Part 3 – Once, Upon Time
14 November 2021 at 17:55 #72384Craig @craigEmperor
It’s part 3. Time is beginning to run wild. On a planet that shouldn’t exist, in the aftermath of apocalypse the Doctor, Dan, Yaz and Vinder face a battle to survive.
I don’t have much to say – except that Vinder is mentioned in the short write up, but is not credited on the BBC website – weird. This is once again written by Chibnall. This time it’s directed by a reasonable new-comer, Azhur Saleem, who was 2nd Unit on ‘Baghdad Central’ and is working on Neil Gaiman’s ‘Anansi Boys’.
We’re heading for the midpoint of a six-part story. So once again, fingers crossed.14 November 2021 at 20:40 #72390Juniperfish @juniperfish
Blimey, well that was a bit of a head-spinner.
This episode One, Upon Time perhaps takes us back, by allusion, to the episode in which Capaldi regenerated into Whit-Doc – as that episode was titled Twice Upon a Time.
As we are meeting Jo Martin’s “Fugitive Doctor” again, it seems confirmed she’s a previous incarnation whose existence has been wiped from our Doc’s memory. Do the episode title parallels suggest she’s between Capaldi-Doc and Whit-Doc, or are we still thinking much further back (pre-Hartnell)?
The Passenger seems Time-Lordy to me – bigger on the inside. Similar to the Genesis Ark which imprisoned millions of daleks during the Time War.
The Mouri and the Doctor seem natural allies, as controllers of time.
Of course, in Greek mythology the Moirai were agents of fate. Atropos cuts the thread of each mortal’s life, when the time comes – such a reference pressages Whit-Doc’s demise (regeneration).
So Swarm and Azure are “poison” introduced into the universe by whom? Was the old(er) woman giving the “poison” speech a Time Lord agent? She certainly seems to view this poison as a cleansing kind of cure.
Bel (the girl with the Irish accent and Tamagotchi pet) is searching for her loved one, Vinder, through broken time. Dan is now doing the same, as the Passenger has captured his date. Both sets of parted lovers narratively mirror the Doctor and Yaz. Why are Weeping Angels hunting Yaz in particular?
Visually this was stunning – from gold daleks to the exquisite crystalline faces of Swarm and Azure and the golden livery of The Grand Serpent.
Perhaps The Grand Serpent is a reference to an ouroboros – the universe with its tail in its mouth, ending and beginning? It seems we are chasing the Doctor’s origin story, which is also the Time Lords; origin story.14 November 2021 at 22:09 #72391Devilishrobby @devilishrobby
I’m not sure what I think about this episode, I think I’m gonna need to watch again just to absorb everything. The part towards the end had me thinking of the third face of fate the thread cutter Atropos and her comment about the flux being engineered struck me. I’m also wondering if we’re actually looking at some kind of version of the “heaven/hell” that Missy Master created in Dark Water/Death in Heaven and this is all in the Doctors head. Too tired to think straight at the moment so as I said another viewing needed.14 November 2021 at 22:25 #72392Charlie Cook @charlie-cook
At the risk of facing the wrath of fellow Whovians, that was totally incomprehensible….15 November 2021 at 02:40 #72396
OK, I have to say, I actually really enjoyed this. I read a lot of complaints at t’other place about incoherence and overt exposition, but I thought it was surprisingly easy to follow. It was about time being fractured, and I thought it did it quite well. It was also very emotional, particularly in relation to Vinder and his lost love.
Indeed, I am really surprised by how much I have enjoyed the three episodes so far. If only Chibnall had begun this way…
I particular liked the appearance of Barbara Flynn at the end. I really, really, hope she comes back!15 November 2021 at 03:47 #72399
A question to anyone who knows anything about TV production. This season is visually really impressive. Lots of CGI and lots less running though old rock quarries.
I am assuming that all the CGI visuals are expensive in comparison to people running through rock quarries, but I just do not know. Or did they fly cast and crew to exotic locations before Covid? And was that where they previously spent the money? Again, I just do not know.15 November 2021 at 09:40 #72404BadWolfAlice @badwolfalice
I rather liked this episode, even if it was a huge onslaught of information. ‘Once, Upon Time’ is one of the best episode titles ever, right?
