Deep Breath

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    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    @steve-thorp @scaryb – re the Doc’s scribbled equations, wouldn’t you know it, someone has analysed them all:

    Doesn’t sound as though they will contribute very much to our bonkerising, but just in case anyone is interested!

    On another point – the dinosaur.  Do we know for sure that Vastra is talking about this planet’s pre-historic creatures?


    Anonymous @

    @devilishrobby what part of the dinosaur did Humpty (copyright to the person who mentioned that name first!) co-opt? Pineal gland? So, if a psychic connection, how was the dinosaur used by the Droids? I presume it was corporeal, after all, they burned the poor Lady. Unless @barnable means the Dinosaur became Missy in Paradise. Yet, I think paradise is a real place in this episode as well as a Heaven-type. To some people it would be one and the same!

    @flirtingdinosaur The reason River said to Ten “you’re younger, so young” was because to her, the Smith Doctor, whilst a young man had incredibly old eyes -to her and to us, as an actor and the character, he demonstrated the 900 year old man perfectly: so yes, 11 is the older face she’s used to. This and other reasons gives me the impression that River’s story is closed. And that’s good -time for something new entirely.

    Anonymous @

    @cathannabel – thanks for sciency wiency link 🙂

    I tried reading it but my head ‘sploded at the first equation!

    Pufferfish @pufferfish

    Hello, everyone, at last.

    I’m not sure about another Flesh and Stone scene, because when Clara is arguing/negotiating with the lead droid, there are several shots where we can see the other droid who later proves to be the Doctor in disguise, and Clara is never out of his line of sight. You can see his side-eye, whereas the dormant droids are facing forward, unseeing. So he never *quite* abandons her in the ‘larder’. It’s pretty obvious on re-watch.

    I’m pretty sure Missy is the Matrix gone doolally, not a gender-swap Master. Don’t think the production would go for turning an antagonist character female, because that’s more problematic to Tumblr feminism than swapping genders on a ‘good’ character.

    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    @fatmaninabox – I didn’t even try, years of working with physicists and mathematicians have taught me to nod sagely and say nowt.  I should have put a health warning on the link  though – ‘may cause spontaneous cerebral combustion’ …

    thommck @thommck

    Who’d have thought 5 mins of a Dinosaur could lead to so much bonkers theorising (well I suppose we would!).

    @silverman @purofillion Regarding the Dino’s size, do we know it was an earth dinosaur (@Cath Annabel)? For all we know, Dinosaurs could’ve been able to time travel or there is some Planet of the Dinosaurs we are yet to visit. It was definitely some special dinosaur to carry itself through the time vortex, just look what eventually happened to Captain Jack’s head in terms of size.

    As to the “Wouldn’t it be in history books?” question. We see that it is 3 o’clock in the afternoon when the Dinosaur appears. It then spontaneously combusts at nightfall. So, despite a few eyewitness accounts, it was kind of a blink and you’ll miss it event. Especially in those days when they didn’t have the benefit of smartphones and twitter to spread the news!

    @devilishrobby I believe the dinosaur was real due to the fact that Humpty harvested organic matter from it

    @barnable Your Dinosaur = Missy post made me laugh, it’s just crazy enough that it is actually plausible! Of course, I would refer to the fact that the dino is now a pile of ash filtering through the river bed of the Thames.

    Away from the dinosaur (we know Moffatt likes to do stuff just for the pure visual fun of it (and why not?))

    @deluxescarf A different Doctor is certainly a possibility. I wonder if Eleven’s Ganger regenerated as well?

    @janetteb the story featuring the Clockwork Droids is a 9th Doctor novel, The Clockwork Man,


    Finally, a word of warning…

    I was Googling images of Humpty Dumpty in hopes of finding one impaled on a tower to illustrate my earlier post. The results proved to be more terrifying and nightmare inducing than any Doctor Who story! Don’t do it people!

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Ah just because it’s a psychic manestification doesn’t necessarily mean it doesn’t have physicality therefore it may have organic parts. A good psychic manestification would be able to stand upto physical examination lol. But as I said initially it was a fleeting thought not necessarily thought entirely through but I thought I’d put it out there to see what others might do with it.
    For some reason I’m not liking Missy as a version of the Master not for any specific reason other than it just doesn’t feel right and from what we’ve seen from SM yes he goes for convoluted story arcs and he likes twisting our brains into pretzels but I suspect it will end up being something even more timeywimmy and twisted.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    Regarding Missy as River, I would say (leaving aside my view that, dramatically, River’s goodbye in NotD was really goodbye) that River would never call the Doctor “my boyfriend”. He was her husband.

