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Only just caught up with the true meaning of Su(santriad)tekh(nology)

How long would Sutekh be trapped in that time corridor?? How old was Ruby revealed to be in Boom?

Wasn’t there a big ruby in Pointy Thing of Mars?

Why was Sutekh so goddamn onery? Was he a foundling? Horus never loved me anyway.

PoM masterstroke were the many potential solutions, all thwarted until 4 deployed time… but Sutekh has a lifespan; he’s not ageless, can’t be the Oldest One. I’m sure Ashildr and The Doctor (in confession dial) or The Great Intelligence, waited longer. And I don’t think The Meep would get away with calling him Boss.

I doubt if everything is going to be tied up this season. Why exactly did 14 live on? As a distillation of his dark side between the 12th and final generation? Wasn’t the Hand Doctor the final receptacle of Post Time War woobieness? The Doctor most like The Loon: ‘never dying! Never dying! Never dying! Bwahahahaha!’

I love a good bwahahaha. The rest of Prisoner Cell Block H was a bit camp tho.

Sutekh might be another piece on the board deployed by the gameplayer.

Now… gameplayers? Chess? Fenric?

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@blenkinsopthebrave @thane16 @whohar

As I observed on the Chord page, Maestro’s post music nuclear winter was straight out of Pyramids of Mars. Fantastic story: for sheer sci fi chutzpah, design, humour and giant red syringes, beaten only by Robots of Death.

If anyone is binging 4, I recommend Ark, Genesis, Pyramids, Android Invasion (very underrated) & Seeds… I’m rewatching Season 14… of course apart from Robots, there’s Deadly Assassin and Talons; Season 15 has Fang Rock, Fendahl and Sunmakers, but some real clunkers too.

I bet you the 3 tribute is just someone being eaten by a chair.

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@blenkinsopthebrave @janetteb

hmmm. Some Michael taking there, perchance? Yes. Sutekh qualifies as emperor of death any day of the week. I have wondered if the Monks had something to do with the Osirans… all those big triangular things.

I admit the 3 tribute thing has me stumped… and filled with dread. Writers… Russ would want the best: Holmes, Boucher, Moffat. Must be Holmes for 3, therefor Autons or Carnival… this sounds like Carnival. No Alpha Centauri please. No primords either. Maybe Kate in an eyepatch.

Different tack… did anyone ever explain The Watcher from Logopolis? (the One Who Waits??) Why that form of regeneration? Looked like the reverse of a bigeneration to me. Could be Doctor Ruth in her astral kit?! The only other unobserved regeneration was 2 > 3… lots of whizzing around and oh dearie me. A very decrepit Troughton, working for the Galifrey gang was nearly turned into an Androgum… did that version of 2 eventually become Ruth??

We’ve seen the mugshot. That’s REG that is. Holmes kicked off the script for ‘The Ultimate Foe’ which seems to echo recent hyperbole. Unfortunately Pip and Jane finished that story off. Please, no megabyte modems…

Genesis Lynea had me excited (playing ‘Harriet’ on Saturday) but she’s apparently as real as Susan Twist. I thought ‘Genesis?’ What kind of name is that? Not quite Leon Ny Taiy but ‘Genesis’ speaks for itself. Lynea… anagram of Alyen???

The origin of The Doctor???

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<p style=”text-align: left;”>@janetteb</p>
You really don’t think The Babies get deported to Skaro once they rock up at DuPlushie World?

’I am your new Nanny. I have obtained new strollers for. You will obey me…’

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@blenkinsopthebrave @janetteb @whohar @thane16 @juniperfish

The Boss; The Oldest One; The One Who Waits.

I think we would be wrong to assume they are all one and the same.

