Kill the Moon

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  • #33247
    Anonymous @

    @fatmaninabox and @brewski The metal plate could be a re-prop but I recall in RoS that a large metal plate -similar to the one in Fires Of Pompeii was used. Together with a whole lot of these (needed by Phil Davis’ character), they helped the ‘monsters’ to awaken. Then the plate in Journey to the Centre of the Earth and now in Kill the Moon -either Gallifreyan or manipulated by someone else (possibly the props guy!). The fact it flew in a perfect ‘arc’ and then shortly after, Clara presses the other button and the Doctor arrives “come in you, 1,2,3 – in you go for a minute”). Wonderful stuff.

    Whatever the science, I really felt the pace was astonishing and the tension admirable. As someone above said (forgive my memory), Hermoine Norris’ complete distraction from who the Doctor was, or pretty much anything else -her total misery and “I’m over it” attitude and  “Let’s just do this” was well rendered, don’t you think? I saw her mainly in Spooks years ago and something with Stephen Fry but other than that, nil!

    Kindest, puro.

    #33248

    @badwulf

    I definitely agree that it was a suicide mission, which explains the astronaut’s grim and fatalistic demeanour (which I think was one of the very strongest points of the episode).

    Lundvik explicitly said that she never expected to survive.

    Everything about the set up showed it to be a suicidal and almost quixotic mission.

    #33249
    Anonymous @

    @scaryb – I’m not prone to bouts of paranoia but the Trolley Problem has got me avoiding railways at all costs – just in case 😉

    @badwulf

    It totally spoils the story if you can’t just *believe* in the fatman. :)

    Ooh, I like it. Can I adopt that as my motto? 😀

    #33250
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @badwulf

    The Doctor’s actions could therefore only be seen as responsible to Courtney if he already had knowledge that the detonation was aborted somehow.

    There is another option, I think. When Lundvik asks “how do we kill it?” the Doctor says they can kill the creature with nukes “if they still work”. That’s a pretty big if – and Lundvik did not check or question whether the bombs were functional before setting the timer, so far as I can tell.

    I suspect that the Doctor either a) knew that, even if the timer reached zero, the bombs wouldn’t detonate, or b) nipped off in his Tardis to do a bit of sonicking and make sure that they damn well wouldn’t. So I think the “if they still work” line was a big indication of what he was up to.

    I grappled with why the Doctor would maintain the illusion of jeopardy, if he intended to disable the nukes. He says that the future of humanity “depends on the choice that is made right here, right now”. Is he lying? He doesn’t explicitly state that humanity’s future has anything to do with the survival or otherwise of the moon dragon.

    So what if he knows that the moon dragon will survive either way, but that the women’s own futures (and subsequent impact on the world) will change depending on what they decide?

    After the not-nuking of the moon egg, Lundvik starts the new space programme and Courtney becomes President of the USA. Would either of those things have happened in the same way if the Doctor hadn’t placed the burden of (albeit illusory) responsibility in their hands?

    And as to Clara – well she keeps having helpful flashbacks that save her life. My money is on something from Kill The Moon cropping up later on as a life- (or world-) saving memory. In fact, I can imagine her in a future crisis remembering the line “Some decisions are too important not to make on your own” – or even telling the Doctor to take the stabilisers off his bike 🙂

    x

    #33251
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @badwulf I’m developing an addiction to TV tropes now, by the way 🙂

    @fatmaninabox

    It totally spoils the story if you can’t just *believe* in the fatman. 🙂
    Ooh, I like it. Can I adopt that as my motto? 😀

    (Tea through nose moment.)

    x

    #33252
    lisa @lisa

    !idiotsavon I like the way you think! RE: the Doctor was up to something
    I had a notion that scene of the Doctor abruptly leaving was possibly a smokescreen but I couldn’t wrap my head around how – same thing goes for Clara getting so bent out of shape at him for doing that- It was quite a surprise considering all the time that they have been traveling together and suddenly she seems to be losing her “faith” in him [ a lot of folks here seem to have felt the same thing} interestingly every episode thus far references faith some how some way- eventually I guess we all will know how it all gets pulled together and I am as curious as anyone to see how it all will shake out

    #33253
    janetteB @janetteb

    @mudlark, that was an excellent explanation of the science behind the moon egg. Well done. I was especially pleased with your theory that the second “moon” was a cloned egg and I had thought there were no cloning references in this episode. (I am still suspicious that Orson is a clone of Danny or that they are both clones hence the later’s lack of parents.) Danny’s “bad day” was almost certainly a throw away line. I know there no shortage of “bad days” in a teacher’s working life however that hasn’t stopped me wondering just what happened and if there is more to that than simply badly behaved students. It was implied that it was an especially bad “bad day”.