I think I mostly followed what was going on but the thing I’m most confused about is what the ‘Passengers’ are. Not quite sure whether we’re supposed to understand that yet.15 November 2021 at 10:10 #72405MissRori @missrori
I’m getting increasingly frustrated by all the Stuff being tossed about in this story arc. While I didn’t find this episode especially confusing, I am having a hard time working up the energy to care about anything since we’re not really getting to know any of these new characters (except maybe Vinder) and their relationships beyond basic/generic traits. And all the timey-wimey jumping in the first half especially just felt irrelevant, like Chibnall had about 15 minutes worth of plot but had to pad things to 55 minutes.
In the most recent season of Mystery Science Theater 3000, one movie they poked fun at was The Day Time Ended, a low-budget end of the 1970s production about a family in Arizona whose house is arbitrarily in the middle of a conjunction of supernovas, whereupon all sorts of random alien activity begins to bedevil them. In one of the interstitial sketches, the robot Tom Servo plays a Music Man-type of huckster advising the movie’s screenwriters not to have a clear 3-act structure or anything like that, but just fill the movie with “concepts!” It was hard not to think of that here!15 November 2021 at 21:49 #72409Mudlark @mudlark
Judging by Martin Belam’s recap and an initial quick scan of some of the comments BTL, it seems that there are a lot of people who found this episode completely baffling, with a confused structure and too many chunks of exposition, and although – with the aid of subtitles – I didn’t find the gist of it too difficult to follow, on another level I can see why.
Chibnall’s intention was presumably to convey the bewilderment of those tangled in a completely disrupted time stream, being wrenched constantly and randomly between past, present and future, while the Doctor, who has at least some idea of what is going on, tries to keep her companions safe, prevent Swarm and Azure from creating further havoc with their tampering and, at the same time, recover further information about her forgotten past. In this he certainly succeeded, but I am left with the feeling that all this could have been achieved more economically and with greater clarity for the viewer. He seems to be aiming for Moffat style levels of complexity without the particular skills to achieve it. I couldn’t help wondering what the children who watched made of it, although no doubt most of them took it in their stride; they usually do, even when the adults flounder.
One of the more confusing factors is the way in which Yaz, Vinder and Dan are visualised as active and knowledgeable participants in events in which predate their existence. In the case of the Doctor, reliving events of which she has no conscious memory, it is understandable she should visualise companions she knows in place of her actual companions in the Division, whose identity she cannot recall. But there seems no obvious reason why Vinder should see Yaz, whom he has only just met, in place of people he actually knew, in a past which he can remember only too clearly. On the other hand, at least we now know how Vinder came to be in the isolated outpost in which we first encountered him.
The Cybermen and the Daleks made cameo appearances, exploiting the disruption of space and time in the same manner as the Sontarans but to rather less effect; but I did like the sight of Daleks levitating along a forest track. * The Weeping Angels are also in on the act, sinister as ever, and this time stalking Yaz for some as yet unexplained reason. The role of the Mouri/Moirae as stabilisers of Time is now fairly clear, but what is not so clear to me is why Time should have needed to be stabilised prior to the advent of the Flux which, if I understood correctly, is in any case a spatial agent. Chibnall’s concept of the relationship between space and time is definitely not one which could stand up to scientific scrutiny, but I’m happy to go along with it for now, disbelief suspended on a fairly strong cable.
Nice to see that Craig Parkinson, formerly the corrupt cop ‘Dot’ Cotton aka ‘the Caddy’ in Line of Duty, has been promoted to Grand Serpent, evidently a ruthless dictator. Maybe he is up to the job, but as an example of evil he is certainly no match for Swarm, who is now channelling Milton’s Lucifer in his ambition to ‘reign in Hell’.
* Well, the sight of Daleks tripping over tree roots and rabbit holes would rather undermine the implicit threat.16 November 2021 at 19:26 #72421Whisht @whisht
Hi all – so “Bel’s Story”.
To be honest I found her story quite dull (I’m assuming Bel is the character with the Northern Irish accent).
She crosses space to reach her lover and… well we see them ‘together’ but I’m not sure I’m invested enough.
I don’t think I care enough about her or Vinder and that’s not a great place to be (maybe its me).
Which is a shame as quite a bit of screentime is given over to them. Its just… I’m just not sure I care enough.
Oddly Yaz’s and Dan’s multiple roles mean I care slightly less about them – until she’s Yaz and he’s Dan.
