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The prophecy is quite vague.  Silence will fall when a question is asked, a question that must never be answered.  Do the Silence want to stop the question being asked or stop the question being answered? If it’s the former, then they presumably want to stop silence falling.  If it’s the latter, then they’re not concerned with silence falling, more with what happens afterwards.  It may not matter, but I think it would guide us as to their motivation.

@osakahatter

Yes, the prophecy, like all good prophecies, is capable of many readings.

But, given what happened when the Doctor did go to Trenzalore, don’t we know enough to know what the prophecy meant?

Firstly, that the prophecy was spread by the Whispermen once the GI discovered where the Doctor’s tomb was. Maybe.

Secondly, that the question was “Doctor Who?”.

Thirdly, that if it was asked it would be answered.

Fourthly, that once correctly answered, the question would open the tomb of the Doctor.

Fifthly, that once the Tomb was open and, given that the TimeLords are sealed on Gallifrey with the Matrix, the Doctor’s “time tunnel” of energy and the past/future would be there as it could not be uploaded to the Matrix.

Sixthly, that the GI could enter the “time tunnel” and start to eradicate the Doctor throughout history, an act that would result in planets and stars disappearing or dying   – the falling of silence.

What the GI did not bank on, and the thing not incorporated in the GI’s plans, was the presence of Clara and he special skills as the Impossible Girl.

I think that is all logical – no?

This makes me think that it couldn’t be something like killing the TARDIS, because I can’t see Eleven ever agreeing that he had no choice in that.

Doctor’s Wife makes me think that the TARDIS would not want to live without her “thief”. So, I could see how the concept could be comprehended by the Eleventh.

And unless you know what was happening when the Hurt Doctor did whatever he did, its hard to know what Smith could agree with. No?

@shazzbot    Damp squib year indeed. I live in the hope that the period between November 23 and the Christmas special will be full of treats – but we will see.

And I have no idea about that J…

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Hmmm…..can’t edit the typos there……..sorry about that!

No idea what that J is about…

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Hi all

I have missed most of this party and have only limited internet access at the moment, so cannot read all the posts – which is very irritating! – but, for what they are worth, here are my thoughts about where the 50th may go and how John Hurt fits in.

Please do just tell me where I am wrong or where I have simply repeated someone else’s ideas without knowing it!

My starting place is here:
 
Simeon:                 It was a minor skirmish, by the Doctor’s blood-soaked standards. Not exactly the Time War, but enough to finish him. In the end, it was too much for the old man.

and here:

Doctor:                  When a TARDIS is dying, sometimes the dimension dams start breaking down. They used to call it a size leak. All the bigger on the inside starts leaking to the outside. It grows. When I say that’s the TARDIS, I don’t mean it looks like the TARDIS, I mean it actually is the TARDIS. My TARDIS from the future. What else would they bury me in?

and here:

Clara:                    Doctor? Explain? What is that?
Doctor:                  The tracks of my tears
Simeon:                 Less poetry, Doctor. Just tell them.
Doctor:                  Time travel is damage. Its like a tear in the fabric of reality. That is the scar tissue of my journey through the Universe. My path through time and space from Gallifrey to Trenzalore.

and here:

Doctor:                  My own personal time tunnel. All the days…even the ones that I…even the ones that I haven’t lived yet.

and here:

Doctor:                  Look, my name, my real name, that’s not the point. The name I chose is “the Doctor”. The name you choose, it’s like, it’s like a promise you make. He’s the one who broke the promise…He is my secret.
Hurt Doctor:        What I did I did without choice.
Doctor:                  I know.
Hurt Doctor:        In the name of peace and sanity.
Doctor:                  But not in the name of the Doctor.
 
and here: (from The Wedding of River Song)

Dorium:                 On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely, or fail to answer, a question will be asked. A question that must never, ever be answered.
Doctor:                  Silence will fall when the question is asked.
Dorium:                 Silence must fall would be a better translation. The Silence are determined the question will never be answered. That the Doctor will never reach Trenzalore.

If you take Dorium as telling the truth, interesting things seem to follow.

The Silence tried to stop the Eleventh Doctor from going to Trenzalore. They tried to kill him in Utah to prevent it.

So, they are not afraid of him dying. What then, are they afraid of?

They don’t want the Doctor to go to Trenzalore. Why? Could it be because if the Eleventh does go there then he will be assured of a future “which is infinitely more terrifying” than his past?

Trenzalore contains the tomb of the Doctor, a tomb which is the dying TARDIS. Simeon says, specifically, that the Doctor’s last battle was too much for “the old man”.

John Hurt seems quite likely to be that old man.

Say he is. Say he is the final (not necessarily the thirteenth) or at least a later incarnation of the Doctor we know. He is tired of running and fighting and so, rather than seeing out whatever skirmish he was involved in, he stops, fatally injures the TARDIS and creates the “time tunnel” – because that provides a chance for a fresh start.

So the act that is not done in the name of the Doctor is the killing of the TARDIS.
An act done to cheat time, to provide a selfish safety net. An act done for the peace and sanity of a tired, worn-out, frustrated Doctor; an act which puts him before others, in contravention of the name the Time Lord chose for himself, a name dedicated to a live of travel and assistance for others.

Somehow the Great Intelligence finds out that the Doctor’s tomb is at Trenzalore and so he lures the Eleventh there to kill him. And to kill him the Great Intelligence intends to enter his time tunnel and destroy the Doctor in his various time streams.

The Great Intelligence enters the “track of tears” and starts killing the Doctor. The Universe starts to adjust to the absence of the Doctor in various points in time and then Clara enters the “track of tears” and becomes the Impossible Girl and saves the Doctor in all of his past lives.

She does not know about the future ones and thus, cannot save them. This also explains why she did not know who Hurt was – if he was an earlier version of Smith’s Doctor (even an aged McGann’s Eighth) she should have recognised him. This ought to be true even if Hurt was Doctor Zero.