    I neglected to note who it was that spotted the miniaturisation reference, ie in this story the humans are the miniatures in comparison to the moon-dragon so we do have a possible cloning reference and a miniaturisation reference.

    @Purofilion I hope the coffee has had the desired effect even if it is only instant. (I am suffering instant too, being too lazy to grind the beans etc. I leave that to “he is is at work”.)

    Talked the Pres’ of the local fan society last night. He was rather ambilivent about this series. He said that the reaction from the fan group is very mixed. Other friends however were really enthused about the stories thus far. There was no discussion of bonkers theories though as Dr Who was “off topic”.

    Cheers

    Janette

     

    #33254
    Anonymous @

    @badwulf – Master of straplines for @fatmaninabox

    A fatman conveniently packaged. 🙂

    @pedant

    @thommck (LOL at the thought from pedant of waiting to see the creature that comes to fertilise it!).

    Thats not a meteor shower, it’s Moon Sperm!

    NO Wonder the Doctor lies! 😯

    Those aren’t bacteria, it’s Moon Crabs!

    @scaryb – You found the series arc!!!

    That explains Courtney’s chicken, Dragon in the moon, and “those aren’t tears Clara, ‘It’s Soup Time!’”  😆

    #33255
    Anonymous @

    @brewski – I like the training idea a lot too.  I’m worried if Clara doesn’t become a TL, then I will have to rethink the whole episode again. But maybe I can still believe the Doctor just changed his mind about finishing the training. 😉

     the stakes would be too high if she failed the test.

    The high stakes make it better to me. It would mean that 12 has total faith in Clara to do the right thing. Many people say that Clara should know the Doctor very well and understand why he left her alone (but I’m not sure she remembers the time stream or not), but I think the Doctor definitely remembers what Clara has done before. So it is reasonable to me, that 12 was certain Clara would do the right thing.

    But you could be right that stake were too high, even for the Doctor. In that case, I like Idiotsavon’s ideas.

    @idiotsavon

    I think the “if they still work” line was a big indication of what he was up to.

    I can believe that the Doctor might have sonic’d bombs to make sure they wouldn’t go off. Or maybe sonic’d the detonator might be more logical.

    As far as explaining how the Doctor knew to come back at the right time. All he had to do is look at the time left on the detonator before he left. If he knew the time that would be interesting because, the Doctor arrived a couple seconds early, so maybe he was prepared to get blown up too?

    So I don’t think the Doctor did anything wrong by leaving. But from Clara’s point of view, 12 abandoned her, so I believe she would be pretty mad.

    @thommck – Great post and thx to you and @cathannabel for the VM explanation.  That’s another problem solved for me, since I the Doctor would never turn Courtney loose with those things. 😯

    #33256
    Whisht @whisht

    Eel, very early, head cold and still only seen the episode once so forgive me if some of this is dumb if contradicted by what is said in the episode!

    Just wondering if the people being ‘judged’ are humanity.
    The Doctor has a great line about how humans would spread across the universe, but he could equally have been describing a virus! Humans can be quite nasty/ violent.

    Could humanity’s vote actually be something that means we’re not ready to go back to space.

    We need to learn compassion – to care.

    And could that be Clara’s future role? To stop gallivanting around having fun, and do the far more important work of being a teacher. Teaching kids/ generations to care.
    If/ when she leaves it’s to do more important things than being with the Doctor.

    Just a thought.

    Oh, and is being President “special” – perhaps!
    And another person taught to care.

    #33257
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @bluesqueakpip

    The Moment’s punishment is still in operation: the Doctor still has to live.

    Yes, and not only that, but eventually he has to face his people, the Lords of Time, for whom time stream one (Gallifrey destroyed) and time stream two (Gallifrey saved in a bubble universe) will be equally real. How will they judge him, murderer of the children of Gallifrey and saviour of the universe from the Time War?

    When Twelve asks Clara whether or not he is a good man, I imagine he is bracing himself for the judgement of his people.

    Others will have to advocate for him if it does come to a second trial of a Time Lord, because in his hearts he still condemns himself.

    I think Listen is still my favourite episode of the season, because I found the terror of the child Doctor of things that live under the bed and the terror of the adult War Doctor of the weight on his shoulders, both in that barn somewhere in the outlands of Gallifrey to be a real emotional punch.

    How could anyone endure after such a decision as the one the War Doctor is faced with? Living on is a punishment indeed.

    #33258
    Anonymous @

    Excitement folks:  young Ilion, recently studying moon & tides proclaims it’s a blood orange moon tonight (really: I have no clue) with a lunar eclipse. Unfortunately, we’ve a storm approaching and so it’s cloud cover. Maybe no orange egg tonight!

    Kindest, puro

    PS @whisht yes, that’s true too -a test in a way. I wonder if the Dr’s need to fix things means he needs to ‘let go and let Clara’ – see her as ‘just’  human (still exceptional) not only as The Imposs Girl-others above mentioned this.

