Listen

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  • #31817
    Anonymous @

    The Monsters are Real, Head Explody Time  😯

     When Orson walks into the restaurant to get Clara, she is the only one who notices him, because she was the only one who was scared. She was scared because Danny was yelling at her. If it was Orson that was grabbed by the monsters, then the Doctor found him using the TARDIS, the Tardis had to go into the monster’s time stream to do it. So maybe that explains getting past the Time Lock also.

     Clara could have still been in the monster time stream when she talked to boy doctor. But when she grabbed his leg that might pull her back into the real time stream. Then they were able to return Orson back into the real world and Danny could see Clara again.

    Hello @raeyeth04, yes you can find some comments about that on this thread.  Welcome to the DWForum.

    #31820
    geoffers @geoffers

    @phaseshift – ah, thank you for that clarification. i remember someone upstream hinting that the extra proved who the boy in the bed is, and that’s why i went looking for it. but there were a few other things in there that i didn’t want to point out, without asking. i still think i will use my “extra” knowledge judiciously, so as not to spoil the fun for those who want to ignore the extras…

    having said that, @joehovah – having watched the ‘extra’ for this episode, it seems that orson is on his own, from the start. he gives us a tour of his ship, and shows how everything is set up for him, with no mention of anyone else to share his stuff with. and, he is shown, quite clearly (in the red spacesuit), albeit off-camera, saving the doctor…

     

    #31823
    Pufferfish @pufferfish

    @geoffers It’s also obvious from the Orson Pink news footage that he was embarking on a solo mission – otherwise two names would have been on that Bon Voyage sign.

    #31824
    nick1235 @nick1235

    @wolfweed Thank you very much for the videos! Love em

    @barnable great bonkers! Though something just came up from my mind, is that, Orson in the end of the world manage to resist himself of 6 months not opening that door, and it was supposedly only Rupert/Danny and the Doctor can see, how come Clara can listen to what the creature was doing outside that spaceship, or it’s just that we’re listening through the doctor POV. How come that Orson has that same feeling or fear like the Doctor or Rupert when the Doctor put him to a test where he needs one more night as the last man on the end of the time to see the creature.

    Another dumb bonkers theory by me (sorry if someone already post this before, I might missed the post)

    1. We know that you can hold on to the Tardis. (Pond did it with 11th, ended up delaying the arrival of the Tardis of it’s destination)

    2. We know it was the end of the universe where the doctor save Orson

    3. We also know that the hatch was open when the doctor pass out while confronting the creature.

    What if the creature is from the end of the universe, but he sees there’s still one life form on the end of the universe just to come and haunt it? Clara wasn’t suppose to be in the Gallifrey but she was, and ended up putting a lifetime nightmare on. At this rate, she wasn’t distracted, keeping her head still but ended up on Gallifrey! Because something was hanging on to the Tardis.

    1. The creature never enter the chamber and never “hitchhike” the tardis. And Clara was really meant to be at that exact same spot on the day she haunt the Doctor.

    2. The creature DID enter the chamber and hitchhike the tardis, and ended up stopping by on Gallifrey. (The creature is a perfect hider after all.) And (s)he/it ended up stealing one of Gallifrey time machine. Scattering across the universe to haunt people in the night!

    I’m sorry if it’s all a mess theory, but it is all a possibility.

    Cheers!

    #31829
    Spider @spider

    It’s my first ‘theory’ post, please be gentle 🙂

    Something that got me that I can’t stop thinking about (other than the ENTIRE episode which just explodes my brain each time) and I don’t think has been discussed in detail here yet (although someone has mentioned something along these lines, i can’t remember who sorry – names, not my thing 😉 is exactly who or what knocked the Doctor out cold?

    It has to be something real, because there is a mark (and blood!) there. So: Speculation:

    a) Maybe it’s as the dialogue between Clara and Orson suggests, that there was a lot of stuff flying about and he was hit by it.

    Although I accept that as a theory, the undercurrent looks and body language between them in this scene does not support this, neither of them appear to actually believe that.

    b) So was it the invisible creature’ that attacked him?

    If the creature is really imaginary, then no. It can’t be. Something real caused that injury. Orson evades the question when Clara asks him what he was afraid of.

    c) So then…Orson must have been the one that attacked the Doctor?

    This is actually what my first thought when watching the episode. That Orson knocked him out in order to get him back into the TARDIS is and stop being an idiot – as the Doctor was so desperate to find out what was going on he perhaps resisted being ‘rescued’. Or maybe the pair of them were so caught up in being afraid they attacked each other and Orson knocked the Doctor out?

    Or maybe I’m just misunderstanding something that everyone else found very obvious! XD

    (\(|;;/)/)

     

    #31830
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus completely agree with you there about the Dr: I too think he’s a great fella. I couldn’t possibly articulate the beauty of your post, so ‘great fella’ it is! I liked how you referred to the end.

