Heaven Sent

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  • #48024
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    heaven-sent

    A fantasticly gripping episode. Following directly on from ‘Face the Raven’, the Doctor has been teleported to a very strange place – a castle that changes form. And he is not alone.

    Trapped in a world unlike any other he has seen, the Doctor faces one of the greatest challenges of his many lives. And he must face it alone.

    Pursued by the fearsome creature known only as the Veil, he must attempt the impossible. If he makes it through, Gallifrey is waiting…

    Written by Steven Moffat and directed by Rachel Talalay this is, boldly, more-or-less a single-hander for Capaldi and it works beautifully. There’s plenty here to chew on during the week ahead. And Capaldi deserves awards for this.

    #48037

    *Faints*

    #48038
    KingBoru @kingboru

    Oh my god.

    #48039
    Delta @delta

    What did I just watch?
    This is a terrible story that is ridiculous.
    We can’t even call The Doctor good as by the end,
    He seems to be willing to commit genocide, if you take the final scene into consideration.
    What were they thinking when thy wrote this?

    #48040

    @delta

    He seems to be willing to commit genocide, if you take the final scene into consideration.

    There is absolutely no basis for that assertion.

    Anyhoo anyone who stayed on the the teaser TREAD VERY CAREFULLY.

    #48041
    KingBoru @kingboru

    They were answering age old questions about why the Doctor originally decided to run away from Gallifrey. Best episode I’ve seen in a very long time.

    #48042
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    OK, so, before it starts:

    Me: ‘Apparently there’s some weird continuity thing with his trousers’. (I couldn’t really explain that to the family, and it didn’t come up in this episode anyway.)

    During:

    He’s in the confession dial! He’s in the confession dial!’ (Family didn’t remember what the confession dial was, but took my word for it.’

    Writing in the grave ‘I’m in 12.’ Me: HE’s 12. Which stands. She’s in his head.

    Given that it was a substance harder than diamonds could he not have been whacking it with the spade? The eternity sequence was beautiful.

    And the whole thing was very Ian Banks. I’d say Ian M Banks, but actually the two I first read and favourite of his science fiction are ‘The Bridge’ and ‘Walking on glass’. I don’t know if my mother and boyfriend enjoyed it much, and I’m sorry and concerned about that. But I loved it.

    #48043
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @delta- that the doctor was willing to commit genocide- that was the premise right at the beginning of the reboot.

    #48044
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @KingBoru- though the fact that he left because he was scared touches on what he was saying in- was in the drums of war- about looking into the thingy (its not an episode I chose to rewatch) and running. The master looked into it and went mad.

    #48045
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    O M G

    #48046
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    Bloody hell!

    Now, as high concept Episodes go, the Doctor gets condemned to hell for an eternity and riffs on the torment of Tantalus is pretty strong stuff.

    It was an astonishing piece to watch. Lots of callbacks to the Moff era in general, but an awful lot of that surrealness that stuff like Mind Robber, Deadly Assassin and Kinda could generate. I can’t think of any other show that would contemplate doing something like this. My jaw actually sagged when the meaning of the Skulls became clear.

    And to borrow an idea from Sherlock – the Doctors mind palace is a deathtrap filled fortress. Of course that makes sense.

    I still can’t quite get over that. Oh, and Gallifrey!

    #48047
    KingBoru @kingboru

    @miaoatrick but was he scared of himself? And what about the master? Did the Master see The Doctor, and became mad because of it, where he couldn’t make up his mind whether he wanted to love him or hate him? Or did the Master see something else entirely? It answers a lot of questions that have been around for as long as the reboot, but it leaves even more unanswered.

    #48048
    Delta @delta

    Listen, the premise is solid, but the cloning and the million,million
    Corpses sort of mess the story up.
    Also, this isn’t the Doctor anymore, it’s just a clone.
    On that note, how can Gallifrey just be existing billions of years in the future.
    By the way, The Hybrid is actually in doctor who in several forms:
    Dalek Zeg, Dalek Cann, and any of the Daleks from the season opener.

    #48049
    Delta @delta

    @miaotrick, the doctor wasnt responsible for anything genocidal,as the Day of the Doctor shows.

    #48050
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Wow – I loved this episode.

    Capaldi was really marvellous in this extended riff on Hamlet’s famous soliloquy, his sticky-insecty frock-coated Twelve enacting the madness of mourning, just like the Prince of Denmark. That determined deductive mind of the Doctor’s, fueled by grief, despair and rage, on a mission to punch through time itself.

    I thought the musical score was beautiful. @puroandson you can tell us more, puro.

    Holy cow, that must have been pretty scary for the younger audience though – a lake of the Doctor’s own skulls?

    Does the last part count as a preview and so should be discussed in BBC approved spoilers, or is it part of this episode @craig? There’s a lot to say, but it rather relies on that end-segment.

    While I wait for that answer – what?! @phaseshift – I missed the costume designer for the Smithy era confirming that they were playing with red-shift and blue-shift in relation to the red and blue bow-ties. Not that I believe creative confirmation is the end-point of interpretation, the so-called “definitive” take, because once you loose a text upon the world, it belongs to the audience, to make of it what they will, BUT, I will have to pour myself a small congratulatory something 🙂

    #48051

    @delta

    Listen,

    Yes, boss.

    the premise is solid, but the cloning and the million,million
    Corpses sort of mess the story up.

