28 November 2015 at 23:02 #48094IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant
That would be too beautiful for words. So we need a new acronym. NIFTI (Nicking Ideas From The Internet) 🙂28 November 2015 at 23:06 #48096Miapatrick @miapatrick
@Jimthefish- which is why I said Ian Banks rather than Ian M Banks- but his sci fi in those two is my favourite Banks writing, over the real world in those books, and the sci-fi in his other series- though he never wrote a book I didn’t like, except maybe, confusingly, ‘a song of stone’28 November 2015 at 23:20 #48098JimTheFish @jimthefishTime Lord28 November 2015 at 23:26 #48099PhaseShift @phaseshiftTime Lord
So, @phaseshift was right last week about Gallifrey returning, because what else could have been about to happen? But it isn’t clear whether links between the “Skaro degradations”, the “Could’ve-Been King” and the Knightmare Child were co-incidences, insanely detailed continuity or so many Theories More Bonkers Than What’s Actually Going On.
Look, with my track record of being a Cassandra, I’m claiming a win and doing a lap of honour at the moment!
You know, when I was in my teens in the 80s I got to see The Prisoner on C4. I watched the final two episodes with my father, who had watched the first transmission. I thought it was spellbinding TV. Audacious, bizarre and challenging. He hated it on first transmission and repeat and confessed he wanted to kick the TV screen when the final episode was shown. Such is life, and opinion.
I just want to make the point that on a Saturday night, before the watershed, after a celeb dance show and with a singing competition on the other main channel we’ve been treated with something similarly audacious. A one hander. A 55 minute contemplation on mortality and sacrifice.
Just incredible. Doctor Who. I want to kiss it to death. Thank you to all involved. I wish more TV could dare to be this different.28 November 2015 at 23:33 #48100Miapatrick @miapatrick
@JimTheFish- I tried and failed to get into his ‘m’ books till he died. Then I binge-read them all, and I think he could have been a Douglas Adams to modern Who. I really liked ‘Player of Games’, I’m a major fan of ‘The glass bead game’, that is probably my favourite sci-fi, and I love the way the reader is expected to fill in the gaps.
Nifti- I love it.28 November 2015 at 23:36 #48101Starla @starla
Holy moly! That was really awesome. I cottoned on to the skulls being the Doctor’s when he came across his wet clothes drying by the fireplace, and immediately thought he was stuck in a loop. Great concept, and what an ending to leave us with!
<p style=”text-align: left;”>@phaseshift & @tommo – I think there was ambiguity at the end there, could mean Me as in Ashildr, not CapDoc. It’s unclear, which I like. ☺</p>28 November 2015 at 23:39 #48103Bobbyfat @bobbyfat
o m good golly miss molly
so help me through the confession dial paradox – at the end of face the raven Me is holding it, at the end of Heaven Sent the Dr is holding it – are they one and the same? Is the Dr and therefore Gallifey still inside the confession dial that Me is holding?
dr who / the prisoner / monument valley mash up oh yes
any advances on the theory that this ep was the dr trapped in castle scenario missy talked about in ep 2
can i also be the first (and maybe last) to throw Nietzsche;s theory of Eternal Recurrence into the bonkers bucket of ill considered trifles28 November 2015 at 23:47 #48104SirClockFace @sirclockface
That was good…
I was convinced that Before the Flood was going to be the best episode in the series but now Moffat’s given me a run for my money. The confession dial kind of adds to our theory about the episodes not being in the right order. And the music was fantastic, not even that, fantastically beautiful.
“Did he say ‘The hybrid is me’ or ‘The hybrid is Me’ (meaning Ashildr).”
That’s clever, really clever!29 November 2015 at 00:00 #48105True-Space-Wars-Lover @true-space-wars-lover
To all fans of the Doctor Who serie is this and will this episode be a gift of god.
I mean: “WOW” to see this episode gave me a shiver. I am still smiling because of the feeling of epic.
To see a true “PARADIS-LOOP” i am honestly amaze. And I … … …… ;D29 November 2015 at 00:10 #48106bendubz11 @bendubz11
Ok wow. I am in awe. So I guess that means Rory is no longer the character to have died the most then, right? My mind can’t actually fathom this episode at the moment I think that I’ll need to sleep on it before I can actually express my love for it coherently. What i will say now though is @phaseshift, you’re a genius.29 November 2015 at 00:25 #48108soundworld @soundworld
That was … amazing. I echo the sentiments above – such brave, exciting television. Truly horrifying. I had the realisation that he was in/creating his confession dial on the 3rd confession – and then realised the ‘I’m in 12’ meant his own skull.