Then I care.
But something about her and Dan being other people dilutes my empathy toward them.
I agree with @mudlark in that this was perhaps trying to be Moffat-esque.
But rather than “timey wimey” it felt a little “Timey whiny” which is not good.
Just felt like a lot of the Doctor shouting “I’ll help you!” “I want to see more!” and… doing neither.
However, even if I think its uneven, I actually think there is a convoluted grand-plan from Chibnall.
I’m not sure what it is but I’ll watch to discover.
Swarm and Azure.
Red and Blue.
or something.16 November 2021 at 19:46 #72422JimTheFish @jimthefishTime Lord
Well, looking at t’Other Place and the hellsite that is Twitter, it looks like the reception to this episode has been surprisingly muted. Even this thread is a bit quieter than those for the previous eps. And to be honest, I’ve been holding off on posting because I’m not sure how I feel about it myself.
It’s certainly the weakest of the three episodes, although I’m putting that down to Covid restrictions during filming to an extent. And was it just me or was the CGI a bit ropey and unfinished-looking in this one. The shots of the Doc and the Morai in the Time Storm could even have come from a BG episode.
And when you get down to it, this was largely a colossal expository infodump (as predicted by @phaseshift, only a little earlier than expected). In many ways, this was essentially The Timeless Children redux — lots of standing around (or floating around) in a cold, empty chamber while plot and technobabble is flung around with manic abandon. Though it surprises me that the Timeless Children was (relatively) well received while this ep seems to be taking something of a public beating.
Because I still found quite a bit too like in this episode. Much of this is down to JW who continues to be rocking her Doctor Mojo imo. And I think I just find this a more personable TARDIS line-up then we had previously. Lots of niggles though. Like that was an unusually forthcoming Cyberman. Jo Martin was once again wasted as the Fugitive Doc, showing up to give a few gnomic comments and not much else. Beyond Fugitive of the Judoon, they’ve really squandered the character’s potential, I think. I can’t say I felt any particular interest in the literally star-crossed lovers of Vinder and Bel either. I’m getting the feeling that if last series was Chibs attempting to channel the RTD era, this is shaping up to be his attempt at a Moffat pastiche. Although, the rather ham-fisted info-dumps are giving me a new appreciation of the deftness of how Moff handled his timey-wimey plotting.
It was cool to see Barbara Flynn finally in Who though. She’s always been pretty near the top of my list of ‘actors who really should have played the Doctor’ and hopefully we’ll see her again presently.
In terms of predictions/theories, I suspect that a) the whole Timeless Child/The Division plot thread is going to be resolved and contained by the end of this series and that the Passenger(s) are a gigantic plot McGuffin being put in place now in time for the finale. I wouldn’t be surprised if whole alternate universes come pouring out of them in due course.
Still, Village of the Angels looks quite promising. The trailer suggest chills and the setting has that nice folk horror vibe that really is Who’s home turf. I do hope that Chibs manages to pull it off.16 November 2021 at 20:04 #72423Brewski @brewski
Going back for a re-watch because frankly I haven’t figured out enough to comment yet.
Except this: Vindar reported that the Grand Serpent’s condition for the alliance was the deaths of some innocent people.
The commander scoffs at this: “It wasn’t on the recording”.
Vindar: “He made me stop the recording.”
Um… isn’t The Grand Serpent saying, “Stop the recording,” ON the recording??16 November 2021 at 20:47 #72424Brewski @brewski
Ok, so they’ve already telegraphed how 13 is going to die: broken by messing around in her timestream.
She wants to go back to find clues to her hidden past life.
Except… she already has one! Karnavista. Wouldn’t it be best to just look him up again and say, “I know I used to work with you. Tell me what you know.” Gotta be less risky than timestreaming…16 November 2021 at 21:05 #72425nerys @nerys
I find myself with @blenkinsopthebrave on this. I have been surprised at how much I have enjoyed these episodes, considering how underwhelmed I have felt by much of what has preceded them. I can’t explain exactly why I feel this way, except that at least there seems to be some direction in the story arc. Previous Chibnall-helmed episodes have felt either directionless or overly forced. I’m not getting that vibe here. Even though the direction isn’t entirely clear to me, at least there is a sense of momentum.
