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30 August 2014 at 14:33 #30650
I love the idea that Clara is a paradox/Claricle, but it’s too Rose/Bad Wolf.
I’m going back to the drawing board.
Patterns:
Nine had to save Rose from what she had become to save everyone from the Daleks, he learns love can save the world, not just violence.
Ten tried to save Martha from what she became to save everyone from the Master. He learned even with time travel, he can’t save everyone.
Ten had to save Donna from what she had become to save everyone from the Daleks, he learns power that burns too bright, burns out (Waters of Mars too).
Eleven had to save Clara from what she had become to save everyone from the GI, he learns to believe in the impossible.
Maybe he has to save Missy this time, like he tried to save the Daleks (Rose Nine), the Master (Martha Ten) Darvos (Donna Ten) , and Gallifrey (Clara Eleven)
30 August 2014 at 04:30 #30635My last sounds too much like River. I’ll take some time to think this through.
I didn’t think Missy was connected to Clara till reading theories here.
@serahni After speaking with my cousin tonight, it’s almost a foregone conclusion that I will be attending with a 9-year-old K9 and a 5-year-old Dalek.
Sounds awesome 🙂
30 August 2014 at 04:27 #30632@purofilion Are you saying as Clara Prime she was already an Old God?
Maybe she forgot (I don’t know where I am), or rather, the Old Gods sent her to destroy the Doctor and she is undercover, Missy is when she remembers and accepts her mission. I’m pretty much making this up as we go lol.
30 August 2014 at 04:18 #30627Kill Tasha, wipe the memory they killed her, “kill her”, wipe that memory etc is the way I was thinking.
30 August 2014 at 04:10 #30621Clara’s Mom was 45 when she died Arbutus
Now I’ve gone completely gone mad lol. I’m putting this together from everyone.
Missy is connected to the Claricles.
The Great Old Ones can
- time travel or following someone in time (Claricles follows the Doctor, she knows what the Tardis looks like inside out, it’s smaller on the outside)
- existing in multiple time zones (Clara to send the Claricles to save him)
- possession (Clara takes over her echoes to save the Doctor, Run you Clever Boy)
- stopping a TARDIS in flight (she was able to fly with the TARDIS)
Clara doesn’t know she is one of the Great Old Ones!! Missy does, she’s like all the Claricles put together.
30 August 2014 at 03:41 #30602(freak shows) + (generations) =
Maybe as a God of Ragnorak, Missy has been collecting the Clara’s. She makes sure they die when they meet the Doctor, sending messages for Claricles. Reanimate them as she did with Humpty.
This is prolly getting way crazy lol. But it would be a place for the Claricles to go. But why? She’s been planning it all along, maybe she was working with the GI…
Their minds have sought to return to their bodies, if they could use the Claricles as shells….
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Old_One
The Great Old Ones “The Celestial Toymaker and Gods of Ragnarok maintained humanoid appearances, while the Animus, Great Intelligence, and Fenric were noted for having multi-limbed bodies.”
- time travel or following someone in time
- existing in multiple time zones
- possession
- creating thunder and lightning
- re-animating dead bodies
- generating fog/fungus and webbing
- stopping a TARDIS in flight
- extending an individual’s life
30 August 2014 at 02:17 #30590@midnyt meh. never apply logic to who. at least not with Moffat at the helm.
“That he’s mad, ’tis true,
’tis true tis pity,
And pity ’tis, ‘its true.”
~Shakespeare
I wonder why Eleven is so sure that Twelve will need Clara. Eleven went out and found himself new friends even though Ten was so heartbroken you think he may never have traveled with anyone again.
“The man who regrets and the man who forgets.” What kind of man is Twelve? The man who searches maybe, the man who is lost Vastra said. Looking for Gallifrey, looking for redemption (I’ve made many mistakes, time I did something about that) , to find the answer of why he choose this face (could be a season long journey).
The Doctor: “Well it might be Clara, might not. There’s a lot to it.”
Door boring, not me lol.
29 August 2014 at 18:02 #30576You know, one of the reasons it could be vunerable, that is the same car, the one that killed Pete, that almost killed Clara’s dad.
@pedant Well done remembering the P.O.V. shots from the previous series. That definitely implies that someone was watching Clara & the Doctor and steering them together.
Hmmm…that is interesting. The Doctor never notices Clara, she saves him without him even knowing. She knows what to do, she dies for a guy she’s never met. It’s Clara’s will that the echos dedicate their lives to and for the Doctor, and someone making sure she is in the right place at the right time.
This could bring up all kinds of neat free will stuff. What if someone walked up and said you are an echo, go die for a guy because I said so. Or gave you a phone number that led to your death. Are they a murderer?
The Doctor said he has to make up for his mistakes. What if part of that is all the Clara echoes. All the people who died for him over 2,000 years. Are they people? The Almost People, the Rebel Flesh.