But the Great Intelligence could have destroyed the future 12th Doctor or any other lives the Doctor had not lived. And, in any event, it would be unexceptional that the “track of tears” was full of time energy and power.

Clara is lost in the “track of tears” and so the Doctor enters to save her. But it is unclear how he intends to do that.

But once he enters his own time tunnel, he surely would be able to know all of his future – because the whole of the life lived is there one way or another.

Which appears to be how he knows what the Hurt Doctor has done.

Which sets the scene for the only way for him to get out of the “tracks of tears” to be with the help of Clara (who we know can leave the time tunnel and live separate lives because we have seen that happen in Asylum and Snowmen) and the Hurt Doctor.

Perhaps Clara locates Tennant and Rose (who are fighting the Zygons?), saves them, they join forces with Smith and Hurt (the “trinity” to which Hurt has made reference?) defeat the Zygons (whatever they are doing?) and then, by use of some of the energy from the dying TARDIS (perhaps), they somehow fuse – the past and future of the Eleventh coalescing into one form – triggering a new regeneration and a new future.

Is this what the sSlence was trying to prevent? An envigorated Doctor with a new lease on life?

It seems to me that whatever Hurt’s Doctor did can’t be in the past of the Eleventh – because otherwise, if it was so contemptible, why didn’t the Doctor redress the deed? There may be a good reason for it, of course, but non-intervention seems odd unless the reason is remarkable.

And it is this, more than anything else, which makes me think that we are not talking about the Time War – because the Doctor could unseal the Time War anytime he wanted and it seems quite clear that the Doctor sealed the Time War in his own name, quite deliberately albeit at some personal cost.

Anyway – those are my thoughts for what they are worth.

Your time starts now…

 
J

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@bluesqueakpip     I am wounded…

Hartnell, Troughton, Pertwee, Baker T, Davison, Eccleston and Tennant are all “my” Doctors. For reasons that don’t necessarily revolve around their talent or skill, McCoy, McGann and Smith never reached that level for me. Baker C is the only one I actively dislike, again not entirely because of the actor himself.

I hate to think of you muttering…@Shazzbot‘s lovely mnemonic in full Terry Wisher rage voice will help you out every time!!!

🙂

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@phaseshift

As one who feels like he has been recovered from the lost forever pile, I think I can safely say that you should maybe start believing…

Not sure that Evil of the Daleks will be screened – but my spies tell me – and I really thought I had mentioned this before but maybe I didn’t? – that pretty much everything missing has been found, although not all of that which has been found is, so far, safely at the BBC.

Even though Africa and Asia did not buy a lot of Doctor Who it appears that a lot of episodes were hawked around there for viewings by salesfolk. Or, at least, so I am told.

I gather, though, that there was an idea that the opening and closing story of each Doctor would be played in the lead up to the 50th Anniversary Special….which would be quite exciting…

As I understand it, only Dalek Masterplan, Savages, Smugglers, Ice Warriors and Wheel in Space remain incomplete…

But no doubt @danmartinuk will know more…

🙂

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@miapatrick     Congratulations from me too!

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DOCTOR: You know, one day, just one day, maybe, I’m going to meet someone who gets the whole don’t wander off thing. Nine hundred years of phone box travel, it’s the only thing left to surprise me.

Actually, when you think about it, it is quite appropriate to look at Empty Child at the same time as Talons of Weng Chiang – because I think Moffat’s writing for AG Doctor Who owes quite a debt to Robert Holmes.

In both cases, you have the Doctor investigating a mystery, a specific period of Earth history juxtaposed against an alien menace, some obviously comedic moments and care and time spent with supporting characters. There is crisp, crackling dialogue and some laugh-out-loud moments together with some very strong and scary moments. The blend is excellent.
 
I liked this episode a lot when it first went out: it is full of terrific ideas: the concept of Time Agents, Captain Jack, the gas-mask zombies, the cinematic shots of Rose dangling in the air while London is bombed and then, leading to a gripping finale, the repeated mantra of “Are you my Mummy?”
 
The suspense builds over the course of the episode very nicely – with the result that you really do want to know what happens next, and waiting that week in 2005 was quite an ask, even for someone so familiar with the week-by-week delivery of BG Doctor Who.
 
It is interesting to mark for future discussion some of Moffat’s signature themes:
 
Doctor:     Mister Spock?
Rose:       What was I supposed to say? You don’t have a name. Don’t you ever get tired of ‘Doctor’? Doctor who?
 
and
 
Dr Constantine:   Before this war began, I was a father and a grandfather. Now I am neither. But I am still a Doctor.
Doctor:           I know the feeling.
 
and
 
Jack:       Oh, you sort of have a boyfriend called Mickey Smith but you consider yourself to be footloose and fancy free.
Rose:       What?
Jack:       Actually, the word you use is available
Rose:       No way!
Jack:       And another one…very.
 
So, in his first episode, he lays a stake in the ground for “What is the Doctor’s real name?; the burden the Doctor carries because of the Time War and flirting( something I think, but may be wrong about, crops up in every episode he will come to write).

At the time, it seemed quite clear that the Doctor knew that his children and grand-children were dead.

But, post-The Name of the Doctor, perhaps he did not mean that?

The fact that a child dies does not mean that the child’s parent ceases to be a parent – so is the Doctor alluding to something else, something different?

Did the Time War involve some re-writing of the Doctor’s personal history, so that, in the timeline that continues after the Time War, the Doctor that goes forward never actually had children/grandchildren.

Perhaps he has the memories of a life he actually never led, in rather the same way as Amy remembered killing Kovarian in the aborted time-line in The Wedding of River Song.

 
Perhaps it is the John Hurt version of the Doctor which does this reversal of the Doctor’s personal history? And if so, what a long game Moffat has been playing…

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@dounsel14    John Lithgow would be a great Doctor – but I think we all know what sort of Doctor he would be. I’d prefer a complete surprise.