    As I was falling asleep (trying hard to stop cogitating) I remembered that closure on the Drs face as he underlined ‘listen’.  He knows when to listen to Clara and Clara is becoming more self -aware (despite the ‘better than Rupert Pink’ line which still defies me – as you mentioned, why, after coming back a 2nd time, should she almost deliberately ruin it? Unless a part of her wants to!)

    I think there was one pilot? Not two as suggested by @pufferfish and @geoffers   ( @joehovah  ).

    @phaseshift     I thought it odd that The Doctor says “her face is wide” after we hear Clara chat about this with Danny at the same time as the waiter arrives with the water. It can’t be the Doctor, can it? Hidden in plain sight. Masked? Is he also responsible for the glass breaking later? Sure, the ‘your face is wide’ line could be part of what Clara has discussed with the Dr in conversation at some point about her job at Coal Hill but we also know he doesn’t like to ‘make  [light] conversation’.

    Kindest, puro

    #31832
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @nick1235   In this context, there is no “dumb”, only “bonkers”!  Carry on.

    @wcasey5    Sorry, I don’t see a mature leg there. If that leg belonged to an adult, said adult has considerably less hair than my fifteen year old son! 🙂

    @spider    I think that if there is no monster, then the Doctor was hurt either by flying debris or possibly banging his head on something as he tried to hang on. Or the monster did it. Personally, I prefer the no-monster view, but this is based not on logic but on poetry.   🙂

    @purofilion    Yes, I can’t believe that the wide face remark is a coincidence, although I loved how he tied in to his earlier comment about having three mirrors!

    #31833
    Anonymous @

    @nick1235 – I like the idea that one or more of the monsters could have grabbed onto the Tardis at the end of the universe (that could have been what bumped the TARDIS around so much).   If the monsters are dead people, then any former character (especially the Master) would recognize the Tardis and try to hitch a ride.  So it is another possible explanation for the return of any character now.  😆

    As for the questions, I don’t think sounds are affected, only the ability to see the monsters.  The characters were still afraid even if they were in the monster time stream, because maybe they don’t realize they are one of them.  Everything is the same, except people in the real time stream can’t see you anymore (like the people in the restaurant and Orson).  The words above the door make more sense, if Orson could see the people outside all the time once he was one of them. So he needed a reminder to fight off letting them in because of loneliness, like the Doctor said.

    #31834
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @geoffers     I actually wasn’t going to watch this week’s Doctor Who Extra at first, having been given to understand that it contained what might be construed as spoilers. I have a certain amount of impatience with information that is shared not through actual episodes, but through leaks (the deleted beheading scene) or chatty writers (the Doctor’s “mother”). In my view, if it can’t be shown to us in-story, then get rid of it.

    But I did decide to watch, and I realize that in fact, the problem with it is that they included things quite innocently, apparently never dreaming that we would question what Moffat appears to be showing us. Here I would like to quote Clara: “Have you met you?” Fandom questions and re-questions just about everything he shows us, for obvious reasons. I now feel a little bit like the person being shown a shape and asked “What is it?”, and after agonizing over all the possibilities, I’m told, “It’s a triangle.”  🙂

    #31835
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus – I agree with you, if it didn’t appear in-show, did it really happen?  It is like the tree falling in the forest question.  I think the answer is no, so I don’t watch the extras.  I hope I don’t stumble on what is actually happening, so I want to say I am just guessing all the time, if I do get too close.

    #31836
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @handles Nice idea about the “monsters” being sideways or parallel to our universe. For some reason I keep remembering that the original title for season 7’s  Hide was apparently Hider in the House. Which also featured a pioneering and lost time-traveller. Who was a descendant of the people who found her. (Crosses fingers that @janetteb might get her Susan wish granted 😉 )

    Also think @juniperfish‘s red/blue double timelines theory may still be splashing about a little. Red blanket on Rupert’s bed (And a noticeably pink shirt on Danny – am amazed Clara didn’t crack a joke about that!). Was the boy-Doc’s blanket blue? (it was hard to tell – Straws? Grasping at? Meee??).

    I liked the look of shock on Clara’s face when she realised whose leg she had instinctively grabbed, and the implications of that action. Nice direction in giving it time to sink in.  Good on Clara for letting her caring instincts take over before she went back to the TARDIS.

    OK – so who thinks for 1 second that the Doctor won’t peek at where the TARDIS has just been as soon as Clara’s left him alone…?!

    (Just a thought – Gallifrey is no longer timelocked, but just (very well) hidden (another hidden thing?) after the Doctors zapped it away from the Dalek assault in Day of the Doctor.  Maybe that’s why they were able to land on it, in its past. Its present whereabouts may not be accessible but its previous where((and when)-abouts are accessible again. At least when the TARDIS safeties are off. You’d think the Doctor would learn. The last time he switched them off was in Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS – and look what happened then. The TARDIS really should have an over-ride switch  – a Doctor silly decision failsafe switch).

