Deep Breath

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    wolfweed @wolfweed

    The Doctor & Barbara up a tree…
    Extended BFI video

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @whisht    Missy is the SS Madame de Pompadour.   Score! This is brilliant.

    @wolfweed    It started with a phone call. It ended with a phone call…   That is rather lovely.

    I read your links regarding “the kiss” with interesting, particularly some of the embedded tweets. This one gave me a good laugh (not that it reflects my view of the episode, but I love the humorous way it dismisses the issue): If Vastra’s and Jenny’s kiss offended you more than the writing and plot of the new ‪#DoctorWho you need to sort out your priorities.

    @geoffers    I liked your thought that Clara saved the Doctor in TotD, with her plea to the Time Lords, but that she couldn’t save her Doctor. Very bittersweet.

    @scaryb   @geoffers    Regarding the aging of our loved ones, it’s the same thing with children. My son is 15 and very suddenly a young man. At times the boy is still there, but the little boy is really gone. I can imagine how Clara might, at times, see bits of “her Doctor” in the new version, and that might both comfort her and make her miss him all the more.

    @thommck  Excellent point about the Doctor’s watch, I had forgotten about the wristwatch, and that would explain why he still had it on him. And by the way, I will be calling Half Faced Man “Humpty” from now on.  🙂

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @geoffers Re my previous post about Clara  no longer having the ability to save him – this incarnation is beyond her experience  – this one here

    @arbutus – you’re re right it happens with children too (I just picked on the old age example and @geoffers picked up on the passage of time re friends). Much as you love and get excited by the young adult now before you, there is always a bit of  longing for the tiny baby who was 100% dependent on you has gone (in a haze of sleep deprivation and lost memories, LOL).

    But my point was that it’s usually the Doctor who has to face this ageing process in his sort lifespan friends. This time it’s the other way round.

    I don’t buy into the Doctor pushing Humpty (thanks @thommck ) tho – that’s too big step away from what we know him to be. Especially since the Day of the Doctor which was all about establishing the timeline where the Doctor DIDN’T wipe out the 2,000+ children of Gallifrey. And establishing that there is ALWAYS another choice, you just have to look hard enough. (Getting him drunk on whisky so that he fused and staggered out – now that’s another question)

    And I certainly don’t trust Missy a fraction of a Gallifreyan nanomite. The hesitation before pronouncing the word “boyfriend” suggests it’s a 1-way view to me,  the apparent delivery of the “promised land” to Humpty – I don’t believe a word of it!  She’s definitely up to something and it doesn’t bode well for our TARDIS team. I do like the Master/Mistress theory – from the name, the promised land/utopia parallel etc)


    stevethewhistle @steve-thorp

    What did anyone think about The Doctor chalking symbols on the bedroom floor?

    I wondered if he was trying to calculate a way to send the dynosaur back to her own time.

    bivium6 @bivium6

    Hi everyone,

    First post, I only have a minute, but I just wanted to mention Marie Antoinette was 37 when she died by having her head removed.  Interesting connection to Madame de Pompadour.

    Susan said the French Revolution was the Doctor’s favorite time in Earth history.

    Anonymous @

    Welcome bivium6,

    Very helpful first post, I’ve been looking for a way that Marie Antoinette could possibly be Missy (that lost head thing keeps getting in the way though 🙂 ).

    geoffers @geoffers

    @scaryb – ah, thank you for the link. i agree with that assessment. i also believe that the trenzalore affair is now a “closed timeloop” sort of situation, in the same way that most of the events in ‘journey to the centre of the tardis’ happened, then were un-happened (i feel so sorry for any non-native english speakers who might be trying to figure out what we are saying, lol). clara is clearly the original, now, and all her claricle interactions happened in the doctor’s final incarnation… in that aborted timeline. which should also mean that we can’t have any more claricle stories, right? though twelve can still cross paths with eleven? it’s all so confusing, sometimes!! lol
    <h2 class=”user-nicename”>@steve-thorp @stevethewhistle  – that could be. i thought he was just “refreshing” his mind, of things he wanted to remember.</h2>
    @thommck – i’m firmly in the camp with those who think half-face man jumped. when he lowered his flaming arm weapon, and extinguished its flame (a metaphor for losing the drive to keep living?), i took that as acceptance of the doctor’s reasoning, and his fate was sealed. yes, twelve talked him into it, but it wasn’t murder in the sense of all of HFM’s previous victims. they had no choice, whether to live or die. HFM could have resumed the struggle, or sneak-attacked the doctor, but then it would be self-defense, anyway, for the doctor. (plus, the scenes were edited in such a way that more struggling wasn’t forthcoming, at that point.) twelve convinced him that, not only was he more human than machine, now (and thus, could override his original droid prohibition against self-destruction), but that his ONLY chance to reach the promised land was to really die.* otherwise, it would be more killing and replacing himself, on “the long way around” in time, that might never end…