    I’m also in agreement with those who feel that Missy as Master is just too easy. Certainly we are supposed to think that, but I would be disappointed to have her identity so obviously telegraphed if it were true!

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @deluxescarf @purofilion

    I believe that what we are given in the first moments of that rescue scene is our first look at Twelve in all his glory. It’s not unusual in a post-regeneration story for there to be a defining moment when the Doctor has clearly recovered and is back in the game. Ten and Eleven both had these, Ten when he emerged from his TARDIS, fully recovered and battle-ready, and Eleven after he had finally figured out what he wanted to eat, and suddenly became serious with Amelia: “That must be a hell of scary crack in your wall.” (A parallel has suddenly occurred to me with my teenage son, who can be completely dysfunctional until he has found the right snack!)

    The Doctor definitely left Clara there on purpose. He suddenly decided in the middle of opening that door that it would be better to leave her there as a trap for the cyborgs. But oh, the cold look in his eyes. And then, her absolutely heroic leap of faith that the Doctor will “have her back”. “Hello, hello, rubbish robots from the dawn of time!” The new Doctor in hero mode. (By the way, it occurred to me that the Doctor’s willingness to wear a mask made of human skin is pretty alien!)

    I was interested to read puro’s thoughts about trust and belief. I was thinking something similar. Clara’s whole experience with the Doctor up to now is completely different from that of any other companion (that I can think of). He came looking for her. He begged her to come with him. She must have felt more in control of that relationship than any companion ever, even Rose. And now, suddenly, she is dealing with exactly what every other companion has had to accept: that he is unpredictable, that he is won’t always tell her exactly what he is doing or thinking, that he will have his own agenda. She has to trust him now. I don’t think her relationship with Eleven was based on trust. Obviously, she did trust him, but she never really had to make that leap of faith that most companions have had to make regarding the Doctor. Possibly, as Vastra suggests and the Doctor himself later admits, because he was playing the “boyfriend” role from the very first, and Clara never really got to see the alien.

    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    Some fantastic food for thought here, and I admit I’m having a hard time keeping up. But I wanted to add one more theory about Missy’s identity to the mix, with apologies if this has already been suggested.

    Assuming that Missy is who has brought Clara and the Doctor together, perhaps she is the Celestial Toymaker, an ‘egomaniacal, needy game-player’ if ever there was one.

    Both the Toymaker and the Great Intelligence are — in various Who lore of (questionable?) canonicity — eternal beings from a universe before this one. So, it is perhaps fitting that Clara was the Toymaker’s counter to the Intelligence’s plan to enter the Doctor’s timestream and undo all his works. Only another eternal could have seen the Intelligence coming, so to speak, and set the Doctor up with a ready-made solution.

    Clara, as I understand it, was the name of one of the Toymaker’s clowns in the First Doctor adventure.

    The Toymaker’s original plan was to beat the Doctor and so win his personality to keep him for ever as one of his toys. Perhaps this might explain Missy’s line that she will likes this Doctor’s accent and will ‘keep it’.

    bivium6 @bivium6

    Seeing the Toymaker again would be fun @FiveFaces

    The Gods of Ragnarok would be cool too.  Like the Toymaker, came before.  Old Ones from the time, Dark Times, before the universe. The Doctor says he’s been fighting them.

    The Land of Fiction with Clockwork Soldiers (Mind Robber Second Doctor).  Master of the Land, needed by a Master Brain.  Seventh Doctor faced them too, Greatest Show in the Galaxy. Robot clowns.

    Gods connected to Heaven, they could reanimate dead bodies.  More than anything they want to be entertained.

    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    @bivium6 I’m totally on board with The Mind Robber. And brilliant thought on the Gods of Ragnarok: I had completely forgotten about them. The key here is that whoever put Clara into the Doctor’s life was trying to stop the GI (in the first instance, but presumably with a larger plan), and that suggests someone with the same kind of background as the GI.

    Indeed, this makes sense of all the ‘heaven’ references. Is the Doctor up against the Old Gods? Now there’s a proper Big Bad!

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Rough n Ready…


    McCoy praises Capaldi…


    Doctor Who, Deep Breath managed to hit No.8 in the UK cinema box office for the weekend! Took in just over £500,000.

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    ”Where is all the leftover Doctor? …..Beware…There may be more of him out there…”

    bivium6 @bivium6

    Cybermen are Robots too.  Death in Heaven.  I’m liking this.  Thanks for the Toymaker thought @FiveFaces

    This is why forums are so awesome.  Ideas lead to ideas.  Bean from Ender’s Shadow said it best “One mind can think only of its own questions; it rarely surprises itself.”  Good reason for the Doctor to bring along companions.

