Kill the Moon

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@jimbomcmaster

Not everyone agrees with me, but this is my take on it –

http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/kill-the-moon/page/3/#post-33087

The dilemma is whether or not to kill a new life, possibly one of its kind, IN CASE it proves harmful to the earth. The right decision is to let nature take its course – the moon returns, environmental crisis over and mankind is revitalised in its outlook and sense of adventure. But it has to be the humans who make the decision, not have it imposed on them. They have to take the leap of faith (and understand that there’s an alternative to “nuke it”)  in order to grow up a bit as a species.

@Purofilion All’s not right with Clara – she’s juggling, she’s stressed and she’s outright lying to each of the people she’s closest to.  Her neglected flat suggests to me that she’s spending more time out of “real life” than in it.  That’s why she snaps at the end of this one.  She’s also annoyed with the Doctor for making her work out the dilemma for herself (tho he clearly signposted it before nipping off), for being right, and for not prioritising humans (and Clara) over the moon dragon. And there’s the reaction to having just come through an extremely stressful situation.  This Doctor nips in and out of her life when it suits him, without considering whether it works for her.  She no longer has the purpose she had in series 7 – “I was born to save the Doctor”, including being the one to call out the Timelords on giving him the extra regenerations. She doesn’t feel as “special” to this Doctor as she did, and she’s certainly not the boss.

[Anonymous @]

@jimbomcmaster – If the Doctor was testing Clara, then both of your main problems are solved, imo.

But the actual idea of the episode, the moral dilemma, confuses me and leaves me cold.

There is definitely a moral dilemma (a big one like @scaryb said), but I agree with most of what you said.   I’m sure there is a difference between the choices, but it made my head hurt to figure it out, so I didn’t try for very long before looking for another reason for the scenario. 🙂

Even though there was a moral dilemma, that doesn’t mean it had to be the real purpose behind the episode. The whole point might have been testing Clara.

If you think about the problem like that, a seemingly unsolvable moral dilemma would be a great test for Time Lordiness (Ladyness?).

 The Doctor wouldn’t run off, and in fact would, as he usually does, try to save the day.

I agree. But it makes perfect sense if the Doctor was testing Clara, with the bumpers off.

So that is my answer for the purpose of the episode, for now. I like it, but something might come up in an episode or forum post that changes my mind.

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

I have been thinking about this issue that some people seem to think this weeks story has a pro-life agenda.

IMHO I don’t think that was actually intentional, what I actually think it was supposed to be about is that in the doctors opinion/experience the human race has a trait to mistrust or try to destroy anything that is alien. Look at what happened with PM Harriet Jones and the Zigarax Spaceship (sorry if if I’ve spelt it wrong ), and early Torchwood`s attitude to anything alien i.e.: if its alien its ours.

I think the whole idea of the  episode as well as his giving  Clara a lesson in some of the difficult decisions he has had to make in the past, is a sub-plot of grow up humans learn to live with your  “neighbours”  you are going to meet a lot more when you get out there.

Now I am not saying that Clara actually needed this lesson, we are talking about the woman who jumped into his time stream to save him over and over and also talked him into making a different decision about Gallifrey. This doctor definitely has all the arrogance of his first regeneration that he has superior knowledge and to a degree is acting like a disappointed parent saying i know you can do better.

Hope this all makes sense

with kindest regards  Devilish

[geoffers @geoffers]

@scaryb – She’s also annoyed with the Doctor for making her work out the dilemma for herself (tho he clearly signposted it before nipping off), for being right, and for not prioritising humans (and Clara) over the moon dragon.

to add to this, i think that clara, in her “official” capacity as the one who cares (for the doctor, so he doesn’t have to), might have just been a wee bit pissed off because of the enormity of the “you care for this so i don’t have to” that he dumped into her lap, out of the blue. which is to say, perhaps she took offense this time, because he (seemingly) stopped even pretending to care about the fates of so many humans (or even the space dragon baby). the abruptness of his leaving it in her lap explains her anger. or so i think, at any rate…

but i do think, also, that danny’s influence has driven a bit of a wedge between them. maybe not maliciously, or intentionally, but the doctor is the “third wheel” in clara’s love life, more and more each time he appears. there’s no relationship on earth that will allow such a high level of friendship (and adventure) to persist, if the relationship is to survive. or am i being overly pessimistic?! lol…

🙂

[geoffers @geoffers]

to whomever originally came up with the idea that clara may be some sort of “time lady,” thank you! i think it goes all the way back to ‘the snowmen,’ when she reveals that she was born behind a clock face? i’ve been thinking this is a good direction in which to take her character, whether she acquires her “timey-ness” because of her travels in (or clinging to!) the tardis, or whether she’s a chameleon arched timelord. or ____________ (insert other theory here).

if moffat is intending something along these lines… perhaps the doctor already knows (or strongly suspects) what’s happening? and he is literally “training” her to assume the title (and duties) of a timelord? i had the thought today that maybe his chalkboard ruminations are to do with building her a tardis of her own? (also assuming the makeshift console of ‘the doctor’s wife’ survived.) for someone who can harness the power of the eye of harmony within his own tardis, i don’t think it’s beyond the scope of the doctor’s abilities to build one from scratch. the tardis has that room that can make the necessary parts (‘journey to the centre of the tardis’), and beyond that all that’s needed is… er, time…

🙂

[Anonymous @]

@jimthefish

What I’m not really buying is the abruptness of Clara’s estrangement from the Doctor.