    * something the doctor doesn’t think HE can do, or could/would choose to do, himself? or perhaps that he wouldn’t be admitted to any heaven, because of his chequered past?

    as for whether the doctor could/would murder someone? i think, definitely (but always with the opponent having a chance to defend/redeem himself/herself)! but he has his own rules for when that might be an option, and it’s always the final option. a good example is the old man in ‘dinosaurs on a spaceship.’ he gave that guy many opportunities to turn back from the path that would lead to the doctor killing him. but the old man wouldn’t accept those other ways out, and was trapped at the last by his own refusal to do so. i don’t think eleven took any pleasure in killing him (or “arranging” his death, if you will), and he only reaches that point of no return with the worst of the bad. the really stubborn, reckless, hateful, spiteful (anti-life) people. i often wonder if he will ever reach that point with the master? that dude has more blood on his hands than the doctor could ever dream of, yet he still tries to rehabilitate him!

    anyway, this is why i love this forum! being open to other peoples’ ideas, and getting to share my point of view back with you guys. whether we are right or wrong, regarding what actually happens in the episode, we learn so much that we otherwise might miss, had we just stuck to our individual opinions. this is what the trolls miss out on, in their eagerness to insult and belittle: the sense of community, and shared passion, that makes us all slightly more learned creatures, at the end of the day…


    bivium6 @bivium6

    Another quick post while I should be working lol.


    I’m pretty sure Ten gave the fob watch to Tim at the end of Family of Blood


    I really agree with your examples of how the Doctor interacts with the lives of the people around him. I have the Who and Philosphy book and there are chapters on his different views of morality. He shows concern, not compassion.

    Anyone else think the garden at the end looked like Apalapucia’s Two Streams Facility in The Girl Who Waited? The gate was the portal to all the different zones and Missy is the Gatekeeper.

    Whisht @whisht

    Hi @bivium6 – “the game’s afoot!” (as some other character might say!).

    That is a really interesting bit of info!

    But how the hell does it fit into a bonkers theory… (replaces tinfoil cap).

    The SS Mdme de Pompadour (ie the ship) is (or thinks it is) 37 when it gets damaged.
    It needs the real Mdme de Pompadour’s head at 37 but doesn’t get it.
    Was its sister ship (the SS Marie Antoinette) also damaged at the same time and succeed in getting her brain??!?

    But even if it did, if it was Missy then it wouldn’t think its the Doctor’s girlfriend… and Marie Antoinette wasn’t a mistress.

    Missy does like a garden though – as did both Mdme de Pompadour and Marie Antoinette.

    What else… the ‘real’ Mdme de Pompadour did get access to the Doctor’s mind and saw how lonely he was (and maybe more?).

    I’m missing something obvious here (other than obviously Missy not being the ship, but to hell with that – that’s not as fun as trying to shoe horn all this together!!).


    ah well, looks like I’ll have to put the shoe-horning of ‘Missy is the Papal Mainframe’ on hold!

    Whisht @whisht

    btw – I think that half-face-man (who gets the credit for that name? or Humpty!?) jumped.

    He said he could not commit suicide.
    The Doctor said he can’t murder.
    “But we both know one of us is lying about our basic programming” (or words to that affect).

    It was HFM who was lying – his programming allowed him to die – it was the addition of all those human parts that had affected him to not believing he should.
    The Doctor merely made him confront the truth.

    Now, did the impulse to jump come from wanting to get to the Promised Land? or realising that his mission had failed (as in GitF)?
    Well don’t look at me – this is all far too logical and I only do bonkers! 🙂

    Anonymous @

    @whisht @bivium6 @barnable  I was thinking about some way Madame could be Missy too -either madame’s really. But with Pompadour, I too wondered about the kiss and how instead of the ‘piano falling on her head’ response, she ends up looking into the Dr’s ‘soul’ with his response being: ‘how did you do that?’.

    The Lonely God you all referenced; and the lonely boy. She must have seen how he was falling for her? Also, her intellect and cleverness was legendary….what if she exchanged something timelordy with him in that kiss (or there were two I think?)?  And it had some bizarre timewhimey result – of course she actually died and we know that, but some 2 stream universe into which, well, the dead people go? I know you’ve said all this (& thank you for these wondrous ideas when I wake up every day btw) , but I’m trying to make sense of it.