    Gotta love McCoy 🙂

    wolfweed @wolfweed



    I bet that was a bugger to get down…

    thommck @thommck

    @wolfeed as well as getting him down, she had to find his hat too!


    thought I had earlier was that Humpty isn’t humanoid/alive anyway, even if he thinks he has in a Frankenstein way. He’s just a robot with human pays tracked on. Artificial intelligence.


    so why would he go to heaven at ask. Also, the doctor should have no qualms about destroying him.

    thommck @thommck

    apologies for spelling, that’s what I get for using my so called smartphone

    Serahni @serahni

    New bonkers Missy theory time!  Or at least an extension of others.

    A friend in my Facebook feed wrote:

    What if the Oswin Oswald Dalek somehow survived the destruction of the Dalek Asylum world? What a great villain she would make.

    And I immediately thought…yeah, she WOULD.  A crazy-bonkers Dalek Clara trapped inside a fantasy-world of her own devising.  Sort of like…Paradise.

    Dun dun duuuuun.

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    If Terror of the Zygons had been made during the Tennant era, the scene where the Doctor stops himself & Sarah Jane needing to breath would probably have been done more like the Vastra/Jenny kiss…

    chickenelly @chickenelly

    @wolfweed, is Baker looking shocked at Sarah Jane taking his Baked Alaska out of the freezer early? [UK viewers will be able to  tell what I’ve been watching tonight!]

    However, that’s just a distraction.  Just idly watching some bits from Deep Breath and it may have been mentioned above – if not I’ll claim what little glory there is.  The advert in The Times states:

    ‘Impossible Girl. Lunch on the other side’.

    Can this be read as a quite literal lonely hearts advert from Missy?  Technically she’s on the other side in the promised land/heaven.

    wolfweed @wolfweed


    ”Oh, no, that’s good. Awwwwww. Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww…

    It’s good…”

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    This story is amazing…


    I didn’t know about this, either… It seems that it’s been at  a standstill for a while now. I hope they can get it made (When Capaldi eventually stops doing more important things….).

    Anonymous @

    Good point @purofilion, the Dino Missy theory gets really stretched if the Promised Land is a real place like you explained. I will try anyway. 😆

     If the Dinosaur was a Time Traveling Ship (like some have suggested) then spontaneous combustion would be a good description of the engines exploding. The Dinosaur could be a Teselecta with Missy at the helm? That’s a strange use of Teselecta Technology, which blends into its surroundings, but we don’t know where it came from.

     The HFM said that the part taken from the Dinosaur’s optic nerve was critical for repairing their computer systems. That might mean a mechanical part, since he just got new eyes from Alfie.

    Like @janetteb said, the Timey Wimey disappearing act is possble

     The living Dinosaur theory has some good things too:

     It is easier to transport Humpy (with hat) to a virtual paradise, and Dino could assume the avatar Missy there. It explains Missy keeping the Doctor’s accent (she used to speak dinosaur). And Missy isn’t creepy when I picture her as a dinosaur biting the air. 🙂

     @Thommck Glad you laughed. It is too funny. If anyone can, Moffat might be able to twist it into something dark though. He is very good at that sort of thing. I can’t wait to see what comes next.

    Anonymous @

    @wolfweed thank you for putting the pre-show up. The laughter: was that yours? Or someone sitting beside you? Hilarious with the chin and the ears. Now, my boy would have found that a thrilling way to ‘get into the whole new Doctor thing’ -but we were at home. With scarf and jelly babies and custard -bit difficult to transport.

    @thommck  yes, the doctor would see Humpty’s not real per se, but then he just seemed real didn’t he? Particularly near the end, with his slow and teetering “how would you kill me?”

    @fivefaces this Old Gods thing sounds fascinating but I haven’t heard of it before -missed those series and those doctors, I guess! I must go google as this theory is gaining some prominence. I imagine @confusedpolarity would be an expert on this with the knowledge of BG Who.

    @barnable I can’t argue with the Dinosaur being a tesselecta!  -yes, it could be harvested, I think? And with Missy as the ‘driver’. Mind you, I thought the tesselecta ‘group’ had one aim in mind -kill the maddies and the baddies.

    Living dinosaur, deliberately combusting to take ‘whomever to wherever’ would work as the combustion is the cover -the other murders are separate although we assume (through the Drs new eyes)  that this murder & the others must be related -so maybe not.

    If the Dinosaur swallowed a TARDIS could the D. be bigger on the outside?? I think someone up thread suggested this?