At first I thought there was a clear winner on this one, but then I tried to write an opinion and now I think it is definitely a tie. There is no winning evidence on either side; everything just cancels out on every point. I can barely write anything, without getting into an argument with myself. 😈

I really do think it is a tie, but I’m still on the side of Clara acting the right way.

@arbutus – You wrote a very good post. I’m not ripping it. If I read your post right, Clara’s trust in the Doctor is a reason why she should not be mad and cut him some slack. But I think that is the strongest reason for why she should be super mad.

Your post gave several good examples of how the Doctor has always come back to save the day. Each time that happened, Clara’s trust in the Doctor, to always be there, became stronger. So I think that made it that much worse, when out of the blue, he dumps saving the entire human race on her and leaves. That was the Doctor doing the exact opposite of what Clara trusted, the one thing she trusted most about him. So Clara’s trust in the Doctor is what made it hurt so much.

I say she trusted that most about the Doctor, because Clara has had trouble this season answering questions about the new Doctor a few times now. (Am I a good man? and Gretchen asked, “Should I trust him?”) Based on Clara’s answers, I don’t think Clara knows this Doctor very well, except that he has always been there when needed, like in Deep Breath.

There are equally good evidence for both sides, so it’s impossible to know which side is right about Clara’s trust right now. I guess it  just depends on how you want to look at it, since it is just a coin flip or gut feeling.

I choose to think Clara is acting right, because characters not behaving the way they should are my deal breaker.

Clara might be over reacting like Arbutus and JimTheFish suspect. That will be good too: if there is a good reason why, which we just don’t know yet – (That makes it the better side to be on for Bonkers Theories too). 😉

[geoffers @geoffers]

and btw, i like this episode more, now that i’ve read everyone else’s reactions to it. my only real GOL (“groan out loud”) moment was the space dragon immediately laying an egg the same size and appearance of the one it just hatched out of (apparently in the exact orbit, too). but i’m sure there are many fantastical ways to explain the phenomenon, which are all secondary to the story of whatever’s happening between clara and the doctor. (sorry, sci-fi firsters. i, too, wish we could have solid science and fantasy, together, always… but sometimes we only get sci-fa! lol)

one point i haven’t seen referenced, though… “henry, go back and prime the bombs.” inept astronaut guy who was sent back to “turn on” the nukes, did he get killed after doing that, or before he even made it back to the shuttle? because, if he didn’t make it back to the shuttle, then nothing would have happened if they pushed the button at the end, anyway, right? or did i miss something?!

[Anonymous @]

I was thinking about this all afternoon and wondering whether to post it at all. Don’t see it as me truly peeved as I’m not  -just having an attack of nerves, overwork, lack of sleep, heat….So, take it with some warning that actually I’m a nice person (mostly)

I’m a bit jacked off. Some people aren’t reading posts/arguments (as in fully absorbing the writing/ideas of someone else)  or understandably forgetting what’s being said. Clara seems lack lustre & then someone mentions she’d be pregnant -bonkers theory. Fair do. And then someone else says “no,” Then it’s back to her lack of energy. Not a bad theory but a theory by @lisa all the same and that’s great! We want theories.     🙂

Someone mentioned (and I did too, maybe, and I’m annoyed by my own repetition as others would be) and also @geoffers : that the clock tower has some weirdo connection/relationship…Clara was glued like an oyster to the Tardis, (in TofD), was “born under clock tower” and then ended up looking totally lost and adrift in the apartment. I assumed it was more to do with her not existing unless someone was watching, or else not fully existing at all. It’s existential or phenomenal. Like the Library I spose, but I think CAL etc is finito.

@geoffers – yep, the bombs were primed before  -otherwise it would have been a ‘bust’ I think. Or else, wandery man primed just the one set?

@scaryb I did understand what you’re saying about Clara, sorry, but I should have stated that it was just one (rather silly) opinion of my own! I still haven’t formed an articulated approach to this so I’m just repeating myself…Grrr.

Her lack of energy could be explained by something other than her mad life (the mad life being a better explanation and far more logical) and so I wondered a] was she a claricle? (I doubt that now) b] is she running out of steam quite literally because she exists because of the Doctor c] is the time lord idea a possibility (see above)?

Personally, I think the clock towers and the clock theme in opening sequence means something…Probably I am reading waaay too much into all this. In Sydney, Capaldi said that ‘scholar’s of Dr Who need to “go out and see something else, do something else and enjoy living”. Bit of a whack in the jaw there !!!! (I’m a fan apparently so that doesn’t count! – a scholar can name every episode and the main plot of every arc. Whoa).

So now I’ll have a glass of wine and an astringent. 🙂

Sometimes I think we tend to see things not as they are, but as we are.

Kindest, y’ll, puromiddling

 

[Anonymous @]

@geoffers that’s me annoyed by my own repetition -not yours. Not at all. I’m more annoyed with myself!

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@badwulf   Thanks very much for the link to the YouTube video; it sums up the problem beautifully.  Science fantasy is fine in its own way, but not when contaminated by the misuse of current scientific terms.  Anyone who understands the meaning of those terms is likely to have great difficulty in hanging on to the thread, wire or cable from which their disbelief is suspended.

As an archaeologist/historian who has some understanding of the scientific method and has an interested but unmathematically gifted layman’s knowledge of biology, physics and cosmology I tend to be distracted not only by this problem but by the historical anachronisms which @arbutus mentioned, which is unfortunate.  Your example of someone writing a story set in Australia without bothering to ascertain the geographical location of Canberra reminded me of the problem I had with Connie Willis’s novel in two volumes about time travellers stranded in the London Blitz in 1940/41 (‘Blackout’ and ‘All Clear’).  The reviews of this were favourable, and she had done a pretty thorough job of researching the facts of the blitz – what bombs fell where and on what date.  But she seems largely to have ignored the vast amount of material documenting the everyday lives and experience of people there at the time, and the whole thing was full of inaccuracies and cultural false notes.  And although she has visited the UK  she comes across also as being somewhat clueless about the geography of England and its flora and fauna .