    #33259
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @janetteb    Thanks for the compliment!   I had fun thinking it up 🙂

    As regards the self-cloning part of my theory, the Doctor said the moon dragon was unique, which might mean only that he had never come across one before – in which case it could simply be very rare and the only one of its kind in this region of the universe. In either case, the only way it could reproduce would be by parthenogenesis  (lit. ‘virgin birth’ from the Greek) of some kind.

    After I had posted the theory it occurred to me that the debris from the breaking of the ‘crust’ of moon rock around the egg would not need to be pulverised to render it harmless to earth.  It would have been caught by the gravitational pull of the new egg (which would have been very strong when the egg was still in its super-dense form , before it inflated) and formed once again a protective casing.  Perhaps moon dragon eggs have a sticky surface to hold such a casing in place.

    Re. Danny’s ‘bad day’; I took it that he was referring to the bad day which had led to his decision to leave the army, which was clearly a traumatic experience, not to a bad day he had experienced since he had last seen Clara.

    #33260
    BadWulf @badwulf

    Has anyone here played Legend of Zelda: Link’s Awakening? I am having another bonkers theory moment that was inspired by thinking about this game and the latest series of Doctor Who.

    From ZeldaWiki:

    The Wind Fish is a character featured in Link’s Awakening. He is a large, flying whale who makes his home atop Mount Tamaranch on Koholint Island, inside of a giant egg. He serves as the main focus of the storyline in Link’s Awakening.
    The Wind Fish is a deity that is the creator of Koholint Island. During the course of Link’s Awakening, it is revealed that Koholint Island is a dream of the Wind Fish. The Wind Fish can only be woken with the Eight Instruments of the Sirens.
    Should the Wind Fish wake, the island and all its inhabitants will vanish. This presents a moral dilemma for Link, as to finish the game, Koholint and all of the characters living on it must disappear. This is unavoidable upon beating the game, however, as Link only definitively learns the true nature of the Wind Fish after the final Nightmare has been defeated.

    The idea that, a world exists inside of the dreams of a giant entity that sleeps inside an egg makes me wonder if Missy’s heaven might be something similar.

    Not sure where it could go from there, though…

    #33261
    Anonymous @

    Some levity here but I recall a Malcom Tucker line whereupon after a ‘how did you get here so fast?” question he responded with:

    “I’m am everywhere. I am the egg-man”.  Seems even he could foretell.

    Also, “you’re the one with egg on your face -with over easy slop”. Now, that might be going into yucky territory as not everybody is a fan of Tucker-isms. But still, I think I changed a few key words as protection….:)

    As for Clara’s soufflé- we have  a new connection to that now 🙂

    @juniperfish yes I’d go with that too -it had emotional punch as you say & it was an authentic portrayal of each character -lies, truths, deceptions and fragility mixed with compassion.

    This later episode and perhaps Listen also, evidenced that wonderful phrase: “a true measure of a man [woman] is how they behave when things are other than good.” It applies to Clara in Kill The Moon as well as The War Doctor (seen in Listen) and Doctors 10-11 in The Day of the Doctor. All are tested and in the end it seems like the common axiom fits: the most costly disruptions occur when something we take completely for granted stops working or just disappears -like the Doctor.

    It certainly disrupted Clara -she was, naturally, all over the place having expected the Moon to live, or, failing that, needing, really needing, her Doctor to help. Or did she just want assistance having been so used to it – and having helped the Doctor?

    I wonder how hard (and tragically) the Doctor is trying to disconnect himself from the decisions human’s make. I recall 10 in his first Christmas Special shouting out “[the earth] is defended!!”

    #33262

    @juniperfish

    When Twelve asks Clara whether or not he is a good man, I imagine he is bracing himself for the judgement of his people.

    But they have already judged him and found him worthy of a whole new set of regenerations. “If you love him, and you should…”.

    #33263
    janetteB @janetteb

    Have just watched the egg turn red. There is light cloud making it darker but still very impressive. Son is speculating on how much more impressive it would be to be on the moon watching the “earth rise”.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #33264
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @janetteb Have just watched the egg turn red. There is light cloud making it darker but still very impressive. Son is speculating on how much more impressive it would be to be on the moon watching the “earth rise”.

    You might like this!

    Earthrise: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Earthrise.ogv

    #33265
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @pedant

    True! But not the same as facing them all, his Time Lord people, those who he killed in the previous time line, and receiving judgement and/ or forgiveness in person.

    Clearly at the moment, Twelve feels he is not worthy of those new regenerations. And he is stuck, replaying or acting out the trauma of the War Doctor’s choice (or forcing Clara to re-enact it) over and over and over…

    #33266

    @juniperfish

    killed in the previous time line

    Let’s not a start that one again!

