Empire of Death

[syzygy @thane16]

Thinking about it more & more, why is Ruby’s mother really pointing? As others have said repeatedly, how on earth could anyone see it and why is she really pointing? If she’s  determined enough to cover herself up, why would she also point? 🤔

I know the answer we’ve been given, but ‘I want to name her Ruby Sunday” doesn’t make much sense.” If she’s aware of the camera then pointing would make less sense.

It’s the dramatic presentation of that scene which concerns….

[syzygy @thane16]

@ps1l0v3y0u

….Linx that I to my theory.”

Yup.

 

[nerys @nerys]

@bunface Oh, I do keep wanting to say that I find the death of death thing intensely maddening. Not only because, as others have said, it’s nonsensical, but beyond that I find any cultural inability to accept death offensive and troubling. So it alarms me that RTD seems to be pushing the idea that we can all live forever, even if he means through imagination and art and memory.

I feel a bit odd chiming in here, given that I am in Canada, refuse to subscribe to Disney+ and seem to be in for a very long wait until DVDs/Blu-rays are released in Region 1. But I read your comment and was instantly reminded of, “Everybody lives, Rose! Just this once, everybody lives!” I think the Doctor grows so weary of his humans dying on him that he can’t help but celebrate when he is able to save them. That is one of my favorite moments of Doctor Who, and is actually the two-parter that made me a fan.

But I take your point that in general, our culture is so distanced from death that we don’t know how to deal with it. Hopefully that’s not RTD’s mindset for Doctor Who. It’s normal to want to avoid death, if we can. But none of us are getting out of here alive, so as unwelcome as death is, we need to come to terms with the fact that dying is as natural as being born. I do like the idea that as long as there is someone to remember us, we live on.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@thane16

I think it was @bunface who suggested the possibility that the woman in the hooded cloak might not have been Ruby’s mother, and that chimes with the direction of my thinking over the past 24 hours or more. It’s a question of assumptions, led in our case by the way the observed facts were presented.

The Doctor, who was the only external witness to events at the church on Christmas eve 2005, arrived when baby Ruby was already lying in front of the church door and the goblins were about to snatch her. He saw a woman in a hooded cape in the distance, walking away, and assumed that a) she was the person who had just abandoned Ruby and b) she was Ruby’s mother. In the introductory scene in The Church on Ruby Road we see a woman in a hooded cape walking towards the church with a baby in her arms, with a voice over by the Doctor telling the story, but what we are seeing is what he assumed had happened, not necessarily a precise record of what did happen.

When the events are seen again in the Time Window, the Doctor is the only one present who was there at any stage of the original proceedings, and he is therefore the only one aware that what they are seeing does not correspond to what he saw originally; this time the woman stops, turns and points, as if she was aware of these spectators from the future. Despite these discrepancies, he still seems to assume that it is Ruby’s mother whose image they are watching

Next consider Sutekh and his preoccupation with the identity of the hooded woman who, following Ruby herself and everyone else, he also assumes is Ruby’s mother. @miapatrick  said this was because he couldn’t see her and I agree, but that it was in more than the literal sense of ‘seeing’. It wasn’t just that the woman’s face was hidden by the darkness and the hood. Maestro could see deep into Ruby, into her soul if you think in those terms, and perceived something very troubling. Sutekh, who was of the same order of being and more powerful, may have looked into Ruby in similar fashion and seen whatever Maestro saw, but I conjecture that when he tried to do the same with the hooded woman he encountered a blank wall. He couldn’t see into her inner self at all.

The hooded woman could have been Ruby’s mother and all the anomalies in what we saw in the Time Window the result of somebody or something messing with memory and/or the VHS  tape, but that leaves a lot of questions unanswered. Consider another scenario. A frightened 15 year old scurries up to the church, leaves her baby and runs off again, hoping that she hasn’t been observed but knowing that the Christmas Eve midnight service is in progress and her baby will soon be found. Between then and the baby being taken into the church, but before any intervention by goblins or the Doctor, something else happened, probably involving the hooded woman who, depending on who is observing/remembering, can seemingly be in two places at once. What that something was, and what exactly it is about Ruby that had Maestro and Sutekh so concerned will be for next year’s  season to resolve – or so I hope. That Ruby will be back is no secret now, though what part she will take in proceedings remains to be seen.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@bunface @nerys @mudlark

Who has, of more recent years anyway, been very reluctant to kill anyone (significant) off, most egregiously with Clara, but also Donna and to some extent, the Ponds.