29 August 2014 at 17:04 #30574http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/12/wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey-top-5-doctor-who-paradoxes
Big Bang, Father’s Day, Curse of Fenric, Blink, City of Death
The Doctor Who and Philosphy book tries to explain some of these with modern science, closed causal chain, reverse causation.
I think there’s a trend where Moffat makes ‘his’ Doctor and companions ‘better’ than their forebears. So ‘his’ Doctor lives for the total of all the other Doctors’ ‘lives’ and is depicted as being more powerful and better than ever.
I so completely agree with you. I love Moffat in indiviual episodes (and Sherlock) but as story arcs go, I like RTDavies. Rewatching some classicWho, I see other series changing stuff (Ace being sent to Gallifrey to become a Timelord), so I do give an inch, but he takes a mile.
Think the Clara echoes have to die for the Doctor everytime (as they have so far)? It would be paradoxes resovling themselves. They all do have many things in common, being a teacher instead of having kids. They all remember Run you Clever Boy. Maybe the only time an echo has to help is when it’s life and death.
I just realized I have a favorite Clara (Dalek Owsin). Makes me wonder if I like the current Clara as much as I thought I did… She’s not Oswin. But then the Doctor is not just the Second, he’s all of them. I love the mirror there.
29 August 2014 at 13:03 #30570They all had to be in exactly that place exactly at that time…Just like Clara was. She blew into this world on a life. She makes it sound as if her life is just as planned as one of the echoes. The woman in the shop told her where she needed to be. Maybe all the echoes have their own “woman in a shop.”
29 August 2014 at 12:57 #30569the Doctor said it was dangerous to be in his own timeline. Then, at other times, and definitely with Tennant it’s all about ‘I can’t go back on my own timeline’.
The one that bothered me was Journey to the Center of the Tardis. He went back on his own time stream to save himself. If he could do that, there would never be any tension in the show, why doesn’t he do it all the time.
Pretty interesting point, it’s like they’ve been programmed, and they die at the same age as Clara was. What if all of them in the past die at the same age Clara is, they are born exactly that many years before an event?
28 August 2014 at 17:56 #30518@Rob Like crossing the river Styx? The Sonic bypasses the need for the ferryman. Norse mythology is like that too, if you are a great warrior you get to go to Valhalla (Sonic), everyone else just goes to Hel. At the end of time, the warriors of Valhalla fight to save the world. Hmmm. I like this. So Missy has her own Sonic device?
Yes, this is why I’m so set on Ragnarok, I love Troughton, McCoy and Norse Mythology lol. I have to stop otherwise I’ll be sad if I’m wrong.
Speaking of, working 6 days a week without 3G sounds like Hel. I suppose you are safe from the WiFi though lol.
28 August 2014 at 16:41 #30513@arbutus The Gods of Ragnarok can reanimate dead bodies.
Do you guys think we’ll be spending more time in Victorian England, the Doctor will bring the Paternoster Gang on important adventures, or we’ll just see less of them?
28 August 2014 at 16:14 #30508Still there I’d imagine.
I’m loving this Clara echoes idea. They may be echoes but I’m sure they think of themselves are real people; born, live, and die. It’s idenity, just like the Doctor has to deal with when he meets his past sevels. Same face different memories vs Different face same memories.
Moffat likes to revist popular concepts, like the Weeping Angels. The Girl Who Waited was very well recieved. What happens if Clara and a Clara echo face a life or death for one or the other.
28 August 2014 at 16:00 #30503He may have been saying the truth if Handles was yet another incarnation of the splintered Clara that shows up throughout his whole timeline. Anyone else have that thought?
That would be awesome. I hope we see more Clara echos. If Clara got to meet one of her echos, so many possibilites.
28 August 2014 at 14:24 #30488I completely agree with you that the show needs to follow its own rules. Smith going back on his own timeline really bugged me.
I’m with you, Lockness monster, Big Foot. I think it was just a red herring for the first episode. Writing for this world, not a plot point in Doctor Who.
I was wondering about the Roman thing too, the Doctor said the droid had parts from the Roman era too.
Couldn’t agree more we need a new big bad. I’m getting way too attached to my Gods of Ragnorak, Eternals/Guardians of Time theory. Never a good idea. I just love when they combine old and new Who. But without making it stale.
28 August 2014 at 14:07 #30486http://www.amazon.co.uk/Doctor-Who-Philosophy-Popular-Culture/dp/0812696883
First section is about idenity, is the Doctor the same man each regeneration, how do you define idenity. I love the example, if you are whipped as a boy, become a soldier than retire a general. Now the soldier remembers being whipped and the general remembers being a soldier but the general doesn’t remember beingg whipped, are they the same person?
Then you have time travel, favorite is reversed causation and closed causal chains.