    For ages I was always thinking that the Flesh Gangers would return somehow – that there was some sense that the Flesh Woman at the end of that two parter -when we discover Amy is pregnant (and yet elsewhere) – could rejuvenate…. The Dr made some comment that it could be possible, that there was somewhere they might ‘go’. Just a thought…. Though I think that could be upstream somewhere. Thing is, I wake up, have these ideas over night & boom!! so do others. This is great!!

    @arbutus I totally agree about the notion that the Dr has a point at which he’s ‘cooked’. With Tennant, it was when he popped his head out of the TARDIS and said ‘hello’ and the TARDIS translation sequence was working. I got the impression, too, that the point at which Cap-Doc grabbed Clara’s hand was that change-over. But barnable was thinking the Dr popped out for longer -fixing a problem elsewhere -not just finding some non-smelly clothes & pulling himself together.

    Kindest, puro.

    Anonymous @

    DW is serious show with some humor mixed in. My apologies to everyone for proposing that theory, I didn’t know where it would lead to.  I have unlimited faith in SM, but Missy can’t be dinosaur.

    @thommck is right that Moffat just went for a great visual affect. The dinosaur being a little over sized is not that bad, in retrospect.

    @purofilion – my BG Who knowledge is practically nonexistant still, but the your ideas for the dinosaur sound more in keeping with the cannon of DW.

    bivium6 @bivium6

    @pufferfish you can see his side-eye, whereas the dormant droids are facing forward, unseeing. So he never *quite* abandons her in the ‘larder’.

    You’re right.  And he is also the “droid” who dragged her away.  I bet that was the Doctor who put the dream in her mind of the kids screaming, so she would start the ball rolling.  He believed in her, that she would ask questions, he called her that when he was describing her at the beginning.

    @wolfweed It’s fun to start kinda making fun about that kiss.  They are way too over the top about the fact they are married.  So what?  I don’t know about anyone else but that doesn’t make any difference to me.  But by calling attention to it all the time, they make it a big deal.  Two people (or alien and human) being married is not a big deal.  Discrimination to treat them different.

    And when Jenny said it didn’t matter what she looked like she loved Vastra.  So Clara is allowed to love the Doctor but not in a loving way?  He flirted with her, so she’s suppose to love him as a friend?  Seems confusing to me.


    I watched the episodes, but it wasn’t till @fivefaces brought up the Toymaker I started thinking about the Old Ones.  Another thought, Tennant spoke of the Old Ones calling the Void the Hollowing in Doomsday.

    It also brings to mind a question, are the Old Ones linked to the Eternals and/or the Guardians of Time?  They both existed during the Dark Times.  And the Toymaker is part of that group now.

    I’m starting to confuse myself lol.

    Silverman @silverman

    Apologies: this is a bit long…


    I think I prefer the historically-set episodes of Doctor Who, and like the historical facts scattered within, but agree with your point that Sci-Fi writers shouldn’t have to adopt an educational role. Perfectly happy to not have historical elements in the show – just get them factually correct when they do feature. It’s also nice just putting educational facts in – like when Tennant’s Doctor was explaining about happy prime numbers!

    I’ve been arguing all day with a commenter on Den of Geek about putting ‘history’ in the show, and specifically about there being no record in history of a massive dinosaur stomping all over London. He suggested – perhaps not unfairly – that in a show about a timelord with two hearts travelling in time and space in a blue box, that I shouldn’t complain about lack-of-realism, and remember that it’s all fantasy.

    I would say that there’s a difference with something being ostensibly set in the real world, and it being portrayed as real. In sci-fi and drama shows tend to be SET in the real world, but obviously not real – ie. ‘it’s the real world’ but with exceptions – normally the superhuman/alien/special protagonist. The unspoken setting is that everything around them is contemporary present.

    Perhaps I’m being a pedant, but I tend to assume that unless obviously shown to be set somewhere else – be it Tatooine, Middle Earth or Westeros – that shows are ostensibly set in ‘our’ world. It’s a concept well-used in other shows.  The X-Files was ostensibly ‘our’ world, and while it’s obviously fiction the fun suggestion was that these things happened, but we just didn’t know it.  ‘Ultraviolet’ in the 90s with Idris Elba and Jack Davenport in, was about an agency hunting down vampires. The show was set, for-all-intents-and-purposes in ‘our’ world, and the key to getting us to believe in vampires (within the borders of the story) is to suggest that we just didn’t know about them.