@janetteb        Cheers and thanks!

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Doctor:           What’s this?
Leela:              A Janis thorn.
Doctor:           Yes! I thought I told you not to carry…
Leela:              He was trying to kill you!
Doctor:           Oh…Oh, well, in that case you better come along
There is something utterly delicious about Talons of Weng-Chiang. At the time, I remember that the first thing that struck me about it was how vastly different it was in tone and approach from its immediate predecessor, Robots of Death.
As @jimthefish says, it is Robert Holmes in cracking good form, working with the Doctor Who story style that started all the way back with Time Meddler: an alien in action in the identifiable history of Earth. And, I agree with @wolfweed that Gatiss clearly took inspiration for Crimson Horror from here (as well as many other places) but that is a good thing I think.
I don’t feel this episode is leisurely paced – in fact, I am still, after all these years and countless viewings, still amazed by how quickly it all goes.
I join in the chorus of approval for Mr Sin – a frightening creation – soulless, amoral, murderous, vengeful and capable of anything. It is as disturbing a creature as any in Doctor Who and one of the most evocative and ghoulish – if not the most.
Very glad that the AG first-timers are enjoying it. Especially good to hear that @Shazzbot is on tenterhooks!
The notion that all the female companions in Doctor Who were hysterical screamers was always bunkum dreamt up by the Press and those who want to pigeon-hole the women. Sure, there were some who fit that mould, but not many – and certainly not Leela.
Louise Jameson is perfect as Leela – everything she does is exact, purposeful and in character. Following Elisabeth Sladen was a tough job, but she did it magnificently. This story is the middle story in what I think of as the “Leela arc”: Robots of Death, Talons and Horror of Fang Rock. After that, K9 comes along and the dynamic is never quite the same again. She is both helped and hindered by Tom Baker’s clear distaste for a companion – helped, because she shines in the glow of his coldness and hindered because, if he had co-operated with the character, as he had done with Sarah-Jane, who knows where this unique relationship might have gone?
The giant rat never bothered me – well, in the sense that it didn’t destroy the mood. I laughed at it then, as now, but it just doesn’t matter. By the time it comes, the mood and tone has been set – and Louise Jameson manages to convincingly portray Leela’s horror and fear despite the sudden appearance of the Furry Ball of Fake Doom. (McLeela and I used to joke that this story’s alternate title was The Gerbils of Death).
I don’t see anything about this as racist. It is set in a specific period and rightly conforms to the specifics of that period. Bennett is excellent as Chang – I do remember a spirited debate with McLeela about whether or not he was the Master in disguise…
Baker is in excellent form – it is an interesting question whether his reaction to the death by suicide is alien coldness or underplaying – did the Doctor notice that Chang slipped him the suicide pill?
The dialogue is crisp and funny; the setting is perfect; the supporting cast is top notch; and the “what the hell is going on” factor is as high as the overall scariness factor.
Vintage Doctor Who.

 

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Oh, this is such a good idea!!

So looking forward to AG fans’ views.

 

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@miapatrick  and @arkleseizure  – Thanks, you are very kind.

It is, I confess freely, good to be back…albeit slowly…

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Thanks @craig.

Have a great weekend.

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@chickenkelly

Wouldn’t put too much value on the inside gossip. I find it hard to believe that it is not done and dusted.

Rory Kinnear is playing Thomas Cromwell in the BBC’s Wolf Hall adaptation – which is the single thing which makes me think he would not then become Dr Who…but, who knows?

E is there for a lot of reasons – but I did like Eccelstone’s personality. 🙂

 

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@craig

Hello!

Thanks for everything these last weeks – you are a true gentleman and champion. Much much appreciated.

I am on slow return to normal world, so plodding.

Is it possible to re-order the blogs in The Doctors so that they are in order? I think they are apart from Tom Baker.

And I can go in an edit the text of them – is that right? There are things I need to fix (spelling is not my forte!) and maybe add a few things – when that journey started I was not sure how deeply the narratives would entwine, but now I do and I might just need to flesh out the odd moment along the way. If that is possible?

Cheers

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And he is back…

Well, sort of… an hour a day of R&R is better than nothing. Greetings to all and many many thanks for the well wishes.

@Bluepipsqueak

Back to John Hurt…I think my option 4 was the same as your 13th Doctor? Or have I missed something?

So – is there no bonkers theory about who/what he is apart from those?

And I think you are too harsh on Andrew Scott – live, he is a better actor than any of the three who have been in the hot seat since the reboot – he can do anything, as his hilarious but profoundly sad turn in Design for Living at the Old Vic clearly showed. He is a wonderful Moriarty – but I think he could we a wonderful geeky professor with a time machine.

Rory Kinnear, on the other hand, would be a delicious, cold and chilling Master… (although I thought he was a crap Iago!)

Whoever it is, remember that it is highly likely that they will be looking for someone with quite different attributes from Matt Smith. Scott is very different – but so are the solid ones: Rory Kinnear, Andrew Buchan – and friend told me Ben Aldridge was being seen and that Rhys Ifwan had been told “No” which is why he had the spat with the Sunday Times journalist a week or so back…

But actually….I would love it to be Nicola Walker. Really love it.

Cheers to all – and special thanks to @craig who has been so so kind to my nephew as well as me.

 

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Posted by Craig in HTPBDET’s absence

Hello everyone! Thanks to everyone who sent well wishes – they were greatly appreciated.

Slowly returning to the land of the living… but will be a while yet.

Finally got to see Name of the Doctor last Sunday.

I will say no more than I liked a lot of it a lot.

I am not sure when I will get access to technology for long enough to read everyone’s thoughts and theories (although I have read a few things my nephews have printed out).