    I love the piano meme: there was a piano in the 2 parter The Family of Blood. Maybe the Dr referenced this before telling Vastra a veritable piano might fall on her head when sharing ‘mindstreams’? He was all a-kook at that point 🙂

    Serahni @serahni

    One very small thing before I head off to work for the first time in two days.  Bronchitis for the lose.

    @scaryb  Are we really sure that Clara’s experience with the Doctor only extends up to number 11?  It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that when you jump into someone’s timestream, you jump into ALL of him.  If there’s one constant in Who, it’s that the Doctor’s life doesn’t exist in a linear sense so I’m not sure I’d go as far as to limit Clara to only the point in which she jumped in.  They clearly weren’t going to show us future glimpses because “spoilers!” but I’m very resistant to trusting Moffat to close any book and leave it closed!  I certainly agree that it can go either way and that if he intends to close off the “Impossible Girl” arc indefinitely, then your explanation works perfectly.  I just also think there’s some room for him to argue later on that the whole ‘everything exists at the same time’ wibbly-wobbly theory was in play and that, by jumping into his timestream, she got stretched along the duration of his entire life.  The Doctor’s constantly meeting himself and his timeline has more loops than a rollercoaster.  Anything seems possible.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    something the doctor doesn’t think HE can do, or could/would choose to do, himself? or perhaps that he wouldn’t be admitted to any heaven, because of his chequered past?

    From what we know of Time Lords, they think religion is a very low class sort of thing. So I suspect the Doctor’s default position is ‘there is no afterlife’.

    As I said somewhere earlier, I think this may turn out to be a case of the Doctor jumping to conclusions. There’s some kind of science fiction-y, possibly virtual Promised Land which is also an afterlife.

    Anonymous @

    @stevethewhistle  Ah haa! yes, you’re right I think. I couldn’t come up with a plausible reason for all the scratching. But he did say complete with mime (which he hates along with karaoke) that he would get her home and look after her! What a desperate kindness. Rocking a baby in his arms: how sad, to me, anyway.

    @geoffers great to see you mate. Missed you. Wonderful comments about ‘HFM’

    Anonymous @

    @steve-thorp above I think -apologies for clogging up the activity page (again)

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Has anyone actually considered that the promised land might actually be a place therefore the mandroid was being literal. Oops oh yes I think maybe someone has as wasn’t a mentioning of utopia made earlier and that it was a real place so couldn’t promised land or paradise be a place, but if you all remember utopia turned out to not be real and see what happened to all the nice ppl there…. Hmmm oh and wasn’t the master involved in that little fiasco lol

    Anonymous @

    Yes, the Promised Land what with what I know of it from Sunday School involved a whole of people walking in the desert in circles (ah ha, circles, people) until, having atoned for being, basically, naughty, they found the actual Promised land -a place as @bluesqueakpip says, exists in a real world. The Church of LDS thinks it’s in Palmyra (wrong spelling) I believe, and those of the Jewish Hebraic tradition believe it’s in….etc. So, in the future or another universe, it is a place …a Utopia. But everything looks so very bright and awfully colourful…like the dreams some might have on methadone! Sticky orange, bright blue and vivid greens and blood reds. It’s hiding something awful, truly awful, I think. Kindest, puro.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @geoffers    the really stubborn, reckless, hateful, spiteful (anti-life) people  I really like this phrase. I would guess that the Doctor, from pretty early on in his evolution, would have viewed this kind of person as the worst that the universe has on offer. Like the Daleks.

    I don’t know about the Master, but most of the Doctor’s attempts at rehabilitation came post Time War, and that was probably more about him being the only other Time Lord left than anything else. Certainly he took plenty of apparently serious shots at destroying him in BG stories. This is part of my reason for mistrusting the “Missy-as-Master” theory: she says that he can be very mean, “but not to me, because he loves me so much.” Certainly, the Doctor was not always so keen to forgive the Master as the Tenth was.

    bivium6 @bivium6

    I agree with you @serahni  I hope there is more to the impossible girl story.  I’m still in the Rose is connected to Clara camp. Clara’s mom died on the same day Rose “disappeared.”

    I loved the way Twelve said Clara didn’t see him, when it was the opposite that Eleven didn’t see Clara when they met, just the other two verisons he knew of her.

