friend popped in, saw what I was watching and very kindly sat in silence till it ended. I like that my friends have realistic expectation about me…

    #30508
    bivium6 @bivium6

    @Miapatrick

    Still there I’d imagine.

    I’m loving this Clara echoes idea.  They may be echoes but I’m sure they think of themselves are real people; born, live, and die.  It’s idenity, just like the Doctor has to deal with when he meets his past sevels.  Same face different memories vs Different face same memories.

    Moffat likes to revist popular concepts, like the Weeping Angels.  The Girl Who Waited was very well recieved.  What happens if Clara and a Clara echo face a life or death for one or the other.

    #30509
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @pufferfish   I hadn’t connected the characters who have been “hung up on various Romans” (hee hee); I guess as @rob says, the Doctor is one of them now.

    @barnable    Where are those paradoxes?   There were no ducks in the duck pond. 😳

    @serahni  She could have found a cloud to sulk on for a while to recover from the loss of a beloved friend but she didn’t.   Nice.

    @janetteb   “A short, fat canon”  I’m trying to find a way to make a DW-fandom joke here, and can’t quite get it. Strax is canon; would he do?

    I agree btw with the idea that Missy is someone new!

    @rob   Welcome back to civilization (?)  This: “Heaven is modernly thought of as a place for the good souls to go, not sure harvesting bodywork is deemed that way” really made me laugh. Obviously Missy’s heaven doesn’t work the same way as other heavens!

    #30510
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus – Paradoxes in regards to doing something  about Barny as the dinosaur.  And while I’m at it, that chewit thing that @wolfweed posted. 😆 😆 😆

    #30511
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @miapatrick

    Glad you got through it as well. It is nice to have friends who understand us, isn’t it? Maybe the BBC needs to be asked nicely not to broadcast important episodes on a weekend in summer when people are required to travel, camp, visit family, etc.

    It’s as though Vastra is talking about ‘the’ doctor, the continuity. The man in the bedshirt ranting in an ally is the current personality, but not the ‘he’ Vastra is talking about.  I really like this idea.

    I have been inclined right along to connect Missy and her heaven with SitL. It has the same very bright, unreal quality as the digital heaven in that story, and I’m inclined to believe that Humpty was not physically brought there. (Although, being a cyborg, it’s possible that he was!)

    #30512
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @barnable    No, no, it was a pun. An embarrassingly old one. My mother’s family is Ukrainian, and here in western Canada, there is an old joke (as many Ukrainians live in northern Alberta). What is the definition of a paradox? Two ducks flying over Edmonton. You have to imagine the phrase “pair of ducks” spoken in a Ukrainian accent– I always hear my grandfather’s! Sorry, sorry, I knew it was a bad joke, that’s why I blushed.     😳    again!

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