For what it is worth, I doubt the BBC will opt for a female Doctor, but if they do I hope its Nicola Walker. I also doubt they will opt for a black actor, but if they do, I hope its David Oyelowo. And if it is the usual youngish white male, then one of Andrew Scott, Andrew Buchan, Max Bennett and Tom Mison would be my choice (in that order); if they go for slightly older, then Paul Ritter or Ben Miles.

I have no issues with Rory Kinnear – he is a marvellous and mercurial actor. But he would not be my first choice.

What I think I would love them to do is give us a fabulous sexy female Master – Helen Mirren can definitely play that!

More importantly, have I got the possibilities for John Hurt covered in this list:

1. He is the older version of Doctor 8, the one who sealed the Time War?
2. He is the real Doctor 9, we all having wrongly assumed Eccelston was Doctor 9?
3. He is Doctor 0, the original, before the Hartnell incarnation became the First Doctor?
4. He is the final Doctor, the last regeneration, and he is the one who left the tomb on Trenzalore so that this can all happen and somehow give the Doctor a new lease or new leases of life and avert his timeline?
5. He is the Great Intelligence affected Doctor who did things in the name of the Great Intelligence?

What have I missed?

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Okay – well…

I think Clara is a normal human who makes herself Impossible this week in some paradox thing (linked probably to the TARDIS but not sure) and that the GI will either possess or kill the Doctor and that Clara will save/stop that in some timey-wimey way. I don’t think River will die; I don’t think Clara is a Pond.

I have no idea where Trenzalore is – but the photos released seem to suggest Gallifrey. Which seems odd to me – Time War and all that…

I doubt that River even knows who Clara is, but if she does, I bet she will not approve.

I also feel certain we will have a cliffhanger that will lead to the Anniversary special.

But otherwise – no idea. Not sure if memories has just been a distraction all along. Cant work it out because I felt so sure before that Clara was a construct but, now, not so sure.

Have a wonderful night tomorrow night all – I am not going to be able to see it til middle of next week at the earliest – so farewell for now.

And happy happy theorising.

xx

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@phileasf  Can I trouble you to repost that here:

http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/sidrat/regeneration/

Its a great post – and contains much to discuss…at length…

Cheers

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@ardaraith                True enough. although, interestingly, the only other woman we have seen regenerate had much the same attitude: see Romana in Destiny of the Daleks.  🙂

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@ardaraith            Moffat likes to repeat himself with variations. 🙂

@scaryb                 I thought the prequel was set in their joint memories – intimitng that there might be a frozen in time moment as the surely-will-be-coming-paradox resolves?

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@miapatrick

 I don’t know. I saw some difference between ‘Mels’ and ‘River’. They shared traits, which they would, having at that point exactly the same memories, but I do think they were different ‘people’, and ‘Mels’ was no more the Doctors River Song then Ten was Alex Kingstons’ River Songs’ Doctor.

Indeed.

But, of course, Mels did not know the Doctor, had been brainwashed to kill him and had never met and fallen in love with him. So there was bound to be a difference between Melody and the River Song we see in Silence in the Library and afterwards.

But in Lets Kill Hitler, Kingston played Melody, not River – they left Melody with the sisters to be raised/trained and she turned into River Song.

And like any Time Lord regeneration, there was a personality difference between Melody (Whatever number she was, sounded like at least two, possibly three) and the Melody played by Kingston.

I hate thinking about Lets Kill Hitler, but I think that is right.

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@bluesqueakpip

the only way the Doctor can die in fact is if we’re in a ‘time can be changed’ scenario – and frankly, Moffat’s already done ‘the Doctor dies’. I don’t think he’s going to be so careless a writer as to repeat that.

Well, er, No, actually.

For two reasons – at least.

Firstly, if there was a 12 regeneration rule it is this, as Engin said in Deadly Assassin:

After the twelfth regeneration, there is no plan that will postpone death.

So far, the Doctor has regenerated ten times. So there are two to go in any event.

Secondly, death can be postponed: by stealing someone else’s body (Keeper of Traken); by being granted a new regeneration cycle (The Movie); by exposure to the TARDIS (River Song); by receiving regeneration energy (from River)

That’s assuming that it was a rule anyway. Engin was a stickler for detail. So, if the Time Lord way was 12 regenerations and then into the Matrix for posterity, Engin would express himself that way quite understandably. The Matrix rule meant you died after 12 regenerations and went into the Matrix and no plan could postpose that because it was “the law”.

But that doesn’t mean the Matrix rule was the final word – just as the rules say “You must obey the first law of time” or “You must stop at a red light” – sometimes the rules can be broken. Rules provide order – and the Doctor is an agent of chaos when it suits him.

And, aside from all of that, there is another, even better, timey-wimey way…In Planet of the Spiders K’anpo Rinpoche gave the Third Doctor’s regeneration a push – in the same way, an earlier version of the Doctor could give Doctor 11 a push if he needed it…

But, better than all that, is to just to take  Troughton at his word. In Power of the Daleks he told Ben and Polly that

That’s it. I’ve been renewed. It’s part of the Tardis. Without it, I couldn’t survive

As far as any of us know, no Time Lord has travelled for so long inside a TARDIS. Most Time Lords just watch and do not interfere. River Song proves that sustained exposure to the TARDIS can give regenerative powers – in her case, because she was conceived there. Perhaps in the Doctor’s case because he has travelled for so long.

I have always taken the view that as long as he is inside the TARDIS, he will be able to regenerate because the TARDIS will sort it.

Of course, if the TARDIS is destroyed…

(PS Sorry @phaseshift for being the Continuity Nerd)

 

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@timeloop.    I don’t think Clara is definitely in love with the Doctor. Listens carefully to what she says. I think it is classic Moffat – sounds like something but actually is something else. Lovey-schmovey

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@craig.  @phaseshift. @jimthefish

I have just discovered that I’m going to have to go into a bit of confinement on Friday and will miss Sat – I will be out of action tilmWednesday next week it seems. No telly! Or Internet after Sat morning it appears.