I suspect there is a wider bootstrap loop in operation, or the order-of-episodes theory is correct, that what we have just seen is before Missy gets handed the dial back in the first episode.
I was on headphones (the other family members busy watching celebrity jungle) and @sirclockface the music really stood out.
I’m – well, in need of the restorative powers of a good whisky.29 November 2015 at 01:03 #48113ceejbot @ceejbot
Longtime lurker, first time poster de-lurking here to say: wow oh wow that was a corker. I agree that it just gave “Under the Lake”/”Before the Flood” a run for their money as best of a very very good series. Plots like this are Moffat at his best, I think: a little tricky, puzzle-box-y, that make more sense on subsequent viewings where you see that all the pieces really do fit together. There’s no time-travel in this one, other than the Doctor’s slow, steady, agonizing progress forward through that first second of Eternity.29 November 2015 at 01:16 #48116soundworld @soundworld
Hi @ceejbot Welcome out into the open!
I’m thinking that, since it took place inside a timey-wimey confession dial of TimeLordTech, the 2 billion years could easily have taken place inside … a mere second (of Eternity).29 November 2015 at 02:22 #48120Anonymous @
I thought it was amazing. This is son talking.
@phaseshift I read your comments and agree with them.
@pedant I spent a whole year studying clones and so what you have stated is totally right about this. I have to say that I know Iian (spelling sorry) Banks very well and that we have an English teacher completely on board with the knowledge from that. I can see some connections.
Another idea is that the Doctor is actually bringing other doctors in from other universes.
At school we would be asked to say how we would support that assertion? I don’t know how but if you have, excellent!
I don’t think he is a clone. Repeating time? But that is all the Doctor often does. I think that it being ‘lazy writing’ would need to be supported again as its one of those assertions but that’s OK. I’m just 14 and don’t know all that much!
What I can add: this is now Mum speaking and I’m typing what she’s saying:
“the Star Bangled banner motif from the beginning was fantastic -it kept reappearing which was wonderful. Also, there was the Funeral March woven into a completely different motif. No actual theme from 12 was used throughout apparently -which I found very intriguing. As I wrote on the Sofa, his fixity of purpose was astounding. This 50-odd minutes was beautifully crafted and despite the terror there was also joy -the parts of his mind eclipsed by Clara were deft and the commemoration of his true love for this companion who has always saved him, was marvellous.
That voice, though, so gorgeous to hear: mellifluous and striking, tinged with fear and hubris seemed to me to be the apotheosis of everything in Doctor Who we have come to know. I think the agony of time travel and repeating tasks was shown with clarity: the true loneliness of one who might never die (or who takes an awful long time to succumb) and who, when facing death, would do everything in his power to never let go and speak the confession: “never give in, never give up, never be cowardly”. How true in this episode. This episode felt to me like it contained all the Doctors -for every one of us. I am assured that most people would find something in this episode to attract them -to make them fall in love with some part of this Doctor.
To me, it harkens back to Listen and to exactly where in the timeline we’re always been. The chalk on the board, the stories of Kill the Moon and In the Forest of the Night could well be stories made by Clara who “once in your head never gets out.” I’d like to think that a part of her kept returning and suggesting the next move for him -not just the questions, but the stories so as to keep him occupied and sane, if possible.
The time, for me, passed very quickly but I have to say, from my personal perspective, the concept of death, of resurrection, of eternity and of repeating the same thing over and over, was very difficult to watch. These are the things that have concentrated my thoughts lately. I find that a little upsetting to see on screen, but also it gives me ample joy to see a story told without the blithe arrogance of writers who seem, lately, to take few risks (as we all must do in our every day life).
Far from lazy, I feel that this is Moffat’s finest hour: a literal transition from Beethoven’s symphonies when he decided to stop having a break between the movements: in the 5th for example. Other composers followed suit. I think Moffat has broken some boundaries and for that we can be largely thankful.