    I liked the way we were introduced to Twelve, as if he was translating what a baby says.  The uh, the “not me” one, the “asking questions” one. Names … not my area.  Brings to mind mom, not mom, peasants, big milk thing.

    @juniperfish – I hope you are right about the Valeyard coming somewhere, shouldn’t be ignored.

    @jimthefish  Seventh Doctor sounds good to me. In the Who movie, I think the Tardis had that same almost library feel.

    @arbutus I was struck by the coldness when he left Clara too. Made me think of Eleven leaving Amy in Flesh and Stone. It was a future version that came back to comfort her.

    @stevethewhistle agreed, totally want to know more about the chalk drawings. Seems like it should be easy to use the Tardis to take the tRex home?

    The one thing that really really bugs me is Missy called the Doctor her boyfriend. We spent the whole episode establishing he isn’t that kind of Doctor anymore.

    Anonymous @

    @arbutus quite confused but thinking nonetheless: a student mentioned to me the planet Deva Loka (sic?) from the 5th Dr’s time where the people live in a Paradise. The populace, however, are peaceful (rather than perverse twirling Marys) but they do have recourse to telepathy?

    @juniperfish  yes the valeyard is a striking possibility for either Cap-Doc or Missy. The sisterhood Of Karn have the secret of how to create a Time Lord and the personality/gender which could emerge -apologies, others upthread have referenced this. This could be how Missy was first created and then the result miscarried in some awful way.

    So Missy is a corporeal being but also an ethereal one; having ‘brought’ HFMan back to ‘life’/paradise. Could she be a claricle? Where do they go to ‘die’?

    River’s character is bye bye so it could be Romana as was mentioned by @wolfweed & others many pages ago.

    I still like the Madame Pompadour idea (but that’s my fetish as it can’t be supported). I remembered how she was educated/prepared to be a Mistress from a young age: everyone -the important ones! -were ‘boyfriends’ or her ‘Masters’; although she ‘mastered’ them with incredible techniques  🙂 and renowned abilities in gardening, architecture. She was made a marquise by Louis XV but was educated at a convent where she learned about heaven/paradise….anyhoo, reaching!

    I wonder about going right back to The End of the World and Cassandra who fancied the Doctor and well, combusted…was there something, anything left? Moffat doesn’t generally go and hoover up old ideas (River was someone he wrote and GiFP was wonderfully memorable).

    Then in Planet of the Dead we have Lady Thief who quite fancied the Doctor and is a wealthy woman (again, I presume). But this was a ‘small’ special and not favoured by many/and no …hoovering up of old themes/ideas. So, no go there. Still searching!

    Kindest, purofilion


    Silverman @silverman

    Hi everyone, first post here, so apologies if it’s too long…

    It’s hard to get a bead on how things will be on a Doctor’s first episode, but I liked it, and Capaldi as the Doctor. It still seems to have the same problems though, as I had no problem with Matt Smith in the role, but disliked a lot of the stories due to the style that Moffat has fostered.

    I probably shouldn’t over-exam a sci-fi programme, but the dinosaur irked me for a couple of reasons, and mainly that it presented Vastra as ‘knowing the truth’ that dinosaurs used to be that size…when they weren’t.

    I’m not so familiar with old-Who as I was about 8 when I remember watching Peter Davison in the role – but for Ecclestone and Tennant, Doctor Who used to insert interesting educational facts into the narrative, so kids would be enlightened, albeit as secondary to the narrative, but you’d also find yourself picking things up too. Off the top of my head: facts about Madame de Pompadour, the Koh-i-noor, Charles Dickens, Queen Victoria, Black Holes, etc.

    That seems to have disappeared now as Moffat throws a load of special effects around stories that are all style and no substance.

    Also, the whole of London witnessed a dinosaur! If that happened ‘in real life’ (stay with me on this) we’d know about it now and it would be documented – it’s massive changing of history. The show at least used to keep with the pretense that it was all about ‘our’ timeline, and that when,in past episodes, the extraordinary happened in history,  that only a few characters were witness to it. Think ‘Family of Blood’.

    I still like Madame Vastra et al, but Clara still irritates – mostly as she just doesn’t seem real, just another in a line of flimsily-drawn ‘perfect girl’ characters who have model good-looks, no flaws, and also no connection to a ‘real’ world. Rose and Donna seemed more down-to-earth and relateable. When they were on the Tardis we, the viewer, had our viewpoint of the adventures reflected in them.

    Overall it was ok, and I liked Capaldi – but I would really like a series of single episodes revolving around one story, with just the Doctor and Clara.