Grr…

I have been meaning to ask if you think it might be a good idea to separate out the various Doctor posts from Faces of the Doctor and put them as individual blog posts under the blog – eleven, one for each incarnation? What do you think?

I just feel stupid posting now about the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Doctors when people are focused ( rightly ) on Davison and soon CB.

Just a thought.
 

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@phaseshift.  Guilty as charged. Kind of anyway. Yes, I wanted him to go. But I wanted him to have a better deal than he got.

Hated the Watcher concept. And I hated how they killed him.

So I have always thought of it as heroic. – but giving up to whatever the Watcher had told him. Because by then his incarnation had had enough – I mean, seriously , five stories with Adric and anyone would want to regenerate…

🙂

@Shazzbot.   I am with @jimthefish in part.

I don’t care what Moffat says – the “greatest secret” ain’t gonna be that great. It may just be that all his life he has been saved by a girl…

I am not even so sure anymore that his memories will be gone.

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@timeloop.       Suicide can be altruistic. I think all of the Doctors who died that way were altruistic….the exception for me is Tom Baker, because he seemed to me to justo give up – he had had enough.

I did not hate Rings but found that section, about the Doctor’s memories, odd. I see your take and it’s neat. Except that the Doctor is not noticeably unburdened afterwards and he does not lose his memory.

@satsumajoe.  Cyberiad has not been mentioned on TV before. Which book are you referencing? I don’t know it.

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@shazzbot  Sorry, forgot.

i think the regeneration image of 10 becoming 11 was just to emphasise the process to the Cyberiad.

 

 

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@shazzbot

I think @scaryb is right – some of my characterisations may be my own take. Tom Baker seemed to me to give up, to let go of the Telescope and therefore commit suicide by falling to his death. But it did not seem to me the same as the four “heroic” suicides and, in a way, I think it entirely suited where Baker was when he went.

However, whether Smith goes sooner or later, I would not discount him being murdered – its possible. And it would be dramatic and, in a way poetic, given the timeline he was avoiding in Impossible Astronaut to Wedding of River Song.

And it would be a first for Post-Rose/Time War ( see what I did there? :-)) which could be exciting – especially  as it would be a first for a newly regenerated Doctor to solve his own murder.

And we don’t get that many firsts in Doctor Who….

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If anyone is interested there is a memories related blog entry here:

Permalink:http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/sidrat/all-just-stories-in-the-end/

Come one and all.

Warning – it is VERY long….

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@Shazzbot         I think it depends on each “character” of the Doctor. Tennant was not ready to regenerate but he had to because he had to take responsibility. Ecclestone went cheerfully enough, so did Davison for that matter, but each in their own way, reflects their own individual idiosyncracies.

TimeLords may not see a new start as a blessing…

🙂

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@satsumajoe        I don’t think we know exactly what happened but it looked to me that the Doctor said “take me”, gobble me up – but clara stepped in with the leaf and saved the Doctor.

That said, it did look like there was regernation energy flowing….so we may yet revisit that scene. But, on balance, I think it is just that Clara saved the Doctor from making the sacrifice.

And we do not know in what capacity Tennant is returning in the 50th – but I suspect that he will be his Doctor with Rose out of their timestream, rather than the “other” Doctor married to Rose in alternative world happiness….but we will see.

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@Shazzbot           🙂

For my part, Tennant’s final line was shattering – mostly because it summed up that he knew he had gone off the rails and that because he had he had to pay the ultimate price; but, at the same time, it was the Pixie Professor, as I liked to think of him, being told he could not play anymore.

I thought it perfectly summed up the dichotomy which represented his journey as the Doctor. I never thought of it as reluctance though.

And while I hated the long regeneration farewell scene, I can understand why Tennant’s Dr, in RTD’s eyes, needed it – his life was flashing before his eyes as he faced the final moment pre-regeneration.

Hartnell simply collapsed, his body having “worn thin” possibly from the loss of energy to Mondas, possibly for other end-of-incarnation reasons; Troughton was regenerated by the Time Lords as a punishment; Pertwee committed suicide because he knew his interference had caused a problem and he had to fix it and to fix it would kill him; Tom Baker gave up, tired and replete, ready for change and “the moment (having) been prepared for”; Davison also committed suicide, to save his companion and unsure whether he had gone so far as to be able to regenerate (so, easily the most heroic death); Colin Baker we never saw regenerate so who knows, but possibly he disappeared up his own bottom to start the process; McCoy was murdered so his end was involuntary and his “accident” which seemed fairly fatal turned out not to be ( a reference to Troughton’s assertion that Time Lords “live forever barring accidents” ); McGann – nobody knows; either before, during or after the Time War he became Ecclestone (apparently); Ecclestone committed suicide to save Rose; Tennant committed suicide to save Wilf.

 

 

 

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@janetteb        She has the confidence to disobey the Doctor, something that current Clara so obviously lacks

I guess that is my central issue. Why does she need such confidence?

And I am not sure she does not disobey him anyway – she certainly does by producing the leaf because that was not how he wanted to solve that crisis, she has to convince him it is she who should confront Skaldak when he does not want her to go, she has to talk over him and communicate telepathically to him to get him to realise that the crooked man is just a lonely frightened lover lost in a strange world, she wanders through the TARDIS when she must know he would prefer her to stay put in the console room, she pushes him away with the sonic screwdriver to use the chair to stop Diana Rigg’s Mrs G and her rocket, she convinces him to take the kids on the trip in the TARDIS and she slaps his face not sure if he is the Doctor when she does it and she tells him to butt out of her discussion with Porridge about marriage.

What constitutes “disobey”?

Sure, she might agree to stay put when he suggests it – that just makes her sensible and not an idiot, which many companions are forced to be for plot points. Wandering off when you are told to stay put does not make you interesting or induce empathy. Well, not for me anyway.