Or that any of them are the ‘extra’ Doctor. This is would seem to be REG. I doubt if his earlier non canon nuwho appearances are significant. My guess is The Great Intelligence has influenced a (bi?) generation of the Doctor to become The Valeyard (where that leaves 14 I don’t know)

Now Gallifrey is deserted, or perhaps only inhabited by wild hairy Shobogans, The Valeyard has trapped The Doctor and (The Tardis) in the reactivated Matrix… or else hi-jacked The Library (complete with supersized Vashta Nerada) to create a game-based alternate reality that mirrors events, political issues, and people we recognise. Ruby is therefor the Doctor; S Triad, the tardis; Mrs Flood is River; Carla is Clara; Roger ap William… ‘big stick crazy hat’ could be Rassilon who utilised the dna of a human mutated by mire tech to create…??

Oh and the gold sparkly Loon nugget has been inserted in the gob of unscrupulous ‘Boss’ Max Capricorn. Much hilarity and atrocity ensued.

hmmm, as Sally Sparrow might say ‘it rather got away from me.’

Yes the Doctor DOES keep putting his foot in it! Good spot!

I have seen a site somewhere where Mrs Flood’s front door looks very tardis diary blue… but I suspect the image was manipulated.

As for Omega (I like Omega about as much as The Rani) he would seem to be the only Time Lord who might have survived the Cyber genocide… but… and I only know this by rumour you understand, having clamped my hands to my ears and sung lalalala loudly during t’floox… how exactly did Tecteun/Awsok and The Division survive? hmm? answer me that! says Bill Hartnell stroking his chin. Has someone been drinking this brandy?

 

 

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@devilishrobby

I actually said The Timeless Children might as well have been written in crayon… it seems pointless to observe the absorbaloff was more entertaining and believable.

@janetteb

I thought the glimpse in Rogue of a certain thesp who once worked with the actor who played 8 changed the narrative on the snow… and especially in relation to the final moments of Boom.

@krathoon

Personally, I thought they brought Mel back just to annoy me. If it was to do with the Rani they could have brought back Nichola Bryant, or the T Rex, either of which might be preferable.

The foundling theme might extend to incorporate the Rani if she were an incarnation of Tecteun. Same skill set and (lack of) ethics.

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@thane16

Re Church on Ruby Road… a bubble/AI generated universe mirroring (meta-ing and illustrating) the history of Who…

Carla. Clara.

Lulu(Bill)… lulubelle 3… Atom Heart MOTHER (ok maybe it’s just a stupid name) but… 3! 3 babbies. 3 cradles.

Chib’s Who moved to Sunday. Doctor 5 broadcast on  Mundays (and Tuesdays… have we had a Tuesday yet?)

Most of Please Please Me was recorded on a Monday.

Maestro refers to the carol of the bells and Ruby’s summoned snow as the power of The Oldest One. We saw Face of Boe expire in the end, but who waited for The Doctor in The Matrix at the end of the universe, then went off to do it all again?

And the end of the universe is where 12 went to discover what was under the bed.

 

Unrelated query… I assume Rogue’s magical triangle deposits him and the ickle birdies in different places or 15’s love interest would seem to have a rather pressing problem.

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@thane16

My theory is The (K)nightmare Child was an obscene Gallifreyan tech weapon named for The (very disillusioned) War Doctor by increasingly fascistic Time Lords because he was their Bismark. Also featuring Rassilon as The Could Have Been King. The rest of it was just maaad.

And brontosaurus’s were thin at one end, thick in the middle, and thin again at the other.

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@mudlark @juniperfish @janetteb @whohar @blenkinsopthebrave

Re the mysterious 3 Doctor tribute and the gaming pantheon, the hints about AI, alternate flawed realities and the rest…

would the crazy machine from Carnival of Monsters fit the bill??

As for Gallifrey… 15 did say to Ruby that the Loon’s TL genocide was universal in scope, didn’t he? It actually hunted down and murded the lot. And 15 can tell. Like 10. Unless he’s wrong, because 10 was wrong too.

TTC was so incoherent and riddled with superfluous and absurd ersatz Unobtainium grenades and Kryptonite caltrops, is it worth picking through it? People mock the Absorbaloff, honestly TTC might as well have been written in crayon.

So… was Gallifrey torched with the ‘Time Cybermen’??? Dunno. Who’d be a lowly Shobogan? Maybe RTD is happy not go there, like his first spell.

