World Enough and Time

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This topic contains 299 replies, has 43 voices, and was last updated by  Missy 2 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #59610
    MissRori @missrori

    @glasgowboy  According to Steven Moffat, what’s going to happen is that the ending of “The Doctor Falls” is going to have a twist that will lead directly into the Christmas episode’s events.  And Capaldi is coming back for Christmas, one more time.

    What might happen?  Who nose?  But Moffat’s gone on record as saying that while “The Doctor Falls” will be a bloodbath full of angst and sorrow, the Christmas special will be a story of redemption, hope, and moving on.

    #59612
    MissRori @missrori

    @thane15  I just want the Doctor and Bill to have a happy ending.  I read a comment elsewhere about how a viewer’s kids are heartbroken by Bill becoming a Cyberman.  Apparently, she is a very popular character with kids.  So the viewer wondered out loud if Bill is just going to bite the dust next week, since Moffat has nothing left to lose, even if it breaks the hearts of children around the world…(sniffle)

    But come on, why is just about everyone assuming a tragic final death is the only option for her now?  Even Clara got her wiggle room in the end.  The Doctor loves Bill, he’ll do anything to make up for not being able to help her sooner.  As I said, maybe love is all they need to break the spell.  Or Heather…

    What other solutions can we think of for how Bill will get her bittersweet ending and the Doctor’s hearts will be healed?  🙂

    #59617
    MissRori @missrori

    Also, with regards to the Doctor and Bill, I’m tired of all these folks elsewhere saying that it’s all his fault!  There’s chatter elsewhere chewing him out for putting Bill in danger and all with the Missy test, but she chose to help him; she knew him to be a trustworthy man and he was honest with her.  It’s like how a lot of people seemed to blame the Doctor for what happened to Clara in “Face the Raven”.  In the end, she made a risky choice, and she ended up getting into one of those situations the Doctor couldn’t do much, if anything, to affect in the end.  So did the Doctor and Bill, unfortunately.

    That said, as far as clarification goes, did the Doctor immediately bring down the lift once they had finished going back up with Bill, or did he waste time and breath explaining time dilation and stuff that he could have used to get there quicker?  Though, given the situation had years passing either way and the Master and company were ready anytime to give her the chop — it was just a matter of waiting until the Doctor was almost there — it was probably a lose-lose situation from the start.

    Also — one review pointed out that Bill spent more time with Mr. Razor/Saxon than she did with the Doctor.  How sad is that?  If she had been more wary once she was in the hospital, might she have had a better chance of escaping her fate?

    #59623

    @lisa

    If I were a young kid I’d have trouble sleeping tonight after this.

    Excellent Doctor Who still has its mojo.

    #59624

    @missrori

    Don’t lose track of where spoilers should go. Even Moff-approved spoilers.

    I read a comment elsewhere about how a viewer’s kids are heartbroken by Bill becoming a Cyberman.

    Good. That is Who doing its job. If it isn’t traumatising 7-year-olds it is failing.

    #59626
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    You can still see the live Q&A even though it’s not live any more. Well worth a watch, it’s like a Mini Prom, which I don’t think we’ve had since Matt Smith…….

    live Q & A  Just go to the videos part of the page  (I can’t link to the video itself)…….

    Nearly 200,000 views so far.

    countdown

    #59628
    pıtırcapaldi @pitircapaldi

    This episode really excellent but why are this sesion final episodes ? this new so bad ….

    well Steven Moffat do again a very nice script. There are together this episode,Master,Missy,Doctor

    How will you think these triple new episodes….Again waiting a week ……

    #59629
    MissRori @missrori

    @pedant 40 lashes with a wet noodle for me, sorry.

    Yeah, I know the show traumatizing kids is a beloved tradition at this point (as seen in last year’s BBC Christmas advert!) but there’s no justification Bill has to “die” for real if everybody else gets wiggle room.  She’s suffered enough and so has this Doctor.  😉  Besides, this Doctor’s never had an “everybody lives” style miracle yet.  Maybe he gets one for her.

    #59630
    Nick @nick

    @lisa

    re Missy not remembering (assuming Simm Master was a previous regeneration)

    It’s a convention from every multi-Doctor story ever written. If you go back to the 50th Special, the War Doctor (and Ecclestone Doctor) should have always known what happened when the Moment wasnt used. @bluesqueakpip wrote a blog post in that instance explaining how that might work (I also wrote a blog proposing a different explanation).

    I think the simplest explanation is that multi-Doctors have the adventure at exactly the same time in their personal time line, so there is no prior-knowledge to remember. Essentially the multi-doctor story rewrites each individuals Doctor’s personal history/memory simultaneously. Other explanations are out there I’m sure.