    I prefer it when Doctor Who aheres to these ‘rules’ and takes mysterious established events and provides an ‘explanation’ – Agatha Christie’s disappearance in the 20s for instance (although I hated the massive Wasp…ugh, so bad…). While it’s obviously not true, from a narrative point-of-view I’ve always liked the idea that you can keep up the pretense of it being in ‘our world’ because the events that happen in the past are rarely witnessed by a multitute…or they’d be history. Smaller happenings can be kept quiet.

    In fact, forget the ‘real’ world. If that dinosaur had been stomping round in the world of Doctor Who, then Clara would know about it, Rose would know about it, and every character in the show would know about it, because they’d have been taught in school in history, that a massive dinosaur stomped round London in the 1880s.

    The show itself obviously considers this a valid point too. When a massive Cyber factory stomped around Victorian London in ‘The Next Doctor’ it raised the same issues (as did @janetteb). When Matt Smith’s Doctor discovered the cracks in time a series or so later, he was musing on the cracks ‘eating’ time and certain events, and mused words to the effect of:

    “…a massive cyber-factory attacks London and no-one remembers.”

    insinuating that the crack ate the event and that’s why it’s not recorded in ‘our’ history books.

    Silverman @silverman

    @purofilian @thommck – I addressed your replies above but it wouldn’t ‘tag’ properly…

    Anonymous @

    @bivium6 I think the point of the conversation with Clara was the Jenny was saying something like “look past the face and into the person’s heart(s)”; then the love is unconditional. It’s love but different to the physical love that Jenny and Vastra evidently share. With a time lord that kind of love is impossible. He ages, he changes whilst his companions age and die.

    @chickenelly I like your idea of “lunch on the other side”. Quite. She’s in ‘heaven’ (cue Fred Astaire) but the ‘lunch’ bit is worrying: of course, was the Doctor supposed to be harvested in the ‘larder’ together with Clara who would both end up in the Promised Land -a place and ‘The Paradise’? For Missy, it was 50/50 as to who would ‘jump’? Maybe not, and, either way, she’d be ‘thrilled’.

    Kindest, purofilion

    midnyt @midnyt

    Well, that was an exercise in patience and avoidance.   The episode didn’t air in our theaters until Monday here in the US.  So I’ve been managing to avoid all things Who-related for for a extra couple of days.

    My ramblings:

    I enjoyed Capaldi’s first out tremendously.   I love the accent myself (wish David had been allowed his back in the day, I love listening to that man talk).  The attack eyebrows cracked me up.

    Clara was both better and worse for me.  So I’m still kind of annoyed by her character.   She seems more human and less “perfect” than before, but still has that air of smugness about her that I just want to smack her for.   I thought the scolding Vastra gave her was needed.  Both for the character and for much of the audience who has only been with Who for the new era.   But she lost much of the development she gained when the “veil was lifted” for me by thinking the Doctor had left her behind.   Especially after he rescued her already.   (“OMG he changed.  No, it’s all good, he’s still the Doctor.  He left me.  Oh, here he is, he saved me.  Oh, he left me behind. I don’t think I know him.”  Seriously?)”

    I enjoyed the extra moments with Jenny and Vastra.  Could use a little more Straxx though.   He has some unused potential.

    Missy, I’m intrigued.  Don’t think it’s River though.  While there is nothing preventing River from showing up again, I don’t think this is it.  Maybe because I really just want Alex to show up one last time and “Hello Sweetie” Capaldi and see him tell her off.   (I want this even more after seeing him tell Clara “I’m not your boyfriend”.  Is that wrong?)

    Matt’s phone call.  I didn’t need it and still kind of wish we didn’t have it.  But then, Matt’s not my favorite Doctor.  I can sort of see why it was needed for those who Matt is their favorite or are still new to Who.    I still think it kind of undermines progress Clara had made for me.

    The story itself had some nice nods to the past, without overshadowing the fact that they were introducing a new doctor.   As a post on pinterest says “50 years and some of the creepiest monsters are still clockwork”.

    RE: The dinosaurs and the history.  I imagine this the way a lot of things go in the Who-universe.  The Autons in Rose, the spaceship in David’s first Christmas special, the Cybermen attack mentioned above, the Titanic nearly crashing into the Earth.   If you like you can use the cracks to explain away all of that, or you can simply realize that in Who, they simply remember for a short time and then it fades away like it never happened.  And I’m OK with that.

    wolfweed @wolfweed


    To clarify, The 4th Doctor & Sarah Jane’s lips would have met but it would have been ambiguous as to whether it was a kiss or not…

    (Think Smith & Jones’ : genetic transfer or kiss?)