    #31837
    ScaryB @scaryb

    And what about Courtney?  The mouthy kid that none of the teachers like, who has a name and has been in, or mentioned in, 3 episodes out of 4 so far. A bit Mels-ish perhaps? Coincidence? (Not on this forum! 😈 )

     

    #31838
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb – at first I just thought Courtney was a nice nod in the direction of the late Nicholas Courtney. But all things considered: Courtney, an ex-soldier who became a maths teacher after leaving the army, I’m beginning to wonder.

    Another nod to the Brigadier/Nick Courtney – this episode features the actor for the ex-soldier who became a maths teacher playing an older character and a younger character from different time zones – and they meet each other. However, they can’t touch – because ‘Orson’ is sealed inside his spacesuit.

    So if ‘Orson’ is a descendent, why did the Doctor have him enter the restaurant sealed inside a spacesuit? Or is it merely a Moffaty nod to the ‘Grandparent Paradox’ – Orson needed to make minimal contact in case he stopped his great-grandparents getting together?

    And it was weird that no one noticed the spaceman – Clara even lampshades it by calling it ‘surreal’.

    #31839
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip

    why did the Doctor have him enter the restaurant sealed inside a spacesuit?

    Maybe he was trying to be subtle…?  He could’ve parked the TARDIS in the restaurant instead 😀

    (Not convinced Clara is necessarily his grandparent. She might be, but Orson was very specific about being non gender specific and singular. Maybe Danny’s already been timetravelling.  This is a guy with secrets, we’re just assuming they’re all about being a soldier)

    Oh, and kudos to whoever mentioned Orson Well(e)s earlier – fell off the sofa at that 🙂

    #31840

    @bluesqueakpip

    So if ‘Orson’ is a descendent, why did the Doctor have him enter the restaurant sealed inside a spacesuit? Or is it merely a Moffaty nod to the ‘Grandparent Paradox’

    Because he is a bit better informed than he is letting on?

    Also, I suspect the suit gave Orson tunnel vision to it reduced the odds of him clocking Danny.

     

    Edit: oops.

    #31842
    XAD4 @xad4

    Hmmm… the “LISTEN” on the blackboard at the end of the episode doesn’t look at all like the one at the beginning.

    Sorry, can neither provide screenshots nor a nice bonkers theory with this (“continuity error” is all I can come up with… boooring… now you know why I’m usually only lurking).

    #31843
    Anonymous @

    Loved This episode. I hope this gets the haters to calm down. Moffat can still write. Capaldi can be a great Doctor, and Clara isn’t the devil. My main questions are why is Orison Pink wearing the SB6 spacesuit, who wrote “Listen” on the chalkboard, and what did the Doctor see when the doors opened.

    And how big are the gaps in the Doctors memory? He would have seen and heard the Tardis in the barn he was sleeping in as a child. Clara grabbed his foot to keep him from going over to it. The first time the 1st Doctor heard his Tardis land “with the breaks on” it would have given him chills and when it got stuck as a police box surly that would have clued him in on its significance.

    Did anyone notice the cloister bell going off? Just flying debris and a change in the outside pressure wouldn’t set off that. It was like something was trying and coming close to getting in.

    #31844
    wcasey5 @wcasey5

    Yeah, I just rewatched the episode and the leg was definitely a kids. With big feet. How about this? Clara told Rupert that fear could slow down time. How about that Rupert, Danny, and Orson (awesome) are the same person that keeps changing his name. His aging and timeline has slowed down because of how fearful he is?

    #31845
    Anonymous @

    @Colluphid

    And how big are the gaps in the Doctors memory? He would have seen and heard the Tardis in the barn he was sleeping in as a child. Clara grabbed his foot to keep him from going over to it. The first time the 1st Doctor heard his Tardis land “with the breaks on” it would have given him chills and when it got stuck as a police box surly that would have clued him in on its significance.

    That is why I like the multiple timelines.  All the previous doctors would not have known about Clara or the Tardis, since the events of Listen hadn’t happened yet.  The events just happened now, so Capaldi is the only doctor who could remember it.  A new timeline was created when the Doctors’ past was changed.    He might have pieced it together from his memories now (as might any previous doctors if we see them again).  But then again maybe not, since 12 didn’t leave the Tardis?

    Although, he could have peeked little? (point taken @scaryb)   😉

    #31846
    janetteB @janetteb

    I have just rewatched the episode, which incidentally was even better second time, especially as I had no distractions in the form of Jammy Dodger munching children. My brain is buzzing with bonkers ideas.