    Anonymous @


    The one thing that really bugs me is Missy called the Doctor her boyfriend. We spent the whole episode establishing he isn’t that kind of Doctor anymore.

    I agree. That’s the main reason to think she must be deranged. She has to be making it up, right? She doesn’t even seem like the Doctor’s type. Sure River and Tasha Lem were not perfect angels, but they never gave off creepy vibes like Missy.

    Anonymous @

    @silverman  great first post and welcome. As for RTD putting in pieces of History and helping to educate -I liked it too but, unlike Ayn Rand who believed writers and film makers had a patriarchal role to educate and civilise -mainly to an economic and very right-wing end, I think- I don’t believe that’s a role for Sci-Fi writers at least!

    Though, on that point, look at what Vincent did for children! My own boy loved him and learnt so much about Van Gogh, not to mention Churchill -twice and the Queen of England -thrice!  So the History part is still there. Oh, and the Romans and Cleopatra. The list goes on, Silverman.

    I would have agreed with you about Clara until this episode where she gave an absolutely stellar performance. Wow. She was intrigued, embarrassed, hurt, disputed, criticised; joked with, and then was sentimental, anguished, frightened, lost and betrayed as she saved the Doctor (which he was unaware of) but then felt she lost the Doctor she knew.

    The wonderful conversation (‘you’re great on adrenaline btw’ says the Cap-Doc) Clara had with the HFaced Man was utterly captivating.

    Well, in the end, who really knows about Dinosaurs? -the science is changing and we have some pretty large fossils. In Oz where I live, we’ve seen some recent ‘new’ fossils which suggest some dinosaurs were much bigger than we originally thought.  Also, it’s a sci-fi show (as you said), so I’d agree that if Vastra saw them, we should probably believe her- she’s been right every time!

    Kindest, purofilion



    I probably shouldn’t over-exam a sci-fi programme, but the dinosaur irked me for a couple of reasons, and mainly that it presented Vastra as ‘knowing the truth’ that dinosaurs used to be that size…when they weren’t.

    That was – to me fairly clearly – a joke, partly on the “squabbling couple” them that ran through the episode, but also a tongue-in-cheek meta-comment about what makes good evidence. Vastra was “a little girl” when she last saw one – and everything look bigger when you are little.

    As has been noted upthread, the dinosaur was a reference to Bleak House.

    (I am too long a slave to Buffy to be willing to tolerate anything but an arc-heavy story, but remember that this is a show that has to fill the needs of a very large and diverse constituency.)

    Anonymous @

    @silverman I liked your point about the dinosaur being ‘seen’ and therefore should be ‘documented’ if all of London saw it.

    I think it’s Ed (with ‘great’ eyes and ‘gifts’ them to the Half Face Man) who refers to it as a government ‘plot’: “it’s in the neck, it doesn’t look quite real” (or something very similar) which could be an explanation the rest of London go with, but yes, I see your point. Perhaps others with greater minds than mine can weigh in here? @bluesqueakpip and @arbutus how do we account for a dinosaur that’s not ‘documented’ in Victorian London?

    Thank you. Purofilion

    Anonymous @

    Sorry but who’s MISSY

    Anonymous @

    @silverman  you need go no further than @pedant -his memory about Bleak House up-thread (which I completely forgot; a wonderful tele-series made some years ago co-starring Phil Davis is worth a watch btw), bickering married couples and who sees what in an effort to impress/flirt and play a game of ‘who knows more’ is a more important issue, possibly. Or a side plot.

    Anonymous @

    @tennantlove9090  Missy is the twirling umbrella lady at the end of the episode who is in charge of ‘paradise’.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @bivium6    I’m not convinced that the “my boyfriend” bit is something to be taken literally. I’m also pretty sure that Moffat is not trying to make this easy for us!

    @purofilion    Yes, Deva Loka was from the serial “Kinda”. They were telepathic. There was an evil snake being, called the Mara, that possessed Tegan. So maybe Missy is the Mara?  🙂

    @silverman    Not over-exam a sci-fi show? Where do you think you are? That’s all we do here!  😉 Regarding the arc-issue, I wouldn’t mind a less heavy arc, because I will admit that I prefer the stories to be able to stand alone to a pretty large degree. But if there were none at all, whatever would we do between episodes?

    bivium6 @bivium6

    I hope so @Arbutus


    But how the hell does it fit into a bonkers theory… (replaces tinfoil cap).