    Incidentally, there will be a Moon Sperm(tm) outbreak later this moth courtesy of Halley’s Comet.

    #33267
    Serahni @serahni

    I have a lot of catching up to do, you guys have been busy whilst I’ve been buried under school work!  I read something just then about The Doctor having faith in Clara and believing absolutely, when he left her behind, that she would make the right decision.  I don’t disagree with that, I think he’s shown time and time again that he depends on her and has the utmost faith in her, but not just to do the right thing.  Part of what has started to feel a bit odd about this series is that it’s almost Clara Who, she’s the one in the driver’s seat, and I think that’s probably not an accidental metaphor.  I don’t think it’s just that The Doctor trusts Clara implicitly to do the right thing, but perhaps he doesn’t trust himself not to do the wrong thing.  There’s something going on with him, something buried and only revealed in the nuances of his expression at times, but if Rule #1 is that The Doctor lies, then perhaps another on the list should be ‘The Doctor doesn’t always get it right’.  I refer you back to my previous example of Waters of Mars.  He might not have screwed up history but he surely didn’t really walk away the hero from that particular decision.

    This is a Doctor who has all-but admitted that he is scared.  He has shown some consideration for his moral status and seems altogether too eager to stand aside and let brutal practicality determine his choices.  His faith in himself has always been on shaky ground but maybe he really has lost his nerve this time.

    #33268
    janetteB @janetteb

    @serahni I would disagree that the Doctor has lost his nerve.  He was unable to made the decision because he recognised that it was not his right to do so. His choice was to save the creature but in doing so he would put the entire population of earth in jeopardy. He is not brutally practicle but pragmatic. It is often more a case of “Don’t waste time griving over someone who you can’t save when those you can save need you.” This Doctor just doesn’t always wear his hearts on his sleave as eleven and ten did which is why Clara is getting so angry with him but the hearts are still there. He often seems distracted, as though his mind is focussed on another, bigger, problem, something yet to be revealed maybe involving the blackboard calculations and the books which he places so deliberately on the stairs.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #33269
    Brewski @brewski

    @fatmaninabox

    I was watching Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS on Sunday and noticed that the plate used in Kill the Moon was also used in JttCotT – it was covering Clara when we first see her in the wrecked TARDIS. In all likelihood it was just a re-used prop

    Wow, and I thought I was being sharp-eyed! Yes, I’m afraid a reused prop is more likely. Though not as much fun. Unless of course it is the props department deliberatly Bonk-ing us for fun. 😛

    Moon Sperm! Yikes! I just hope none of it gets ‘On The Sofa’. It’s harder to remove than fur and glitter

    Well, it WOULD answer the Chicken and Egg question and which came first…

     

    #33270
    Brewski @brewski

    @purofilion
    @fatmaninabox and @brewski The metal plate could be a re-prop but I recall in RoS that a large metal plate -similar to the one in Fires Of Pompeii was used. Together with a whole lot of these (needed by Phil Davis’ character), they helped the ‘monsters’ to awaken. Then the plate in Journey to the Centre of the Earth and now in Kill the Moon -either Gallifreyan or manipulated by someone else (possibly the props guy!). The fact it flew in a perfect ‘arc’ and then shortly after, Clara presses the other button and the Doctor arrives “come in you, 1,2,3 – in you go for a minute”). Wonderful stuff.

    Just working on the notion that the Doctor wouldn’t really leave them. Maybe he was there the whole time using the Invisibility Watch….

     

    #33271
    Brewski @brewski

    @janetteb
    (I am still suspicious that Orson is a clone of Danny or that they are both clones hence the later’s lack of parents.) Danny’s “bad day” was almost certainly a throw away line.

    Unless Orson is a descendant of Clara. In which case he could have been having a Bad Heir Day

     

    #33272
    Anonymous @

    @brewski

    Just working on the notion that the Doctor wouldn’t really leave them. Maybe he was there the whole time using the Invisibility Watch…

    Ah, you beat me to it! I was just having similar thoughts.

    You’re right, it’s unlikely The Doctor would abandon them to face either a fiery death or a possible attack from the Moon Spiders.

    We know The Doctor has an invisibility watch and we also know, from The Impossible Astronaut, that the TARDIS can also be made invisible. So it’s possible he never left them at all but instead was disabling the bombs and/or detonator as suggested up-stream by @idiotsavon .

    Unless of course it is the props department deliberatly Bonk-ing us for fun.

    Or The Doctor, still invisible, used it to cover the hull breach – maybe he hoped that Clara would recognise it as being from the TARDIS?

    #33274
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    @fatmaninabox  I agree with you proposal that perhaps the doctor never actually left and I too thought that he had somehow made the Tardis invisible. Had forgotten the previous instances where he had made the Tardis invisible.

    One wonders are we going to get a recap at some point a little like in The marriage of river where we get a recap of certain events but from a different angle which gives them a whole new meaning.