    Firstly ORson. When we first meet him he seems happy, pleased to have been rescued but his demeanour changes about the time he realises who Clara is. I think when the Doctor asks about old photos the expression on his face implies that he does recognise Clara but cannot admit it. Everyone if this episode is keeping secrets except the Doctor. I suspect Orson might have the biggest secrets of them all, which led me to speculate, perhaps it is Clara or Danny that he is looking for and perhaps he deliberately sabotaged the time destination on his space ship and screwed it up. When he gives Clara the soldier at the end he appears to be acknowledging that she is family or at least intimately connected to the family. I suspect that he is giving her the good luck symbol because he knows what is to become of her. Now it gets silly but there was a reference to sontarans perverting the course of human history. What if humans have acquired Sontaran Cloning techniques. Orson is a clone of Danny, with a mission, to find and rescue Clara. He meets her but too soon.

    Secondly the Toy soldiers. What did the Doctor do with it and why doesn’t he recognise it when he sees Clara with it in the orphanage. It seems that the Doctor is rather forgetful and I guess childhood was a considerable time ago. I can accept that he has forgotten it but wonder, if he will remember it later on in the series. As to what became of it, well my guess is that he would have given it to his children or grandchildren to play with. It is probably still in Susan’s old toy box which she must have hidden in her Tardis like pockets when they fled Gallifrey as it appeared that they left empty handed. (Along with the Doctor’s cot.) I did toy with the notion that it was Susan who handed the toy down but I could fit the orphange and Danny into that. I am still trying though. 🙂

    Lastly the references to eyes that seem significant and linked to Clara. She has very expressive eyes and I think Moffat is playing on that. I loved her face when she realised whose bed it is when she is hiding under. She certainly does act with her eyes.

    And lastly lastly, I don’t think there is a monster though it appears impossible for the Doctor to have written Listen on the blackboard in the beginning because we are watching him that entire time. Every other monster incidence canbe explained. The face of the creature on the bed was humanlike or Sontaran like. It did look bald but that might have been due to the light behind it. Was the orphange a sontaran cloning factory?? Is Danny a clone too?? Ok. I’ll head for the coat rack..

    Cheers

    Janette

     

    #31847
    lisa @lisa

    So the Doctor waits with the Tardis in Clara’s bedroom and then next scene is connecting her to the Tardis to pick her brain- I think he is still investigating Clara -that felt like a sub current in the story for me

    Btw -all of your here are absolutely brilliant !!

    #31848
    janetteB @janetteb

    @arbutus  I agree absolutely re’ Capaldi’s Doctor but had to chuckle at your comment,

    Someone on the Guardian blog called him “amoral and uncaring” (meaning it as a good thing, to be fair). But I really can’t agree with that

    Poor psychopaths. Dr Who with all its empathy and compassion must a hard slog for them. At times it seems that Capaldi is achieving what Colin Baker wanted to do, to make his Doctor more alien, clumsy at times, not responding in the way a human would. However when it comes to social ineptness he now has a rival in Danny Pink. Danny, if not a timelord, then at least connected to a Gallifreyan, which bring me back to  something that I find rather niggling. Why an orphange? Seems rather Dickensian. I doubt there were many children in orphanages by the time of Clara’s childhood. If he wanted to show a child alone MOffat could easily have had Danny in a boarding school it being the Uk and all that. I also suspect that when Danny says he was with family he is lying or at the very least, hiding something. I got the distinct impression that both he and Clara were keeping back a hell of a lot in that scene just as Orson is doing later on.

    @purofilion. I agree re’ the monster. I am happy for it to be non existant, but above all I don’t want the answer to that riddle. Never quite knowing is what gives the story its power. We are left to fear the monster under the bed which is so much scarier when you don’t know just what the monster is.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #31849
    Joehovah @joehovah

    @geoffers I just watched the extras episode you mentioned, Orson is very particular about his wording when giving the tour of the ship. Also when you see the Jumpsuited spaceman / woman, you never see their face; the camera does talk to Dan / Orson about how he wants to be up on the wires too…..but it never really shows HIM saving the doctor.

    I love the comments Danny makes about the wells and to possibly have a descendant called Orson, a nice tip of the hat to a great writer / actor.

     

    @colluphid The Cloister bell was something i pondered over too, the TARDIS has been close to black holes and a decompression outside wouldn’t phase it at all, however with the safeties off (and who knows what they prevent from happening) it could be many things.

    I personally like the idea of the TARDIS  trying to warn Clara, it looked like it tried to hold her inside the console and not let her go out to the orphanage and when she was with Orson while the doctor was unconscious it may well have been trying to warn her; but with the safeties off it limits the TARDIS interaction.

    So much speculation, i love it when a series builds up so much anticipation 😀

    #31850
    Anonymous @

    @xad4

    Nicely spotted! You’re right, they are different. I’ll have to re-watch it (again) to see if The Doctor rubbed the original out and rewrote it himself later. If he did, then it shows Clara was wrong about the first one being his handwriting.