    The SS Mdme de Pompadour (ie the ship) is (or thinks it is) 37 when it gets damaged.
    It needs the real Mdme de Pompadour’s head at 37 but doesn’t get it.
    Was its sister ship (the SS Marie Antoinette) also damaged at the same time and succeed in getting her brain??!?

    Thanks for the welcome, and the thought you gave me.  Pompadour was trying to repair the ship, the Antoinette was repairing the droids.

    The clockwork droids failed to retrieve Reinette’s brain at age 37 and shut down, mission failure.  They had opened windows to look for it.  If they had stolen her brain, where they going to fix the ship to fly to the promised land?

    The human droids might have succeeded in acquiring Marie’s when she was guillotined at 37.  But it looks like they came the long way around.  And it stands to reason they did get it(if they needed it like they did Reinette’s), the clockwork droids shut down when they failed, the Antoinette droids are still alive and kicking.

    If the Antoinette droids collected the brain they where sent after, what are they doing?  Why did they have to become more human to get to heaven?  And why does Missy want brains (zombie…)?


    I agree the Doctor doesn’t believe in an afterlife, Ten  in Satan Pit.  “I’ve seen bad gods and demigods and would-be gods. And you know what, out of that whole pantheon, if I believe in one thing, just one, I believe in her.”

    And Eleven in the Pandorica Opens.  “The universe is big, it’s vast and complicated, and ridiculous. And sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles. And that’s the theory. Nine hundred years, never seen one yet, but this would do me.”

    But it is hard to explain how Humpty went from impaled to being in one piece in a different place.  I’m liking the RiverLibrary/Matrix vibe that’s been building here.

    geoffers @geoffers

    @purofilion – it’s great to be seen, again! twas a long, long summer, and i’m glad to have this wonderful program back, and this wonderful forum along with it… 🙂

    @bivium6 @arbutus –  i, too, don’t give much weight to missy’s “my boyfriend.” substitute “the object of my obsession,” instead. i predict that will be closer to the truth, as we find out more about her. she is probably the “egomaniac, needy game-player,” stalker-type. and those types try to live out the fantasies in their own heads…

    which, admittedly, i have fantasies in my head (we all do, i guess), but i don’t try to impose them on reality! lol


    janetteB @janetteb

    Whew so much to catch up on. The “night” shift have been hard at work. (It is after all, a question of perspective.)

    I am wavering towards Missy being an entirely new character partly from a writing perspective. I think post 50th Moffat wants to refresh the show and so is unlikely to rest the story arc upon the resurgence of an overworked villian from the past 50 years. It is time for some new “big bads”. He is however clearly teasing us with the possibility that Missy might be the Master just to fuel our bonkers theorising. I often wonder he he reads through our posts and chuckles to himself.

    @thommck I was interested in your reference to the character “Melissa” from a novelisation which featured clockwork driods. Which story was that?

    @silverman, welcome. On the size of the Dinosaur, It wasn’t stated but it had swallowed a Tardis. Maybe that affected its size. It’s a bit feeble but it kind of works as an explanation for the want of anything better. I do sympathise with your objection to the Dinosaur in the Thames on the grounds that is itsn’t mentioned in history but one, albiet oversized T.Rex splashing about for a day in the Thames I can forgive, but history and I cannot overlook a giant stompy robot crushing half the city. (The Next Doctor)

    I think it was @wolfweed who posted the close up of the newspaper clipping with the references to Rivers and of course the story is centered around the Thames. It seems that River is still a presence though maybe an incorporeal one. I doubt those references are purely coincidental, not this time anyway. It would seem that the historical inaccuracies in the newspaper in Snowmen were but I doubt that detail is something that would be left to the mercy of the props department a second time. Let’s hope at least that Moffat had a hand in it.

    Re’ the discussion about Clara’s reaction to the new face of the Doctor. I think in some way it does reflect the audiences’ sense of loss when one actor leaves and another takes up the baton however we have had months to grow used to the idea of the pending regeneration and we have a familiarity with Peter Capaldi and so high expectations of what he will bring to the role. For Clara the loss is fresh and she has no expectations of what the new regeneration will be like. And to be fair, if she does recall what she saw of his past regenerations while in the time stream then she remembers the horrors of certain past regenerations. For all she knows she might be about to travel with another C.B. (I hope he isn’t lurking on this forum. I know I shouldn’t be so mean but he did commence his tennure in the Tardis by trying to strangle Peri, though I admit he did have cause. That accent….)





