S33 (7) 13 – Nightmare in Silver

Home Forums Episodes The Eleventh Doctor S33 (7) 13 – Nightmare in Silver

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  • #8525
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    ticket

    #8531
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    While the conversation above has been fun, I don’t think I’m going to open up next week’s episode early. This was a little experiment but I think it has fractured the forum discussion too much, with some people eager to join in, but others wary to venture anywhere near here.

    However, I’d be interested in others opinions. My feeling is that it’s too risky with one episode to go. I think conversation about this episode and theories about next week’s episode should all stay here. And all spoilers should be posted in the Spoilers thread.

    Let me know what you think. Will be back sometime after the FA Cup Final is over (I’m not a big fan of football but some of my friends are).

    #8537
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @craig

    I think I agree. I don’t think the conversation has been spoilerish, but it does add another split to the conversation.

    One thing I did enjoy though was @wolfweed s caption competition. It was fun reading some of the jokes. As he has an eye for a good pic, perhaps he could give some thought to a monthly blog post with a different picture to have a few comments next to?

    #8538
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    I just want to feel like I felt when this showed:

    #8539
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    Hope this works – No, pressure, Mr Gaiman…

     

    http://ontv.deviantart.com/art/Doctor-Two-and-the-Cybermen-96270418

    #8569
    Timeloop @timeloop

    That was brilliant. Hard to catch everything when someone is washing dishes and another one is playing guitar and there is gerneral chatter in a big kitchen. But this was amazing. You guys were right about the GI! How dud this guys survive? It was River Songs Grave…… WTH? That one corridoe was the one from the headless monks. Liked the inner dialoge. The “next time” trailor about this episode last week was totally missleading.

    I could see JCL as a doctor, even though i would not like it much…. But this episode was fantastic.

    #8570
    Whisht @whisht

    loved this one – not had much time to digest, but Gaiman really does have a great feel for stories that appeal to the teen (in us all).

    mainly by not talking down (which says a lot about him).

    #8571
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    “This is like a Moonbase or something”

    Yes, yes it is. Like The Moonbase in fact – in so many ways. A loving tribute to the story that first made Cybermen truly scary – a story that evokes everything that was frightening about the Cybermen then but adds more. Plus there is playing with gravity, references to weather control, and the lurking in the corridors – Gaiman even managed to put me on edge just by Clara having a cup of tea…evocative stuff.

    This was really terrific writing from Gaiman in true fanperson mode – if this was the only tribute story of the year, it is a marvellous celebration of the programme. Willy Wonka meets The Moonbase meets Tomb of the Cybermen meets Earthshock. Singularly horrifying that the Cybermen were taking children and others from the playground before it closed…

    Adored the whole concept of Cyber upgrades – makes them utterly frightening in a logical way (note, though, Polly’s ingenious solvent solution would still possibly work!) – and the Cybermites. The separating parts, the fast movement, the relentless remorseless advances…truly terrific.

    These guys are way more terrifying than the Daleks! Gaiman more than fulfilled his brief.

    He has also, in a quite definite way, ended the debate that sprang from Brain of Morbius – it is now unarguable that Hartnell was the first incarnation of the Doctor. (Will that be important for the finale I wonder?)

    Clara was really sensational in this story, and, to my surprise, the kids were great. Loved Artie’s intelligent but “still a child” performance and the moment when the Cyberman took him was scary – really scary.

    I almost expect to find out Angie will grow up to be Nefertiti…that exchange at the end was tantalizing…

    The guest characters were all great – particularly liked the weary Emperor. His proposal to Clara was so genuinely touching, it startled me. It was hard not to feel empathy with the untrained “loser” soldiers – and was that the same Omega type symbol they were sporting??

    The story is mostly solid, it all looks good, it’s genuinely exciting in parts and yet…something about it just did not seem to quite soar…

    The problem always with Cybermen is that, for all they are remorseless and logical creatures, they often make silly choices. Here, it was difficult to see why they did not just take the two children, completely assimilate them and then go looking for the Doctor. Once they had the children, they should have known about the TARDIS – one of the first couple of Cybermen could have guarded it or taken it. Why didn’t they do the logical thing? It’s an emotional reaction to want more than you need – they are meant to be entirely emotionless yet that is what they did here.
    Equally, why were the children let go? Its not as if the Doctor had the upper hand – it was illogical for the Cyberforces to give up the children because the Doctor took the Queen. (Loved that the Time Lords invested Chess…)
    Another issue for me was the material involving the Doctor meeting his cyber-equivalent in the Cyberthoughtstream. – I did not find that chilling or disturbing – just wanted it to end.