    Of course, it’s just as easy to propose the explanation lies within the master’s time line. We know that the Master has two sets of regenerations and we’ve never seen a Master regeneration on screen. Missy can easily be accommodated as a pre-Simm master with no knowledge of anything that happens in this adventure. There are more than the 6 Masters we’ve seen out there.

    #59631

    @nick

    50th Special, the War Doctor (and Ecclestone Doctor) should have always known what happened when the Moment wasnt used.

    Except that it was clearly explained in-text.

    #59632
    Nick @nick

    @missrori

    I’m not much into the blame game line of thinking, but

    Also, with regards to the Doctor and Bill, I’m tired of all these folks elsewhere saying that it’s all his fault!  

    in this case, he does have the majority of the responsibility.

    • It was his idea to let it be the Missy Who show as opposed his
    • Bill told him her very significant doubts and fears about Missy and his idea. he was quite blase about this.
    • He let the Patients take Bill away, with no effort to stop them (there was a weapon on the floor near by as a final option)
    • Worse still he was aware that a time dilation effect applied across the ship. He did dither about before heading off to rescue Bill, fully aware that minutes on Deck 1 were equivalent to months and years even on the lowest deck.

    Whatever happens to Bill, he has two stories left to make a difference !

    #59633
    Nick @nick

    @pedant

    Yes in that case, Moff made them all forget (something due to the regeneration wasnt it ?). However, as a general explanation it doesn’t work in any of the BG multi-Doctor specials.

    #59634
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    Okay, I’m going to try and embed the Q&A because @wolfweed is right – it’s a must watch. This might not work.

    Edit – it worked! You have to jump in a minute before it actually starts. Anyone would think I was good at this kinda thing. I honestly just muddle through!

    #59635
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    Also, as no one has posted this yet, here’s this week’s aftershow.

    #59636
    MissRori @missrori

    @nick  I think he was too shocked by her shooting to react fast enough to the nurses taking her away — and he didn’t know why that would be so bad yet, either.  (Also, he just isn’t big on guns.)  And you’re right about the dithering.  On the other hand, he had to deal with the Missy issue sometime, and I’m not sure how else he was going to find a way to test her properly…and given what was going on upstairs with the Master, he probably never would have made it up there in time even if he’d been quick as lightning to react.  The villain would have been ready to deal with that.  A lose lose all around.  🙁

    But I don’t agree that he has 2 stories left to make a difference; he wouldn’t be stumbling out into the snow if he weren’t all alone or he fails to make things work next week.  I think he’ll have to get this tied off in “The Doctor Falls”.  So it’s back to thinking about what he can and can’t do.  Can he use the TARDIS to go back in time and keep her from being shot, or just plow it through the black hole to at least stop the cyber-conversion?  Why isn’t he just hugging and kissing her now, to get her to remember love and throw it off all the tech the way Craig could?  😉

    Actually, as I suggested before, why not just accept her as she is?  That would be a triumph over evil in and of itself.  No matter what you do to my friends, I still love them and they love me!  Love conquers all…

    #59638
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    Also, can I now just say I am so glad John Simm has a proper goatee now. Goatees are cool!

    #59639
    Nick @nick

    @craig

    I think John Simm must have been awed by your magnificence’s fine visage, O Craig the Merciless.

    #59640
    lisa @lisa

    @nick

    Yes – the 50th anniversary multi Doctor out of time alteration stuff.

    So new bonkers theory is that since they are near the black hole and there are so

    many versions of time occurring at the ‘same time’  then maybe this could

    mean that Missy doesn’t recall these events in a normal time sequence?

    Its another/new revision of the events?  Very Moff actually.

    I also happen to think that as you travel up to the top of the ship there will be

    the advanced armies of Cybermen.    So in order to escape the Doctor and

    entourage will need to fight their way back together.  Has the Master has been

    waiting to be rescued?  He seems obviously stuck where he is to me.   That’s another

    weird thing bugging me.

    @missrori

    I also had a small issue with the way the Doctor allowed Bill to be taken  away.  It seemed

    odd even though they did say it was to repair her.  I thought he should of immediately have

    sent her back into the Tardis when the blue man started flipping out over the “are you human” thing!

     

    #59641
    MissRori @missrori

    @lisa Yeah, he might have been a little faster.  But that guy was trigger-happy; he wouldn’t listen to reason and rushing might have been even worse.  And Bill probably shouldn’t have spoken up to begin with…

    It will be interesting to see how Bill and Missy turn out next week.  At this point Nardole’s fate’s a bit of a wild card innit?  And I just feel there are so many loose ends to tie up, especially for Bill.