Really fun, the morality of Doctor Who. Next it kind of an existentail look at the world. Chapter on horror and beauty. Last a section on culture.
I really like that. Clara went from the normal world to the Doctor’s world, than she went to a new Doctor’s world. A lot to get use to in a short peroid of time. She was one of the few companions who didn’t jump feet first into the Tardis. And she’s being treated like crap by everyone.
28 August 2014 at 03:24 #30441Harriet Jones Prime Minister – We know
Vastra and Jenny are married – We know
28 August 2014 at 03:11 #30439@wolfweed And I see your point about Vastra & Jenny. Oh… They’re married, so they’re ‘allowed’ to share oxygen…
They could’ve spent that beat watching Clara fiddle with the sonic, not know what to do and put it in her pocket. I don’t remember there being a chance for her to have given it back.
@wolfweed It started with a phone call. It ended with a phone call… @ArbutusThat is rather lovely.
I hadn’t thought if it that way, very true.
28 August 2014 at 01:45 #30430@pufferfish you can see his side-eye, whereas the dormant droids are facing forward, unseeing. So he never *quite* abandons her in the ‘larder’.
You’re right. And he is also the “droid” who dragged her away. I bet that was the Doctor who put the dream in her mind of the kids screaming, so she would start the ball rolling. He believed in her, that she would ask questions, he called her that when he was describing her at the beginning.
@wolfweed It’s fun to start kinda making fun about that kiss. They are way too over the top about the fact they are married. So what? I don’t know about anyone else but that doesn’t make any difference to me. But by calling attention to it all the time, they make it a big deal. Two people (or alien and human) being married is not a big deal. Discrimination to treat them different.
And when Jenny said it didn’t matter what she looked like she loved Vastra. So Clara is allowed to love the Doctor but not in a loving way? He flirted with her, so she’s suppose to love him as a friend? Seems confusing to me.
I watched the episodes, but it wasn’t till @fivefaces brought up the Toymaker I started thinking about the Old Ones. Another thought, Tennant spoke of the Old Ones calling the Void the Hollowing in Doomsday.
It also brings to mind a question, are the Old Ones linked to the Eternals and/or the Guardians of Time? They both existed during the Dark Times. And the Toymaker is part of that group now.
I’m starting to confuse myself lol.
27 August 2014 at 21:58 #30417@vashtanerada I hope the explain Pompeii too, I’d love if DoctorDonna was involved somehow.
That’s another reason I like Tennant. Sad is happy for deep people, and he was a very tragic Doctor. Same with Troughton, they both seemed to face regeneration in a similar way. Not to mention the companions wiped memories.
That’s a good point @Bluesqueakpip I’ve heard good things about McGann audio’s, I need to listen.
27 August 2014 at 21:24 #30415Wow @phaseshift , that is incredible. Thank you
I’m with you @vashtanerada I love Tennant as an actor, not just because he’s pretty.
I’m not as big a fan of Hurt, I wish they’d brought McGann back. I heard he wanted too. Adding another regeneration is just confusing (meta Ten, Valyard, Watcher, etc.)
I have high high hopes for Capaldi. I can see Hartnell and McCoy.
I’ll admit I’m one who never warmed to Smith. Which is odd considering I love Troughton.
And while I use names discussing different Doctors, I don’t see them all as THE Doctor. I’ve got a theory lol
It’s like Schrödinger’s cat, the Doctor can see what is and what could be. I think Timelords can see events at the quantum level without collapsing the event. Objectively.
But when they are part of the event it because subjective, the reason River had to break her arm in Angels in Manhattan.
So they can see themselves objectively as THE Doctor, but on a personal level, they all are their own person subjectively.
27 August 2014 at 18:44 #30409Cybermen are Robots too. Death in Heaven. I’m liking this. Thanks for the Toymaker thought @FiveFaces
This is why forums are so awesome. Ideas lead to ideas. Bean from Ender’s Shadow said it best “One mind can think only of its own questions; it rarely surprises itself.” Good reason for the Doctor to bring along companions.
Gotta love McCoy 🙂
27 August 2014 at 18:01 #30405Seeing the Toymaker again would be fun @FiveFaces
The Gods of Ragnarok would be cool too. Like the Toymaker, came before. Old Ones from the time, Dark Times, before the universe. The Doctor says he’s been fighting them.
The Land of Fiction with Clockwork Soldiers (Mind Robber Second Doctor). Master of the Land, needed by a Master Brain. Seventh Doctor faced them too, Greatest Show in the Galaxy. Robot clowns.
Gods connected to Heaven, they could reanimate dead bodies. More than anything they want to be entertained.