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@purofilion

Some people aren’t reading posts/arguments (as in fully absorbing the writing/ideas of someone else) or understandably forgetting what’s being said. Clara seems lack lustre & then someone mentions she’d be pregnant -bonkers theory. Fair do. And then someone else says “no,”

Who, me? 😉

It’s quite true that I haven’t really had the time this week to read through the 200 plus posts in the detail they deserve (and that I do normally give them). And I also did rather say ‘no, Clara’s not pregnant’ without spelling out the Bonkers Theory behind it in full detail. I kind of alluded to it by mentioning Orson.

So: full scale Bonkers Theory (TM) – Orson/Danny represents a trap for Clara. Orson may even be Danny – but he certainly isn’t Clara’s great-grandson. She isn’t pregnant. She just thinks she’s going to become pregnant.

What happened as a result of Clara meeting Orson? She’s only just met Danny at this point – in fact, they’re having an utterly disastrous date. But by meeting Orson she becomes convinced that there will be children and therefore, she and Danny will have a relationship.

And that promptly positions the Doctor as ‘Space Dad’. Danny’s now more important; life outside the TARDIS just became more important. Parents are the people you leave behind in order to live your life in your own home, with your own family. The future family she now thinks she’s seen.

Ticking away, in the back of her mind, all through the episodes since ‘Listen’ is the ‘knowledge’ that she’s going to have at least one child. With Danny. And from Clara’s point of view, you can’t/don’t take kids on the TARDIS – Courtney just reminded her of that. The comment about grandchildren on future Earth just reminded Clara of that. So she’s going to leave.

And that will leave Clara unprotected.

Clara isn’t pregnant. 😉

[PhileasF @phileasf]

@purofilion – Has another companion gone so completely berserk before?

Good question. I just fast-forwarded through the first 26 years (what a rush!) Strangely, I remember the BG series better than most of the AG series, despite not watching very much of the BG series during the last 10 years.

There are a few close contenders that I can recall.

In the early episodes, the Doctor and Ian were occasionally at each other’s throats. Here’s a memorable example from The Daleks episode 1. The Doctor has just revealed he sabotaged the TARDIS to provide a pretext for exploring the Dalek city, when everyone else wanted to leave the planet. This transcript, and others below, are from the very useful ‘Doctor Who transcripts‘ site:

IAN: You fool. You old fool!
DOCTOR: Abuse me as much as you like, Chesterton. The point is we need an immediate return to the ship, and I suggest we leave at once.
IAN: We’re not leaving until we’ve found Barbara.
DOCTOR: Very well. You may stay and search for her if you wish, but Susan and I are going back to the ship. Now, come along, child.
IAN: All right, carry on, fine. How far do you think you’ll get without this? (the fluid link)
DOCTOR: Give that to me.
IAN: Not until we’ve found Barbara.
DOCTOR: Give it to me, I say.
IAN: No! It’s time you faced up to your responsibilities. You got us here. Now I’m going to make sure that you get us back.

In The Massacre episode 4, Steven is bothered by the Doctor’s refusal to save his friend Anne Chaplet from the massacre of St Bartholemew’s Eve. It’s one of the great lost moments of Doctor Who. I think part of it was recreated for An Adventure in Time and Space, but I may be wrong.

STEVEN: Surely there was something we could have done?
DOCTOR: No, nothing. Nothing. In any case, I cannot change the course of history, you know that. The massacre continued for several days in Paris and then spread itself to other parts of France. Oh, what a senseless waste. What a terrible page of the past.
STEVEN: Did they all die?
DOCTOR: Yes, most of them. About ten thousand in Paris alone.
STEVEN: The Admiral?
DOCTOR: Yes.
STEVEN: Nicholas? You had to leave Anne Chaplet there to die.
DOCTOR: Anne Chaplet?
STEVEN: The girl! The girl who was with me! If you’d brought her with us she needn’t have died. But no, you had to leave her there to be slaughtered.
DOCTOR: Well, it is possible of course she didn’t die, and I was right to leave her.
STEVEN: Possible? Look, how possible? That girl was already hunted by the Catholic guards. If they killed ten thousand how did they spare her? You don’t know, do you? You can’t say for certain that you weren’t responsible for that girl’s death.
DOCTOR: I was not responsible.
STEVEN: Oh, no. You just sent her back to her aunt’s house where the guards were waiting to catch her. I tell you this much, Doctor, wherever this machine of yours lands next I’m getting off. If your researches have so little regard for human life then I want no part of it.
DOCTOR: We’ve landed. Your mind is made up?
(The Tardis doors open.)
STEVEN: Goodbye.
DOCTOR: My dear Steven, history sometimes gives us a terrible shock, and that is because we don’t quite fully understand. Why should we? After all, we’re all too small to realise its final pattern. Therefore don’t try and judge it from where you stand. I was right to do as I did. Yes, that I firmly believe.
(Steven leaves the Tardis without another word.)
DOCTOR: Even after all this time he cannot understand. I dare not change the course of history. Well, at least I taught him to take some precautions. He did remember to look at the scanner before he opened the doors. Now they’re all gone. All gone. None of them could understand. Not even my little Susan, or Vicki. And as for Barbara and Chatterton. Chesterton. They were all too impatient to get back to their own time. And now, Steven. Perhaps I should go home, back to my own planet. But I can’t. I can’t.