    It wasn’t cloning, it was restoration from a backup (and idea very familiar to fans of Ian M Banks and quite low-tech to both Gallifrey and Karn, I’d suggest).

    Also, this isn’t the Doctor anymore, it’s just a clone.

    Nope-eroonie. See above.

    On that note, how can Gallifrey just be existing billions of years in the future.

    We are half way through a two parter (or two-thirds a three-parter, if you like).

    Perhaps wait until the story is told. ‘Cos I’m will to bet that will be addressed.

    By the way, The Hybrid is actually in doctor who in several forms:
    Dalek Zeg, Dalek Cann, and any of the Daleks from the season opener.

    Flatly contradicted in text.

    #48052

    @juniperfish

     I missed the costume designer for the Smithy era confirming that they were playing with red-shift and blue-shift in relation to the red and blue bow-ties

    I’d be willing to be that’s a creative retcon. I reckon you gave them the idea with your obsessive diligent monitoring 😉

    #48053
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    As Missy has the Doctor’s confession dial at the start of the series, and the Doctor gives it to Ashildr in Face the Raven, has he already lived through the thousands upon thousands of years in the puzzle torture-chamber/ confession dial before series 9 starts, for us?

    Is Series 9 itself a bootstrap paradox (the creation of the confession dial being the loop without origin)? I know others have raised this possibility before…

     

    #48054
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @Delta- but the day of the doctor was broadcast years after the re-boot. Up until that point, he believed he had done it. Had clara not been there, he might have done it. Not just the war doctor, but ten and eleven as well.

    #48055
    Delta @delta

    A clone is a living copy of a living thing.
    The Doctor is a living thing.
    The Doctor, from this story on, is a clone of the original
    Also, when is the existence of Daleks with human/Galifreyan emotions and/or abilities.

    #48056
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @delta: how was the planet of the timelords existing billions whats of the what now?

    #48057
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @juniperfish Ooh. To be safe, as it’s the final episode, I think any discussion about the “Next Time” trailer should be in the BBC Approved Spoilers thread.

    I don’t know if you noticed but they moved the “Next Time” to after the credits because they got so many complaints when it was after the episode. Now people have time to switch off before they see any of next week. I don’t mind, but they’re are a lot that do.

    #48058

    @delta

    A clone is a living copy of a living thing.

    No. A clone has none of the memories or life experience of the original (and has to be growth from embryo, with it’s DNA already thinking it is t0+n years old).

    But the Doctor had all of his life experience right up to the moment of teleport. Whatever was storing him was much more sophisticated than mere cloning.

    And he knew he was gradually chipping the diamond wall down prior to each restoration. That was the only thing that had to be relearned, because the back up did not have that data.

    #48059
    Delta @delta

    @juniperfish ,
    Perhaps, this is a case of the wrong Doctor in place of another.
    Perhaps, the 12th Doctor, replaces The War Doctor.
    I have some points to support this:
    The War Doctor.dies at the and of the day of the Doctor,
    In Heaven Sent, the Doctor reveals that time lords can take weeks to die.
    So, the war doctor is dying from the veil.
    And the twelfth is suffering inside a tomb of guilt in the war doctor’s place.

    #48060
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    OK @craig thanks – I will nip over to BBC approved spoilers for more cogitation.

    @pedant lol:-) Yes, I’ve no doubt the Who production team nick all their best ideas from us!

    #48061
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    I loved it, by the way. Moffat played another timey-wimey blinder – not with time travel but with time repeated. It was beautifully done. Moffat’s ‘sort-of’ bottle episodes continue to be his best.

    #48062
    tommo @tommo

    so the time lords spend 2 billion years trying to torture information re. the hybrid out of the doctor, he breaks out and apparently confesses almost immediately – ha. i love this show so much. capaldi is the epitomy of the ‘cool doctor’.

    one question though; why did the crystal wall not reset like all the other rooms..?

    roll on saturday 🙂

    #48064
    Delta @delta

    @pedant,
    There are many types of clones, not just biological ones.
    The doctor’s had no idea what they were doing until the end, simply repeating the same actions over and over again.
    Thy only become aware when they realise the meaning of the bird, and so became part of the cycle.
    The Doctor at the end simply thought that the diamond wall had been worn down somehow and just went with it.

    #48065
    Delta @delta

    The idea of time repeating itself is a pretty lazy idea.

    #48066
    Delta @delta

    @tommo,
    There is no proof that the time Lord’s ever did this.

    #48069
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    After taking time to compose myself, I feel I am missing the meaning of several things, such as the writing on the wall and the sand circle with arrows.

    I am beyond excited, though!

    #48071
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @delta can you give me an example of a none-biological clone?

    #48072
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @delta

    There is a philosophical debate about teleportation that has been explored in sci-fi for decades from Star Trek onwards. Every time someone undergoes it, the ‘original’ is destroyed and conveyed as digital information to be reconstituted at the destination. The uncertainty over this process led Doctor ‘Bones’ McCoy to distrust teleportation.