    #59642
    Nick @nick

    @missrori

    The Doctor would have to remove the cyber-control system and the emotion limitation technology for Bill to become Cyber-Bill. The patients didnt seem to find that very acceptable. However, it would be ok if the Cyber-conversion was removed totally and a replacement heart/lung technology (or cloning) was used to repair her physically. I rather think this isnt a solution that Moff has in mind though.

    I prefer to look on the (Antarctica – South Pole Tracking Base ?) scene where he’s trying to deny the regeneration from starting just yet as a sign of unfinished business (saving Bill and redeeming himself ?) as the beginning to the Christmas special.

     

    #59643
    Whisht @whisht

    Well, just to throw in my tuppence…

    Loved it!

    Overall I loved it (Rachel Talalay and Moffat seem to be a great team), but I also loved details like the tear-shape on rim of the eye hole that echoes the later designs and the Master’s ripping his mask off like an old villain (that would actually not happen like that with the actual makeup!!) 🙂

    I did have bits that I didn’t like, such as the skit when they boarded the spacecraft: “Doctor Who” and “companion? Assistant?” “Exposition and Comic Relief” – it was just too many knowing winks for my liking (and it is just a taste thing) but I’d hate it if the show didn’t ‘push’ and provoke.
    I was also squirming a bit with Mr Razer’s(sp?) accent – East European? Jewish? But am happy enough that it was resolved as a Master-hammy-disguise! 😉

    Something no one’s mentioned yet (forgive me if you did and I missed it!) was that the cornfields seen through one window of the massive craft reminded me of the fields in Smile. What with the blue guy and if @pedant spotted Heather then… nah I don’t think all the series has taken place on board, but if I was to eat too much cheese and dream up something bonkers then I would try that route!

    Anyway, looking forward to next Sunday (can’t see it on Saturday unfortunately) as want to see just how this all resolves!
    And will probably re-watch this episode before watching the finale as a double-header (as I say, I really enjoyed this episode!)

    #59644
    Nick @nick

    @lisa

    Yes, the Master’s presence isnt fully explaned yet or is it ? The screen explanation that he knows Missy will be there at some point (from his past memories ?) and that he’s concerned that the Doctor’s redemption plan is beginning to succeed and he needs to stop it. In that case, presumably his Tardis is somewhere on the ship as well.

    #59645
    MissRori @missrori

    @nick Could be.  But how much does the Doctor have to do to redeem himself?  He hasn’t been evil, like Missy.  Just making mistakes, having too much hope — trying to do noble things that perhaps were never meant to be, out of love and loneliness.  And when he tried to redeem himself by correcting Clara’s death, everybody was a jerk to him…

    #59647
    MissRori @missrori

    @whisht  Now that is a bonkers theory and I like it!  😀

    I do wonder about that woman looking like Heather — easy to miss if one wasn’t looking…but if any loose end needed tying up, it’s that…

    #59649
    RorySmith @rorysmith

    Considering that Bill was the Master’s companion longer than the Doctor’s; I think Missy will have been influenced by her and remember her. Remembering for a long time has been Moffat’s running arc. I now think we will see Clara and Danny’s story play out as well as Bill and Heather’s in the Christmas episode. I also think this may end the Master forever. I’m ok with that.

    #59652
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    #59655
    Whisht @whisht

    @nick – oh, I might need to re-watch as I thought that the Master’s presence on the craft kinda makes sense of the situation *

    ie
    – He (and I’m saying that deliberately ie SimmMaster) boards the Mondas colony ship (before Mondassian Cybermen were ever a thing);
    – Takes control/ guides it nearly into the black hole;
    – Convinces as many of the crew as possible to get to the engines;
    – Convinces them they can’t go back ‘up’;
    – Manipulates the emerging society over hundreds(?) of years;
    – Manipulates a surgeon to ‘evolve’ Mondassians into something that can survive the extreme conditions;
    – Finally gets the first ‘Modassian Cyberman’ with Bill after many trials/adaptations (the ‘proto-Cybermen patients’);

    Now why he was doing all that, why he wanted to create (Mondassian) Cybermen I have no idea! He’s evil?!? It kinda makes sense if he doesn’t have a Tardis to use time dilation to spend 100s of years to create cybermen and then ‘return’ to whatever triggered that need (and not be caught out by being 100s years behind technologically).

    But I think he’ll find it hilarious (if it wasn’t an intentional part of an overly-convoluted plan!) that he’s managed to convert the Doctor’s friend and force the Doctor into horrible decisions about saving her.

     

    * But maybe I’ve massively over/under thought this!!

    😉

    #59657
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Well, finally saw it, and…I actually am finding it a bit difficult to comment on, as it was, in essence, all exposition in preparation for next week.