In the next scene they meet Dodo Chaplet, a girl who seems to be a 1960s descendant of Anne: if they’re right, Anne must have lived. This conclusion only really makes sense if Anne had an illegitimate son, which lends support to the bonkers theory that Dodo is also Steven’s descendant.

In Evil of the Daleks episode 5, Jamie has a similar outburst:

JAMIE: Och, don’t touch me!
DOCTOR: Oh, now what’s the matter?
JAMIE: Anyone would think this was a little game.
DOCTOR: No it is not a game.
JAMIE: Of course it isn’t, Doctor. People have died. The Daleks are all over the place, fit to murder the lot of us, and all you can say is you’ve had a good night’s work.
DOCTOR: Jamie.
JAMIE: No, Doctor. Look, I’m telling you this. You and me, we’re finished. You’re just too callous for me. Anything goes by the board. Anything at all.
DOCTOR: That’s just not true, Jamie. I’ve never held that the end justifies the means.
JAMIE: Och, words. What do I care about words? You don’t give that much for a living soul except yourself.
DOCTOR: I care about life. I care about human beings. Do you think I let you go through that Dalek test lightly?
JAMIE: I don’t know. Did you? Look, Doctor, just whose side are you on?

He gets over it pretty quickly.

[geoffers @geoffers]

@purofilion – Sometimes I think we tend to see things not as they are, but as we are.

i know i’m guilty of this! but i wonder, aren’t most people the same? after all, we all see the objective world through (individual) subjective eyes…

as for being annoyed (or annoying)… no worries.  i will take no offense, and mean none (and will always try to extend that courtesy to everyone). as a rule, when i’m online, i refuse to allow the slings and arrows of outrageous posts to get at me. life is too short, and only getting shorter (as my grey hairs constantly remind me)! thankfully, this forum is civilized, and just plain nice, compared to some other places i’ve visited…

so if you post something “bitey,” i’ll just assume it’s for someone else!

🙂

[Mudlark @mudlark]

I have been toying with ideas on how the moon-as-egg might be rationalised in a quasi-scientific way within the context of the Who universe. It probably goes against the rules of science fantasy, but for once I am in the mood for a bit of bonkers theorising.

So I will ignore what we know of the age of our moon and its composition and start from the premise that it is an egg, or at least something analogous to an egg, and it is 100 million years old.  In the Who universe as well as our own the Apollo missions took place (Day of the Moon)and presumably, as in our universe, rock samples were brought back and analysed; so the statement that there are no minerals on the moon is nonsense in either universe, unless we assume that what was meant was in the prospectors’ sense of, no commercially viable mineral deposits (probably true in our universe if we are talking about minerals to be transported back for use on earth, but questionable if we are talking about setting up a moon base – but I digress).  It is unlikely that the rocks formed an original part of the egg or egg analogue itself as it came from the ovipositor of the mother dragon, so it is presumably an accretion of the debris left over from the formation of the earth and the rest of the planetary bodies, perhaps simply attracted by the gravitational pull of the egg, or else somehow constructed purposefully to protect the egg, in the way that a caddis fly larva constructs a carapace to protect itself.  So the moon could be an egg containing a developing foetus, or a casing containing a larva, or both at different stages of development.

In this scenario the moon remains outwardly unchanged and unvarying in mass (so far as we know) for the greater part of 100 million years and then, suddenly, gains mass very rapidly.  So what if the space dragon embryo develops very, very slowly until it is ready to enter a larval stage and then undergoes accelerated growth to maturity, before emerging, like a dragon fly, as an adult?  The gain in mass cannot be explained simply by the growth of the embryo/larva within the moon, because of the law of conservation of mass, which I think must apply in the Who universe as in ours, but what if there were some way that the larva could increase significantly in density rather than size by employing some superefficient means of converting solar energy into mass:  dragons are supposed to be particularly efficient at converting mass into energy in the form of great heat, so if this is a space dragon, why not the reverse?

When the mature space dragon finally emerges, the rocky casing is pulverised into harmless dust in the process, so the earth suffers no further damage and might even experience a spectacular meteor display as a bonus. Then, seemingly a few minutes after emergence, the dragon deposits another egg/moon apparently as large as the one it came from – i.e. as large as itself, or nearly.  Perhaps that is why it increased so much in density in its final stages of growth, so it could lay an extremely dense egg which then inflated to moon size.  The method of reproduction would have to be parthenogenesis (self cloning) which some invertebrates on earth are capable of – aphids, for example, which is one reason why they are such pestilent little buggers. It means, also, that the dragon beast would have to emerge already pregnant.

Alternatively, the space dragon exists in more than one dimension of a multiverse, pops into one in which time runs at a faster rate (The Girl Who Waited), and pops back, having undergone a period of gestation, to lay its egg.

As an afterthought, what kind of life form could exist in space?  One of the minerals found in significant quantities in some of the samples of moon rock is silicone dioxide, so could it the moon dragon be partly silicone based?  Probably not, but I am dubious about the notion that it is the only one of its kind.  The species had to have evolved somehow, which suggests there must be or must once have been a population of the critters.  Either that, or the original, ur-dragon was artificially created.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@mudlark – I thought the minerals comment was there to show that the minerals had now been eaten by the baby Space Dragon. There should have been minerals; they didn’t find any.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

Is the moon an egg?