27 August 2014 at 12:50 #30392This is why I love finding a good forum, so many ideas 🙂
I like that @ScaryB “I’m not your boyfriend…I never said it was your mistake.” Same thing, Missy says she is the Doctor’s girlfriend and the mistake is on her part. The Doctor sees Missy the same way Clara sees the Doctor? Maybe an enemy that is smarter than the Doctor?
Neat @janetteB I now have to go research that time period. Reinette and Marie where both women(so is Missy…), take a look at important women, technology from that age. It is the Doctors favorite era.
@ deluxescarf just like when Eleven came back to Amy in Flesh and Stone. I like, the two situations seem very parallel, do you think Moffat would do the same thing twice? We do have don’t blink and don’t breath lol.
27 August 2014 at 02:57 #30370I hope so @Arbutus
But how the hell does it fit into a bonkers theory… (replaces tinfoil cap).
The SS Mdme de Pompadour (ie the ship) is (or thinks it is) 37 when it gets damaged.
It needs the real Mdme de Pompadour’s head at 37 but doesn’t get it.
Was its sister ship (the SS Marie Antoinette) also damaged at the same time and succeed in getting her brain??!?Thanks for the welcome, and the thought you gave me. Pompadour was trying to repair the ship, the Antoinette was repairing the droids.
The clockwork droids failed to retrieve Reinette’s brain at age 37 and shut down, mission failure. They had opened windows to look for it. If they had stolen her brain, where they going to fix the ship to fly to the promised land?
The human droids might have succeeded in acquiring Marie’s when she was guillotined at 37. But it looks like they came the long way around. And it stands to reason they did get it(if they needed it like they did Reinette’s), the clockwork droids shut down when they failed, the Antoinette droids are still alive and kicking.
If the Antoinette droids collected the brain they where sent after, what are they doing? Why did they have to become more human to get to heaven? And why does Missy want brains (zombie…)?
I agree the Doctor doesn’t believe in an afterlife, Ten in Satan Pit. “I’ve seen bad gods and demigods and would-be gods. And you know what, out of that whole pantheon, if I believe in one thing, just one, I believe in her.”
And Eleven in the Pandorica Opens. “The universe is big, it’s vast and complicated, and ridiculous. And sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles. And that’s the theory. Nine hundred years, never seen one yet, but this would do me.”
But it is hard to explain how Humpty went from impaled to being in one piece in a different place. I’m liking the RiverLibrary/Matrix vibe that’s been building here.
27 August 2014 at 00:34 #30358I counted at my theater too, two tardis dresses, one very good Eleventh Doctor, plenty of general tshirts, and 8 hats/scarfs Fourth. Plus me, the only one to dress like a companion, Clara (Bells of St John).
By the way, hi everyone. I’m a pretty new Who fan, about six months. Ten was my first Doctor, but I also love Seven and Two (yeah, I know, weird combo lol).
While I’ve seen at least one serial from everyone except Six, I know I’ve only scratched the surface 🙂 I love my Who and Philosophy book.
27 August 2014 at 00:11 #30357I agree with you @serahni I hope there is more to the impossible girl story. I’m still in the Rose is connected to Clara camp. Clara’s mom died on the same day Rose “disappeared.”
I loved the way Twelve said Clara didn’t see him, when it was the opposite that Eleven didn’t see Clara when they met, just the other two verisons he knew of her.
I liked the way we were introduced to Twelve, as if he was translating what a baby says. The uh, the “not me” one, the “asking questions” one. Names … not my area. Brings to mind mom, not mom, peasants, big milk thing.
@juniperfish – I hope you are right about the Valeyard coming somewhere, shouldn’t be ignored.
@jimthefish Seventh Doctor sounds good to me. In the Who movie, I think the Tardis had that same almost library feel.
@arbutus I was struck by the coldness when he left Clara too. Made me think of Eleven leaving Amy in Flesh and Stone. It was a future version that came back to comfort her.
@stevethewhistle agreed, totally want to know more about the chalk drawings. Seems like it should be easy to use the Tardis to take the tRex home?
The one thing that really really bugs me is Missy called the Doctor her boyfriend. We spent the whole episode establishing he isn’t that kind of Doctor anymore.
26 August 2014 at 22:13 #30343Another quick post while I should be working lol.
I’m pretty sure Ten gave the fob watch to Tim at the end of Family of Blood
I really agree with your examples of how the Doctor interacts with the lives of the people around him. I have the Who and Philosphy book and there are chapters on his different views of morality. He shows concern, not compassion.
Anyone else think the garden at the end looked like Apalapucia’s Two Streams Facility in The Girl Who Waited? The gate was the portal to all the different zones and Missy is the Gatekeeper.
26 August 2014 at 21:28 #30340Hi everyone,
First post, I only have a minute, but I just wanted to mention Marie Antoinette was 37 when she died by having her head removed. Interesting connection to Madame de Pompadour.
Susan said the French Revolution was the Doctor’s favorite time in Earth history.
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