    If this is your view, then the Doctor hasn’t been the ‘original’ since 1969 when he first teleported.

    #48073
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @delta It can be a lazy idea if done lazily. If done well it can be great. I love “Source Code” for example, and also thought “Edge of Tomorrow” was a great take on the genre.

    #48074
    Delta @delta

    As in created by rearranging the latent atoms into an exact clone of the desired object.
    Technically, then the doctor is manufactured, rather than cloned.

    #48075
    Delta @delta

    I agree, Source Code was pulled off well.

    #48076
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @tommo

    so the time lords spend 2 billion years trying to torture information re. the hybrid out of the doctor, he breaks out and apparently confesses almost immediately

    Interesting that. Did he say ‘The hybrid is me’ or ‘The hybrid is Me’ (meaning Ashildr). I still think the hybrid is Clara though, and that is misdirection

    #48077
    Delta @delta

    Another idea is that the Doctor is actually bringing other doctors in from other universes.

    #48078
    Delta @delta

    Which explains why there are no doctors in other realities.

    #48079
    Delta @delta

    @phaseshift/@tommo,
    Perhaps the hybrid is Dalek Cann,who will return to finish what it tried to do in Stolen Earth, and destroy the Daleks and the Time Lords

    #48080
    django @django

    The 1960’s spy program had its main character (Number 6) resigning from the secret service only to be awake a captive in a village for ex spies (Controlled by a never seen Number One) with the authorities trying to find out why he resigned. Every episode would include the conversation “Who is Number One?  / You are Number Six”.

    Forget about TV movies and being half human on the mothers side. With the ending to Heaven Sent, have we just had Steven Moffats version of The Prisoner intro? It would explain Ashildrs chosen nom de plume!

    #48081
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @Delta- then the doctor is manufactured during the first teleportation he ever underwent, and his first into the confession dial, and every one after that.

    #48082
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @juniperfish

    Yeah, Howard Burden was the costume creative from Asylum of the Daleks till Death in Heaven (he did Red Dwarf earlier in his career as well). He says he inherited the blue-red convention from his predecessor, rather than coming up with it but says he enjoyed mashing up styles and influences for the Doctor and Clara during his time with clues for the fashion conscious (Clara dressing anachronistically during season 7, poppy print dresses for Remembrance, etc.)

    A fun guy.

    #48083
    Delta @delta

    Not necessarily, we don’t even know if the device that the Doctor uses is a teleport.
    It could be some sort of biological 3-D printer for all we know.

    #48084
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @Delta- why over complicate things by assuming that the doctor is wrong/is lying?

    #48085
    tommo @tommo

    @phaseshift – good point. ME could well mean Ashildr. the plot thickens….

    #48086
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    Great episode. Agree with @django that there’s a definite Prisoner riff here, most notably the Once Upon A Time episode.

    @delta — I think @pedant and others are correct in that we’re not talking about a Doctor ‘clone’ just because he’s teleported. How many times has the Doctor used a teleporter throughout the 50 years of the series? If your assertion were the case we haven’t been watching ‘the Doctor’ for some decades now. You’d also have to qualify just what do you mean by ‘the Doctor’? I mean, how does regeneration fit into this equation. That’s complete cellular renewal. Did the Doctor cease to the the Doctor when he became Troughton?

    And the whole thing was very Ian Banks. I’d say Ian M Banks, but actually the two I first read and favourite of his science fiction are ‘The Bridge’ and ‘Walking on glass’. I don’t know if my mother and boyfriend enjoyed it much, and I’m sorry and concerned about that. But I loved it.

    Slightly nit-picky thing but not sure The Bridge or Walking on Glass really count as Banks’ true SF work. But I’d definitely agree the influence is there (been re-reading a lot of Banks of late and did wonder if I was reading too much into it so am very glad you cited this too). It did make me think of Feersum Endjinn too though, which is bona fide Iain M Banks SF fare.

    #48088
    Spider @spider

    Oh my 😮

    That was fantastic! Too much to take in right now. A very different episode, a very different idea. My only slight criticism is it did drag a little bit in places at the start. But Capaldi was splendid in this. The bit when he says something along the lines of ‘but you still won’t be here’ about Clara I think I must have got a bit of dust in my eye *sniff* *blub*.

    I had already suspected the ‘time loop’ element reasonably early on, but had thought we’d find out the veil thingy was somehow the Doctor himself. So not quite right!

    Loved the idea he retreats to his TARDIS to figure out his plans and loved how we still have Clara ‘helping’

    The skulls!!!!!

    My brain was already having a major mindsplosion about it all and THEN we see the orange sky … I think I may have needed scraped off the ceiling at this point.

    I may need to go for a lie down now!

    (\(\;;/)/)

    #48091
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    Just started watching, 10 seconds in and I’m already thinking The Veil is going to be The Valeyard, this will be a fun 55 minutes I can tell!

    #48092
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    On the confirmation that @juniperfish‘s red/blue theory was ultimately borne out, is it possible that the ‘arse’ in this episode was a nod to that celebrated acronym of @scaryb‘s?

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