    #31851
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @wcasey5    Actually, I’m good with “Awesome Pink”. More people should name their kids Awesome.   🙂

    @janetteb    At times it seems that Capaldi is achieving what Colin Baker wanted to do, to make his Doctor more alien, clumsy at times, not responding in the way a human would.     Yes. It’s interesting really. Back before the series began, when people were busily anticipating a “darker Doctor”, Six often came up. But I don’t actually see much of Six in Capaldi’s Doctor, other than maybe the tendency to insult people. I also felt that Matt Smith was creating a more alien Doctor than his predecessor, but as time went on, I started feeling that difference less. There were lots of wonderful moments in Series 5 where I remember thinking, wow, very non-human now. But I think he got more human later on, as he grew more overtly attached to Amy and Rory, and various other friends. At the end, he was begging Amy not to leave him. Remember Four dropping off Sarah Jane in Aberdeen or wherever it was, with barely a goodbye? And leaving Leela on Gallifrey, unwillingly to admit that he would miss her until she could no longer hear him? I can’t see Twelve wearing his heart on his sleeve for any companion. (As a small boy of my acquaintance would say, he is “not a hugging and kissing boy”!)

    #31852
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @xad4    @fatmaninabox     Wow! Although they could be the same handwriting (the S’s look similar), but definitely not the same version. So what’s going on here? Bonkers theories, anyone?

    #31853
    TheBrainOfMoffat @thebrainofmoffat

    This one’s quite a bit more tenuous than my last idea about the Doctor’s memory, but scrutinizing characters’ words so much got me thinking about a line from Deep Breath: Strax warns Clara to watch out for fluid retention. Combined with the two (?) mentions of Clara’s mortality in as many episodes and the Doctor’s question, in Deep Breath, of how long she can hold her breath for, I’m wondering if these are hinting that Clara is going to drown. The fluid retention need not be connected, of course, but it just seems like something that could be picked up on and run with in a different direction than the obvious interpretation, as well as the “how long” question.

    Also, again concerning the Doctor’s memory: Assuming all three pieces of evidence I mentioned in my last post are true instances of memory loss, could it be that the Doctor has at least one other personality? Could the Master possibly have been hidden inside the regeneration energy the Doctor received on Trenzalore (because the Master can do weird stuff like that — consult the 90’s movie and the End of Time two-parter)? Might the Time Lords who made the decision to gift the Doctor with more lives have built something strange into said energy (doesn’t make a lot of real world sense, but this show takes plenty of liberties)? Maybe something that would prompt the Doctor to find Gallifrey ASAP (e.g. forcing regenerations at an ever-quickening pace, with bad memory being a symptom)?

    I’m not particularly fond of the term “bonkers”, but I believe it might be the term used to describe what I just said. Let me know what you think.

    #31854
    geoffers @geoffers

    @arbutus – i share your p.o.v. re: post #31834. i would rather all the info be in the episode, too. each ep would have to be about 70 mins, tho, to do so comfortably (so, here in america, where there are commercial interruptions, 90 mins would be perfect). ‘deep breath,’ for me, felt just a tad too long, with just a tad of “padding” in it, but since most eps are 45-50 mins, it felt more like they were including bonus minutes, and deleted scenes! i like those extra minutes that allow an episode to breathe a little, and not feel rushed…

    I now feel a little bit like the person being shown a shape and asked “What is it?”, and after agonizing over all the possibilities, I’m told, “It’s a triangle.”” i have felt this way since the end of tennant’s time! in my (our) efforts to try to guess what’s going on, in the long game, i (we) explore every conceivable avenue of twists and turns, when the actual way the story arcs unfold is rather straightforward and linear! (if only in hindsight.) i (we) do so happily, tho, because it’s a fun way to “interact” with my (our) favourite show. and i don’t want that to change, as it’s become half the fun of watching the show! i really do respect how moffat has elevated the craft of writing an episode, to squeeze in all that he possibly can, while keeping it within the allotted 45-50 runtime. in that sense, i’m grateful that they can do something like ‘dw extra,’ to give that tiny bit of extra exposition that (perhaps) they weren’t able to cram into the final broadcast version. (i loved the prequels of the last couple seasons of matt’s run for the same reason…)

    having said all that, tho, most of what was presented in the ‘extra’ for ‘listen’ can be arrived at just by watching the show, i think. it may just take multiple watches, for some of us (and a superhuman ability to recognize a triangle when we see one)!! lol.