Time for the definitive answer:

 

[thommck @thommck]

I feel some people are over-egging the gravity of the plot so firstly (along with those awful puns) I present the origin of the moon-egg 😉

Here is some useful official BBC content that helps clear up a lot too
Quiz The Moon – bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/59bhtcgMnFZrnRF4xzPdvS7/kill-the-moon-the-quiz
(I got 8/10)

Fact File bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/5MkKGGVwPzfmdwl048Rr8Jn/kill-the-moon-fact-file

Doctor Who Extra – bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p027s01k

Do We Really Need the Moon? bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00dl61c

———–

Being a late comer to the conversation I hope you are still interested in my thoughts on this episode

I really enjoyed this episode! After seeing a golden arrow propel a space ship out of our atmosphere I’ve watched with an “anything goes” attitude. I loved the look. The black and white style filming on the moon surface looked beautiful and so much more realistic than your average green-screening. I’d love them to do a pure black and white episode again!

The plot felt a lot like a Tennant/RTD style story (all it missed were some “Breaking News” montages!). Not scientifically accurate. Ridiculous in fact but as others have mentioned, who knows what the Moon Dragon is capable of. It could have Telekinetic powers. The “reasons” given by the astronauts were just their personal theories. Nobody understood what was happening, that was the point. Who’s to say the “Dragon” didn’t lay a small egg to which it instantly expanded due to the space vacuum environment? (LOL at the thought from @pedant of waiting to see the creature that comes to fertilise it!). Rather than complain about “plot holes” or the definition of sci-fi, why not write a “Fix the Moon” blog post. I’m sure @craig wouldn’t mind putting a few up for us to comment on.

What I personally had more of a problem with was Clara’s plan to “ask the Earth”. Would people in 2049 really get the message? How? Could you trust the lights? What if Google controls them all in 2049? Is 45mins enough to declare a democratic decision? The countdown was artificially put in place by Captain Lundvik. However, reading other’s thoughts on here made me recognise it was Clara in panic made, trying not to make the decision herself. So some fairly clever writing after all.

What I enjoyed most was that I could use the pause button on my remote! There were so many ideas thrown up in this episode that I had to keep taking a minute to ask my two sons “What would you do?”. TV hasn’t promoted this much discussion between us ever!

Kill the moon? We all said we would save the egg, mainly because you had to hope for the best. I’m pretty sure the image of the moon being an egg will always stay with my 10 y/o – the magic of TV!

Should the Doctor help? My boys thought yes at first but then decided it was our decision, as earthlings and he didn’t have a right or obligation to help. I do wonder where he went, was he just flying around the moon or did he go off into the future?

Kids in the TARDIS. My boys were very jealous of Courtney but both said they would have ran all over the TARDIS exploring. Not just sit there. I would have loved to see a few back rooms too!

Should Clara leave? My 12 y/o gave a whoop of excitement when Clara lost her rag at the end with the Doctor. Not because he dislikes Clara but because he can see their relationship isn’t working. Me and my 10 y/o think she’ll be back permanently but maybe not in the next episode.

———–

Clues

Spiders: (@JimTheFish) The spiders/bacteria did feel like a misplaced “alien”. Considering the show’s history of spiders I was expecting a lot more out of them. I also thought “Cold War” was a much more tense and scary episode. This one missed the mark on the fear factor a bit. However, it wasn’t lost on me that we once again had a theme of size/miniturisation. Humans expect bacteria to be tiny but alien bacteria can be the size of badgers! Very reminiscent of the lethal antibodies in “Into the Dalek” – both just doing their job, protecting their host.

TARDIS: Did anyone else spot the TARDIS “laughing” when the Doctor was ridiculing Clara at the beginning of the episode. We are also reminded how Clara and the TARDIS don’t get along. This led me to find a video clip that I had previously not heard of – Clara and the TARDIS, an extra on the Complete Seventh Series DVD. Sounds interesting, will be great if anyone can track down a link of the actual footage

Courtney Blinovitch: The Doctor tells us she marries a feller called Blinovitch and becomes President of the United States! Was this a joke or was it the Doctor referring to her crossing her own timeline? In theory, as the PUSA in 2049 (at age 50?) she would have know exactly what was going on with the moon so maybe she was sabotaging the astronauts all along?

Ancestors: Lots of talk of children and, I think, specifically grand-daughters

Fuzzy/Grey Areas: I’m not surprised a few events are fuzzy and grey for the Doctor with those eyebrows getting in the way! Seriously, though, I took this to mean that there was always one timeline here but the Doctor would never have been able to travel to it because it was in his own timeline. This would be why they are fuzzy, like the TARDIS perception filter, when he is travelling through time. Maybe The Promised Land is one such fuzzy area? He could only return when Clara had locked the point of no return.

Immortality: The Doctor doesn’t know how many times he can regenerate. He is quite cavalier about the whole thing. What if Captain Jack isn’t the Face of Boe but the Doctor is! What if the sub-plot of Clara being unhappy with the Doctor isn’t a sign that she will leave but that the Doctor will! Twelve’s own internal worries may end up being to much for him to bear. He may want to reset himself/test his immortality and start again?!?

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Replies

@badwulf – Thanks for the link to the Trolley problem, a great head-scratcher. Although, it doesn’t seem to include an altruistic suicide option?

@handles – as @cathannabel says, Courtney wasn’t wearing vortex manipulators, they were anti-travel-sickness bracelets

@phileasf –  love your “I disliked this episode less on the second viewing“, They should put that on the boxset 😉

@thebrainofmoffat Don’t try to think of some many questions/faults, come up with some solutions, it’s much more fun! 🙂 (Fix The Moon!)

[Brewski @brewski]

Bonkers Thought:

When the shuttle was breached and the air started escaping, a big metal plate conveniently flew into the breach.

Lucky shot?  Seems unlikely.  why even have that monent?