Sadly, my husband (who I know saw the Ruth episode) does not remember her. So that shows you what a strange run this has been. I think he was so annoyed by the whole “mucking with history” element, to the point that he didn’t even watch the season finale, that he jettisoned it all from his memory.16 November 2021 at 21:38 #72426Craig @craigEmperor
I have some time tonight – so I’m going to say it’s still messy.
Production looks lovely, mostly (big props to props) but the plot has no direction yet. Also on Photoshop or After Effects I can do me, or any of you, in a space cloud in front of Gods (my friends in robes), or waving blue bee clouds. It’s easy in about 10 minutes. Maybe it’s a nod to 80s Who? But that seems a bad hill to die on for Chibnall.
I’m sorry. I really wanted to love this but at the moment I’m underwhelmed. And I love Doctor Who, and I want to really love it again. I mean – this is my website, so obviously.
You know when you get to that stage with an ex-partner? When you say we had amazing fun, we made each others life fantastic for a while, but it’s probably over?
We don’t hate each other, because we remember all the good times. And we still love each other because of all those good times. They were amazing because they were part of your life.
I love you, but honestly, I’m kinda feeling like that right now. I’ll be here for the end of the series but I’m so sad.
I’ll probably turn this website into a chatroom so all of you lovely people who have made so many connections all over the world (which is one of the most amazing things I have ever achieved) can still stay in touch.
Still, maybe the second half will be good – or maybe the specials next year. Or maybe the return of RTD.
So I’ll keep on keeping on, for now, despite feeling like I’m in the middle of breaking up with someone who I really used to love.17 November 2021 at 04:41 #72433
@craig Say it ain’t so! No, really, hear me out. There was a time, it seems ages ago (and it was) when a core group of us–some still around, some who drifted, and some who passed–found a connection with a love of Who that did not really connect with all the criticism and (I must say it) bile that was in evidence on t’other place, when Moffat took over from RTD. You were our saviour, by starting up this site.
But it was never really about Moffat v. RTD. it was about a genuine love of Who, from 1963 on. That was what united all of us, and that was still unites us. Don’t go.
Damn…my iPad is about to die from lack of juice, but…don’t go.
By the miracle of electricity I will be back. And by the miracle of electricity, I hope you (and everyone) will be too.17 November 2021 at 12:59 #72435Cath Annabel @cathannabel
@craig What @blenkinsopthebrave said! Don’t go. Many of us are the ones who never quite gave up on Who, through multiple regenerations, through multiple writers and showrunners, through the glorious, the pedestrian and the downright rubbish stories. We’ve probably all fallen out of love with the show at certain times.
I am actually enjoying this series so far – perhaps through a desire to just get lost in a story, to let myself be blindsided repeatedly, without needing to understand where it’s all going. That may be partly down to where I am right now, still shell-shocked and bewildered about my life and my future, and taking refuge in a narrative that is arguably even more confused than I am. Or maybe I’m taking comfort in a show that has been a constant in my life from way way back (Troughton), and in my life with my husband (from Pertwee through to Whitaker).
But we all continue to watch for our own reasons, and we differ on the relative merits of specific Doctors, writers, showrunners, soundtrack composers or whatever, but we are still here. And that means a lot. And if you need to take a back seat for a bit, that’s fine, you’ve done something fantastic with this site, something we all value, something you should be very proud of. But don’t actually go, you know?17 November 2021 at 22:31 #72441Mudlark @mudlark
May I add my voice to those of @blenkinsopthebrave and @cathannabel . Please don’t give up on the show. Doctor Who has had its lows in the past, only to survive and flourish again, and however disappointing Chibnall’s run has been – and it has been his misfortune to follow immediately on the highs of Moffat’s tenure – there is always hope that, after his years away doing other things, RTD will return with fresh enthusiasm for the show and full of new ideas for its future continuation.18 November 2021 at 02:07 #72450winston @winston
@craig When I found this site I was a forum newbie and I lurked for a long time while still enjoying all that went on here. I finally joined in and I have loved it here ever since.This is a great place for Whovians of all ages , countries and walks of life, united in our love (sometimes dislike) of all things Who.
During the pandemic this place was somewhere for me to go to talk to people about all kinds of things like lock-downs and loneliness and toilet paper shortages, not to mention Who. This site and the people on it helped this isolated Canadian get through this trying time.You gave me that and I am so grateful. Please don’t go far.