I dont see this Clara as any shrinking violet. Nor do I see her as particularly more or less obediant/defiant/self-willed than Asylum Clara or Snowmen Clara. Neither of them knew who he was to start with – yet Snowmen Clara knew Pond was a word that would get his attention: which suggests that certian things trigger extra memories for the Impossible Girl. This seems to happen to current clara at odd times – like end of Journey and that odd speech about not going looking for his name.

And on a simple basis, once she, as a human (if she is), sees the birth and death of Earth in one go, really is there anything likely to take your breath away after that? She was full of wonder in Rings and astonished but brave in relation to Skaldak.

I know there is no companion handbook – but, really, Clara seems to me to be that rare thing: an unique and fascinating one. Just as Rory, Donna and Rose were before her in Nu-Who. (Sorry all Amy lovers but except as a little girl she just never ever worked for me – I never cared what happened to her)

I totally agree – I don’t know what the Moffat intention is with Clara and the Doctor, but please GOD, let it not be a love affair.

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@janetteb       Not being confrontational, but I don’t understand why everyone finds this Clara blank or non-reactive.

I know it is, as @jimthefish says mostly subjective but…

If she is, as I suspect she is, a product of some time scatterring which is about to happen to her, it means, in that ghastly paradoxical way, that she will be everywhere but without necessarily all of the memories that she should have. We know this Clara does not remember Daleks or Snowmen but that does not mean that she is not diminished in some way by whatever makes her the Impossible Girl.

She does not strike me as blank – quite the opposite in fact. She is always on guard, always watchful, always careful – if her purpose is to save the Doctor then that is what you would expect, surely? She puts his needs first because that is her mission, she is always secondary.

She cares a lot about things that happen – her behaviour constantly is one of worry and concern, for her charges, the Doctor, the girl to be sacrificed, her mother, Skaldak, Emma, the crooked man, the TARDIS, Rachael Stirling, Alice, Porridge, her army charges…but mostly the Doctor. She cries in pain; she feels what others feel and expresses empathy wonderfully – her scenes with David Warner and Jessica Raine in particular spring to mind. She cares what happens to the Doctor and she watches. She steps up to whatever task he requires without question (usually). And, apart from last week, she has saved him everytime. (And, indeed, you could argue that Porridge only activated the teleport function because his encounter with her, Clara, had given him hope)

Okay – she does not step out of the TARDIS and go all bug-eyed with amazement – but, so what? Not everyone shows their inner feelings – but watch her eyes, they are alive with excitement, grief, joy, energy and empathy.

I think she is rather incredible actually – if she is what I think she is. (If she turns out to be a trap or a Zygon, I will probably hate her!! 🙁 )

And after whatever timey wimey paradoxical Moffat trademark thing occurs in the finale, presumably going forward she will be the fusion of all three Claras, plus perhaps thousands more?, and that will be an even harder task for JLC to pull off.

Personally, I cannot wait – because I think she is more than capable as an actress. I am already slightly excited by the Rose and Clara meeting – the reverse of the School Reunion Sarah/Rose encounter perhaps?

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@craig        Yes, I think you are right. Its just the Tennant regeneration.

There are though two clear gaps: what happened between McGann and Eccleston and what happened between Tennant regenerating and Smith crash-landing in Eleventh Hour.

It would be timey wimey for Moffat to riff on either, but especially so if we come to find why the TARDIS crashed in the first place while or just after his regeneration stabilised.

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@Shazzbot   Bless!  X

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@lula          Your 7 year old niece seems very bright to me!

A grave for Time Lords….maybe that is exactly what Trenzalore is. And if it was, I guess that would be a place “you should never go” if you were the Doctor – you should not cross your timeline to find out how you finally die to try and stop it…

I like your niece’s thinking!

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@lula           Truly, I think you need not fear. I feel sure that River will survive this week.

I am more interested in what Trenzalore is…all we know is that it is the place where people must speak the truth and the eleventh will fall…but what kind of a place is it?

And why is there a (sure to be fake) tomb of River Song there?

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@timeloop         Why do you think it is likely to be River’s final appearance? She has seen more than two faces of the Doctor – that was clear from her outing with Tennant. She can pop up after Smith regenerates no problem.

I dont think she is going to solve anything here – that’s going to be Clara – but the presence of her grave makes it certain in my mind that she will not die!

🙂

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I have posted some very long musings on the Blog space here: 

http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/sidrat/cybermen-emotions-and-nightmare-in-silver/

Hope that’s the link – if anyone is interested.

Some ramblings about Cybermen, Emotions and what I think is the real, but not fatal flaw in Silver.

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At the risk of being denounced as a heretic, I really do not think that the finale will see any memories (except perhaps Clara’s being used to fix the Doctor maybe) and I don’t think it will be a dream, in the Doctor’s head or that the Doctor will wake up suddenly possessed by Cyberaid or Dalek hive entitites.

Moffat is pretty predictable in his unpredictableness.

I have been saying for a while that I think Clara will, in some paradoxical way, possibly with the kelp of the TARDIS, create herself as the Impossible Girl. And the trailer seems to back that up.

She might be normal or she might be someone – but she is going to make herself Impossible here – I feel sure of it. Maybe River helps – not sure.

We know the GI is there – and I would not be surprised if that is a trick, a cover. I am sure they will be important and they will probably possess the Doctor’s mind, it having been weakened by the experience with the Cybermen.

But the “game-changing” moment… I don’t think that is going to be about the GI.

@jimthefish made an excellent point about there being a deliberate plan to celebrate THE Doctor Who monsters. So we have had the big five – Daleks, Cybermen, GI, Sontarans and Ice Warriors one way or another. And we have been told the Zygons are coming. It almost makes me wonder if the Nestenes are lurking around somewhere.