    Why would the Doctor tell the Cyberconsciousness anything about his life or the Time Lords? The empty threat to regenerate did not seem sufficient to me. The Doctor had the gold ticket, he could have cut the link anytime he wanted. Why did he let it go on? He knew he could not trust the Cybercontrol. Given the Doctor had no way of knowing where the Cybercontrol centre was – and, given the flashing blue light on the asteroid at the end, there are still Cybermen somewhere, who now know a lot more about him and the Time Lords than they did before…

    But, really, these are quibbles. I think this is now one of Smith’s best stories to date. It is refreshing to be able to say that week after week…it could almost be 1967/69 or 1975/77 again…

    Smith was good here and handled the inherent acting difficulties well enough. Very interesting that the end makes clear he has no idea who Clara is. So, going into the finale neither he nor Clara know who or what she is…except…when the Cyberiad (?) detected the mental block in the Doctor’s mind they had been discussing Clara…so, was the Dr stopping them finding out something about her or was that co-incidence? Indeed, when conversing with Clara later, the impression is given that the Cyberiad knows who or what she is, having accessed the Doctor’s memories. So was the mind block something the Doctor placed in his own mind (or someone else did) which prevents him knowing who Clara really is?
     
    And, interesting that Clara did not save the day this week…and that the TARDIS wanted Angie to have a phone…
     
    I did not understand why, though, the Doctor left Webley behind – surely he should have been beamed up with the rest of them?

    Was a tad excited about the discussion about recreating the Doctor from the hole he left behind – similar to a musing I posted here a week or two ago.

    This run of stories since Snowmen has been the high point of the Smith/Moffat era for me. Different styles, great stories, thrills and laughs and mysteries – everything Doctor Who should always be.

    #8572
    Whisht @whisht

    agree with @htpbdet (as ever!) – there’s always plot holes in programmes (eg why didn’t the baddie just kill the hero when he had him at his mercy; how come the rocket didn’t fry them etc etc etc).

    But they only matter (to me) when the overall quality of the show is poor and then all of a sudden the suspension-of-disbelief is broken and only then do I think “oh, but this is silly!”

    and I rarely get this with Who – NiS was great fun! (and I’d rather have fun than die nit-picking!)

    #8573
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    I really like that. “The Doctors Wife” was such a good episode I really expected “The difficult second episode” syndrome to kick in. He really did not disappoint though.

    Lots and lots to ponder and I really need a rewatch. @htpbdet has caught a lot of details, but there were some echoes of the writers other works here to good effect. His “Sandman” series has a historical story (August) which tells the tale of a day that an aging Emperor Augustus pretends to be a begger in Rome for a day, relating his life story and his fears about the empire to the Dwarf actor who helps him. It’s remarkable stuff, about dreams and boundaries. Well worth a read.

    #8574
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @phaseshift      I am sad to admit I have only even read one Gaiman book – The Graveyard Book which I adored. So good to know there are other nods there too.

    Dear me – the Guardian is replete with vicious hatred and its only 8.30…

    #8575
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    chs rbt

    The Mechanical Turk.

     

    #8576
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    g c p

    Did you spot it?

    #8577
    Mephistopheles @mephistopheles

    @phaseshift I loved Sandman. Stunning series. Other Gaiman tropes that emerged: the wandering Cyber-hand is similar to the hand of the Other Mother in Coraline. American Gods explores the fading fortunes of the gods who have lost their believers – interesting that this episode raised the possibility of the universe remembering the god-like Doctor.

    I loved it.

    Porridge talking about ‘the poor blighter who had to press the button’ was a wonderful double reference. If we’re spotting recurrent themes/ideas, the line ‘I think you do it with mirrors’ has such relevance for the whole of this series, with Clara being the trick reflected throughout time and space.

    #8578
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    OK, interesting: Clara switching into Command mode very easily.

    Why did the CyberDoctor (Mr Clever- OK, not good at names, in a rather elevenish way) call her flesh girl? Red Herring? She’s been scanned and read as human. (The empath would have read a flesh-Clara as human if Clara thought she was human, but the salvagers device…)

    The doctor fighting for control of his memories.

    A very Dark Doctor, reacting to the Cybermisation with a very eleveny enthusiasm and talkativeness.