Of course there was much that remained confusing: the confession dial itself, and a few bits and pieces, from a literary perspective, that I will need to re-think and puzzle over. But I was stunned by its brilliance. I hope @delta you will give it another chance. This would benefit from many a re-watch.”
Thankyou from Mum and Son! 🙂29 November 2015 at 02:40 #48121Anonymous @
@soundworld This is Son of Puro writing. I agree yes! When mum gets nervous it’s about things repeating -the idea of forever or eternity going over and over. I say to her, “no, I think you don’t know it’s happening. I think time is different. It’s not line -linear?”. So I agree with your assertion of it being in one second. That’s a very positive way to view this entire episode -like a fragment of time rather than the whole of time.
I think @phaseshift should do a lap of honour (?) in that he got the idea right! I think probably many people did. I can’t wait to read @mudlark and @arbutus opinions of this episode as well as @bluesqueakpip‘s -please watch it! But if you don’t I understand. I think this Doctor might not be to everybody’s taste. Mum thinks he’s the best but I will always be loyal to Matty Smith – can’t help that. I became a conscious person when he arrived on screen. By then, I understood Doctor Who and what it was about. So he is ‘my doctor’. Mum is now won over by Capaldi
Thankyou29 November 2015 at 02:54 #48122IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant
Yep – each new copy is from the same….er….master, the teleport buffer (as noted by @jimthefish).
It was also a bit like Memento – each reloaded Doctor had to learn the same hard lesson, with no prior knowledge, before taking his bird peck at the the diamond wall, until spent, then using his body to fuel the new one, while leaving the clue. No bootstrap here: the first time through he took as long as needed to work it out and then left the clue, for the first time. A clear origin and end.
It occurs to me, BTW, that if Ashildr is, indeed, the Nightmare Child, then her events pertaining to Gallifrey pre-date the end of the Time War. ie this is not a pocket universe but a historical one.
Which to me raises the interesting idea that, in addition to ending the Time War, the Doctor may have run away from Gallifrey because he knew he was had set events in motion that would inevitably start it.
Now that would be a causal loop.29 November 2015 at 03:22 #48123Anonymous @
Puro here. Yes, indeed: memento came to mind. I have had difficulties explaining the difference between causal loop and bootstrap paradox to young Lion as the words are probably confusing. Simply saying “clear beginning and clear end” is the way for me to go about it at any rate.
I thought, at first, it was going to be a bootstrap paradox (no joy there) but I also saw ‘death,’ as it were and thought “it’s the thing under the bed” but no, there were no flies on that! Son believed that the thing under the bed in Listen is definitely connected because of the chalk reminder and said something along the lines of “there’s one of those waiting for everyone somewhere. In Listen it was baby death -the first conscious thought of the Shadow or Veil of death” which I thought was pretty clever. He’s only watched Listen once. He found it quite disturbing last year.
I believed that Lady Mayor had to have connections with the TLs -the Shadow spirit and its spirals seemed similar to Gallifreyan writing or swirls to me but as Son reminds me “you don’t speak Gallifreyan”. Indeed not.
As for the Nightmare child -oh yes, that is interesting and suggests you’re quite right -it pre-dates the Time War and the arrival of all of those nasty buggers -the King and his army of meanwhiles and neverweres which could be, as others remarked, the Fisher King. Or perhaps not.
Certainly, tracing this back to the start of this season is perhaps not recent enough? I think this episode and all the stories of the previous season are connected as far back as Listen or before. How all that works out, though, is headache inducing for if this is indeed true and Listen, Kill the Moon etc. were stories created by Clara because she enjoyed these ideas (- she always looked at the Moon at the end of each day) then Moff was playing a very long game indeed.
Certainly the legend of Robin Hood was very interesting if seen in that light. To what extent was any of this real? That’s what I’d like to know. But then again, we do know that Clara lost Danny and he fits into a recognised linear time line -therefore all those crazy stories did actually occur -the trees overtook London, etc. I think not, personally. I believe it was a marvellous construct and perhaps explains the weird exhibits of last year’s one + one adventures a little better. Who nose?
Certainly it was an epic risk by Moffat and to me, a very successful story. It’ll be something I’ll watch again and again.