But then I realised that Asylum was really part of the Pond story. So maybe, we have not had the Daleks as yet in this celebratory mode? Maybe Asylum was a feint? Maybe they are coming in the finale?

I wonder too if  Clara being around to save the Doctor turns out somehow to be a surprise plot point – maybe she has saved him when she shouldn’t have – say in Rings?

Moffat says it is in plain sight – well there is nothing in more plain sight than the Doctor. By saving him, has Clara altered some time line – or, as we saw foreshadowed in Journey, could her saving of him in Rings somehow have a retrospective effect on his life which alters it and therefore him – and maybe other things? Is this how River gets released and becomes corporeal again? Will the doctor be faced with the dilemma of restoring his timeline and losing River or not restoring it. Will his failure to restore the timeline mean a brand new start?

Whatever happens it is certain to be timey wimey, involve at least one maybe more paradoxes and given how there is so much emphasis on Clara saving the Doctor I am betting that she will have saved him one time too many (and Rings looks like the one because the leaf thing was so odd) and that will somehow cost the Eleventh dearly.

And she didn’t save him in Silver – somehow I wonder if that is a clue too? That she doesn’t always save him; she may be Impossible but not Infallible?

Rather sadly, I think I have given up hope on her being Susan. 🙁

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In defence of the Children

I liked them and I am happy to admit it.

I think they did precisely what the script required of them and then some.

Artie was a cute nerd who spoke in tones which suggested he was not really Angie’s sister. Another mystery? Or pure co-incidence? His being taken by the Cyberman was scary. His delivery of the cyber-controlled line was faultless – and Angie’s scream real.

Angie has the harder part, because she is trying to be the cool “whatevs” snarky one – yet, she provided the solution when it was, actually,  staring at everyone in the face. She knew who Porridge was because she had paid attention. Her joy at the anti-grav ride was great – as were her complaints about “the stupid box” and the Moonbase feel. She was unafraid to challenge the Doctor. There was a consistency to what she did which made her seem very normal to me.

My daughter was once abducted at a fair ground. She was 14. She was found, unhurt and safe, about an hour later – her mad abducter had just wanted a little girl to go on the ride his own daughter had died on years earlier (that child had suffered from a hole in the heart and she died unexpectedly) – but she had been terrified, told me she had screamed a lot until he told her he would tape her mouth if she didn’t stop and cried – but as soon as she was back with me and her brothers, she hugged me and wanted an ice-cream. Children are very good at dealing with absurdly disturbing things.

My nephews were glad they were there. Firstly, because it was “cool that kids like us get to fly in the TARDIS ant just grown-ups”. Secondly, because if the kids were not there, then, “inevitably, Clara would have been the one cyber-ised” and they preferred her in all the castle action, especially her “brilliant electrocution plan”. Thirdly, although none would admit this, it was not as scary because the kids were there and there was no way they were going to die.

My eldest nephew though it was quite clear why the TARDIS gave Angie a phone: its a bribe to ensure loyalty and a way to control any attempt to use it to spread secrets the Doctor would rather not be spread.

They had no trouble with why the kids were told to sleep in Webley’s trailer. The Doctor would not lock them in the TARDIS because Angie couldn’t be trusted not to wander around and, as Journey showed, the interior of the TARDIS is full of traps for the unwary. They would not have gone to sleep in the Armybase – so where else was there? And both Porride and Webley had been safe as houses there for some time.

I am with my nephews. I liked the children and do not see that anything they did was damaging or suspense-breaking. In fact, I think they helped the show – because it was able to be that thing only Doctor Who can be – quirky, childish, murderous, thrilling, scary and unexpected all at once. 

I found it to be 45 minutes of mostly pure pleasure. (I will come back to that when I am feeling braver)

 

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@lula

What a fascinating idea about the painting – I rather hope you are right. It would be a nice circle.

But, alas, I think you have rather more confidence in SM than I do.

@blenkinsopthebrave

Hmmm…..River is incorporeal in CAL, could she really be pregnant and have a child in there?

I don’t buy that I am afraid.

As to the “I was born” business….well, seems typically SM timey-wimey to me. Clara is just stating a fact – she, the Impossible Girl, was born, as the Impossible Girl, to save the Dr. So, Clara then makes it happen. She does something – something which it seems River says is unwise – as Clara which births the Impossible Girl.

I am no doubt wrong…but I am thinking it is going to be a simple, and probably unsatisfactory, resolution – with no name.

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

This is probably misdirection, but there is a story from the Production Office (allegedly according to one of the tabloids in the UK) that the loss of memory motif is important – for the Anniversary Special.

The Doctor has forgotten a chunk of himself – the Ninth incarnation. John Hurt plays that part – the 9th Doctor. The paintings are because there is some gallery of paintings of all the Drs ( all good clean new merchandise ) which includes Hurt as 9, Ecclestone as 10, Tennant as 11 and Smith as 12.

Which puts us at the “no more than 12 regenerations point” so gets SM a chance to change everything…

Actually, I quite like it as an idea. Almost hope it is right.

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@timeloop       Whatever it is , it will not be River’s Grave. If that was the Doctor’s hand on it then its a trap or a door – surely?

I can’t see what everyone is so excited about in the trailers – none of them seem to me to say anything.

Strax attacking Vastra is interesting – sounds like  time unravelling somehow – maybe because the GI is obliterating the Doctor’s memory through its possession of the TARDIS?

And is it just me or is River looking ghostly…Clara doesn’t believe in Ghosts…

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@phaseshift    He writes Dalek fan fiction!!! That explains everything…

@bluesqueakpip       Really? I did not get the slightest notion that Smith was thinking in an sexual way about Clara apart from that odd final remark – which could be interpreted a number of ways.

The Cyberaid made the forward suggestions to Clara – which she repelled. The Doctor did not seem that disturbed by the proposal of marriage – certainly, he did not look like a stricken lover.