    I think the thing I liked about it the most was the way it referenced, and gave expression to, the Andrew Marvell poem “To His Coy Mistress”. Because, when you think about it, that is what it was all about; as is made explicit when The Doctor and Bill sit on the university roof top and he tells Bill about his “crush” on Missy/The Master from the very first day at the Academy.

    #59658
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Had we but world enough, and time,
    This coyness, Lady, were no crime
    We would sit down and think which way
    To walk and pass our long love’s day.
    Thou by the Indian Ganges’ side
    Shouldst rubies find: I by the tide
    Of Humber would complain. I would
    Love you ten years before the Flood,
    And you should, if you please, refuse
    Till the conversion of the Jews.
    My vegetable love should grow
    Vaster than empires, and more slow;
    A hundred years should go to praise
    Thine eyes and on thy forehead gaze;
    Two hundred to adore each breast,
    But thirty thousand to the rest;
    An age at least to every part,
    And the last age should show your heart.
    For, Lady, you deserve this state,
    Nor would I love at lower rate.

    But at my back I always hear
    Time’s wingèd chariot hurrying near;
    And yonder all before us lie
    Deserts of vast eternity.
    Thy beauty shall no more be found,
    Nor, in thy marble vault, shall sound
    My echoing song; then worms shall try
    That long preserved virginity,
    And your quaint honour turn to dust,
    And into ashes all my lust:
    The grave’s a fine and private place,
    But none, I think, do there embrace.

    Now therefore, while the youthful hue
    Sits on thy skin like morning dew,
    And while thy willing soul transpires
    At every pore with instant fires,
    Now let us sport us while we may,
    And now, like amorous birds of prey,
    Rather at once our time devour
    Than languish in his slow-chapped power.
    Let us roll all our strength and all
    Our sweetness up into one ball,
    And tear our pleasures with rough strife
    Through the iron gates of life:
    Thus, though we cannot make our sun
    Stand still, yet we will make him run.

    #59659
    Nick @nick

    @whisht

    🙂 I can and will be perfectly willing to agree with you as soon as the next episode.

    Right now, so far as I could tell from the story, all we know is that the Master was on the ship (how/why ?), watched a genesis of the Cybermen and was instrumental in when Bill became a Cyberman (ie as soon as the process was refined and worked). The rest remain open questions subject to speculation.

    I certainly share your view on the Master. The Master will have found the cyber-conversion of a companion of the Doctor particularly enjoyable. His betrayal of Bill’s hope and their friendship would have been the icing on the cake.

    I don’t think Bill can be the first Cyberman (the Surgeon knew the emotion limiting and control technology worked already), but that isn’t a particularly big issue. As soon as the emotional control tech is developed all of the remaining patients can be converted immediately. She is certainly one of the first group of Cybermen developed on the ship.

    #59660
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @nick 🙂

    #59665
    MissRori @missrori

    Looking at the “Maximum Risk” making-of clip…I now feel slightly proud that I kinda figured out the Doctor’s mindset about the risk he was taking with Missy in advance.  I’d suspected that his journey over the season, from the moment he decided to make Bill a companion, was leading him to realize that he wasn’t going to get anywhere just stewing and guarding the Vault on Earth — that he couldn’t be his best self.  He had to be getting out, passing through, helping out, and learning…and sadly, that does involve taking risks and making mistakes and making amends and suffering consequences.  And from there he realized he had to really face his own monster at some point, get her out into the open too…if he’d just guarded that Vault things would have been safe, but there would never have been much hope for change.  What a complex, tragic tale, but one that shows both the Doctor’s weaknesses and strengths.  Something we could learn from…

    #59666
    KentAllard87 @rutledgemann74

    New here, but not new to Doctor Who. So you’ll have a base for where my episode comments come from, I prefer the pre-1989 series. I liked the Capaldi series ok, but it seems that every episode I liked was not written by Mr. Moffat (if Wikipedia is correct) – the dark house mystery one, etc.

    I found Bill Potts to be fairly likable and I was disappointed that the series looks to end up in a depressing way. And the Master seems to turn bad again. What a surprise!

    I’ve kept up with the Big Finish series, and in my opinion, the stories have more depth to them, and generally aren’t as dark. Don’t get me wrong, I like the TV series – I just prefer the audio ones more. Audio ones are well done, stories are longer, like the originals, and it’s theater of the mind. (and also, the Big Finish series had the Cybermen start in a different way, around 2004).

    And favorite doctors; Jon Pertwee, Patrick Troughton, Tom Baker, Sylvester McCoy. I didn’t care for the TV Colin Baker, but his audio Doctor is my favorite.

    Eventually, the Doctor Who cast tends to graduate to Big Finish after leaving the series. I think we’ll be hearing more from Bill Potts and the current cast.

    #59671
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    A few more thoughts on Andrew Marvell and his relevance to understanding the episode.