As soon as we saw Kate L-S dustify followed quickly by the rest of the Unit team, I immediately thought “RTD is going to pull a Last of the Time Lords here”.

I think it’s a shame that the Death of any of the main characters is avoided as it tends to diminish the stakes. Having said that, it would have to be used sparingly.

I recall an expression: You die twice. Once when you actually die, and the second time you die is the last time anyone says your name. I like this. We’re all stories in the end…

It is seeming more and more plausible that the hooded woman is not Ruby’s teenage mother. In that case, I wonder if the hooded figure is actually trying to protect Ruby from something, maybe Sutekh, maybe another threat as yet unseen?

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@mudlark

After reading your post, I am reminded of my initial response to the episode–that perhaps we should rebrand the subtitle of the Forum to: “Theories even more dramatically satisfying than what’s actually happening”

[WolvesAreRunning @wolvesarerunning]

Yes, I like the idea that the woman under the hood isn’t Ruby’s mother. Maybe it’s Mrs Flood? When she points to the sign for Ruby Road she’s telling them where to find her – ‘I live on Ruby’s Road’.

(Although even if that turns out to be true, I still think it’s a mistake to conclude a series in such an unsatisfying manner.)

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@whohar

I think it’s a shame that the Death of any of the main characters is avoided as it tends to diminish the stakes.

Yes. After what RTD was saying in the build up to the episode I was fully convinced that someone we, the audience cared about was going to die – and I had the box of tissues to hand. When absolutely everyone and everything was dusted off so early on in the proceedings my heart sank, because it was so obvious that such a state of affairs was going to be reversed. In any case, whereas the death of one person hits home and stirs the emotions, even if that person is fictional, the death of billions is too overwhelming to register at the same gut level. If death is to feature in a drama it should mean something, and that applies even if it is a science/fantasy centred on a death-bringing god. Anything else is a refusal to confront a fundamental reality.

Typing that I was suddenly reminded of a long ago incident when my mother asked my six year old little brother what he had done that day at school. My brother replied that they had been playing cowboys and Indians. Q. ‘Were you a cowboy or an Indian’?  A. ‘I was Jesus’. Q. Why? A. ‘Because when people were killed Jesus had to make them alive again’.

[syzygy @thane16]

I’m trying to link this -anyway  please, please FIND this and read it (I’m actually saying thank fuck). It’s from bleedingcool.com “What you missed, got wrong and much more” article. Someone else can probably link it. Courtesy of a pedantic friend.

it’s probably for us… 😎

[WhoHar @whohar]

https://bleedingcool.com/tv/doctor-who-empire-of-death-what-you-missed-got-wrong-much-more/

Link ^^^ @thane16 and for anybody else obvs.

 

@mudlark

I was Jesus’. Q. Why? A. ‘Because when people were killed Jesus had to make them alive again’.

Cowboys and Indians and Jesus. Now there’s a movie.

[syzygy @thane16]

@juniperfish yes, the article mentions Peter Pan

– also makes it clear the wish is over (the snow won’t necessarily be happening again)

-RTD is aware of other Disney shows….
-spoons

-and, ordinary people. They MATTER.

[syzygy @thane16]

Thanks @whohar !

[syzygy @thane16]

@mudlark despite the 2 women, I do think that there won’t necessarily be a return to R’s mum. Pretty sure Rus would say it’s all tied up -theme over slavish addiction to plot.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@thane16 @mudlark

there won’t necessarily be a return to R’s mum.

I agree. But, @mudlark‘s forensic analysis strongly suggests something is going on. The scene in TCoRR is different to that on TLoRS, so it’s plausible that something manifested in the time window version of that scene. Possibly (very) bad, possibly friendly to Ruby.

So, no to a return to Ruby’s mum, but yes to a return to the hooded figure. Who that is (Mrs Flood, per @wolvesarerunning ‘s suggestion, or someone/thing else), is still open to bonkers theorising (hurrah!). And, as to what this new character actually wants…

[VickyMallard @vickymallard]

Me again and sorry for being lightyears behind on all the theories and loose ends…

So Sutek – the god of death – is the “boss” of this whole pantheon of other gods, including Maestro as god of music and the Toymaker as god of games? Is he “the one who waits”? And does that also make him the boss of Beep the Meep? How does that creature fit into the picture?

And has Sutek now been destroyed forever? Or was that just this particular physical form and he now just needs a few million years to recover?