Just because a child thinks they are boyfriend and girlfriend (and that is twice now Artie/Angie has said that) does not mean its true – just means it is what they think.

Surely the remarks he makes to Clara when he is rid of the Cyberinfluence are enough to demonstrate that he is not thinking that way about her?

Perhaps it is just me – missing the bleeding obvious because I don’t want it to be that way? /but, truly, I see it not.

Why does the TARDIS want Angie to have the phone…that mystifies me.

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@phaseshift      There is a lot of scremaing though…

I am excited to have been moderated out by the Guardian Nannies.

This is what I posted under Truculent Sheep’s outpuring of bile:

“I bow to your ability, perception, taste and style.

You clearly are a world expert in things that read like “they were farted out during a weekend”.

All kudos to you”

I think that is what I said – and it was deleted….

🙂

 

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@craig  @phaseshift  @JimThe Fish

I have posted something else to the Blog site, but if you would rather it in in Memories, then feel free to move it. Just thought it might spark some discussion.

Cheers

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@chickenkelly              If its the prequel “She Said, He Said” – its on the BBC website and doesn’t say anything.

POSSIBLY SPOILERY

POSSIBLY SPOILERY

Although given its on the official site, I don’t really think so….

Curious to know where it was shot – if you were building a set to look like the inside of the Doctor’s memories, you might do worse…

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@phaseshift      I am sad to admit I have only even read one Gaiman book – The Graveyard Book which I adored. So good to know there are other nods there too.

Dear me – the Guardian is replete with vicious hatred and its only 8.30…

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“This is like a Moonbase or something”

Yes, yes it is. Like The Moonbase in fact – in so many ways. A loving tribute to the story that first made Cybermen truly scary – a story that evokes everything that was frightening about the Cybermen then but adds more. Plus there is playing with gravity, references to weather control, and the lurking in the corridors – Gaiman even managed to put me on edge just by Clara having a cup of tea…evocative stuff.

This was really terrific writing from Gaiman in true fanperson mode – if this was the only tribute story of the year, it is a marvellous celebration of the programme. Willy Wonka meets The Moonbase meets Tomb of the Cybermen meets Earthshock. Singularly horrifying that the Cybermen were taking children and others from the playground before it closed…

Adored the whole concept of Cyber upgrades – makes them utterly frightening in a logical way (note, though, Polly’s ingenious solvent solution would still possibly work!) – and the Cybermites. The separating parts, the fast movement, the relentless remorseless advances…truly terrific.

These guys are way more terrifying than the Daleks! Gaiman more than fulfilled his brief.

He has also, in a quite definite way, ended the debate that sprang from Brain of Morbius – it is now unarguable that Hartnell was the first incarnation of the Doctor. (Will that be important for the finale I wonder?)

Clara was really sensational in this story, and, to my surprise, the kids were great. Loved Artie’s intelligent but “still a child” performance and the moment when the Cyberman took him was scary – really scary.

I almost expect to find out Angie will grow up to be Nefertiti…that exchange at the end was tantalizing…

The guest characters were all great – particularly liked the weary Emperor. His proposal to Clara was so genuinely touching, it startled me. It was hard not to feel empathy with the untrained “loser” soldiers – and was that the same Omega type symbol they were sporting??

The story is mostly solid, it all looks good, it’s genuinely exciting in parts and yet…something about it just did not seem to quite soar…

The problem always with Cybermen is that, for all they are remorseless and logical creatures, they often make silly choices. Here, it was difficult to see why they did not just take the two children, completely assimilate them and then go looking for the Doctor. Once they had the children, they should have known about the TARDIS – one of the first couple of Cybermen could have guarded it or taken it. Why didn’t they do the logical thing? It’s an emotional reaction to want more than you need – they are meant to be entirely emotionless yet that is what they did here.
Equally, why were the children let go? Its not as if the Doctor had the upper hand – it was illogical for the Cyberforces to give up the children because the Doctor took the Queen. (Loved that the Time Lords invested Chess…)
Another issue for me was the material involving the Doctor meeting his cyber-equivalent in the Cyberthoughtstream. – I did not find that chilling or disturbing – just wanted it to end.

Why would the Doctor tell the Cyberconsciousness anything about his life or the Time Lords? The empty threat to regenerate did not seem sufficient to me. The Doctor had the gold ticket, he could have cut the link anytime he wanted. Why did he let it go on? He knew he could not trust the Cybercontrol. Given the Doctor had no way of knowing where the Cybercontrol centre was – and, given the flashing blue light on the asteroid at the end, there are still Cybermen somewhere, who now know a lot more about him and the Time Lords than they did before…

But, really, these are quibbles. I think this is now one of Smith’s best stories to date. It is refreshing to be able to say that week after week…it could almost be 1967/69 or 1975/77 again…

Smith was good here and handled the inherent acting difficulties well enough. Very interesting that the end makes clear he has no idea who Clara is. So, going into the finale neither he nor Clara know who or what she is…except…when the Cyberiad (?) detected the mental block in the Doctor’s mind they had been discussing Clara…so, was the Dr stopping them finding out something about her or was that co-incidence? Indeed, when conversing with Clara later, the impression is given that the Cyberiad knows who or what she is, having accessed the Doctor’s memories. So was the mind block something the Doctor placed in his own mind (or someone else did) which prevents him knowing who Clara really is?
 
And, interesting that Clara did not save the day this week…and that the TARDIS wanted Angie to have a phone…
 
I did not understand why, though, the Doctor left Webley behind – surely he should have been beamed up with the rest of them?

Was a tad excited about the discussion about recreating the Doctor from the hole he left behind – similar to a musing I posted here a week or two ago.

This run of stories since Snowmen has been the high point of the Smith/Moffat era for me. Different styles, great stories, thrills and laughs and mysteries – everything Doctor Who should always be.

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