    A few lines from the poem “To His Coy Mistress”, containing the lines of the episode title “World Enough and Time”, are spoken by David Niven as the doomed WWII pilot as his plane is engulfed in flames in one of the greatest British movies ever made, “A Matter of Life and Death”:

    ‘“But at my back I always hear / Time’s winged chariot hurrying near. / And yonder all before us lie / Deserts of vast eternity.” Andy Marvell – What a marvel!’

    Now, as anyone who has seen the movie knows, in the movie David Niven’s character seemingly escapes certain death, but…up in heaven where they recognise that he should have died, there is a debate as to whether he should be allowed to live or not.

    There is a striking similarity between the the way the movie cuts between heaven and earth and…the Nethersphere (aka the Promised Land, aka Heaven), first seen in “Deep Breath”, and the focus of “Dark Water” and “Death in Heaven”. And remember, our first introduction to Missy (although we didn’t know her by that name then) was in the Nethersphere in “Death in Heaven” where we are first introduced to the Capaldi Doctor, and when she reveals her true identity in the final two-parter of S8 it is leading an army of Cybermen,

    OK, now cut to “World Enough and Time”. It strikes me that the dark, nightmarish world at the end of the spaceship where they are converting humanity into the first iteration of the Cybermen is like a dark, inverted version of the Nethersphere. I think it is clear that the long arc that Moffat has given us for the Capaldi years is really Missy/Master-centred. It starts in Capadli’s first series, with a version of Heaven, controlled by Missy and utilising her army of Cybermen, and it is concluding with a version of Hell, where the Master is creating his army of Cybermen.

    Now, back to the link with “A Matter of Life and Death”. The final image we are given in “World Enough and Time” is of Bill’s teardrop. In “A Matter of Life and Death” the heavenly court decides to allow the David Niven character to live, and the deciding factor is the teardrop that drops onto a rose from the girl who loves him.

     

     

    #59674
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    I just had a thought before going to bed, and it may be irrelevant as I don’t know what happens next week, but there may be some elements of the film ‘Snowpiercer’ going on here. It’s based on a comic and is set on an incredibly long train (like our 400 mile long spaceship).

    The train contains all that is left of humanity after nuclear war. The poor people all live at the back in dirt, the rich live at the front in luxury, and there are various stages of social strata in between. It’s probably not surprising that there is a rebellion by the poor. But it’s much more interesting and complex than that.

    Even if I’m wrong, you should check it out as it’s really good, and it’s bonkers in a good way! Here’s the trailer.

    #59675
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    If Marc Platt hadn’t already given the show Ghostlight — which along with Curse of Fenric, I think, provided much of the template for the show’s future post-cancellation — then he would definitely earn his place in Who lore with Spare Parts which has the distinction of being the only audio story that has been liberally, um, borrowed for the AG series — twice.

    The RTD-era Rise of the Cybermen/Age of Steel two parter was an odd mish mash of Spare Parts, The Invasion and Philip Pullman which in the end didn’t really work for me. I think this was partially because the conception of the Cybermen was too badly off, partly it was because of Roger Lloyd-Pack chewing the scenery too much but it was the fact that they were just too coy about the horror of the Cybermen, and in particular, the conversion process — all that whirling blades stuff was a rather camp way of shying away from the body horror of what was actually happening here.

    But this time, I think, they got it totally right. One of the most effective things about Spare Parts was the way they utilised the Blitz-like setting, the attitude of wartime sacrifice a convincing answer to the question of ‘why would people allow this to happen to themselves’. And the design of the Mondasian Cybermen does have something of a 1940s aesthetic to it. So it was totally the right thing to tap into that once again — the enclosed, roofed city is straight out of Spare Parts, as was the hospital matron, and the hospital itself was creepy as hell too — although it obviously owed a huge debt to computer games like Silent Hill and BioShock too. I was half-expecting to see some Little Sisters show up at some point.

    It’ll come as no surprise to most that I find the Mondasian Cybermen the most effective version of the Cybermen, mostly because the human aspect is emphasised, as is the medical and scientific over the military. They are, I think, the most horrific concept that Doctor Who has ever come up with but it is lost when they’re reduced to tin soldiers or robots. It looks rather like we’re returning to that more prosaic level next week again but I’ll always be grateful that we got to see the Cybermen reach their full horrific potential for once and I’ll hope that they make a reappearance in the Chibnall era.