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@whohar in this light of this I do have a first Pratchett recommendation: going postal. It’s very much on this theme.

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@vickymallard I don’t know if it’s misdirection, and there is something else coming.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@vickymallard

Confused? The clever money is on misdirection.

To start with, in Pyramids of Mars (very good classic Who story), Sutekh is not supernatural or divine but a mad alien with enormous mental powers. He doesn’t get chucked in the Time Vortex but trapped in a time corridor where he (presumably) lived out his extended lifespan. RTD would seem to be playing fast and loose with Whotinuity. And, as a rule, he and The Doctor are quite atheistic.

A lot of people object to the ‘everyone everywhere dies and comes back to life’ device. It felt like a game being rebooted from a save point. Or else it’s all nonesense.

There are issues with UNIT’s time window. Hoodie woman jumps around. 73 yards crops up again. No one was convinced by The Ruby Road sign.

It’s also suspected, ever since Newton and ‘Mavity’, that we’re seeing an alternate universe… could it be artificial intelligence (a reoccurring theme) and virtual reality?

So, there’s a possibility that we’re being played by RTD with The Pantheon. The real story is about orphans. Some people didn’t like that Ruby was so ‘ordinary’ (and RTD played us again) but it’s this that turns the theme back on the Doctor: he is ordinary too, in that he has been forced to think about his mum and dad. Where is his family? So, Susan, River (interestingly last seen trapped in a virtual reality), Tecteun/Awsok, Jenny maybe!

Could the designer of this speculative virtual reality want the same information? Some characters in the series could be emblematic of the Doctor’s past. So, Roger ap William. Who is called Roger ap William? The name is clearly significant and the meaning worth checking.

As to who the designer is? Is he ‘The Boss?’ Remember the mysterious face in the Doctor’s scan in Rogue? This would seem to be an actor who has played the Doctor both in an audio story and a charity special. But he was also another important character during series 7: the end of 11’s tenure. How could he end up as a face of the Doctor?

There are other speculations concerning Mrs Flood and an ABSENT incarnation of the Doctor the Rogue scan… perhaps that face is yet to come. We haven’t much information at this point.

Not ALL of this can be moonshine. But don’t ask me which bits. The Pantheon probably is.

[syzygy @thane16]

@mudlark @whohar @ps1l0v3y0u @vickymallard  et. al

I appreciate the theories but I wonder to what extent it’s likely the Christmas episode (or Eps 1-2, next season) will address issues of the Position of Pointing Person (PPP)  particularly the differences between the first & last episodes under forensic analysis? 😁

If it turns out R’s birth mum isn’t ‘ordinary’ it might cut into RTD’s socio-political vision of the Doctor’s companions as @juniperfish & others have eloquently described. I guess the same goes for R herself & if the PPP is shown to be an overlay figure thus accounting for subtle changes in directional shooting etc., I’d question RTD’s marriage to his core assumptions or whether he’d undercut the dogma. I recall Joss Whedon discussing the importance of not hanging a serious plot point over a season’s break as it dilutes its power.

Elsewhere I read a theory about R’s snow. It suggests Sutekh is confounded by the Doctor’s concern for R’s cosmic potential, so much so, that suspicions cause him to “shadow her continuously as he’s wary of R’s mother’s uber-power & also thinks R’s a dodgy being.”

He cannot let R die until this mystery’s solved so extends a protective corridor around her. Key to understanding this, is Sutekh’s presence can sometimes be discerned where there is ice: when Mel was infiltrated, Sutekh “concentrated his powers to the extent that the area around her (& others also) became intensely cold, thus whenever R is anxious & in danger, there’s snow….” Unless, as others pointed out, in this complication of Mrs Flood (water, ice…) there’s a snowy twist.

Could it be that TenDoc’s assertion of the supernatural caused mere wishes to be supersized, leading to a TL resurrection or re-creation of another god entirely: Tialoc or Enlil… -& who recognises a tardis?

Another idea is whether R’s dad could be involved in a way that’s….irregular? But again a dilution of RTD’s core theme.

Puro.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@thane16

I really don’t know about pointing woman. It could be anyone, within reason.

The snow could be explained by ‘the face’ in the scan. Or that connection is a red herring. I hope it’s not Sutekh because… he was a bit ridiculous wasn’t he? Is that the new Disney paradigm? Or was he always a paper… bandog? Happy to see the back of him.