    🙂

    #31855
    geoffers @geoffers

    @scaryb(Just a thought – Gallifrey is no longer timelocked, but just (very well) hidden (another hidden thing?) after the Doctors zapped it away from the Dalek assault in Day of the Doctor. Maybe that’s why they were able to land on it, in its past. Its present whereabouts may not be accessible but its previous where((and when)-abouts are accessible again. At least when the TARDIS safeties are off.

    this point makes sense to me, but it also touches on something i’ve been wondering since ‘deep breath.’ at what point in twelve’s timeline will he go off to help remove the previously doomed gallifrey from the universe, as portrayed in ‘the day of the doctor?’ moffat has stated that he always intended for that scene to be in there, even before the twelfth doctor was cast, so does he plan to reveal to us exactly when that decision is made (in the current, or possibly even the next, series)?

    it appears obvious to me (and, so, probably ISN’T obvious at all?) that one of the things twelve has forgotten is that gallifrey is hidden away in a pocket universe. it could also partly be why he’s wondering if he’s “a good man” (i.e. he still thinks he destroyed all those children on gallifrey)? eleven knew, before (and because) he regenerated, that he had successfully moved gallifrey, but does twelve? i don’t think so. and, as for the rest of this series (and however many others capaldi sticks around for), i don’t think the doctor can have it as his mission to restore gallifrey, until he regains those memories…

    or am i missing something?!

     

    #31856
    Anonymous @

    @geoffers – You have changed my mind now that you mention how the American version is chopped anyway, I wish we had extras here too.  That way we could see the same thing as in Britain, with the rest of the time filled with the extras show to fit the schedule.   Someone else needs to talk to the higher ups though, since I suspect they will not be taking my advise anytime soon after reading my Dino Missy theory.  😳

    @xad4, @arbutus, @fatmaninabox – Re ‘Listen”:  The Monsters are Real  🙄

    #31857
    geoffers @geoffers

    @janettebFirstly Orson. When we first meet him he seems happy, pleased to have been rescued but his demeanour changes about the time he realises who Clara is. I think when the Doctor asks about old photos the expression on his face implies that he does recognise Clara but cannot admit it. Everyone in this episode is keeping secrets except the Doctor.

    LOL! i know what you are saying there, but do you really think the doctor doesn’t have a billion more secrets he’s keeping from his companions (and from us)?  i’m of the opinion that the only time the doctor is completely honest is when he’s admitting he’s made a mistake (as in ‘deep breath,’ where he’d assumed all along that HFM placed the ad in the paper)… or when he’s apologizing for something!

    if he wasn’t so adamant about being a doctor, i’d bet money that he’s a lawyer, the way he lies and withholds information so much…

    🙂 🙂 🙂

    #31858
    Anonymous @

    @geoffers

    i don’t think the doctor can have it as his mission to restore gallifrey, until he regains those memories… or am i missing something?!

    I’m trying to think of something but can’t.  I wish you didn’t bring that up, since by the multiple timeline theory, Gallifrey should not be inside the paintings until 12 does it.  

    The one thing that might explain it is,  12 should know that he will do it in the future (since 11 knew), so maybe that is not the reason for the “am I a good man?”.  But I agree Gallifrey shouldn’t be in the paintings until he does it though? 

    Unless Bad Wolf did some weird thing, creating a fixed point for 12 that he must do, since Gallifrey is already in the paintings. And he helped put it there. 

    Maybe  those Time Creatures show up again if he misses his appointment with Bad Wolf on that day. 🙂

    #31859
    geoffers @geoffers

    @handles – i forgot to mention the exquisite shorts that moffat produced, like “first night,” and “last night,” that added a bit to our knowledge of river’s relationship with eleven. if you haven’t seen those, check them out on youtube. “extra” knowledge isn’t exactly necessary, but it surely can’t hurt, sometimes, especially if it adds to or enhances our understanding of the series as a whole… 🙂

    Someone else needs to talk to the higher ups though, since I suspect they will not be taking my advise anytime soon after reading my Dino Missy theory.

    lol, don’t give up so soon! if your dino missy theory doesn’t hold up for this series, maybe you’ve still planted a seed of an idea in moffat’s (or some future writer’s) brain!!

    😉

    #31860
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus @geoffers @janetteb -I’ve read your post via Geoff’s re the craft of the episode. Beautifully put, Janette.

    Well, after my initial short sighted ‘meh’ I thought I’d sum up my thoughts about this deceptively put-together episode. It was a multitude of fractal patterns: spinning out and in with every change of feeling imaginable. When it was finished the episode seemed even more rich and textured. Not a lot of writers can do that with such clarity and unpredictability.

    Moffat’s all about exquisite understatement with acute observation. From the warmth of a restaurant to the chilling end-of-the-universe this little ‘Chapter’ of Clara and Danny, Orson and the Doctor unfolds with a lingering resonance where every scene is nuanced and we’re invited to dissect motive, cause and consequence. There’s a pathos to Dan’s and Clara’s truce but an uneasy alliance between Clara and Orson which heralds future turmoil -for them-  but adds a temporary symmetry to this immediate period.

    After each viewing, I saw a Doctor distracted, bleak, with a razor sharp wit. He’s a complex being: eerie and disturbed. He’s smooth, too; intricate, neat. He desires solitude, loves his mad calculations, but with typical charm calls on his best friend -who, with every minute is becoming surprisingly imperious, skilful but still sweet and compassionate.