    #33275
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @devilishrobby, @fatmaninabox, @brewski, @Oh, everybody, really…

    It might be strange, given my predilection for bonkers theories, to say this, but:

    I think we might be reading too much into this episode. Clearly, Clara’s angry confrontation with the Doctor is crucial, but how are we to read that scene? I would argue that the Doctor is not lying, and everything he says to Clara is said without guile or a hidden agenda. In fact, it goes back to a point I made upstream somewhere that unlike 11, this Doctor does not obviously lie.

    If you watch that final confrontation again, and focus on Capaldi, I think is is clear that he means what he says. Indeed, if it is revealed that he and the TARDIS were invisible, I tend to think it would cheapen him and what he says to Clara, and I, for one, would be disappointed by such a reveal.

    This was an episode that wanted its target audience (10-year olds) to think about moral questions, and it did it in an entertaining way, with a space dragon and the moon as an egg that, from @thommck‘s account of watching it with his 10-year olds, was accepted and enjoyed by its target audience. As it was by those of us who could tap into the 10-year old lurking in us all.

    But was it hiding a deeper and complex story (a la, of Lake Silencio proportions)? This time, I suspect not.

    And the 10-year old lurking within the ageing Blenkinsop frame is looking forward to an adventure on the Orient Express…in space!

     

    #33278
    Anonymous @

    @blenkinsopthebrave after watching it again, I agree with you. Usually, even with the Moff, if there’s something hidden, we’ve missed etc…then a close up  of the Dr is shown. Here, he looked quite embarrassed (a superb actor), nervous and angry all at once, particularly when Clara started her ‘scene’ (as in making one). The Doctor almost reared back as if he had been slapped then appeared both annoyed and ‘huh, what?’

    So, I think he was confused by Clara. I just woke up and I can’t think beyond the simplest words…

    Cheers to you, puro

    #33279
    Anonymous @

    I was watching the beginning of ‘Into the Dalek’ after watching the end of ‘Kill The Moon’  -again – Danny says “I had a bad day” and at the beginning the cadet/student asks Danny “have you ever killed a man when it wasn’t in war – or if the person wasn’t on the other side?” (paraphrasing poorly) but Danny distracts with maths answers and then a single tear falls.

    I imagine his “really bad day” had something to do with this conversation in the classroom in ‘Into the Dalek’. No doubt others had figured this out but I’d forgotten or hadn’t made the puzzle.

    Also I do wonder if Clara is Missy not just from ‘Kill the Moon’ but in ItD the Doctor says “ah your hips are fine; you’re built like a man”. Are these throwaway lines just that? Much like the comment/pun “bolt hole, hole for a bolt: does no-one get that”.

    #33281
    Cryptonomica @cryptonomica

    @purofilion  The conversation in Into the Dalek goes like this:

    Danny is giving the class homework, and finishes by asking “Any Questions?”

    One of the boys raises his hand and asks “Sir, Have you ever killed a man?”

    As the rest of the class groans, Danny replies, “I was a soldier, there were other soldiers and some of weren’t on our side.  I shall leave the rest to your imagination.  And please, think of another question.”

    The same boy asks, “OK, have you ever killed somebody who wasn’t a soldier?”

    Danny doesn’t answer, but stares the class and begins to repeat his homework instructions.  A single tear rolls down his cheek.

     

    So, it appears that his bad day had something to do with the killing (intentionally or otherwise) of civilians.

    #33282
    Brewski @brewski

    @blenkinsopthebrave
    everybody, really…
    It might be strange, given my predilection for bonkers theories, to say this, but:
    I think we might be reading too much into this episode.

    Much as I hate to admit it, you’re probably right.

    Although I still think…

    No, No! You are right. If there was a deeper manipulation it would be as you put it: tending to cheapen the Doctor and what he says to Clara.

    I’m going to resolve to not read to much into… to… nope.

    Sorry, it’s never going to happen. I can’t do it. I’m afraid I am doomed to always read too much into things!

    But I do appreciate being reeled in a little, from time to time…. 🙂

    You’re right about next ep, though. I suspect we’re all going to go major bonkers…

     

    #33286
    Whisht @whisht

    @purofilion and @cryptonomica in I think the same episode Clara calls Danny a “ladykiller” as a bit of fun, but he reacts badly.

    I think he killed a woman as part of his ‘bad day’.

    Still haven’t rewatched Kill the Moon, but really liked how when Clara is with Danny on the sofa, he’s taken the role of a soldier’s spouse – understanding that their loved one has to be away in a dangerous environment, but providing stability and love when they’re home ‘on leave’.

    #33289
    Anonymous @

    @juniperfish – I hope the vitamins are helping you get well. Glad you are back. I’m not the only multiple time line believer in the Whoniverse now. 😀

     Twelve feels he is not worthy of those new regenerations.