It’s odd that this story should be SO seeded with clues. Actually… though it keeps us happy, it’s a bit annoying now. Unless it’s really just us being very sad.

Mind you the tardis generated crack in reality was held over for 2 whole seasons. And still not explained.

Any thoughts re the ‘SN’ connection (I put it on BBC spoilers for some reason). If it’s a return to Cartmel 1.0 then a significant Ruby really doesn’t make much sense. And why would you back track?

Though, there again, Ace WAS significant, wasn’t she?

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@thane16 one chance is – The Doctor is ordinary. Like Ruby, as in, normal parents, normal baby – for wherever he comes from. He grew up in an elite. He turned out to be the blueprint of the elite. But he’s average for his natal race.

and yet, if some of them turn up – oh he’s extraordinary now. All the things he’s done and the people he’s met. He could literally be the runt of the litter, abandoned, but he’s… the Doctor. And he’s special for the same reason Ruby is. He’s kind, he strives for goodness, he wrestles with his demons, he loves.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@thane16

I do think that there won’t necessarily be a return to R’s mum. Pretty sure Rus would say it’s all tied up -theme over slavish addiction to plot.

I didn’t mean to imply that there would be a return to the subject of Ruby’s birth mother. That plot line has indeed been brought to an appropriate and satisfactory conclusion If Louise Miller appears at all in any episodes next season it will be simply as a member of Ruby’s extended family. On the other hand, as  @whohar  said, we have been left with a number of questions to which in my opinion we have not yet been given satisfactory answers. If all we have been shown in this last episode of the season is supposed to be all that there is to know on the mystery of Ruby Sunday, then I’m inclined to see that as a failure on the part of RTD. He has set us puzzles and raised expectations and then not fully delivered, or what he has delivered contains lacunae and is not entirely coherent.

Let’s start with The Devil’s Chord: Maestro saw a hidden song (Carol of the Bells) deep inside Ruby’s soul then said, ‘How can a song have such power? And power like Him’. The Doctor asked ‘Who?’  to which Maestro replied, ‘The Oldest One, on the night of her birth. He can’t have been there’.

Sutekh was The One Who Waits; if he was also the Oldest One, that’s a very grand promotion for someone who started out as a psychopathic Osiran, extremely powerful and extremely long lived but ultimately mortal, even if subsequently he managed to acquire immortality and accumulate even greater power while hitching a ride on the Tardis. If Sutekh, simply by having been lurking nearby in the Tardis, had become entangled with the song and somehow imprinted in the soul of the baby lying at the church door, that means Ruby could be said to have carried a seed of death within her, but then so, in a sense, do all living things. It’s a consequence of being born.  So why did Maestro tell the Doctor, ‘This creature (Ruby) is very wrong’ ? And if the power of the Oldest One is indeed somehow contained in the song in her soul and was enough to worry Maestro, doesn’t that mean that there is something extraordinary about Ruby, despite her ordinary origins?

Then there are are the discrepancies shown in the Time Window, which have already been extensively discussed.  It could perhaps be argued that the hooded woman, whether or not Ruby’s mother, had originally stopped and pointed before the Doctor arrived on the scene, and that the sequence of events was being jumbled up and mashed together, causing the Doctor to say that his ‘memory kept changing, time kept changing’, but that doesn’t explain the air of mystery surrounding the woman. Ruby asked why they couldn’t see her properly, even when she was close, and the Doctor thought it was more than just a glitch in the image, it was as if she was shadowed. With hindsight we might conclude that it was Sutekh doing the shadowing, but if so he would seem to have been obstructing and frustrating his own purpose.

I simply suggested a hypothetical scenario such as might be a basis for further development next season and provide satisfactory answers to all the threads seemingly left hanging.

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@thane16

It took me a while to compose the above, and in the meantime you and others have been continuing the discussion and to some extent overtaken me. I will  read and catch up and give everything due consideration, but it is late here and I’m not sure my constitution can stand up to many more late nights.

[syzygy @thane16]

@mudlark -ah yes, no, I understood (a tad late) but I’m not sure that PPP is going to be any different to RTD’s original intention. It would be interesting if there was a different configuration.

@miapatrick. Absolutely. I wholeheartedly concur. & I think that RTD explained, somewhere, that the hooded woman was “shadowed by time…..?”

Mudlark. Maestro is wary: “she’s very wrong.” Is this significance that the Doctor spoke of in the finale related to Sutekh’s attachment to Ruby? So Maestro describes her as “very wrong” but is that because the Doctor is perhaps obsessed with her & this perplexes Sutekh?