    And I see your point about Vastra & Jenny. Oh… They’re married, so they’re ‘allowed’ to share oxygen…


    Anonymous @

    @silverman absolutely a good point; I think this is why several posts up thread have discussed some possibilities for getting ‘around’ the dinosaur -seeing it in the night, late in the afternoon and having it gone in an evening; the idea it was the government would convince the proto socialists at the time; the Industrial Revolution. Could we mention Torchwood here? It was set up by Queen Victoria after Tooth and Claw.

    As for historical episodes with Moffat we have Vincent, Churchill and WW2 etc…there’s quite a few? At least as many with Tennant/RTD.

    Kindest, purofilion (yes, the word is ‘Ilion’ not ‘Ilian’ & difficult to tag. Ilion is Greek: the fire or pur which roared from the towers of Ilion and the pyres of Patroklos).

    Anonymous @

    @silverman you answered many of your own questions. 

    But your biggest complaint is not valid.  You assume that everyone doesn’t remember the dinosaur from history, which is not proven at all.  We won’t know the affects on future history classes until the show goes into the future where people could have been taught about it.  Clara’s memories could have been changing while the events happened for her.   We haven’t seen Rose or any of the other characters from the show, after these events took place. They just happened, Timey Wimey.


    bivium6 @bivium6

    @wolfweed  And I see your point about Vastra & Jenny. Oh… They’re married, so they’re ‘allowed’ to share oxygen…

    They could’ve spent that beat watching Clara fiddle with the sonic, not know what to do and put it in her pocket.  I don’t remember there being a chance for her to have given it back.

    @wolfweed    It started with a phone call. It ended with a phone call…   @ArbutusThat is rather lovely.

    I hadn’t thought if it that way, very true.

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    The 1st Doctor Who lesbian kiss…


    These ladies weren’t married. Am I bovvered?


    Funnily enough, I just found this…

    bivium6 @bivium6

    Harriet Jones Prime Minister – We know

    Vastra and Jenny are married – We know

    Anonymous @

    @midnyt  you did well avoiding Who-related matters for that long!  Welcome back btw.

    Yes, I agree with you about the idea of just accepting that Who’s monsters and odd creatures come and  vanish. If we couldn’t have them because of History then the show would stall.

    I think Clara is young and as Cap-Doc said ‘needy’. Spot on because she is: she’s used to the Dr saying ‘trust me’ and ‘I’ll be back, I promise’ and she’s used him for all sorts of odd things  -“haven’t you got an app on the Sonic to cook the Turkey?” He replies: “you have to stop asking me for these sorts of things.”

    He was very reliable; quite keen to act and be virtually human.

    This new Doctor is quite a shock and I think very different to Tennant. Perhaps he’s similar to Eccleston’s Doctor (for the younger viewers who don’t know the Doctor before 2005 or haven’t befriended a Doctor before Matt).

    As @pedant said, it’s a diverse constituency and perhaps Clara is analogous to the ‘general’ young and rather fickle audience. Certainly audiences these days are very fickle, much less loyal, have a short attention span and need a lot of persuasion.

    When she spoke angrily to Vastra about not liking ‘pretty boys’, I think this was different to her concern about whether the Doctor was necessarily a good person this time ’round and therefore someone to whom she could incline in times of crisis. Whilst he ‘saved’ her, she had saved him on Trenzalore not realising perhaps that this incarnation would be so different.

    She assumed (as twentysomethings do) that a ‘renewed’ person wouldn’t look old, lined and weary. Maybe she thought the weary demeanour and the cross eyebrows (‘independently cross’) would imply the recklessness & the lust for life had lapsed-due to his experiences on Christmas/Trenzalore. And of course they have had an impact. She’s wondering what that impact is and how (being needy) it may affect her.

    Kindest, purofilion


    Anonymous @

    @barnable I see what you mean -this is an ‘in show’ time-line. In past episodes, we know that the ‘giant spaceship from the planet blerpahdinagog’  entered Earth’s atmosphere because it’s registered in History books- but only the History books within the story we see.

    @silverman  same goes for the Dinosaur in London. History is changed in- story. Just as there’s no real Doctor (out of story), there’s a real Doctor in-story battling all sorts of monsters. After all, during The End of Time, or The End of the World (or one of the ends!), Canary Wharf exploded. It’s in -story then but not in our own ‘real’ History.

    So, the Dinosaur will be written about in ‘other’ History books during Victorian England. Maybe Clara spotted it in the library -which she’s now forgotten anyway.  🙂

    I’m shortly to get my backside kicked I think…

    Kindest, puro.

    midnyt @midnyt

    @purofilion – “When she spoke angrily to Vastra about not liking ‘pretty boys’…”  methinks the lady doth protest too much.