    geoffers @geoffers

    @silverman – “I probably shouldn’t over-exam a sci-fi programme, but the dinosaur irked me for a couple of reasons, and mainly that it presented Vastra as ‘knowing the truth’ that dinosaurs used to be that size…when they weren’t.”

    have you considered, and accepted, that the doctor has two functioning hearts? if the sci-fi aspect of the show asks you to accept that (not to mention the tardis, lizard women from the dawn of time, and 10,000 other things), and you do… then an overly large dinosaur should be easy!

    and if you still have trouble with it, we can come up with some (pretty tame, in comparison) bonkers theories as to why the beast is too large. i thought the latest godzilla incarnation was too enormous (steroidal, even), but it didn’t ruin the movie for me! i just chalked it up to “what would have made the movie slightly more awesome? a slightly more believably sized monster.” but, back to the dinosaur, i believe the creature was that big, to appeal to the younger audience, without also scaring the immortal crap out of them, like the smaller, faster, smarter raptors in ‘jurassic park’ may (or may not) have done to me, once upon a time… 🙂

    also, consider that it had to pretty huge to even be able to get a tardis stuck in its throat. otherwise, how else would it have been time-traveled to london? might as well go as big as the budget will allow….


    Anonymous @

    @arbutus yes I’d agree that Missy isn’t really believable with the ‘boyfriend’ deal. But she may believe it as delusional characters do. She’s basically obsessed and sociopathic and has troubling separating herself from him: “maybe I’ll keep it [the accent]”.  For some reason she reminded me of Miss Evangelista -but not for long. Certainly she’s like a St Peter; allowing entrance to paradise but then she wouldn’t be so mad  -but of course, to some, she would be!

    Evs @okies

    Hi all

    just wondering , if Clara’s mum died, who was the woman sitting at the table for Christmas dinner in ToTD?

    janetteB @janetteb

    @Evs Her step-mum. Hence the chilly relationship.



    Evs @okies

    Does anyone else think there could be a link to Missy when the doctor says “I’m not your boyfriend” and Clara thinks he was saying it to her? Like maybe in some regen daze that could be explained later in the series, he was briefly linked to Missy somehow?

    Again, I’m usually wrong about these things.

    janetteB @janetteb

    @okies (Sorry about the misdirection earlier) It is possible that the words were written with a dual meaning in mind. The Doctor, I am certain, meant the words for Clara. The question is, has he actually met Missy before, are they also travelling on different time streams, as with River or is Missy purely dellusional? She appears to exist in a fantastical world.

    Probably not in any way connected but late 18th century France was home to many automata. Victorian London was an age of clocks. I really like the steam punk vibe of it.



    Anonymous @

    It sounds bonkers to me, but the Dinosaur could be MIssy.

    If the cyborg and Missy are inside a mainframe at the end, then it would really be their consciousness we are seeing. That might be why we see a lady, instead of a Dino.



    janetteB @janetteb

    That @barnable is brilliantly bonkers. Well done. I am certain that would account also for why a T Rex splashing about in the Thames does not rate a mention in any reputable history of Victorian London. (Just don’t ask me how or why.)



    deluxescarf @deluxescarf

    Here’s an idea… it seems to me that there might have been a “multiple doctor timeline return thingy” happening while they were under the restaurant.  As he started exiting the room, he was emphatic that he’s been there before and, in general, seemed a bit disconnected.  Understandably so.  We see him go down the hall, wearing his nightdress and smelly coat, and the door closes leaving Clara to fend for herself.  Exactly at the moment that Clara challenges the Doctor, if he really is her Doctor, to be behind her, 12 shows up to grab her hand with confidence and clarity… AND a nice new jacket, shirt and tie.  His personality seemed different too.  When Clara and the Gang return back to the mansion, the TARDIS is gone…  My guess is that 12 returned from some other time to his first day to save Clara and possibly deal with Humpty in a way that only a more settled, composed Doctor could.  (Those are NOT two words I would generally use to describe the Doctor!)   Who knows what he got himself into when he went down that hall… Thoughts?  Plausible?

    FlirtingDinosaur @flirtingdinosaur

    Ok I’m gonna need some help here. Is it really properly established that River’s story is over? I mean, yes, we’ve seen the beginning and the end and some of the middle. But who’s to say that some part of the middle isn’t yet to come. After all she has her own path through time and space, right? And she says to 11 she loves it when he goes all babyface. Is she talking about him not yet knowing who she is or is she talking about his actual face, which brings up the question, who’s the older face she’s used to? It can’t be 10, because she only met him once, at her end, so she hadn’t yet met him when she met 11. And it can’t be anyone before 10, because she never met any of them. Yes she does have pictures of all his faces, but still she wouldn’t be so amused by his young face, if it is the only one she has properly engaged with.. thoughts? corrections? HELP?