And Ruby’s determination to locate her mum is…..enormous ….to the point of obsession… where she can’t function at all. Except none of that’s true. So, yes, I’m a bit stumped. But we know that RTD is interested in theme over plotting & this show comes with acres of backstories, cruft & continuity issues as well as obstacle courses…. Maybe this season was exactly as it’s supposed to be?

But as you said IS the One Who Waits the same as the Oldest One? Is it Mrs F?

@ps1l0v3y0u I think you’ll find the Tardis crack was explained? It was the angry TL’s who’d been cup-of-souped at the ‘side’ of the universe & were calling to get out….😄

As to the SN connection ….I haven’t read that post yet. Though I’m not sure what SN means -unless it was another, nearby also-voiced nasal consonant? 😀

Yes, backtracking to R & even that scene…R’s mystery bracketed the entire season.  Given that R was peculiar to the Doctor, her magical mystery tour is what drove the season so if she’s back then it has to be = mystery + twist.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@miapatrick

 I do have a first Pratchett recommendation: going postal.

Much obliged.

[WhoHar @whohar]

For all the ones who wanted / predicted a return of Susan:

https://youtu.be/AgpCX1bnOVk

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@thane16

the crack was utilised by the TL’s but it was caused by the tardis exploding, but what blew up the tardis?

Unless that was the universe collapsing when the Doctor went in the Pandorica (although he came straight out again)

Never mind

Not sure if it’s relevant, but the working title of 1988’s Silver Nemesis was The Harbinger, a Cartmel plan story big on Rassilon and Omega history.

I notice the Harriet had her mits all over the tardis and, when she was kicked out, it all went south for Sutekh.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u @thane16

the tardis exploding

This would be an exploding TARDIS which caused Big Bang 2, that Sutekh somehow survived. The more you think about EoD, the less sense it makes.

I’ve heard a couple of RTD interviews where he basically says that the script was written for the internet age.  i.e. to drive speculation and bonkers theorising on sites like these. So, presumably, we are complicit in this mess. He also stated that there was a “complete narrative collapse” in EoD (the bit where the Doctor and Ruby are transported from 2046 and back to present day Unit HQ when Harriet pulls a lever in the TARDIS. Noting that the Doc and Ruby aren’t in a TARDIS at that point) Further, there is an RTD explanation for the cloak – it was “time shielding her” whatever that means. RTD has really dropped the ball here.

I’m leaning a bit towards the following re Ruby now:

1. The hooded figure is Ruby’s guardian in the literal sense (i.e. not her mother) and maybe a higher-order being.

2. Alien Life Form Garnet(t) aka Ruby’s father, is the extraordinary one.

Of course, Alf could also be the hooded figure. I can just see it now:

EXT. OUTSIDE THE PUB ON RUBY ROAD – NIGHT

The hooded figure walks towards Ruby, stops then slowly pulls down the hood, revealing Garnet

GARNET

I am your father.

FADE TO BLACK

[Charlie Cook @cookgroom]

X

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar

Complete Narrative Collapse sounds a bit like theoretical physics. But the world’s insane and wonks are to blame anyway!

The things is, to check the Harriet incident I’d have to rewatch EoD again… and I don’t really want to. The acid test.

H.Arbinger is at the controls. Was she running the VR? Is this a simulation designed to reveal… a bit like Extremis? Fear didn’t work in The Confession Dial… maybe love and longing might? So are there ‘good guys’ obscuring information in The Time Window?

nb Silver Nemesis was a rather silly story (I’ve never manged all of it) featuring a Gallifreyan statue made from a living metal created by Rassilon and Omega (I think). This is coveted by neo-nazis (tsk they get everywhere) echoing occultists’ obsession with The Spear of Destiny (not Kirk Brandon’s band)

Roger… Hrōþigēraz

χrōþi = renown

gār = spear

Now…
Alien Life Form Garnet! Til Death Us Do Part. Can you imagine John Bishop returning to be called a thievin scouse get? I wonder if there’s a mischievous meta comment there concerning John Cleese’s slightly clueless comments about Alf and the compromises he had to make to scrape his shekels together.

[Cath Annabel @cathannabel]

@whohar These two points chime with what I’ve been thinking.