    #8579
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Paul McGann is narrating a Star Trek documentary right now…

    #8580
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @htpbdet – perhaps they were all supporters of the losing team in the FA Cup final? (not saying who in case anyone has recorded it for later).

    That was fun, though (the episode, not the cup final).

     

    #8581
    Galactus @galactus

    @phaseshift Good spot on the echo of Gaiman’s August story. Didn’t occur to me while viewing the episode, but spot on. And of course, the entire Sandman epic revolves around the idea of the all powerful entity who, while appearing to be assured in his position, secretly questions his own existence and recognises change is no bad thing. Makes you wonder whether Gaiman would be the perfect person to take over from Moffat when he calls it a day. Honestly, to any bloggers who haven’t read it, I couldn’t recommend Sandman highly enough.

    On that note, I thought the Emporer’s speech about feeling more sorry for the person who pressed the button and destroyed a galaxy to end a war was a reference to what we’re about to find out about the Doctor on the fields of Trenzalor as much as to the emporer’s own past.

    Absolutely loved, loved, loved the brief Tomb of the Cybermen sequence. I actually clapped at that. Yes, I know. I’m not proud.

    So, the big question. The Doctor’s mental block regarding Clara. Self imposed? Or something more interesting/sinister? She’s perfect for him. Is this why the TARDIS dislikes her? Perhaps the TARDIS already knows who she is.

    Oh, and Cybermen so unrelenting that people have to blow up planets or even entire galaxies to stop them the moment one appears? Yeah, that’s nasty enough for me. Well done, Neil.

    #8582
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @miapatrick – yes, I watched that performance and thought of @juniperfish‘s Dark Doctor.

    And we’re definitely drifting back in the direction of a ‘programmed’ Clara, aren’t we? She can do anything required. Except, when required to be a soldier – she’s very good at it, but loses.

    Now the difference between Clara in this episode and Clara in Cold War is that her negotiation role was her own suggestion. Broadly, I’m thinking: when Clara is a free agent, she saves the day. When Clara is told to do something, she’s not as effective – as if the command becomes a constraint which stops her genuine abilities.

    Query to the Cyberiad: has Clara ever disobeyed a direct command from the Doctor? We’ve all noted her odd capacity for staying where she’s told to stay, which is most unlike the usual run of companions. But has she ever disobeyed a direct order from him?

    #8583
    Whisht @whisht

    Just to say, I really liked the portrayal of the emperor – very understated yet affecting.

    but (oh I hate myself for this but) it took the great Warwick and good stuff from Smith and JLC to offset the teenage girl’s acting.

    sorry.

    btw – @bluesqueakpip may I just say that you are fantastic in not saying who won the final!
    Not sure if you’re in to sports etc but the ‘spoiler’ aspect is probably more important in sport than anywhere, as its a live event.
    You’re fantastic in other ways(!), but this was pure ‘thinking of others’!
    ta

    #8584
    stevethewhistle @steve-thorp

    The cybermites remind me of this picture by M Escher.

    File:House Of Stairs (Escher).jpg

    #8585
    chickenelly @chickenelly

    WTF?

    Did you all see the preview of the series finale which just played on BBC2?  *shakes fist* Well I might as well give up speculating since it just told you who Clara was…

    #8586
    Galactus @galactus

    Note to self. Spell emperor correctly.

    #8587
    Whisht @whisht

    @bluesqueakpip et al – I guess we just need to hold our breath for when Clara doesn’t do what she’s told, saves the day/Dr and sets up classic companion behaviour for next year!

    Its gonna be fun!

    #8588
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @chickenelly

    Yes, I did. Do you mean the ‘She said, He said’ minisode?  It’s on the website, and the red button option for digital, and probably on YouTube shortly. 

    But I didn’t think it told you who Clara was. The writer was one S. Moffat; so anything we’ve just been told is almost certainly the characters’ beliefs – but complete misdirection.

    #8589
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @wolfweed yes, indeed

    #8590
    Whisht @whisht

    btw – I don’t watch trailers (probably like @scaryb) so can we treat even trailers, Radio Times, Guardian publicity shots – ie everything as Spoilers and for that forum thread?

    That way there’s no mistakes – leave every other thread for well thought through, bonkers theories.

    otherwise I’ll stick to the music thread until after the episode (which is a shame, but I’ll jump in after the show!)