And why did I get the impression there was something vaguely Gallifreyan about the etching on that metal plate?

This leads into my next thought….

[Brewski @brewski]

Bonkers Thought:

When the shuttle was breached and the air started escaping,  a big metal plate conveniently flew into the beach.

Lucky shot? Seems unlikely.  And why even have such a moment?

And why did I get the impression that there was something vaguely Gallifreyan about the etchings in that plate?

This leads me to my next thought…

[Brewski @brewski]

Re The Doctor leaving in the middle of the crisis:

There’s something very wrong with the Doctor “leaving the decision to nankind”

I cannot think of any reason the Doctor would view the moon as belonging to mankind!  It is a separate world, and evidently has (or is) a separate life form.  It is fundamentally NOT mankind’s decision what to do with it.
Moreover, the notion that the Doctor could so blithely say “Save the life form or blow it up. Your call” goes much too far away from what we understand about the Doctor — however alien and different this regeneration may be.

Ergo, he MUST have had a plan.  He had no intention of allowing the creature to be destroyed (appearances aside.)  Or of allowing Clara and Coutrney to be in such serious danger.

Clara could not have been allowed to make the “wrong decision”.
Clara’s anger is justifiable because she suspects just this: that the Doctor knew more than he was saying and didn’t trust her enough to tell her.

However, the Doctor DOES trust her.  So what was his reason for keeping her in the dark about this?  He must have felt he had no choice.
He could not tell her what to do and he could not do it himself.  But he also knew the outcome.

The Tardis reappeared the exact same moment she pushed the abort button.  So he was monitoring the events.  (See Bonkers Thought above re the metal plate.  Was he manipulating events on the shuttle to ensure the right outcome?)

What is the deep game he’s playing here? I am willing to bet it has something to do with Missy.

Maybe he is more aware of Missy than we know.  And he is working covertly to undermine her…

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@thommck

(LOL at the thought from @pedant of waiting to see the creature that comes to fertilise it!).

Thats not a meteor shower, it’s Moon Sperm!

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@thommck

 it could lay an extremely dense egg which then inflated to moon size.

 

Who’s to say the “Dragon” didn’t lay a small egg to which it instantly expanded due to the space vacuum environment

Two minds …. (well, more or less) 🙂

@bluesqueakpip   Well, that’s a possibility if we assume that the egg itself consisted originally of rock almost all the way down, with the embryo in a relatively small central cavity; the embryo would then have grown by consuming this rocky substance, thus hollowing out the moon gradually. The mother would have had a very uncomfortable time laying it, though,  because the surface of the moon is jagged.

But there was no indication in this episode that the surface of the moon was not still rock – and rock is composed of minerals, even if we assume that some of those minerals had been leached out and consumed by the baby dragon.  Furthermore, if the prospectors had been drilling for core samples to any depth they would have broken into the central cavity containing the dragon and realised what they were dealing with, unless the rocky crust was still fairly thick.

 

[Brewski @brewski]

@barnable and @jimbomcmaster

I think we’re thinking along the same lines with the notion of “wrongness” about the Doctor’s behavior as it appears in the surface.

I like the idea of it being a Timelord kind of test.  Except…  the stakes would be too high if she failed the test.   unless we assume he would have intervened had she the wrong decision.

But that still leaves me wondering where Missy fits in to this.

 

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@phileasf

Well done in tracking down the dialogues from the BG episodes. Definitely not a new thing that companions threaten to leave and forcefully call the Doctor out on things. I seem to remember it wasn’t unusual for Ian or Barbara to do it either. I see lots of echoes of Hartnell in particular in Twelve.

@pedant – Stop doing that!! (Another keyboard ruined)

@thommck Great post. In tribute to that and in the spirit of @blenkinsopthebrave‘s “evidence”, I present the case for alternative lifeforms and lifecycles –

 

[Spider @spider]

Going back to what someone said (sry can’t remember who) and has been echoed lots, about it being funny how some things bug people more than others in what they like to be ‘accurate’. I was just thinking that for me, last week, the space robots imaging sensors annoyed me a huge amount, but this week I am totally fine for the moon to be  a giant space egg and the change in gravity for not very good ‘reasons’ other than it makes the filming a lot easier! Although some of this I blame on being distracted by being terrified of the giant friggin SPIDER type things (ridiculous but cool).

@thommck  interesting points, and the whole pause the tv and ask your sons what they would do is great :). For the record. I would have blown things up so I fail XD.

I think I’ve also had a bit more of a ‘anything goes’ attitude ever since the gold arrow into the spaceship in episode 3 – which i hate as a plot device..but it does give us a great shot of the three of them firing the bow together which i do like.

Anyway, behind me out the window, the giant space egg has just risen…now where are those nukes 😮 *kidding*  🙂

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@scaryb – awwww the Soup Dragon!

@pedant et al on the subject of the egg – behold the whip-tailed lizard (a cousin methinks of Madame Vastra) http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p006v48r

 

[BadWulf @badwulf]

The Doctor’s disregard for his duty of care towards Courtney, a child in his care that he abandoned to die in a nuclear explosion that she would not have been exposed to had he not brought her there

@scaryb No he didn’t. He very deliberately sent her to the TARDIS so she’d be safe*.

 

Hmm. I’m pretty sure that at the 29 minute mark in the show the Doctor abandons all three humans to (potentially) die in a nuclear explosion, one of whom was a child he had brought there on (perhaps – unless he’s a chessmaster like the Seventh) an apparent whim.

*The Doctor’s definition of “safe” may be slightly different from a conventional human’s 

Agreed!