1. The hooded figure is Ruby’s guardian in the literal sense (i.e. not her mother) and maybe a higher-order being.

It makes no sense for the hooded figure to be Louise, as many have pointed out (and not just because of the pointing out). Are we sure the figure is female? I’d have to look again.

2. Alien Life Form Garnet(t) aka Ruby’s father, is the extraordinary one.

Indeed, because after all, we only know half of Ruby’s origin story. Who knows whether Garnet(t) is ALF, or somehow extraordinary?

 

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u

Complete Narrative Collapse sounds a bit like theoretical physics.

Yes. Or a New Wave band.

Spear of Destiny

That’s a somewhat left-field 80s reference, blimey. And the related band Theatre of Hate. Liberator – their most famous song and the ship in Blake’s 7. The Beeb should reboot that. Sorry, I’ve gone off on several tangents there.

Also, did I imagine it, or was there a reference to Sapphire and Steel in the EoD dialogue somewhere. (I know you are not going to rewatch it. Tbh I’ve not watched any of this season more than once. That’s telling in itself.)

[syzygy @thane16]

@ps1l0v3y0u the Tardis was exploded by the Silence effectively implanting this in Dr Song’s mind (at that point relatively early in their I hate you/I love you relationship). 🙂

Even in the Tardis itself, in The Pandorica Opens, River says over & over “I’m sorry my love” as it begins to explode causing a detonation event across time and space which naturally the Doctor fixes IMMEDIATELY. This is what he always does …. So that also explains, narratively and continuitively (!) why Doc Gatwa can fix All Bad And Evil Death in Empire of Death, speedily.

😲 😉

[WhoHar @whohar]

@cathannabel
I’m just hoping there is something else, and those options seem to be the best bet (to me anyway). Although, if Alf is extraordinary, then RTD has just ripped off the Rey story from the Star Wars sequels.

My fear is that, after the let down that was EoD, I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if the hooded one, and Ruby’s father, are never mentioned again.

[syzygy @thane16]

I’ve  watched a lot of this season several times -Rogue was fabulous as was the penultimate episode @whohar but no, I didn’t get the reference myself -funnily enough I’m no proper fan of Sci Fi: Blake’s 7  I tried once or twice. Though I DID catch Foundation (big fan of books and 2021-24 series).
@cathannabel indeed. I welcome the Garnett.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@thane16

Exploding Tardis. That long night in Darrilium must have flown.

‘You fly the tardis with the handbrake on!’

’You collapsed the Universe and wasn’t there when your own mother was shot by a replica of your own dad!’ (Note to self: send another crate of paranoid psychotic serial killer blood to Paternoster Square. I’m forever in your debt Vash!)

’I hate you!’

’You used to. I blame the chin.’

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar

SoD… I mean the actual Roman lance from Golgotha.

Not sure what Kirk was thinking of… still Skids, Joy Division, New Order….

Actually, not sure RTD wants to reference it, exactly. Pretty sure he had another pointy thing in mind when saddling Rog with his unfeasible Norman handle. But, yes, Rog was a crypto fascist if not a neo nazi.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u

I mean the actual Roman lance from Golgotha.

The Lance. Understood. Apparently there are a couple of them still floating around. One in Vienna, and another one somewhere in Europe I think.

Lots of religious artefacts all over the place, and all 100% genuine of course.

I’m not sure ap William (= Son of William I found out) is going to be significant going forward. To quote another 80s band “William, it was really nothing”.

And I don’t think VR as such (been done too recently in Who) but some sort of altered reality, or blend of reality and fantasy is definitely on the cards.

[WolvesAreRunning @wolvesarerunning]

Thanks for the link to the article @whohar and @thane16

It was a good read. I like the info on the memory tardis, and thought it was a good idea that opens up lots of possibilities for the writers.

There are a couple of points in the article I don’t agree with though. Firstly, the bit about the snow. ‘Magic realism’ is not an explanation, it’s a genre. Just like if Ruby had repeated visions of her death which were never explained, you couldn’t just say ‘Tragedy’. It’s a story, not a university thesis! But this isn’t a criticism of RTD, because I think he’s probably saving the explanation for a more appropriate time of year. I can just imagine the Doctor and Ruby walking through the snow in the opening scene of the Christmas Special. Then they go indoors… and it’s still snowing. That’s how they realise the Ruby mystery hasn’t been solved by finding her birth mother. After all, as other’s have said – the dad’s name is Garnett, and maybe that’s who’s under the hood (I’m hedging my bets here – I went with Mrs Flood earlier!)