    I never considered that before. It is definitely possible. I’m not sure what is wrong with the Doctor if anything. But I thought the new Doctor would be different than the other AG Doctors, and 12 is very different.

     My choice for why would be as a result of changing the Time War; but I think living beyond the natural life span of TL is a good reason too. Especially since 12 seems to have so many of the previous Doctors (BG and AG) in his personality, it would take longer to sort through them all to find who is the real Doctor 12.

     he is stuck, replaying or acting out the trauma of the War Doctor’s choice (or forcing Clara to re-enact it) over and over and over…

    I disagree that is a punishment for the Doctor (like @pedant said whoever was behind the crack already forgave him).  However, I think Clara’s indecisiveness about what to do, after the Doctor leaves her, is strong evidence that she doesn’t remember the Time Stream.

    In that case, the Doctor might just be forcing Clara to go through the same situations she helped him with in the Time Stream, as a way to refresh her memories or show her what she is capable of. The Claricles were all pieces of Clara, so 12 already knows what she will do in those situations. Maybe 12 has to make Clara do it over and over and over, like you say, until she learns or believes what she can do.

    Someone up stream said that this series has almost been Clara Who (@Brewski @serahni). I’m pretty sure Clara has been saving the day in every episode (except Listen – but the Teller in Listen could remove mental blocks too) So every episode works for the  “Doctor making Clara remember the TS theory”.

    #33297
    nick1235 @nick1235

    Good evening dear fellow Whovians, I just re-watch the episode 30 minutes ago, I actually despise Clara’s attitude, somehow I dont like how she react to how the 13th behave.

     

    Anyway another theory time, I don’t know if someone mentions this yet but at the beginning of the episode when Clara and Doctor was discussing about Woods, he said ” that was ages ago ” and didn’t seem like he remember her, but we don’t know how long from the Caretaker’s episode date to Kill The Moon’s date and as we know, Doctor is a time traveller, which means he can travel a long time for months before this Kill The Moon episode start, and maybe he’s been playing with Danny ( judging by how wise he is at the end of the episode ) all are bonkers, but the part “that was ages ago” made the arcs of this story a lil bit weak.

     

    But overall not a bad episode, I like the lines, although the slow motion part really did made the shot look likes a cheap movie. It was supposed to be thrilling but the slow-mo just kills it 😛

     

    Anyway, cheers to whoever you are that kindly read my post, Have a nice day!

    #33298
    nick1235 @nick1235

    Good evening dear fellow Whovians, I just re-watch the episode 30 minutes ago, I actually despise Clara’s attitude, somehow I dont like how she react to how the 13th behave.

     

    Anyway another theory time, I don’t know if someone mentions this yet but at the beginning of the episode when Clara and Doctor was discussing about Woods, he said ” that was ages ago ” and didn’t seem like he remember her, but we don’t know how long from the Caretaker’s episode date to Kill The Moon’s date and as we know, Doctor is a time traveller, which means he can travel a long time for months before this Kill The Moon episode start, and maybe he’s been playing with Danny ( judging by how wise he is at the end of the episode ) all are bonkers, but the part “that was ages ago” made the arcs of this story a lil bit weak.

     

    But overall not a bad episode, I like the lines, although the slow motion part really did made the shot look likes a cheap movie. It was supposed to be thrilling but the slow-mo just kills it 😛

     

    Anyway, cheers to whoever you are that kindly read my post, Have a nice day!

    #33302
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @nick1235

    Anyway another theory time, I don’t know if someone mentions this yet but at the beginning of the episode when Clara and Doctor was discussing about Woods, he said ” that was ages ago ” and didn’t seem like he remember her, but we don’t know how long from the Caretaker’s episode date to Kill The Moon’s date and as we know, Doctor is a time traveller, which means he can travel a long time for months before this Kill The Moon episode start

    It’s a good point and is worth dwelling on. In Listen Clara asks the Doctor “how long have you been travelling alone” as he’s talking about creatures under the bed and talking to himself.

    The decision (and it must be conscious) by SM to make the latter part of Amy/Rory and the entire run of Clara see them be based at home (with day trips) makes for some delicious possibilities. Their meetings may not, exactly, be in the same order. Hence in Listen, Clara relates a comment that Courtney made about her face during her dinner with Danny (“it’s too wide, so I’m distracted”). The Doctor makes the same joke later, but as if he’s recalling having been told it. Perhaps, subjectively, Listen occurs later in the Doctors Timeline than say, this episode.

    After I suggested this on the G blogs during series 7a, the observant and marvellous @chickenelly worked out that for the Doctor, he may have slipped away, bored by the wait in Power of Three, met an earlier version of Amy and Rory and had their adventure in A Town Called Mercy. It was to do with the props that dressed their apartment, and it was completely brilliant. And, I believe true.