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@devilishrobby

Do you think Zchib had a very very bad photocopy of Cartmel 2.0?

Andrew Cartmel was deeply unhappy with the way The Timeless Children was done. The creative decision, not the plot device. So, did he know what was in Cartmel 2.0?? As the (almost) saviour of Classic Who, I can’t believe RTD didn’t seek his opinion. Moff and RTD’s arcs dovetailed reasonably well; I’m sure C2.0 was discussed in outline, maybe with Mathieson, Zchib and others.

Indeed Moff has said The Timeless Children was quite logical but he, like RTD, considers himself a custodian of Who. Don’t lose the sale! RTD has said Zchib is his good buddy. Not heard a lot of positive traffic in the other direction have we? And Jodie wasn’t going to dance for anyone else.

Was Zchib hamfisted in dealing with C2.0? Or did he just want to get it done and dusted? T’floox seems to have been more than a little Gottendammerung. Dunno, only seen the stills. And I hate Wagner.

 

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@janetteb

The Timelords are generally unsympathetically portrayed… brutal imperialists, dupes, and effete Pythonesque bureaucrats. Mind you the Shobogan’s of the Invasion of Time were equally ludicrous. Maybe Leela sorted them out.

The Doctor’s foster mum and dad from Listen would be the holy grail. But a light touch required. Still, could their respective relationships with the Shobogans be what defined The Doctor and The Loon?

What we don’t need to see are any more of Omega’s chicken headed mooks.

@snocita

One advantage of being old enough to remember ancient Who eras is you recognise patterns: the corporation’s reoccurring desire to make the show into a nice safe soap or other revenue/rating maxing format; the risk posed by poor writing; ludicrous monsters and ludicrous universe ending perils; and the kidult dilemma, how far is it safe to get behind the sofa?

Trope raiding is another constant theme. I also prefer sci fi references, but the modern show is committed to pseudo historicals. I’d like them to go the whole hog and treat the subject matter more seriously. It would be a thankless task.

So, there you are: one light hearted ep, keeping the costume designers happy, in a season of deliberately surreal scenarios warped by The Pantheon. But it added to the arc and the characters.

If you want to check out a truly bizarre and pointless historical, watch Black Orchid. Desperate show runner referencing Brideshead Revisited (Evelyn Waugh based costume smasheroo). 40 years old snd counting. The ultimate non sci fi fluff. It also had a rubbish plot designed to rib the show’s worst actor, prone to being hungover on set, before they wrote him out for good in the next ep.

Seriously, I know you joined the forum specifically to complain, and we’re all here to promote sensible discussion, but really, Bridgeton isn’t a problem; the Corporation (in this era Disney) may still be.

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@juniperfish

The relationship of the showrunners with The Timelords is weird. Can’t live with or without them. Let’s face it both RTD and Zchib thought they could do without. Moff seemed to enjoy having them around, like aged parents pottering around forever in a big crumbly house.

But even he kept them at arms’ length. After the magisterial perfection of War Games, they were pants weren’t they? I have feeling the Gallifreyan’s that Moff really liked were the Shobogans; farmers in an arid land who build big ramshackle barns. I dunno, did the ‘Death Particle’ wipe it out or was it a victim of t’floox? One day I will watch that sorry mess; straight jacketed in a secure facility maybe.

Was just the officer class hunted down, like an intergalactic Katyn massacre? Thereafter is Gallifrey an arcadian wilderness, languishing at the end of time, where wandering bands of Shobogans sing Leela with or without Eric’s riffing (see what I did there?) Just the place go hiking Rogue esquire I reckon.

Moff and RTD also differed into relation to the nature of the time war. Moff’s looked comparatively conventional, not a hand-mine in sight, whereas RTD’s was obviously more of a Big Bang/River’s Wedding barking brain blower.