    But on to other things. Wasn’t Pearl Mackie just great? She’s been great all year and again she really knocked it out the park. Her scenes with Razor also fulfilled another thing that I’ve always wanted to see — a companion who was duped or led astray by the Master. It was also nice to see John Simm get to play a bit of humour. He only occasionally gets the chance to do so. But as great as Bill is, I think she should die and stay dead. This was done too well and with too much emotional punch for it do be undone with a bit of time-wimey sleight-of-hand. But I suspect it will be. Firstly, because Pearl Mackie has shown herself to be too much of an asset to the show and secondly because Steven Moffat seems to me to be far too much of a sentimental old softie to go out on such a dark note.

    And yet, and yet. SM also has the problem of the Master to deal with. I’ve said before it’s a perennial problem in bringing back the Master — once you’ve brought him/her back, you have to find something to do with them. Even the original show had this problem. After a bit of disguise tomfoolery, inventive dispatching of bit characters and general moustache twirling, he would tend to just change sides and then live to fight another day. RTD got round out by turning him into a Joker-esque maniac and Moffat went down the route of exploring the core friendship between the two characters.

    But he now has the problem of resetting that relationship. If Missy becomes good, then that’s a significant chunk of Who lore taken out of the equation for good — and I’m not sure Chibnall would thank Moffat for that. The alternatives are a regeneration that returns Missy to evil but that would mean the problem of hope, of the possibility of redemption, would remain, and would forever colour the Doctor’s dealings with her. The other option is that she does something so terrible that he can never forgive her and returns them to implacable enemies. The permanent death of Bill would do that, I think.

    On that regeneration scene — a great opening to an episode. But I feel that the fake regeneration in The Lie of the Land kind of stole its thunder a bit and made me at least a little bit suspicious of it. If it had come out of nowhere then it would have been a gob-smacking start to the story. I quite like the theory that it’s an in-disguise Missy regenerating rather than the Doctor, though I’m not sure that’s how it’ll work in practice. But if I have one criticism of SM, it’s that he’s used regeneration tricks just a bit too much over his tenure. I think it’s something that has to be used very sparingly. And it hasn’t always been of late.

    So, next week has a lot of ground to cover and I must admit it looks a bit too bang-crash explosion explosion for my liking. I would have preferred something tonally similar to this week’s but I guess it’s a series finale and it has to pull out the crowd-pleasing stops a little — although I think it’s an approach that proved detrimental to, say, Death in Heaven.

    No real predictions but very much looking forward, while simultaneously dreading the passing of Capaldi (who was great once again). I was sure that we were going to get a regeneration before Christmas but I doubt we’ll get one next week. I’m still hoping for a hidden in plain sight, totally gobsmacking surprise regeneration. Maybe it’s not too late for it still be Pearl — the Doctor’s tribute to the girl he couldn’t save? A future reproach, not unlike having to wear Caecilius’s face this time around?

    I imagine that we’ll be ending on something of a cliffhanger for Christmas — perhaps the Doc’s regeneration at the South Pole being interrupted by —- REDACTED——–

     

    #59676
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @blenkinsopthebrave–

    Now, back to the link with “A Matter of Life and Death”. The final image we are given in “World Enough and Time” is of Bill’s teardrop. In “A Matter of Life and Death” the heavenly court decides to allow the David Niven character to live, and the deciding factor is the teardrop that drops onto a rose from the girl who loves him.

    Oh, that’s a good call and I think that’s almost exactly the kind of thing that SM might do. And who is the other person who we’ve seen shedding a tear this year. Perhaps Missy, moved to an act of redemption (without hope, without witness, without reward) somehow gives her life, or her regeneration to de-Cyberise Bill.

    #59677
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @jimthefish

    I’m still hoping for a hidden in plain sight, totally gobsmacking surprise regeneration. Maybe it’s not too late for it still to be Pearl — the Doctor’s tribute to the girl he couldn’t save? A future reproach, not unlike having to wear Caecilius’s face this time around?

    That’s been my thinking exactly. “I couldn’t save you, but I can be you”. I think that would be heartbreakingly brilliant, in a very weird way.

    #59678
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Going off track slightly here but if anyone else was a Babylon 5 fan, was any one else struck by the similarity in mannerisms initially between the Master/Razor and Zathrus

    #59679
    whofangirl73 @whofangirl-73

    OMG that was the best episode ever (or for a while). This season has been the best in ages and thinking how can they top that next week. Loved the slow unveil of the cyberman. Love how they looked like the originals. Loved how they came to be. Loved slow unveil of the master (love Gomez but also LOVE Sims master. Poor Bill. I do think its the end. Loved this episode on so many levels and can-t wait for next week. Don’t want Capaldidr to go. Why is it the last season, for all Drs, always the best??

    #59680

    @devilishrobby

    Zathrus

    Yep – had a twitter exchange about it pretty well right after the episode. I also thought hints of the mad doctor in the orphanage in Impossible Astronaut.

    @jimthefish

    and I’m not sure Chibnall would thank Moffat for that.