    #8591
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @galactus– agree about the ‘monster’ line. Especially coming after the Doctor being ‘named’ monster last week and not protesting. Now I’m thinking also about what ‘Mr Clever’ said about him erasing himself, and being findable by the gap he leaves- which the doctor seemed struck by- and what the emperor saying about how it was nice to get away (he got a better run I think than the doctors short-lived anonymous ‘caretaker’ stint) but now they’ve found him (the emperor) they’ll keep more of an eye on him- getting away was a one chance thing. And what will be the reaction across the universe when various species realise the doctor was trying to pull a ‘silence’ on them- making them forget he existed- that’s what made the silence so terrifying.

    @bluesqueakpip– good point re: Clara’s failure (I was surprised by DM’s comment about making a hash of negotiations with the Ice Warrior, like you, I think she succeeded there. Here, I was going to say at least the planet didn’t get blown up on her watch, which was her main task given by the doctor, but then I remembered the only reason for this was because the soldier walked towards a window and got shot. Thinking back, the nearest I can think of, of Clara disobeying a direct order is in Cold War when he ‘forbids’ her negotiating with the Ice Warrior, but that was to manipulate the captain. She did insist on hacking the WiFi upload people (again, her own initiative to good effect) but I don’t think there was a direct order.

    She did, here, pick a good spot, which could at least slow the Cybermen down. Maybe, had she picked the ‘beach’ or the ‘Cauldron’  they would have run out of time?

    #8592
    thommck @thommck

    @chickenelly oh no! Was that the same as the prequel or just an advert?

    This episode was a bit hit & miss for me but there was so much in it I think we will be discussing it all week!

    Matt did a great impression of 9 & 10. Lots of double-doctor and bad doctor. We also saw waxworks again! I recognised a few, including the vulture from SJA episode ‘death of the doctor”. Some foreshadowing perhaps? We also get reminded the Doctor can regenerate at will not just if dying.

    Odd how Clara’s brooch was the same as her necklace. Does it bear any resemblance to UNIT’s crest? Also, suprised how much she trusted the Doctor to protect the kids and she just left them!

    I thought the chess thing was a bit naff, as well as the confrontation in the Doctor’s mind. We do see the Doctor is willing to sacrifice his queen. Is that Clara or River?

    I thought the mind block was the Doctor’s name, even he doesn’t know it anymore. Did he block it out on purpose? Will him speaking it be the same as the Emperor’s voice activation of the bomb? There were so many parallels between the Emperor and the Doctor it was almost too sign posted.

    My boys didn’t think they cybermen were very scary, apart from a few jump moments near the start. I’m a bit tired of episodes where a whole army appears & gets destroyed in a few minutes. A few cybermen would have bern a lit scarier than the whole tomb imho.

    Off to put the boys in bed now. Can’t wait to hear what all you lot spotted

    #8593

    Did you all see the preview of the series finale which just played on BBC2?  *shakes fist* Well I might as well give up speculating since it just told you who Clara was…

    I would be very wary of jumping to that conclusion.

    #8594
    Timeloop @timeloop

    damn it i didnt see it

    #8595
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @whisht – this wasn’t exactly a trailer, more a minisode. It has a title and a writer’s credit. So it’s a bit tricky; trailer? Or an extra episode before next week’s finale?

    If you and @scaryb could say whether you’re going to watch it; as I said above, it’s written by S. Moffat, so if it gives anything away he doesn’t want, I’ll go to the foot of our stairs. 🙂

     

    #8596

    @chickenelly @bluesqueakpip There’s another trail – it is on the BBC site now and contains an apparent megaspoiler – which leads me to assume that it isn’t (Moff has said nothing goes up without his approval)

    #8597
    thommck @thommck

    Quickly forget to mention the bell jar full off birds similar to CH ep and a soldier used a chair as a weapon!

    #8598
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @chickenkelly              If its the prequel “She Said, He Said” – its on the BBC website and doesn’t say anything.

    POSSIBLY SPOILERY

    POSSIBLY SPOILERY

    Although given its on the official site, I don’t really think so….

    Curious to know where it was shot – if you were building a set to look like the inside of the Doctor’s memories, you might do worse…

    #8599
    Galactus @galactus

    @miapatrick

    And what will be the reaction across the universe when various species realise the doctor was trying to pull a ‘silence’ on them- making them forget he existed

    Ooh, I like that implication. I wonder whether, when the Doctor’s name is spoken on the fields of Trenzalore, the entire universe may remember who he is.