    Kindest, puro.

    #31861
    thommck @thommck

    @bluesqueakpip, @scaryb @pedant

    why did the Doctor have him enter the restaurant sealed inside a spacesuit?

    Don’t forget, the Doctor hasn’t met Danny yet.

    Neither Orson or the Doctor knew that Clara was in the restaurant with Danny, so the intention wasn’t to stop Orson and Danny meeting, more likely to look unearthly enough to make Clara follow the spaceman and break off her date, again

    #31862
    Anonymous @

    equally true @thommck was that this was a test ‘flight’ explained by the Doctor to prove all was well to a nervous ‘shadowed’ Orson.

    #31863

    @janetteb

     Why an orphange? Seems rather Dickensian

    Most of Action for Children (formerly Nation Children’s Homes) are now closed, but it wasn’t really until well into the 90s that the full shift to smaller scale residential care was done, so it is just about credible.

    Here ya go

    #31865
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Arrgh! I’m thick! Thick, thick, thick!

    Or possibly there was a perception filter operating. I wouldn’t put it past Moffat. 🙂

    We’re happily saying ‘oh, yeah, Dan the Soldier Man is a family heirloom. That’s why Orson gave it to Clara’. BUT, the last person you’d give a family heirloom to is the person who’s given/left it to you in the first place!

    For one thing, that would mean that there would be two versions of Dan the Soldier Man in the same place and time, which would lead to either a minor electrical discharge (like the Sonic in Big Bang) or outright disaster (Mawdryn Undead).

    Orson, I’d say, knows more than he’s letting on. He’s recognised Clara; not as his ancestor, but as the person he has to give Dan the Soldier Man to. The cheap and broken little toy, after all, has been placed in a trophy case as if it’s extremely precious and important. And if it’s the toy that helped make the Doctor, then that’s exactly what it is. Will be. (Why doesn’t English have decent tenses for time travel?)

    The reason his manner changes, btw, might well be like the way River’s attitude to Donna changes when she learns Donna’s name. That was another Moffat script; like River, Orson is from the future and knows what will happen to Clara.

    #31866
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip if that’s the case -and there was a ‘minor electrical discharge’, would it be a problem? Ok. Stupid question. And I’ve forgotten when the perception filter could have been placed?

    #31867
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @janetteb

    Why an orphange?

    It makes it immediately clear that he’s in foster care, which means the one-liner about ‘family stuff’ is pretty certain to be some kind of plot point. Or a set-up for Danny later producing a son or daughter to show that Clara never was Orson’s great-grandmother. Courtney? Could be, because the headteacher introduces Danny to Clara as if he’s a new teacher, but talks about him as if he’s known him for years.

    The point that he’s in foster-care suggests that – say – a villain who can retrieve people from death might have a very powerful hold over Danny. Lots of references to Mawdryn Undead in Danny’s background and this episode. In Mawdryn Undead a future companion is offered something he wants badly in exchange for killing the Doctor. If Danny’s an orphan, the thing he wants badly is something Missy can give. In that case the ‘family stuff’ is connected to Missy (and that’s why we don’t have an overt reference to the ‘Promised Land’ arc).

    A less dramatic reason for making it obvious Danny was in foster-care would be to give all those fostered children watching a positive role model. Danny had a bad start, ended up a caring and responsible soldier (a career which is often very attractive to fostered kids as it gives them both order and a substitute family) and is now a teacher. Even if Danny is doing a Turlough that would still hold, providing he’s going to end up on the good side.

    #31868
    Anonymous @

    Ah hah @bluesqueakpip yes, you know I thought that we’ve been set up to believe that Clara is Orson’s ancestor -maybe yes, maybe no was my opinion but in this case, we’re working one step at a time: Clara’s ‘behind’ in his history and he’s ahead in hers?

    #31869

    I think we may be letting Moff’s economical writing style suck us into plot-obsession-as-compulsive-itch-scratching.

    Two men, both once frightened and lonely children, reflected in each other through the eyes of a kind, but strong and decisive, teacher.

    No tricksy or bizarre relationships – just good story showing, though the medium of “find the lady”.

    #31870
    thommck @thommck

    Just good story writing @pedant???

    Have you met us?

    😉

    #31871

    Ah, but the secret of good Bonkers Theorising(TM) is that it is bold in sweep and recognises that the redness or blueness of bow ties (or surnames) is much more important than the genetic relationships.

    Without that it is mere theorising, and who wants that? 🙂

    #31872
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant – ah, but we’re promptly sucked into ‘bizarre relationships’ by meeting Orson. 😉

    #31873

    @bluesqueakpip

    Yes, but what does his absence of a bow tie tell about his quantum entanglement?