But my bigger issue with the article was the assumption that people are disappointed by the mum’s reveal because she’s ‘ordinary’. That’s not the problem at all. The problem is that the show itself repeatedly said there’s something unusual about Ruby and the person under the hood. The hidden song, the snow, the hidden face, the fact she could travel back in time to warn her past self. You can’t just sweep all that under the carpet without an explanation. And even if you did, what would the message actually be? That Ruby is normal because she’s not normal? Surely that makes about as much sense as defeating death with death!

But again, I don’t think that’s what’s actually going on. I think there will be further revelations. I just wish that some of them had made it into the series’ finale!

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar

I suppose VR is just another way of saying ‘l don’t really like this story, Russ.’

relics… The Black Adder had Edmund, as Archbishop of Canterbury, claiming that holy fingers only came in packs of ten. Though clearly these included thumbs, which some devotees find unacceptable.

If we’re trading Smith titles, Chris Packham stylee, I think you’ll find Russ may have to admit ‘I Started Something I Couldn’t Finish.’

Otherwise William… the helm of decision, desire… ok, I’ll shut up.

[WhoHar @whohar]

ps1l0v3y0u

I think you’ll find Russ may have to admit ‘I Started Something I Couldn’t Finish.’

Aha!

Well I did have a Panic before EoD as I’d thought Please Please Let Me Get  What I Want

And then I watched EoD and thought Heaven Knows I’m Miserable Now. Buy then I thought What Difference Does it Make?

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

Have had a couple of days to reflect on this–ie, on the question of how a run of pretty good stories  that seeded a range of potential future resolutions crashed and burned so catastrophically with the last instalment.

The only way I can describe it is that I think it was a case of RTD2 wanting to have his cake and eat it too. I have the impression that he approached everything with the assumption that Ruby would turn out to be an ordinary girl, but that he thought it would be “clever” to seed the stories with hints and questions that captured the imagination of the viewers like us, but at the end, it would turn out to be what he had intended from the beginning: a simple tale of an ordinary girl searching for, and finding, her missing mother. If so, I doubt that the viewers (us) have ended up feeling that approach has been as successful  as I suspect he feels about himself. In fact, I suspect that many of us feel that to some extent, we have been “played” and are left clutching at straws (or the one remaining straw–Mrs Flood) that next year’s will offering will give us what we believed we were being offered this year…until we got to “Empire of Death”.

Am I being too harsh?

 

 

 

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@blenkinsopthebrave

 I suspect that many of us feel that to some extent, we have been “played” and are left clutching at straws (or the one remaining straw–Mrs Flood)… Am I being too harsh?

In one sense, that’s fair – and interestingly, the final season of Moffat and Gatiss’ BBC Sherlock did the same thing. Created a puzzle it did not cash, which not only disappointed a lot of fans, but also (and far worse) made them feel they were being sneered at.

Engaged fans love a puzzle and a bunch of clues along the way, but I think the above writers’ mistake is to think it’s a game of chess played against sleuthing fans, and the writer “wins” if the speculating audience is fooled/ wrong-footed. Instead, I think speculating fans want a collaborative game with, where the clues should make sense and it should be possible to figure out (at least some of) it along the way. Some misdirection is absolute fun and fair game but no one wants to look at the fallen chips and think – that was pure gobbledygook.

However, to be fair to RTD2 – Sue Tech = Sutekh – some of the sleuthing audience did guess the Osiran was making a return ahead of time, because the clues ran true, such as Ruby being shown a desolate future-London by Gatwa’s Doctor – the world if Maestro won (in The Devil’s Chord) being a clue-mirroring of Sarah-Jane being shown a desolate 1980s UK, by the Fourth Doctor, if Sutekh won, in The Pyramids of Mars. And indeed, the pyramid shaped trap Rogue puts the Doctor into and the bird-headed Chuldur as echoes of Egyptian zoomorphic deities.