    The reason that Doctor 12 and Clara may be baffled by each other is that they are not experiencing the same story in the same order.

    #33303
    thommck @thommck

    @nick1235 Is there an echo in here? 😉

    A lot of people have said how they thought the slo-mo shot was cheesey but in Time Heist the slo-mo shot seemed to be one of the highlights! I actually think the reverse of that. Go figure!?

    When the Doctor says “that was ages ago” I think what you deduced is exactly what you are meant to think. He’s doing a lot of stuff inbetween visiting Clara. This may be a reason for her feeling a bit distant towards him.

     

    Why do you despise Clara’s attitude? I presume you are talking about the scene near the end where she leaves the TARDIS. I could completely understand where she was coming from. How would you have reacted?

    #33305
    DomplakVSgames @domplakvsgames

    crara will come back, won’t she?

    cause she needs to help the doctor!

    #33306
    nick1235 @nick1235

    @phaseshift

     

    Ahh, I knew that I would miss something like that, thanks for bringing it up, if it’s so, then from which doctor (all over in time and space) are we watching?

     

    @thommck

    I don’t know what happen to the series, but I think they found some invention called Slow-Motion and starts abusing it over and over again 😀 I mean the timing isn’t really catches on, I was expecting something more uprising than Slow-Motion, It’s not that it’s bad, I think it’s just unnecessary.
    <p style=”text-align: center;”>When the Doctor says “that was ages ago” I think what you deduced is exactly what you are meant to think. He’s doing a lot of stuff inbetween visiting Clara. This may be a reason for her feeling a bit distant towards him.</p>
    <p style=”text-align: center;”></p>
    <p style=”text-align: left;”>If it’s him being a lil bit distant towards Clara, I can cope with that, but another possibilities is, the Doctor might’ve been gone for days and/or weeks if not months, but visited Clara prior to the Caretaker, from past experience, we know the doctor is a bit sloppy when it comes to time, like when the 11th with Amy, or the 9th with Bad Wolf. Somehow makes me think about “the girl in the fireplace”.</p>
    <p style=”text-align: left;”>Moving on, I wouldn’t know how to react to that, maybe pissed, and it would be naive for me to say that “I will go out and enjoy the new moon and it’s beauty” but then again, it gives Clara a lil bit of character in that role, that she’s not just another human being that can actually move on from something big like that. The more I think of it, the more it makes sense (for the role of the character). Lots of past companion got sunk in so quick, they forgot how to react, like Rory ( the boy who waited ) he waited 2000 years (or so) and then at the power of three nothing happens ( again perhaps there’s this point where we miss Rory contemplating about this matter.</p>

    #33307
    doctorwhocraze465 @doctorwhocraze465

    it was a great episode, as always. steven moffat has been working with some really good writers so far this series. this was very interesting as the choice for clara was a shocking end but i knew she would always save the moon as she knew that she was down there with Danny pink and kids. however i think that if she has met her kids before she has actually had them this will cause a problem because everything will go a horrible mess!! she will think that she needs to settle with Danny to complete the jigsaw where as time is not in a straight line as we found out with matt smith. however this is just my opinion and first post so i could be wrong. please give me feed-back via my e-mail. i can’t wait for the next episode, “mummy on the orient express” as it looks quite chilling and reminds me of voyage of the damned (christmas special) in a way. can’t wait will out whovians.

    #33308
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @doctorwhocraze465

    Welcome!

    I knew she would always save the moon as she knew that she was down there with Danny pink and kids

    Yes, was meaning to raise Clara’s motives for aborting the detonation. I’ve been happily thinking she didn’t want to sacrifice the little moon dragon.

    But what if her thoughts at the time weren’t entirely selfless? I know that if someone said to me “Either die or press a button bla bla bla” I wouldn’t really care about the “bla bla bla” bit. I’d just press the button. (I wouldn’t make a good companion.)

    And yes, if she’s thinking of Future Clara down on earth, that’s two selves that she has to worry about.

    As for your request for feedback: For my part, thumbs up! 🙂 But please would you separate your thoughts and ideas into paragraphs? That will make your posts a lot easier to read 🙂

    x

    #33309
    Oblique @oblique

    The creature hatching above planet earth was ignorant  it’s survival hung in the balance.

    I like this vulnerability.

    In many ways the creature reminded me of the Doctor in Trial of a Time Lord and the life or death scenario facing him. Rebirth and renewal are common enough tropes in Who.

    I thought I saw something dragon-like in the creature, and they live an awfully long time you know. The Doctor said it was unique,  just as he is unique… and alone.

    Incidentally where did it go? Does it have any further role to play?

    As an allegory it holds less significance to Clara than current speculation suggests. Surely not another pregnant companion so soon? If she is, then I’d go so far as to say her character’s storyline was a potential arc, written originally for Amy Pond.  From what I saw of Amy, she and Clara are almost indistinguishable.