    #8601
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Just to clarify as it’s all quite confusing – The spoilery thing that was on BBC 2 was the advert (called prequel on the official website – though it’s not ‘He Said She Said’). All the official bumpf  is very spoilery this fortnight.

    #8602
    chickenelly @chickenelly

    @pedant, @bluesqueakpip & @thommck

    It was the trail I meant which came on just after the Star Trek thingummy.  It seemed to give quite a bit away, what with the voice over and all.

    However if the Moff says it doesn’t give anything away, I’m now speculating on why that should be instead.

    Don’t go near the telly for the next week!

    #8603

    @chickenelly Yep – think it is the same one – either it’s a lie, or its the macguffin we’ve been watching while the real story occurs just off to one side!

    #8605
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @galactus– good thought. Now we know the Cybermen don’t know about him, previously we only saw Oswin wipe him from the Daleks databases, which presumably gave him the idea. But we’ve been told now that he’s been erasing himself from history, and that this will leave a doctor shaped hole.

    Maybe they have already noticed this hole, and just want to put a name to the space…

    #8606
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Just nipping in to do a dance of dark Doctor joy. Gods Smithy’s just great at the tripping the dark fantastic isn’t he?

    Mr. Clever was indeed a rubblish title, even worse than the King of OK 🙂 But the needling unhinged vitriol of Cyber-Eleven – wow – give me more!

    Hearing the Ecclestone as well as the Tenant impersonation also gave me secret hope they’ll get Nine in the mix for the 50th yet.

    I agree with @whisht can we discuss the red prequel trailer and indeed all trailers on the spoilers thread please in the run up to the finale? Much appreciated.

    I now need a re-watch to spot all the interesting objects at Wibbley’s World of Wonders.

    Did anyone else wonder again about whether this is happening inside the Doctor’s head? Wibbley is his phrase after all, “wibbley wobbley timey wimey”, and he is a sort of Wibbley Wonka isn’t he (TIme Lord upgrade), so was Wibbley’s World his construct?

     

    #8607
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    w

    #8608
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Reposting from the Graun, which is a right moan-fest tonight:

    It was a good, fun, episode – and a salutary reminder that travelling with the Doctor isn’t safe. Even when he’s trying to take the kids for a day out, he ends up nearly getting them killed.

     

    Which was, I think, why the kids were there. The Doctor was a good and loving grandparent (and presumably parent) – but his granddaughter was safer in a post-apocalyptic wasteland than she was with him. He nearly wrecked little Amelia’s life and he did fail to rescue her baby until she was an adult. And now Angie and Artie, instead of being promptly taken out of danger, get left on a sofa to be kidnapped by Cybermen.

     

    The Doctor loves kids. He wants to protect them.  But he was the one who put them in danger.

    #8609
    Galactus @galactus

    @miapatrick I did wonder, when the Emperor made his speech about feeling sorry for the person that pressed the button that condemned a galaxy to death to defeat the Cybermen, whether he wasn’t sure who’d actually pressed that button and whether it was, in fact, the Doctor. The Doctor’s actions may be about to catch up with him.

    #8610
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @chickenelly I could not make anything out from “she said, he said”

    #8611
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @juniperfish

    I’m still going for ‘if this is happening inside the Doctor’s head, it’s recapping what’s gone wrong’. Simply because audiences loathe ‘it was all a dream’. Well, I certainly do. 😈

     

    #8612
    Anonymous @

    Hi all – had to watch the usual two times, picked up on these details:

    1) The two soldiers who lived through it all were remarkably similar to the thin-fat-gay-married-Anglican priests/soldiers of AGMGtW.

    2) When running through all the previous Doctor pictures in his mind, 1 – 10 went bam-bam-bam.  But then there was a pause, before 11’s picture displayed.  Important?  Some people here have theorised that we really don’t know how much time passed between 10 and 11.

    #8613
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip – yeah, what was that ‘take a nap’ thing all about?  Aren’t the Maitland kids a bit old to be taking naps?  And what a creepy place for them to sleep in — with the lights out.

    #8614
    chickenelly @chickenelly

    @timeloop

    Oh the ‘He Said She Said’ is fine, stay away from the BBC trail which will be playing on the main channels (as opposed to the red button).

     

    #8615
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Don’t forget to watch the BAFTAs tomorrow night. WHO treats in store.

    Don’t sue me if you see the TNOTD advert (before/during/after) though.

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