    I think she got called out on her shortcomings and she got defensive.

    Granted I understand that knowing about him regenerating is different than experiencing it, but even if she didn’t remember being in his timestream and meeting the previous “old” versions of him, she still met the War Doctor.  She should know that he’s not always the dashing young suitor that she “fancied” on Trenzalore.  So her being shallow and needy but covering it up with smug doesn’t really improve anything for me.  If anything, it makes me want to slap her even more.   She’s simply the type of person I wouldn’t want to be around and there’s nothing in her storyline that makes me want to watch her.  She’s not even the person you love to hate.

    Anonymous @

    @midnyt  Okaay no mincing of words there!  🙂  In the earlier series, when we first met Clara Oswald and she sat with the Doctor after having her head ‘spooned’ (in the café), I admit I didn’t like her. To me, she represented all the things about young British girls on TV I’d seen a lot of (and I’m from Oz): she wore kick-ass boots (who doesn’t!); typical tights with a short skirt (yawn) the pretty (but shallow?) smile; she spoke quickly -rambled  in fact without thinking, was a tad arrogant & a bit smug!  Now…..

    she’s different (to me): I thought that the actress was allowed to show a lot more: a heartbreak, a great dialogue with the Doctor in Mancini’s and a final acceptance of this new, weightier Doctor. But yes, time will tell if she allows herself to slow down and work things out with ‘class’.

    Do you think it’s a casting problem or a script issue with Moffat?

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @silverman   I completely agree with this. From a dramatic point of view, I liked what the dinosaur brought to the Doctor’s post-regen recovery. But I wish they could have come up with a way of presenting it such that it didn’t leave such an obvious gaping hole in the history books. It’s more clever to have sci-fi events that tie in with real ones in some way (as per your Agatha Christie example). And like you, I prefer it when facts can be gotten right rather than wrong.

    @barnable   I think that Silverman’s point was that he is assuming that the Earth of Doctor Who is our Earth, and the future is our future. So it wouldn’t just be future characters in the show that would remember the dinosaur, we would remember it. It’s certainly possible to do a time travel show differently, but it’s an individual thing which style you prefer. Of course, BG Who used to be pretty good about ensuring that our history books weren’t contradicted in any obvious ways!

    @purofilion   Yes, Torchwood! I wonder if the Paternoster Trio’s London is set before or after the establishment of Torchwood? Because you would think they’d have been all over a giant dinosaur in the Thames, wouldn’t you? And I like your assessment of Clara’s feelings here, it fits well with what we have seen. (By the way, Puro, this is you taking a breather, is it?  😉  )

    I also agree with @midnyt, though, that there was an element of defensiveness in the “pretty boys” remark. But what she was pointing out, quite fairly, was that there is more to her than that. I also feel that, while she certainly knew that the Doctor has been older, she wouldn’t have realized that a new incarnation might begin older. (And in fact, we know from Night of the Doctor that the War Doctor didn’t begin older.) And as I have said before, I still think that meeting this elderly Doctor, then saying goodbye and leaving with her own version, isn’t the same thing as knowing that your own version is gone for good.

    @bivium6    “We know”    This made me laugh.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @purofilion    I know what you mean. I remember not liking modern Clara nearly as much as Victorian Clara. I think that part of it for me was the inner sigh… Yes, it’s another companion under the age of 25, above average in the looks department and wearing miniskirts and tights. Oh Donna, Donna, wherefore art thou, Donna?

    But accepting that Clara/Jenna’s age isn’t her fault, there were problems with the writing of the character that have been discussed before. I think that in these last few post-NotD episodes, we are seeing the attempts to give her the depth of character that she was lacking as The Impossible Girl. I’ll be interested to see if that continues.

    midnyt @midnyt

    @purofilion  Probably a script issue.  I haven’t seen Jenna in anything else so I don’t really have a feel for her as an actor.  I did enjoy Clara in Time of the Doctor when we got to see her interacting with her family.  I had hopes (still do) that we might see some better development from her character.   I think the flip-flopping was what got to me in this first episode.  She supposedly “got it” when Vastra scolded her and Vastra’s veil disappeared, but then was right back to “I don’t know who he is” and he had to beg her to see him at the end.  It felt out of sync.  Once she got it, she should have been allowed to get it and move on to acceptance.   But it’s like they had to backpedal to get that call from Matt in there.  So either let her get and move on, or move the whole “lifting the veil” scene until the end or remove it entirely.

    midnyt @midnyt

    @arbutus  I miss Donna too.  Most of my friends hated Donna, but she was my fave companion for 10.   Looking back, doesn’t Rose just look comfortable?  She took off in her jeans/t-shirt/hoodie.  Maybe its the Midwest girl in me or the fact that I’m older, but it would be jeans for me.  Seriously, can you imagine trying to put on tights while the TARDIS is spinning through the vortex?