Stay safe18 November 2021 at 19:09 #72459Juniperfish @juniperfish
I know it’s taken plenty of your time and energy (and some money too). It’s your gift, so if you’re weary, you should look after yourself first. We appreciate you.
But, I remember when @htpbdet was with us, and he just could not get on with Matt Smith’s Doctor. He knew however, that change would come.
And when @bluesqueakpip found that Capaldi Doc just did not do it for her? She too, knew that change would come.
As other wise folk on here have said before, the Doctor regenerates (and so do the showrunners). Soon enough we will be in a new RTD era, with a new Doctor, and it will all feel different again.
The Whit-Doc era has not been everything I hoped it would be, albeit the Tom Baker mash-up with Tilda Swinton’s Orlando, in lace and thigh boots, was always the stuff of my own peculiar fantasy.
What a bonkers, British institution Doctor Who is.
I hope, with my whole heart, that in another 50 years, it’s still going. Someone not-yet-born will fall truly, madly, deeply in love with it, and revive it (after a hiatus in the 2040s and 50s). The Tardis interior will be green, vegetative, ancient tree-like. The Doctor will be gendered in a way we don’t have a name for yet. A historical episode set in 2021 will encounter a young Greta Thunberg, and the kids of tomorrow will be as delighted and as awed, as we are to encounter Rosa Parks.19 November 2021 at 01:29 #72460JimTheFish @jimthefishTime Lord
I’ll just add my voice to the eloquent appeals above. I felt much the same way as you a year ago. I thought, I’ve finally gone past this (it only took 40-odd years) and that I was done. I was struggling to get through more than 10 minutes of a Chibs episode without my attention wandering. But this year, while it’s still far from perfect I’m starting to see glimmers again. But it’s not the first time this has happened. I completely stopped watching from Mid Colin Baker through to late McCoy and every time I caught a glimpse it was reinforced to me that I’d made the right decision. But then McCoy’s final year, while again far from perfect, started to show definite glimmers. It’s a cyclical process and it will in all likelihood happen again. And after the glimmers, often we get magic again.
And yet. And yet. 60 years is a ridiculously long time for a single narrative to unfold. And if you just take the AG series, then 16 years is an incredibly good run for a (not inexpensive) TV show in the current climate. I hope the show continues (and it looks like it is, for the short term) but I suspect a break is inevitable at some point and it might, in fact, be the best thing for the property as a whole.
But to the site itself, this has been just as much of an achievement. As @blenkinsopthebrave pointed out recently, we’ve all been here a long time now. And true, there’s not as many of us as there once was, and some names come and go, but as others have pointed out, it’s not just been about Who. This is a little community of sorts. We’ve seen @htpbdet come and sadly go. We had Shazz briefly rallying us together. We joined Puro through her first Buffy watch. And you were all very kind when I had a little indyref breakdown. And @scaryb and @wolfweed (where the hell are they?) have become occasional welcome faces at the odd geek event north of the Border. All those things have been deeply worthwhile experiences.
But all good things must come to an end and more than once over the past couple of years I’ve thought about hanging up my Sash of Rassilon too. If it’s stopped being fun — and we all owe you a real debt for creating this rather special place in the first place — then I can totally understand you wanting to step back from what must be a sink of time and energy (not to mention money). The site itself has had a remarkably good run and has seen some drama but lots of good times too but nothing lasts forever and as @juniperfish says, the priority must be your own happiness, wellbeing and peace of mind.
As the Doc says, ‘Everything ends and that’s always sad. But everything begins again too and that’s always happy. Be happy.’
(Oh, and am I the only one who totally wants to see @juniperfish‘s vision of the show realised? It sounds awesome. Or maybe it’s just a fish thing….)19 November 2021 at 03:38 #72462
The last paragraph of your post was the most inspirational thing I have read for ages. It just so perfectly captures why we are all here.19 November 2021 at 06:51 #72466Miapatrick @miapatrick
@craig, you created, as I remember, this site as an act of great kindness, as well as in your own enthusiasm, when a group of people on t’other place really wanted to keep talking about a Christmas episode – was the it Clara Snowmen one?