When trying to find the bit where he abandons them, I came across that bit of dialogue where he asks whether the POTUS is qualified, saying “(s)he’s never been in space”  – except that she had, and was there in the room with him! That was again, pretty timey-wimey!

[BadWulf @badwulf]

@thommck Thanks for the link to the Trolley problem, a great head-scratcher. Although, it doesn’t seem to include an altruistic suicide option?

The way that the problem is framed is designed to exclude a self-sacrificial option, as that would test a different psychological phenomenon – the willingness to self sacrifice.

The fatman thought experiment is interesting  because it allows us to see that we humans apparently are in some sense “hard wired” to avoid actively doing something where we have culpability, even if it leads to a better outcome, simply because it would make us feel worse.

 

[BESD1 @besd1]

@mtgradwell @Bluepipsqueak – “All the science was garbage …….. You might be onto something here”   I really hope you are onto something, because if I get you right and what you’re saying is that these multiple distortions of reality are a symptomatic of some over arching distortions, probably related to the status of Missy’s promised land, then that might in the long run, take care of most of my objections to at least 2 of the 3 episodes which have disappointed me this series so far. Namely ROS and KTM were both so shockingly detached from basic narrative sense that they irked me (I am on record as saying that I never actively dislike an episode, but these 2 ran me close) – I hope we’ve found a mechanism that can mitigate (some of) the major flaws. Might this also help to explain the third of those disappointments – Listen (it was great in many ways, flawed in others and the “it was all the Doctor’s own fears” explanation of events didn’t do it for me. The distorted realities idea might).

[BESD1 @besd1]

@badwulf @Bluepipsqueak thanks for introducing me to the Trolley problem. Having read up on it it seems the biggest problem with it, or at least its variants, is that it seriously overestimates how fat a person can be.

[BadWulf @badwulf]

@besd1 thanks for introducing me to the Trolley problem. Having read up on it it seems the biggest problem with it, or at least its variants, is that it seriously overestimates how fat a person can be.

Dang you and your adherence to scientific rationality! It totally spoils the story if you can’t just *believe* in the fatman. 🙂

(I always imagined it either as a spare 1945 vintage nuclear bomb, which would certainly obstruct a mere trolley, or as Jabba the Hutt watching the proceedings whilst unnecessarily yet precariously balanced on some sort of see-saw)

If only wishing for a fatman would make one appear, conveniently packaged.

Sigh, it will never happen.

[Anonymous @]

@brewski

And why did I get the impression that there was something vaguely Gallifreyan about the etchings in that plate?

I was watching Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS on Sunday and noticed that the plate used in Kill the Moon was also used in JttCotT – it was covering Clara when we first see her in the wrecked TARDIS. In all likelihood it was just a re-used prop – there are some other props used which date back to Tom Baker’s era – but you never know, there may have been a purpose for re-using it. Hmmm…

 

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@scaryb

I was beginning to think nobody appreciated the Moon Sperm. You’ll never look at the Leonids in the same way, will you?

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@juniperfish – – OMG! The Gay Agenda is back!

[Anonymous @]

@pedant @scaryb

Moon Sperm! Yikes! I just hope none of it gets ‘On The Sofa’. It’s harder to remove than fur and glitter 😉

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@juniperfish

And the Iron Chicken (tho don’t ask me which came first) 😉 Love the lesbian lizards. Apparently there were reports of newly discovered seismic activity on the moon (not that it happened recently but it’s new information that wasn’t known before) – http://www.techtimes.com/articles/16975/20141002/explore-the-moon-s-intricate-system-of-valleys-just-discovered.htm

– and 2 weeks ago there were massive solar storms (same week as Time Heist) – http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/11/tech/innovation/solar-storm/

Spooky synchronicity! (Even more impressive than if they synch the last 2 stories with Hallowe’en and Remembrance Sunday as @phaseshift suggests)

 

@pedant

I don’t think I’ll ever go out without an umbrella again 😯

Aha, yes – the gay agenda’s back.  Taking its place with the  new pro-life agenda 😉

 

 

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@badwulf

It was always the Doctor’s intention to come back for the humans as soon as they’d made the decision. He just didn’t explain that was the plan. The same as he didn’t explain in Deep Breath.  But if they’d made Choice 1 (Nuke the moon) then there may not have been much of an  earth to take them back to. Choice 2 (save he creature) ensures that there is. Clara’s message to the people of earth (well some of them anyway) ensured that at least a few of them know what  happened and the positive consequences of the leap of  faith choice to let the creature live. Which is the attitude they’ll take into space exploration with them.

I like that this Doctor doesn’t seem to know everything – and doesn’t keep up any facade that he does. But he does still have Clara’s back, even tho she sometimes doubts it.

[BadWulf @badwulf]

@scaryb It was always the Doctor’s intention to come back for the humans as soon as they’d made the decision.

How would he have known that the decision to nuke had been taken unless there was the lunar equivalent of a mushroom cloud?

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@Purofilion

Poor you. Hope you feel better/recaffeinated soon 🙂

I’m not dissing your theory that there is something wrong  with Clara, just that I think we’ve seen enough of her life recently to explain it. She has to be panicking that she was the cause of Danny becoming a soldier (and his consequent traumatic experience which we’ve still to find out about). Maybe that was a path he’d never have set out on if she hadn’t dabbled in his childhood.  Not to mention the worry that she might in some way have imprinted herself on his subconscious when he was a boy, so that he becomes predestined to fall for her (his guardian angel)! And all of this she’s keeping from him, and from the Doctor.  Neither of them is likely to be pleased with her. Talk about guilt (maybe what the Teller as sensing).