    #31874
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant – you’re missing the point. It’s the absence of the shirt. The jumper clearly signifies that this is a ‘Dark Doctor’ with glints of light shining through.

    He is the darkness without which we can’t see the stars.

    #31875

    @bluesqueakpip – well, quite. And given that we have known from the very first episode that the Doctor is a father, and that we now know that he has Mad Dad Skillz, we can say with some confidence that Susan bought him the shirt (taking advice from Romana).

    #31876
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip

    He is the darkness without which we can’t see the stars.

    That’s beautifully phrased, love it. (I also much prefer the jumper to the white shirt, but that’s just me 🙂 )

    Also loved the big close-up on the young Doctor’s pupil at the end, showing it full of stars. (Continuing the seeing/not seeing and eyes imagery which people have picked up on throughout this series. This one might be called Listen, but it’s about the thing in the corner of your eye, the movement in the mirror (and Clara has 3 of them) which you don’t quite see)

    Just a thought – people have been speculating whether all life forms have the under the bed nightmare – maybe it is just humans. And the Doctor – because of his experience with Clara under the bed! It could also explain his affinity for humans – he’s had a very early, positive encounter with one – she soothed him back to sleep. I have no problem with him not consciously remembering any of this encounter. Dreams, even vivid ones, and middle of the night experiences, fade away in the light of day.

    And I agree, we could have a lot more to learn about Danny. (Good point @thommck – you’re right, the Doctor hasn’t met Danny yet).  I’m keeping an eye on Courtney too (aka Whitney on @danmartinuk‘s blog 😉 )

    @Handles Twelve could already have done the thirteen Doctors at Gallifrey thing – there have been gaps between every episode so far. In fact his obviously reflective mood at the beginning of Listen could suggest he’s just come from there!

    #31877
    Mudlark @mudlark

    Expletive deleted!  I have just lost two almost complete drafts of posts as a result of interruptions.  Maybe the third attempt will be successful.

    The debate about whether or not the monsters are real has reminded me of the invisible monster in the film Forbidden Planet. The monster was real enough, because it had dangerous physical effects, but it turned out to be a projection of the darkest fears and primeval instincts of the people living on the planetary base.  The Doctor has recovered from his immediate post-regeneration fugue, but this was not a normal regeneration and maybe he is still experiencing longer term effects, stirring up old fears in his subconscious mind.  Could it be that the monster or monsters are therefore projections from his subconscious,  perhaps amplified by the telepathic field of the Tardis?

    As for the reality or otherwise of the monster outside Orson Pink’s capsule, he has been on his own for months, stranded at the end of the universe, and I doubt if there are many people could remain entirely sane in those circumstances. He would be experiencing cabin fever ratcheted up to the nth degree, with every sound from the operating of the capsule and the heating and cooling of the hull magnified in his consciousness and grating on his nerves.  The warning sign on the door might not be to remind him that there is something out there which could get in, but to remind him to resist the impulse to go outside, because there is nothing and it would be fatal.  What we see is what happens after the arrival of the Doctor, which is left ambiguous, but the banging on the hull sounds purposeful (cf the unseen entity in  ‘Midnight’ which the Doctor might be reminded of in this environment) and, unless there is something I missed, the door appears to start opening on its own and the Doctor is the only one who wants to see what is out there.  So is he unwittingly causing these effects?

    Changing the subject slightly, there are differences in the shots of the word LISTEN on the chalkboard, as @xad4 so cleverly spotted, but they both look to be written in the same hand which Clara recognises is the Doctor’s, even though the Doctor has no recollection of having written it. The difference might be the result of a slight glitch in continuity (boring explanation), but perhaps both the difference and the fact that the Doctor could not remember writing it in the first place is because he has been doubling back on his timeline, as in Flesh and Stone, always assuming that the Tardis can enable such a thing within herself. (I don’t think anyone else has suggested this, but if they have, my apologies; I haven’t had time to reread all the posts on this thread).

    @purofilion  I haven’t yet had time for a second viewing, but on the strength of the first I agree entirely with your revised thoughts on the episode; it struck me immediately as a beautifully crafted piece of writing.  So much so that I ventured to read some of the comments on Dan’s blog on the Guardian sight, thinking that very few of even the most determined critics of Moffat as show runner and writer would not be able to find much to complain of here.  How wrong I was!  For everyone who loved it or even liked it moderately there was someone saying that they found it over complicated/too self-referential/a tired recycling of old ideas and plots/the characters two dimensional/the monsters not frightening because they were not shown etc. etc.(strike whatever is inapplicable) and that Moffat is therefore a bad writer (not sure I follow the logic there).  I can understand those who would prefer the show to be more like ‘proper’ science fiction, or for there to be more action and less talk – that is a matter of taste – but I find it surreal, the way people can watch the same thing and come away with such radically different opinions of the merits or otherwise of the writing, dialogue and construction.

     

     

     

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