And I’ll admit, though I’ve found stuff to like and talk about, that urgency hasn’t been there in the current iteration. Personally I’d watched as a child, I’d watched RTDs Who, I’d love it at times but I fell in love with Moffart’s version and I don’t know if it will ever be like that again. But who’s to say (pun intended) Moffart Who started, after all, under RTD.
So yes of course, we’re getting new/old hands back after this, but is the magic gone? It’s possible, or a particular magic, that particular people love. I think I understand part of what you feel, and being a fan ought not to feel like an obligation, but it could be hard for it not to, especially when you literally run a fan site like this…
So I totally get it if you decide to step back, rather than hope for the return of the old feeling. I personally hope you don’t, but it’s your you, after all. But I am very grateful you set up and maintained this site, I’m so glad it was here for me to return to recently, with so many old faces so familiar and loved still holding on, and new faces, because that is the nature of the show (if not all the time, for everyone).
I’m liking this last series best, I think, of the current run. I think. I’m looking forward to re-watching through the whole season. I’m concerned that this one really is a series that would work better binged than watched week by week, I don’t know why, so much room to speculate and guess, but I don’t know – unlike the Marvel TV shows – I feel like it would work better consumed in one gulp. But that could be circumstantial, for me. I’m looking forward to seeing what RTD does, something somewhat different, I feel sure, from what he did the first time, time has passed, people change, the show changes. Maybe I’ll feel that enthusiasm again, that I used to. Maybe you will. Who, pun intended, again, knows?20 November 2021 at 05:22 #72472nerys @nerys
@craig I’m feeling a bit heartbroken for you, for feeling as you do. And yet, I can only echo what others have said. It’s also true that for me, this most recent iteration of Doctor Who has not been what I had hoped for. And yet, there have been some surprising moments. I keep hoping that this season will unwind in a satisfying way. We can only wait and see.
You have given us a great gift with this site. It’s a place where thoughtful people gather to collect and share their insights. I have enjoyed my time with this community. I hope it will continue. But really, that depends on whether you gain something from keeping it going. I will respect whatever decision you make, and remain grateful to you for all you have done for us.20 November 2021 at 10:53 #72476Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent
@craig I’m a relative newcomer, I arrived here following a remark in the Guardian comments section, at a time when the site was fairly dormant (no new episodes). It was surprising to find that some of the inhabitants had been here ‘forever’ – but they’re a friendly lot. I have no idea how I’ll find JW’s third season – I’ll probably get that far about the same time RTD takes over again. But meanwhile, it’s been a great place to discuss all of Who in a mostly positive fashion, and a lot besides.
So what I’m saying is, thankyou for this site. As the others have implied, if it closed tomorrow, it will have been a great experience, but I really do hope it continues for a long time yet. Allons-y!28 November 2021 at 01:30 #72544ScaryB @scaryb
Thanks @jimthefish for remembering me back into existance!
RL has been having a massive impact on my online DW life; ironically for life in a pandemic with lockdown etc I got really busy, and mostly been having to watch on catch up (sometimes several at a time). Also, with less scope for bonkers theorising in the last 2 seasons maybe some of the urgency has dissipated. Time passes. So it goes (as K. Vonnegut may have said). I do prefer my Dr Who on the bonkers weird side.
But it’s LOVELY to be back, and seeing some old familiar avatars. Waves at @juniperfish @miapatrick @blenkinsopthebrave @cathannabel @whisht @mudlark . Hope you’re all well in these decidedly weird times. (Been great to have a wander about – I see the pub’s had another makeover… I like it! 😛 ).
@craig – humungous thanks for all your hard work in setting up, and maintaining, this space, which is just as lovely (and just as big on the inside) as I remember it. 8 years is a remarkably long time for any online forum. It’s been fascinating being part of its evolution.
As @dentarthurdent says: “thank you for this site… if it closed tomorrow, it will have been a great experience, but I really do hope it continues for a long time yet. Allons-y!”28 November 2021 at 01:39 #72545ScaryB @scaryb
I actually really liked this episode. I found it relatively straightforward to follow, albeit in a bonkers sort of way. But I do like my Who on the weird side. I can still remember watching The Edge of Destruction (Hartnell, 1st season) waaaay back when I was about 6, and loving it despite being completely confused!
Seeing the header pic to this thread reminds me – why has everything gone all orangey since Chibs took over?! Colour schemes in TV series isn’t something I’m usually conscious of, but the orange bugs me. LOL!
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