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    @flirtingdinosaur I’ve always wondered that and who is to say River really did use all her regenerations healing the Dr of the judas poison. River may not be actually be permanently ensconced in the library mainframe. Given the fact that the mainframe was starting to breakdown until the Dr fixed things by getting the Nas verada (and yes I know I probably mangled the name)and river took his place to stop the self destruct and to let all the saved ppl escape the library. Wouldn’t it be possible that in the long term for the process to have sent her a bit “batty”. Oh let’s be honest here at the moment there’s too many lovely possibilities as to who and what Missy really is. Aargh I think my head is going to implode with all these bonkerish thoughts. I seem to have half a dozen more but just can’t seem to fully formulate them ah well after a few more episodes maybe they will coagulate

    Evs @okies

    @janetteb the dual meaning theory is probably true, but he said to Clara that he wasn’t talking to her. Or that he didn’t mean it for her. Something along those lines.  So I don’t think it was for her. At first I thought he might have been saying it to himself, but now I think it may have been Missy.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @janetteb @okies

    He tells Clara he wasn’t talking to her (re the boyfriend) – he says he was talking about himself ie it’s he who was fantasising (creating a fantasy normality where he is liked and accepted) about being her boyfriend.

    @steve-thorp (good to see you back) Thanks for bringing up all the chalking on the wall… and the floor… I took it that it was much like his speech, just pouring out all over the place, but he could very well have been working something out, like how to get the dino home. (There was something recently where there were “workings” all over a room, but I can’t remember where – anyone else remember?)

    Interesting that in his first task as the Doctor – get the dino back – he fails. Shades of  Ten in the “I’m sorry, so sorry…”?

    Serahni @serahni


    I think the dialogue goes:

    The Doctor: “I’m not your boyfriend, Clara.”
    Clara: “I never thought you were.”
    The Doctor: “I didn’t say it was your mistake.” 
    He most definitely is talking to her.  What he’s saying is that he didn’t mean that SHE thought he was her boyfriend, rather he’s implying that the fantasy existed on his side, as ScaryB says. 🙂

    Anonymous @

    Absolutely @okies (is that correct) or @Evs golly, yep, I’d agree with @serahni about dialogue  -just watched it myself.

    As for the dinosaur (Jenny would say “as to to different, she’s a lizard”) , OK, well Bleak House…hmmm and the Dinosaur as Missy (“my big lady friend: now, don’t get any ideas… I’m not flirting”) as @barnable said: that IS brilliant bonkerising. But possible.

    Kindest, puro.

    Anonymous @

    @deluxescarf -great avatar, superb!  Yes, that is possible. He did seem different. But I wonder if that’s more from Clara’s POV? Did she start to have that faith that I mentioned upthread? Prior, she isn’t really trusting him and yes, once she truly believes (like all fairy tales), he appears and his sartorial attire has improved -he isn’t smelly, he’s (almost but not quite) her Doctor and therefore OK.

    Yes @scaryb he fails right away doesn’t he after that desperate shout/plea across the River and then she combusts. The look on his face. So very sad.

    bivium6 @bivium6

    This is why I love finding a good forum, so many ideas 🙂

    I like that @ScaryB “I’m not your boyfriend…I never said it was your mistake.” Same thing, Missy says she is the Doctor’s girlfriend and the mistake is on her part. The Doctor sees Missy the same way Clara sees the Doctor? Maybe an enemy that is smarter than the Doctor?

    Neat @janetteB I now have to go research that time period. Reinette and Marie where both women(so is Missy…), take a look at important women, technology from that age. It is the Doctors favorite era.

    @ deluxescarf just like when Eleven came back to Amy in Flesh and Stone. I like, the two situations seem very parallel, do you think Moffat would do the same thing twice? We do have don’t blink and don’t breath lol.

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Right this bonkerish thought has been stimulated by the talk that the dinosaur is somehow Missy.
    My thought originally was is it a real dinosaur or a chameleon disgusted tardis especially give rumours around that the master is returning,there are precedents for one tardis being inside another after all especially where the master is involved.

    I then got to thinking about Missy and there being a mental link with the Doctor and suddenly thought could the dinosaur have really been a phsyic projection by missy….

    Uh ho there goes my head again about to explode with wild ideas.

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