Kindest, Puro29 November 2015 at 03:25 #48124
WHOA! My kind of episode! I had a feeling about the confession dial but I didn’t think
he would take that trip into it. He went thru trials for billion of years and I don’t think it was
driven by his fear. Fear was just the companion. Clara told him that in Listen ( in the barn).
I think he was driven by overwhelming grief for Clara. He mentions grief when he was sitting
at the table. Got lots of questions. But this was truly lovely. My favorite since Listen. The
Beethoven was terrific. Bird? Hybrid?? If he is the hybrid then hybrid of what? If he is
part human then is 1 of his hearts human and the other galifreyan? I remember in an Amy/11
episode she was able to use the shock box to revive him so was that a hint? Where is his confession
dial now? A few answers turn into so many more questions!29 November 2015 at 03:25 #48125catladymeow @catladymeow
I’ve just watched this episode, and Wow, loved it. After reading all the comments though, I have one question. What does it matter if the Doctor is a clone or not? He’s still the Doctor. Makes little difference.29 November 2015 at 03:30 #48126Akhaten @akhaten
I really loved the episode! Well made and everything. Haha now it all made sense why the spade’s were there. There were parts of it where my tv would be glitchy and I think I missed some parts of his soliloquy/monologue. I’ll definitely re-watch when its online. Sorry if this was thoroughly explained by the Doctor when he was talking, but what did him writing ‘bird’ mean?29 November 2015 at 03:37 #48127Anonymous @
That was a very Moffat episode. I loved it! The monster of this week was genuinely scary. The theme of this being a bit darker season continues.
I thought the Tardis and Clara in the Doctor’s head was very clever. With Moffat’s writing history I should have seen the end with the repeating wall smashing coming but he has once again surprised me. He also continues to write amazing memorable lines for the Doctor.
I also have mention how Moffat really likes making people jump off of buildings.
The best part had to be when the confession dial formed at the end, and of course Gallifrey is back!
I am still in denial of Clara’s death. There is still an episode left for her to return (possibly for her to sadly die again) although this wouldn’t be the first time for the impossible girl.
But this episodes does bring up some questions. Who was the boy at the end? Who sent the Doctor to that place to make his confession? And is the Doctor’s end near now that he has confessed?
Now to read your thoughts on the episode.29 November 2015 at 03:43 #48128
PS great sets too! and how was this confession dial an access to Galifrey?
I liked the metaphor of breaking thru the time wall ? Time lord tech using the
confession dial to travel back to Galifrey. Wonder if ‘They’ just wanted to
use the dial to exile the Doctor? If so it didn’t work out really well.29 November 2015 at 03:45 #48129Anonymous @
@catladymeow well, I think it does make a difference -to some of us, any how. It would turn over and upside down, every concept we’ve ever known about who the Doctor is. For instance, is he nobody at all except some construct in peoples’ imaginations? What is regeneration, really? I think, on the whole, the concept “clone” is extremely important. I’d call it an exemplar definition. To truly define the Doctor we need to understand what he is not. He is not a clone. He does have different personalities. He is able to choose, or to be given, a particular face for a specific reason etc…
@lisa I agree, it was stunning. The idea that he repeated this interrogation over and over was quite incredible. The idea that death takes place over a day and a half and is not immediate was sensational and new information. It explains why the Confession Dial was given to Missy I suppose.
But then we have to work out when he actually had it and how long it was retained. To work out how Missy was actually involved beyond seeing the Dial the first time -did she know what was in it? Obviously, the entire thing is TL tech – an entire ‘forever’ was transplanted into this Dial much like a mini Tardis.
Certainly the opening credits make sense now when you see the castle, its moving turrets and the long shot of the top of the console of the Tardis -those Gallifreyan symbols turning the way they do. Perhaps we now have an answer as to why the Tardis didn’t like Clara – once she was in the Doctor’s ‘brain or mind’ she is also in the Tardis’.
At first I wasn’t sure about the sudden switch back to the Tardis when the Doctor is sitting at the bottom of the ‘ocean’. I thought it could disturb continuity but I believe it was necessary for us, the audience: it also gave us as family viewers a breather -a way to ‘pause’ the intensity of the ‘moment’, as it were.
Certainly it pushed the envelope of time -more so than in The Big Bang where we had lots of jumping timey whimeyness. This showed us the consequences of being a Time Lord. I’m not sure you’re a Lord of Time but rather that you’re connected, like a horse to its cart, to time itself. So time is a ‘lord’ of you, rather than the other way around?