    Oblique  x

    #33310
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @oblique

    Incidentally where did it go? Does it have any further role to play?

    I’ve been asking myself the same question.

    If it does come back, it will probably save something important, thus confirming Clara in her decision.

    However, I think it would be far more interesting – in a philosophy/ethics kind of way – if it came back as a malevolent monster that had to be killed: Begging the question whether saving it in the first place was the right thing to do.

    But. Family show and all that.

    x

    #33314
    Anonymous @

    Ooh nice @oblique and @idiotsavon @thommck this idea, firstly that the visits of the Dr are occurring out of order -we don’t see them but I wonder if every time the Doctor walks ‘centre-stage’ or ‘stage left’ and speaks to us (in the author voice) whether he’s including us in the conversation which helps determine his thought position & thus conveys this to us?

    I’m not sure.

    Amy and Clara virtually indistinguishable-yes, I felt that too; last year particularly but I think she’s a little different now, her character has clarified (like butter) 🙂

    #33315
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @idiotsavon

    However, I think it would be far more interesting – in a philosophy/ethics kind of way – if it came back as a malevolent monster that had to be killed: Begging the question whether saving it in the first place was the right thing to do.

    You can get that on just about any current TV show. Consequential ethics (basically a subsection of Utilitarianism) is really ‘in’ at the moment; possibly because it allows you to kill whoever you like on a ‘least harm’ basis. Steven Moffat’s ongoing arc of ‘there is no such thing as a universally monstrous race – when you get down to the individual level’ and ‘killing innocents is always wrong’ is far more interesting.

    In my opinion, of course. Which is rarely humble. 😈

    But seriously – what do you want to teach the kids? That if you treat these blasted Space Dragons [Insert ‘alien’ of choice] decently they just turn around and stab you in the back?

    Or would you rather the kids learnt that some Silurians are bigoted, nasty and untrustworthy – but others aren’t? And that while Sontarians may be militaristic, some individuals can be honourable and end up on your side? Or that while the Doctor may not be particularly fond of religion in general he can be good friends with the Mother Superious, and that the Order of the Silence would rather fight the Daleks or the Weeping Angels than the Doctor?

    Why did Clara slap the Doctor in Into the Dalek? Because he did what The Doctor should never do; write off an entire race as irredeemably evil. That was not what they’d learnt. And it isn’t what the kids should learn, either.

    Because that’s the road to Hell.

    #33316
    lisa @lisa

    @purofilion I think all of us were “Clara'”-fied in this episode re: how it seemed to wrap so much around her character – 🙂

    #33321
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    Hi @bluesqueakpip
    I don’t watch much TV (when I’m on my own, the TV is mostly off; when my fiance is home I think I’m what’s called a “Sky Sports widow”.) So no clue about what’s “in” TV-wise.

    I think perhaps my comment sounded a bit more provocative (and indeed utilitarian) than I intended.

    At the moment, I can imagine earthlings everywhere in 2049 thinking “Thank goodness we didn’t kill the cute little moon dragon”, and possibly Lundvik and Courtney getting some sort of medal.

    But if said Moon Dragon comes back, fully grown, to destroy the Earth, I can imagine the same earthlings saying “I KNEW we should have killed the evil moon dragon. We’ll have those medals back.”

    And for me, that’s where it gets interesting. Trying to find some sort of universal ethical truth in a maelstrom of human fickleness and self-interest.

    For the record, I think that, even if the egg turns into Satan incarnate, saving it was ALWAYS the right thing to do.

    I think we met a very similar problem in Into The Dalek: Saving the “good” Dalek, regardless of the possible (indeed life-threatening) consequences.

    And I think we should be teaching children – well, all the things you said, really. Everybody is an individual. Everybody deserves a chance.

    Which is why I don’t think Dr Who will (or should) bring the Moon Dragon back as an evil monster. I would just find it more interesting (and challenging) personally.

    I don’t think we’re so very far apart on this, to be honest.

    x

    #33323
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    Also: As I said, I don’t watch much TV, but am open to recommendations 🙂

    x

    #33329
    janetteB @janetteb

    The concept of the space dragon is so utterly bonkers it would certainly be interesting to see a future writer take the idea and develop it into something plausible. A life form living in vacuum would be so totally alien to anything we could understand that it throws up all sort of interesting possibilities.  We are encountering lots of new life forms this  series but most seem to be one story only. I think the dragon is the least likely to ever reappear but perhaps the most promising. Maybe it is a good subject for some fan fic. Imagine a space ship encountering one of those out in space. Whoops. Just got taken out by a feather!!

    Also interesting to note, and purely random I am sure, but thus far  this series we have found out that Robin Hood, Hollywood style, was real and there are dragons.

    Cheers

    Janette

     

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