    Anonymous @

    @silverman – Your preference for the more historical episodes, with educational facts thrown in, is understandable.  I think many BG Whovians feel the same way.

     I’ve always liked the idea that you can keep up the pretense of it being in ‘our world’ because the events that happen in the past are rarely witnessed by a multitute…or they’d be history. Smaller happenings can be kept quiet.

    That’s what I like too.  However, I disagree that the number of witnesses affects the pretense in anyway.

    1. Smaller happenings can be kept quiet ….. (True).
    2. Large events with witness – they’d be history…… (not always true).

    All the show has to do is give an explanation for why the large event was erased from the history books. It’s a choice to believe the explanation the show gives.  Believing the show’s explanation for Agatha Christie’s disappearance (tUatW), should be no different than believing the show’s explanation for what happened to the history books.  The historical record in ‘our world’, for the world of DW, is always the show for large and small events.

    There should be some explanation for why that dinosaur isn’t in the history books, but it might take a while. Like you said, it takes a couple seasons sometimes.  🙂


    Anonymous @

    @arbutus @midnyt @barnable  oh blimey, you’re right Arbutus, I need a breather. I can’t really explain it. I see the dino should be ‘in History’ but the World is the Dr’s World, right? Or not right? I don’t think…I do not think (cue Humpty losing power) there’s a grey point there. You see Dino, or you do not.

    Alright, so what was happening at that point in Historical London? -marvellous developments in fun fairs and great expos where enormous things were built and shown by the very rich entrepreneurs for their amusement; towers; spinning wheels….? Who’s gonna Google that first? 🙂

    As for gals in TARDIS, I agree. I liked Rose in those first  seasons: ordinary; mussy hair; no lipstick; a big grin and way too much mascara but you know…. a decent sized ass….she was no size 2 here. Then Martha, then  Donna (yay); then back to a 19 year old red head with long legs, panty-hose and no eye-lines followed by a cutie “5 foot 1 and arguing & you don’t stand a chance” said Cap-Doc. He said it!

    So, the chattery London voice is annoying but that could be my memories of relatives who are irritating, saying ‘hiya’ and. talking. all. day. long.

    Kindest, (blowing my noise; of course I could be feverish), purofdidlion

    Anonymous @

    as for large events ‘not making’  history how many post modernists and apologists thought certain elements within Nazi Germany did not exist? -how many just looked the other way, even decades later, even with all the History books?

    Anonymous @

    @arbutus I was talking to my brother about the Who series and his favourite wasn’t Martha because she ‘had a loud annoying voice”. He preferred Liz Sladen because she was feminine and then Rose when she wasn’t too loud! She was also “pretty good looking”. He liked Amy because she had long legs. So, there you go. The family. And it’s a microcosm of society.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @purofilion    Okay, I’ve been thinking about this some more. The thing is, we say “Victorian London” but that covers a lot of time. Giant cyber robot over Victorian London (The Next Doctor) happened in 1851, fairly problematic but the cracks apparently took care of that? But Vastra and Company live in Conan Doyle’s era, so that puts them forty years on. Things have changed amazingly in forty years: there are telephones, early cars and airplanes, moving pictures. HG Wells is writing his sci-fi novels. A giant dinosaur appears in the Thames, the authorities have no explanation, so people provide their own. Some kind of new weapon or technology, that gets out of control so the government won’t talk about it. Deniability. A bit like, say, if aliens came to the western United States and the government covered it up. It isn’t in the history books!

    Yes, your brother would be a perfect example of why they cast the way they do. And people (often men) have the nerve to get cranky about what they call “fan-girls” crushing on Tennant or Smith. Ha. Lis Sladen was of course gorgeous. But she was a grownup. She acted like one and certainly dressed like one (I used to love her wardrobe!). If I went in the TARDIS, I would have the best time with the wardrobe room, or whatever it’s called where the companions acquire their historic costumes!

    Okay, I am really going to bed now, this is ridiculous. But it has been very hot all day, and finally bearable now at 11:30 at night. Not our usual thing, I do assure you. But off to (hopefully) sleep now, and try to put away bonkers theorizing and psychoanalysis of Doctors and Companions until tomorrow!   🙂


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