Kindest, puro.29 November 2015 at 03:51 #48130
Can Bird refer to the Raven that took Clara? To remind himself he was going to ‘win’
over imprisonment in this trap for her?29 November 2015 at 03:56 #48131Anonymous @
hello to you! Puro here. I think there’s a few ways to look at ‘bird’ -keep pecking away at it -at the material 400 times stronger than diamond. It’s also the answer to the story the Doctor was telling the Veil over that billion(s) year period. Also, I interpreted it as ‘burn’ for some reason – as if he was writing it incorrectly because he was dying – but that’s purely my rather poor take on that!
At the end he spoke about the nature of how long it would take that ‘bird’ to complete the task -a connection to the Confession Dial and the nature of TL technology too. Also, there was the natural reminder of the Doctor as a swooping bird which I wrote about On The Sofa and of course, a parallel with the Raven itself. Birds in Roman augury are unpleasant omens. So whilst the clue ‘bird’ was the beginning of an end to this Magic Flute-type trial, it also suggests that arriving on Gallifrey (where life is continuing normally despite the pocket universe) will provide even more challenges.
@lisa I loved the reminder of ‘the long way round’ -I don’t think we would ever have thought it would be billions of years. That belief alone was hard for me to hang onto as a concept -it brings that idea of Time being your Lord, as it were, into greater focus. A little bit like the sea: one can enjoy it and its fruits but one must always have fear and respect toward it.29 November 2015 at 04:04 #48132Anonymous @
Yes, lisa that’s good too -it was a suggestion of the idea of winning but also of giving in to some extent: he has to take the slow road. The easier way would be to give in, to die: he said “it’s not fair. It would be easier to die.” But Clara and her “ever presence in his mind” kept his focus -his ‘hearth’ -shining with purpose and clarity.
Also, it reminds us of why the Doctor said nervously to Clara when she said “it’s a trap street,” ‘why did you say that, Clara?’ He looked very worried. Remembering forward again? I think these past two years have definitely re-written our idea of linear time. Nothing is in the right order and possibly it doesn’t really matter, perhaps?
Although it will matter to some and I understand that for sure.
Thankyou29 November 2015 at 04:09 #48133
Just finished watching and I was amazed again at how good this show can be. I really liked it ,if you can call being scared, angry, and heartbroken in equal measures liking something. This Doctor only episode worked because of the skills of Capaldi, he made me feel everything he felt. I was fairly drained when it was over.
There was a scene in the Tardis when the Doctor says something like “The day someone you love dies is not the worst day.You have things to do . It’s all the days after when they stay dead that are worse.” Those lines made me cry ,no dust just out and out crying.
Gallifrey! Me! Can’t wait till next week.29 November 2015 at 04:16 #48134Anonymous @
@phaseshift It seems Moffat has been slipping in a few Sherlock references such as in Last Christmas “I deleted it.” I love that kind of thing.
Somehow I didn’t even connect the Doctor’s skulls with the hundreds in the water already. Creepy.
I want to say thanks to everyone on the forum because I don’t really know anyone to talk to who truly appreciates Doctor Who the way I do.
@juniperfish I was just starting to wonder myself about the paradox of when the Doctor made the confession dial.
@lisa I was also wondering about the connection between BIRD and the Raven.29 November 2015 at 04:19 #48135ichabod @ichabod
Well, that was — my head’s spinning and my stomach is all knotted up from the tension and the need to concentrate really hard. It didn’t help that my TV’s sound is crap, and the music was pretty loud sometimes when he was speaking. Once I nab the episode and can replay it on my computer, I’ll be able to catch what I couldn’t hear this time. Til then, I’m confused — but replete. That was gorgeous.