Also to be fair to RTD2, there are plenty of unsolved mysteries which we may well be returning to later:

a) The Master trapped in the gold tooth, and the red-finger-nailed hand which picked him up

b) The Carol of the Bells inside Ruby and the Ruby-induced snow. Both really do seem designed for a Christmas episode, and as everyone has already started speculating (love “Alien Life-Form” Garnett) just because Ruby’s birth Mum is wonderfully ordinary doesn’t mean we know everything about Ruby yet

c) The 73 yards perception filter  – something is just out of sight – it feels like it, doesn’t it?

d)  Mrs. Flood, indeed

e) The butterfly effect of “mavity” and the salt-line at the end of the universe

f) A universe in which memory can manifest materially – Ruby’s snow, the Memory TARDIS – that is new for the Whoniverse

g) Couple that with Kate Lethbridge-Stewart in 73 Yards saying “We’re the Unified Intelligence Taskforce, created to investigate the extraterrestrial and, more and more, the supernatural. Things seem to be turning that way these days…. We have telepathic dampeners, mesmeric shielding and necklaces of silver and salt in case of witchcraft.” That’s new – since when did UNIT exist in a world investigating witchcraft and the supernatural?

So, I feel inclined to trust in RTD2 that we’re not being sneered at, and there are wonders yet to come.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@blenkinsopthebrave @juniperfish

 

Am I being too harsh?

 

I’d say not. Your assessment seems spot on to me and has been echoed in RTD’s own comments.

I’ve deliberately avoided any pre-show pronouncements by the DW team, as RTD has a habit of saying things that don’t pan out on screen.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@juniperfish @blenkinsopthebrave

Really good summary.

I think the above writers’ mistake is to think it’s a game of chess played against sleuthing fans, and the writer “wins” if the speculating audience is fooled/ wrong-footed.

I tend to agree, although I do have some sympathy with the writers. I remember submitting a script and the main comment that came back was that I didn’t give the reader enough to work with. i.e. I had deliberately left information out of the script in order to not give the game away. My next draft felt, to me at least, to offer up very obvious clues and, again from my perspective, ruined the mystery. By draft 963, I’d managed to find a better way to seed clues through the narrative.

not only disappointed a lot of fans, but also (and far worse) made them feel they were being sneered at

There is definitely a number of fans that feel this way. Unfortunately, they are also using their displeasure to beat the show over un-related items. Words such as Woke, DEI and the fact the Doctor is “too” gay appear all over t’internets. And the glee at the ratings (which are trending down) is palpable. It’s depressing.

I do hope the dad is actually called Alf. I think the Ruby-Garnet(t) may be something too.

 

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar @juniperfish @blenkinsopthebrave

It’s not ‘sneering’ really. The obvious negative comments are of a predictable flavour from people who sign up specifically to be negative. Are they bothered about Who’s labyrinthine continuity? I could be very sneery there… no they’re not for a moment. But we are. Maybe it’s not someone sneering, but us cringing. A bit.

But we like to speculate and I think RTD likes this game too. Does it make for good art? Let’s face it, Sutekh and The Beatles were both woefully realised. Susan Triad is still very weird. What is the cup of tea about? Well, actually I have a theory there…

You know I have theories. If they’re not borne out that’s fine so long as the art gets better. I don’t mean Sutekh or The Beatles. Who has always been riven by production decisions: kids show or serious sci fi; showrunners mates or clueless neophytes; po faced history or bug eyed monsters; safe boring soap or schlocky horror; implied sex or Arkela?

Zchib’s art was pretty bad: he got a number of those calls wrong, or they were out of his hands. Moffat’s issues in 2017 were something else, I think illustrated by ‘Douglas Is Cancelled’… NOT on the BBC! You would think RTD is under a brand new Disney yoke; perhaps he’s signalling, ‘I know you’re still out there. Just trying to make this work, guys.’

Well… eps 3-6 (of the 8) were fine. Great even. Let’s hope we get a Moffat written seasonal special as good as those, and 8 more in the same vein.

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

I just realised (and apologies if someone has already pointed it out) that when Rose looks into the heart of the TARDIS in The Parting of the Ways and scatters the warning “BAD WOLF” all over the universe… we can now read that as a warning about Sutekh, which the Doctor completely failed to spot for several regenerations!

RTD must have been so delighted with himself for this piece of retroactive continuity – I’m certainly tickled by it.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@juniperfish

To be a warning about Sutekh it would need to be DAFTJACKAL surely?

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@ps1l0v3y0u  @juniperfish

To be a warning about Sutekh it would need to be DAFTJACKAL

Or even more to the point, MAD JACK 😉

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@mudlark @juniperfish

Not so much Badwolf as Madjack??

As good as any observation.

Though Sutekh went nowhere near Tardis or Time Vortex but was trapped in a space time portal for the rest of his natural life, because he wasn’t the messiah but a naughty little doggie. So, it doesn’t really matter what Rose said.

[Author]

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