[BESD1 @besd1]

Sorry – I meant @bluesqueakpip ! There are a couple of posts responding to you up above with an embarrassingly poor spelling of your name.

[BESD1 @besd1]

@badwulf – ah, now Jabba would certainly fit the bill.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@badwulf

He turned up as soon as the button was pressed. He was monitoring. Or waiting till the end of the countdown. (Quick trip round the moon, kill some time 😉 , head back )

Makes me think that it was intended to be a suicide mission. No way they could expect to set the bombs, launch the shuttle and get clear in time.  (There again there there were a lot of “no way”s in this episode!)

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@fatmaninabox

Good to see you back – was worried all this talk about The Trolley problem and throwing fat men over bridges had chased you away!!

*off to shake some of my new glitter on the sofa, hehe*

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@pedant Lol 🙂

@scaryb Yes I also love the lesbian lizards. And speaking of which – I hope we get another Jenny and Vastra adventure this season. I love those two actresses – they have mischievous chemistry.

Woo and hoo to the solar storms. It’s also a lunar eclipse tomorrow morning.

I think @phaseshift is right – because this season has been all about death and difficult choice.

To push or not to push the robot to its death? (Deep Breath) To kill or not to kill with its mate held hostage? (the Teller in Heist) To destroy or not to destroy the moon dragon? (Kill the Moon) etc.

Each of these decisions mirror, on a smaller scale, the terrible decision the War Doctor was faced with. The link is overtly made in-text when we actually revisit the War Doctor in Listen.

The Doctor is haunted – and what better time to confront this haunting than Halloween?

[BadWulf @badwulf]

@scaryb He turned up as soon as the button was pressed. He was monitoring. Or waiting till the end of the countdown. (Quick trip round the moon, kill some time  , head back )

Makes me think that it was intended to be a suicide mission. No way they could expect set the bombs, launch the shuttle and get clear in time.  (There again there there were a lot of “no way”s in this episode!)

I definitely agree that it was a suicide mission, which explains the astronaut’s grim and fatalistic demeanour (which I think was one of the very strongest points of the episode).

Regarding the detonation – I thought that the button press was to *abort* a running timer (I might be wrong), so… if humanity had reached the decision to use the nukes *and* Clara had not overruled that decision at the last second, there would have been no interval between the timer reaching zero and the nukes detonating for the Triumvirate of Womankind to get into the TARDIS.

The Doctor’s actions could therefore only be seen as responsible to Courtney if he already had knowledge that the detonation was aborted somehow.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@juniperfish

Death and difficult choices – also Into the Dalek – should they try to treat a “the Doctor’s deadliest enemy” or let it die (presumably) and the Dalek’s choice at the end – to go on a killing spree. And that’s in addition to Gretchen’s choice.  Maybe the “I’ve made many mistakes” line was  bit more than a throwaway and he actually does intend to make up for some of them.  Or realise there are some things he can’t fix, and it’s OK.

I could see that theme evolving so there’s a role in the story for River. Fingers x’d. And yes would be great to see Vastra and Jenny back – they’ve already shown they work well with Twelve.

A haunted theme at Hallowe’en – can’t wait 😈 Next week’s looks pretty creepy too.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@badwulf

It shows he had complete confidence  that Clara would make the right decision. She’s already shown him her moral strength in Day of the Doctor, and he’d pretty much spelt it out to her in this episode what the right decision was. His faith in her is 100%. But he didn’t explain all that in detail to her, so she felt the pressure, and she felt used.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@badwulf

we humans apparently are in some sense “hard wired” to avoid actively doing something where we have culpability

And a good thing too. Otherwise our trains would be permanently delayed due to fat men on the line. “Well, he was just standing there. It’s a lot easier than changing the points.”
😈

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@juniperfish

Each of these decisions mirror, on a smaller scale, the terrible decision the War Doctor was faced with. The link is overtly made in-text when we actually revisit the War Doctor in Listen.

Yeah, I think so too. If we see the Eccleston, Tennant and Smith Doctors as basically ‘broken’ by that decision, the Capaldi Doctor is the one who has to recover from it. Then he has to find a way of healing not just himself, but the broken universe; some way of bringing back the Time Lords without starting another Time War.

Another point: the Smith Doctor’s residence on Trenzalore mirrors Kahler-Jex’s repentant residence in Mercy. But as he said himself: “you don’t get to choose your punishment.”

The Moment’s punishment is still in operation: the Doctor still has to live.

[Anonymous @]

Interesting all these notifications this morning. I must have peeved a lot of people off and that wasn’t my intention -boy, I did go bezerk. Thank you @phileasf for the wonderful script. I did recall the first Doctor’s (almost) arrogance with Ian and with the others. Since this Dr, though, I wasn’t so sure. Certainly not in AG Who, although that could be argued against too, I assume.

@bluesqueakpip no, I just thought that the original idea  supported by someone else was a good one: not necessarily outstanding or correct; personally I don’t think Moffat would have another pregnant female. He seems to have trouble writing for women and then I see/hear River and think “how extraordinary” and change my mind! But then women fall pregnant! We have the egg -but not fertilised, which says something in itself. However, I can see how Clara now couldn’t be pregnant -wouldn’t risk it, so to speak.

@scaryb goodness no, I never thought you were ‘dissing it’ and I would hope people would argue against theories otherwise where would we be!! No, no, I just thought there were some outstanding posts and then some repetitious stuff which could be avoided by reading others’ posts -it’s an extremely small point but a point nonetheless.

@geoffers I am having a nutty. oops. I am drinking instant coffee right now. Is that bad?

Kindest, puro.

 

 

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