And yes, we have a snake-reminder: the castle sections turning and turning was like the snake-segments of the face of Colony Sarff turning, back in the beginning of S9.29 November 2015 at 04:19 #48136
I also have to say that the music was beautiful and haunting in places. It certainly set the mood. The castle was fantastic and the ocean full of Doctor skulls truly creepy. Epic episode.29 November 2015 at 04:20 #48137Anonymous @
<p style=”text-align: left;”>@winston I know what you mean. Doctor Who makes me feel a kind of sadness that I like. It makes me think of when Sally said that sad things are happy for deep people.</p>
<p style=”text-align: left;”>That quote about after someone dies stood out to me too. Quotes like those are a big reason why I love the show so much.</p>29 November 2015 at 04:23 #48138Anonymous @29 November 2015 at 04:23 #48139Anonymous @
@lisa I think our answers to @akhaten crossed in time -I definitely see the connection with the bird, the raven, as omen in this episode. I also see the story as a major theme here throughout the entire 2 seasons. I believe that Moff deployed all his targets in this 2 year ‘season’ just as he did when Eleven began with the crack in time. I hope he will be remembered with fondness when he finally hands over the showrunning. I can’t imagine anything beating this.29 November 2015 at 04:33 #48140
If he left the confession dial with Me then how is it he is holding it in his hand at the end
of this episode? I did like how he fell back into his comfort zone which was having
Clara and the Tardis aka his mind when he needed his ‘deliberations’ . That’s how he managed
his sanity.29 November 2015 at 04:33 #48141Carrieanne @carrieanne
@ichabod I got that same spinning head thing when the time loop sped up too. It was effective though. I think the TL’s underestimated the Doctor. I don’t think they expected him to be able to make it out. They put him through hell to find out the hybrid, and then he confesses that it is him. I think that is what he meant by me. Not Ashildr. But of course it could be. This is definitely an episode that needs a few more viewings to really get all that’s going on.29 November 2015 at 04:35 #48142
@theconsultingdoctor I am glad I’m not the only one having trouble hearing the Doctor over the music.Playing with the audio helped a bit. I love the writing on this show.There is nothing to compare on TV today.
@puroandson I can’t imagine anything beating this either, and I will always love the Moff and the wonderful stories he has told.29 November 2015 at 04:36 #48143
Yes! Agreed about the Moff and his really great story arcs and excellent stuff Mr. M!29 November 2015 at 04:43 #48144
It’s getting late so off to mull over this episode as I try to get to sleep. Be back after a rewatch on Sunday to read the great comments and theories from you all.29 November 2015 at 04:44 #48145Akhaten @akhaten
@puroandson Thanks for the explanation. It now makes a little more sense to me. I cant wait to watch this episode again!
@theconsultingdoctor @ichabod haha I thought I was the only one with tv problems!29 November 2015 at 04:56 #48148Anonymous @
because the dial started the ‘process’ of his arrival at what I’ll call the castle. When the castle ‘disappeared’ upon his arrival on the planet with the red sky (Gallifrey) the confession dial reanimated and ‘plopped on the ground’.
Also interesting, that in the first episode in the series it was already partially open. Maybe it opens in the presence of a TL like Missy and then when she vanished after TWF, it closed again?
So that connected the dial and its role/reason for existing to the TLs. Why he had it in the very first place is now confusing because it’s not a last will after all. Unless it’s “his will”, as it were.
His strength of purpose etc.29 November 2015 at 05:13 #48149Anonymous @
on the music score, it was at 18 seconds you can hear the percussion adding the fabulous sounds of ‘flies’ buzzing -beautifully re-created by Ben Foster. The Star Bangled Banner is definitely there but with the antecedent phrase played in the minor key. The 3rd movement of Beethoven’s 5th has some play as well which is interesting considering Under the Lake/BTF.
I’m going to take the audio voice out and just listen to the music on the stereo -that will be very interesting. let the story with its action and the music give us the directions to the conclusion.29 November 2015 at 05:14 #48150
i cannot find the right words of praise for this episode. it stands alongside other great eps, like ‘midnight,’ ‘blink,’ and ‘the day of the doctor,’ as the best of the best of who.
for me, anyway. others may disagree…
but, regarding the writing of the word “bird.” i wonder if the brief flashback of clara’s death by the raven inspired the doctor’s story of the shepherd boy, and the mountain of diamond, and the bird that chiseled it away? in that way, the doctor could use the instrument of clara’s death as a tool of his own, to keep giving himself the hint he needs to chisel away at the barrier to gallifrey?
oh, and also, when he heard clara’s voice, and she appeared to him? totally got me in the feels, as the young’uns might say… 🙂29 November 2015 at 05:21 #48151Anonymous @
dear people mum is horrified I have typed ‘star bangled banner’ instead of Star Spangled Banner.