    Don’t disagree with anything you say, but I think it absolutely inconceivable that Moffat will not leave the show exactly where Chibnall asks (and he alluded to that on the Q&A).

    #59681
    Arbutus @arbutus

    Holy… crap.

    I was enjoying this to pieces, and with the line “It took me awhile to work out who you were…”, well, I lost it. I felt like I was the one with the exploding cyber-heart. So beautifully put together, balance of suspense and humour, the visuals, the soundtrack. The reveal was so fabulously done that even knowing what was coming, it was still out of this world. Oh, Peter, I will miss you.

    “Don’t change the channel.” “A week raising his eyebrow. Why would I change?”  🙂

    I can’t even imagine what is coming. Tragedy and hope, I suppose.

    #59682
    Arbutus @arbutus

    Oh, and Michelle Gomez just kicked a** in this. I’ve never loved her more!

    #59683
    Nick @nick

    @jimthefish

    And yet, and yet. SM also has the problem of the Master to deal with. I’ve said before it’s a perennial problem in bringing back the Master — once you’ve brought him/her back, you have to find something to do with them. Even the original show had this problem. After a bit of disguise tomfoolery, inventive dispatching of bit characters and general moustache twirling, he would tend to just change sides and then live to fight another day. RTD got round out by turning him into a Joker-esque maniac and Moffat went down the route of exploring the core friendship between the two characters.

    How big of a problem need this be ? At its simplest isn’t the Master the anti-Doctor. What AG Who has done is to make the Doctor a more complex and nuanced character than was possible in BG Who. On the same basis, it ought be possible to make the Master a more complex, less black and white character in the same, but opposite way, as the Doctor rather than just the archetype for evil.

    That love/hate relationship between the Doctor and Master, better expressed as bitter rivalry surely, was there from the start. In retrospect, the Master’s anti-Doctor plans were always more of an intellectual test than actual attempt to kill the Doctor. If you want to assassinate someone, then the simplest plan will always be the most effective.

    As I see it, what Moff has given us is only part of the Master’s origin. Best friends can grow apart in time, but not all become bitter rivals as a result. It seems to me, that there is more that the origin of the Master/Doctor relationship than we have seen yet. That leaves future show runners and writers plenty of space to develop the relationship further if they want to.

    In any case, I am looking forward to see how John Simm plays the Master next week. We know he was never that happy with RTD’s conception of the Saxon Master.

    #59684
    Whisht @whisht

    @jimthefish – I agree with everything you’ve just said but especially that’s how I’ve been wondering what will happen with Missy.

    She saves the day but no one will know.
    Except us – we learn that there is redemption.
    That the Doctor doesn’t witness it means that he’ll ‘remember’ that the Master is evil but it won’t matter, because he’ll think “maybe next time” as he always has hope.

    Mind you, I’ve no idea how any of that will actually unfold in the plot!

    @nick – 🙂

    #59686
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @jimthefish

    I’m still hoping for a hidden in plain sight, totally gobsmacking surprise regeneration. Maybe it’s not too late for it still be Pearl — the Doctor’s tribute to the girl he couldn’t save? A future reproach, not unlike having to wear Caecilius’s face this time around?

    I am hoping for something very similar, but with Michelle Gomez. For an explanation of why that might actually happen, head on over to the ‘Spoilers’ page.

     

    #59691
    CountScarlioni @countscarlioni

    One thought in reflecting on this episode: SM puts himself head and shoulders above all other AG writers for me in part because of his delight in, and willingness to push up to the limit and beyond, various notions and perceptions of time. Here we had the different time rates at the top and bottom of the ship. His best monster does not obliterate people, but sends them back in time. Other examples: the Doctor working away for over 4 billion years to smash through a diamond wall; introducing us to River Song at the end of her timeline; creating portals in time to C18 France aboard a 51st century spaceship, and a companion who exists between heartbeats (or something like that), and on and on.

    But my, SM does put companions through the wringer.  I agree with @jimthefish above (and what a great post that is) that, on past form though, he’s too much of an old softie to leave Bill in her current predicament.

    @blenkinsopthebrave A few more thoughts on Andrew Marvell and his relevance to understanding the episode.

    A fascinating post that makes a lot of sense! I now want to see the movie.

    Only two more SM episodes to go, and only two more episodes of the superb PC too, so nearly time to shed a tear or two into my beer.

    A brighter thought: if someone takes a Master of Fine Arts in Film and Creative Writing at the University of British Columbia, they’d be supervised, according to the Department’s website, by Rachel Talalay. There’s an education….

    #59692
    Anonymous @

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    Good call on the Matter of Life and Death!

    But I didn’t, personally, view this as exposition for the last episode?

    @whisht   I loved it too: but I also loved the comic relief and exposition introduction: I think the comment by Nardole, “we’re not functions!”  was a very interesting response and not just an ‘in house’ nod -but that’s just me! 🙂 I guess some of that ‘frivolous’ stuff helped me deal with the darker tone of the whole episode and I also believe that Missy, in speaking like this is carrying those character beats consistently?

    Loved your music on t’thread with @pedant

    @missrori

    Now, where are we with your therapy? 🙂  I think Who absolutely must terrify and take away that which we love. I remember at age seven having lost my mum so seeing characters die in Who helped me cope with my own loss. Good television does that. It must be painful -a balance of hope and despair, misery and joy.

    @arbutus -I felt the same. Gomez was stunning. The entire Ilion household thinks this episode is the best of the season thus far: the motivation, the deliberation of certain directorial plans: the beautiful shot from above the Tardis before the Doctor begins the semi-reveal of the regeneration? The perfection of the score worked with Tallalay’s choice of close ups?

    And @whisht, absolutely: many hints back to Smile and to other episodes such as The Pilot. At last we see Bill cutting up potatoes: a connection to a) pigs and bacon sandwiches; b) pollution causing the people to have to undergo  forced evolution and c) Bill’s own operation and ‘being cut up’ whilst waiting for the Doctor.

    The DP did a marvellous job as well.

    @jimthefish I agree re: Mondas cyberman. The nature of their pain and “kill me” was horrifying and I recall back in  Season 9 the Daleks were entreating people with emotional concepts which shouldn’t have been part of their mechanical software. So when Clara was in the Dalek and crying out, all the Doctor heard was: ‘exterminate’. On the whole, much of the last 3 seasons have referred to ‘what is inside the monster?’

    Mostly they’re hungry, sometimes they just want ‘more.’ Other times they’re scared as hell.

    @nick I don’t find issues of the Doctor “dithering” a particular problem. He was reminding himself of Bill’s dire warning and recalling that he wanted to teach her everything and now she’s dead. And so if there’s any hope of fixing her he’s going to allow for that chance…. since Season 8 it was “all you need is one chance in a 1000.”

    I’ve always thought that the Master and the Doctor needed to have a clearly explained relationship -bringing in Missy was a terrific idea and coupling her (as it were) with the Master is…..a masterstroke. We begin to understand the Doctor’s need for this friendship  -and animosity or fury as well.

    @missrori Did you mention that the Doctor hasn’t had much ‘luck’ etc? I think we’re forgetting the 24 years on Darillium? How fortunate for River. Not many people in real life get such a chance -one in 1000. The Doctor is genuinely fortunate. Theirs was an authentic relationship born of time. And yet time kills -in this episode definitely.

    @whisht I also thought ‘oh no’ about the leery master -actually Mr Ilion pointed out that it reminded him of  a Dickens character? Thinking about that -it could work? 🙂 Otherwise I’m with you on the cringe factor there.
    Kindest,

    Puro

     

    #59696
    Anonymous @

    @nick

    Having written that, unlike the Raven ,where the episode never felt epic enough for me ti believe that Clara was gone forever. This episode (and the next one) are epic, so the hope may prove to be futile.

    So you’re of the opinion that if Clara’s death was sudden -at the end -and quick then it lacks ….something?

    I’m reminded of Buffy…

    “was it sudden?”

    “no, yes, it’s always sudden”

    Loss is loss no matter how it’s effected.

    Are you hoping that Bill will be ‘dead’ or upgraded?

    I suppose it could happen. It seems to point in the other direction as you say. But I’m reminded of the remarkable Lindsay Crouse back in 2001 in tWW when she says to Toby:

    “it’s in the campaign, it’s never in the result or the end.”

    I think regardless of whether Bill and the Doctor are reunited the relationship he had with her had its impact but unfortunately Bill made a decision: “don’t wipe my memory, please don’t” and for those who said he had no “right to make such a decision” the argument’s more complicated in hindsight.

    Interesting that we have a ‘hindsight’ space ship!

    #59697
    Missy @missy

    I was going to watch this episode again tonight, but I don’t think that I can.  My God it was heart breaking!   Usually, I watch an episode before I go to bed, it puts me in a happy mood for sleep. this one had the opposite affect.

    The clincher was when Bill held out her hand and told the Doctor, “I waited for you.” The close up of her eye, tear trickling finished me off. SM said it wouldn’t end well, and he was right.

    Then of course, the first scene with him regenerating, coat cuff torn and shouting “NO!”

    Perhaps some will think me sentimental, and maybe I am, but this was a killer episode of betrayal, with, I fancy, more to come.

    It will be interesting to read your posts, but not today.

    Missy

     

     

     

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