Apologies to the Americans and well, all people in general. And I thought I was a good speller.
Son of Puro.
Thankyou29 November 2015 at 05:22 #48152CountScarlioni @countscarlioni
Wonderful and powerful episode. Great timey-wimey, very SM, stuff!
The Doctor Winning: the Doctor losing has been an issue this series. My count before Heaven Sent was Doctor 3 (Davros, Fisher King and Mire) vs Forces of Darkness 2 (Rasmussen,`They’). But my, this win was a slog, 4 Billion plus years of excruciating effort.
Is this the first time we’ve seen the Doctor so frightened? He’s been afraid on a regular basis (& hung onto Clara’s hand in `Sleep No More’ for that reason), but scared out of his mind? I don’t recall that happening.
@ardaraith the writing on the wall. I’m not certain, but I believe the writing is in fact the episode’s opening speech that the Doctor delivers.
@lisa Can Bird refer to the Raven that took Clara? To remind himself he was going to ‘win’ over imprisonment in this trap for her? I think `BIRD’ just refers to a fairy tale by the Brothers Grimm (The Shepherd Boy). I’ve pasted in below what I think is the relevant bit from a version of the story on the internet.
“In Lower Pomerania is the Diamond Mountain, which is two miles and a half high, two miles and a half wide, and two miles and a half in depth; every hundred years a little bird comes and sharpens its beak on it, and when the whole mountain is worn away by this, then the first second of eternity will be over.”
Some echoes for me in Heaven Sent of an old (1965?) Avengers episode The House That Jack Built, where the aim was to drive Mrs. Peel mad, if anyone knows that one.29 November 2015 at 05:22 #48153nerys @nerys
Wow. Just wow. Husband and I were blown away by this episode. Amazing writing on the part of Moffat, and getting his head around the big picture. We viewers have taken the long way around, too … and I like that. Not billions of years, of course. But I thought the story arc would return to Gallifrey long before it did.
So, my poor little linear-trapped mind cannot quite work out how the Doctor arrived wearing the dark red coat, but then is seen midway through the episode taking off his dark magician’s coat with the red lining and putting the red one on. I get that there’s something very timey-wimey going on, but I will never figure that out on my own. Small words, big pictures, please!29 November 2015 at 05:23 #48154Anonymous @
dear @geoffers I agree with you about the bird as well -the word bird, from Clara which pecked and chiselled it away. That’s a really good explanation. Without Clara’s death would he have been there forever: literally forever? Or would he have died and given up which is against his creed: “never give in”
Son of Puro.29 November 2015 at 05:23 #48155bendubz11 @bendubz11
@lisa @puroandson yes that has been bugging me as well, trying to work out what happened to the confession dial. I have an idea, though I’m not convinced it’s correct.
We assumed that when CapDoc left the trap street at the end of Raven, it was through teleport, but what if it wasn’t. When you compare it with other teleport bracelets, or vortex manipulators we’ve seen (I’m starting to think they might be linked somehow), the bracelet is never left behind. But it was that time, so why? To get the bracelet on, the TARDIS key was needed. And Mayor Me in no uncertain terms asked for the Confession Dial. So what if that’s where he went – into the version that Me was holding? Goes in, spends millions of years solving the riddle, though that may be only a few seconds passing outside of the dial, once he solves it both he and the confession dial are transported to Gallifrey. It would explain why Me knew that “they” had other ways of procuring CapDoc’s confessions.29 November 2015 at 05:24 #48156
as to how can the doctor have the confession dial? my take on it, is that he was teleported into it by the machine that ashildr/me activated. once he had worked his way “through” the confession, and “defeated” the scary, tortuous nature of the device, it released him, and reverted back to (presumably) an empty dial.
as to why he ended up on gallifrey? perhaps he hid gallifrey in the dial, once he removed it from the time war? but he didn’t know he had hidden it there, and only figured it out as he was going through the confession process? i would love to get a scene next week, of ashildr/me holding the dial, and it just disappears in a flash of light, like the veil…29 November 2015 at 05:28 #48157
seems we arrived at the same conclusion, instantaneously! but you type more quickly than me… 🙂29 November 2015 at 05:30 #48158Anonymous @
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