I just wanted to see the (K)Nightmare Child…

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@fozzyb
you expressed an opinion as to how The Doctor should not behave… or how Doctor Who should not be written. It begged the question… how would you want this character, with all its history, to be presented? Kindly spell out what you would like to see. Bear in mind this series has been marked by two well publicised departures, and many people want to talk about this, even joining the forum apparently specifically to do this, while exhibiting little evidence that they’ve ever watched Who before.

However, put like that, it all sounds a bit worthy, so I zhushed it up. It’s like Roger Rabbit cuffed to Bob Hoskins. In my head anyway.

I’m not saying feeble Doc syndrome ain’t a problem. How many times did Peter Davison really need to surrender? But in comparison, Ncuti is almost The Timelord Invictus, if not A Good Man Off To War. Only sociopaths raised by religious fanatics think it’s a good idea to kill Hitler. As RTD and Moff both point out, this is not what you want. No more than Pertwee’s Venusian Aikido. Or Colin Baker’s acid bath wisecracks.

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@juniperfish

Yes… I enjoyed the Willy Wonka stuff.

re 1813 and Jane Austen… big Clara connection there! As long as Jane doesn’t turn out to be a scotsman with a huge ginger beard (Blackadder 3; Dick and Dictionary… but don’t quote me)

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@thane16

Well Ruby = Brendan… ish… that would make the foundling thing less of an imposed structure.

Brendan was the best thing Zchib did. I got quite excited. Then… meh.

8 eps? Who knows, maybe Parkinson’s Law may come into play and this will all turn out deliciously snappy and flavoursome. No more the labouring Utopia Trilogy or The Stolen (bell) End. Get it RIGHT Russ! The tedious Time War is over. And we’re talking yenormous wodkas my friend!

Mrs Flood though? No idea. (I think she’s pre Mel River)

We’re being played. Bring it on.

@fozzyb

Do you want GAAD HIMSELF to appear in a cloud of fart and then astral lightening the mooks? Or maybe rip their hearts out Dumb n Dumber stylee??? U bin watchin too much Marvel mate! Dat is bad fur ur brain. Eat more pulses. Chill.

Also… he has fallen in lust. Awwww! Have you only the emotional depth of a teaspoon, man?!!!

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@thane16

the first one could equally be 10! The only definite sequential ones are PD and CB. I have previously wondered whether Ruth was really pre 1… we never actually SAW Troughton become Pertwee…

But, if the GI is all the Doctor’s timeline, can it really be tidied away?

I just speculate that GI managed to hijack one of The Doctor’s regenerations. MJ looked as much like REG as Bradley and Hurndall looked like Hartnell. Of course The Loon messed up the narrative: he… they are a loon!

And AI has been mentioned more than once… are Ruby and Doc stuck in the Matrix?? Susan Twist/Triad therefor being a Matrix projection of Sexyidris?

Is Ruby like Brendan… a projection of The Doctor?

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@thane16

By Testimony I mean Lancashire Sass. Waiting to greet the corvid. She hangs out with another woman with attitude and a bad memory.

To tell the truth the 4th in the sequence looks more like ‘the other one’… not MJ.

Unless MJ = ‘the other’??? A distillation of dark??

Also… snowflakes??

What actually WAS the thing that apparently started in Victorian London… in the snow?

Mind you the faces all seem to have received some treatment. Bill and Colin came off well. Matt and Chris both seem to have had a root vegetable inserted somewhere. I was wondering about Pat but there he is just before Sylvester, and after… I imagine it’s supposed to be Paul but quite honestly that looks more than a little like the young Robert Holmes… And who is to say Sylvester is the last mug before the edit?

Also, does Rogue stop really when he sees all the incarnations… or was it pretty skinny man that stopped him short? I’m studying the sequence but really there’s no reason why 14 should be first.

 

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@thane16

There I was going on about faces from Morbius and I missed it! Duh.

Could be an AI adjusted Phillip Hinchcliffe? Nothing like the others. And indeed were it he, where are the others?

You’re being coy… so 2 obvious thesp candidates

Obviously the er… tube map is all over the doctor’s time stream. Who knows where intelligence will get you. It begs the question, could someone else reappear in its wake… someone who ‘awaits’ a return to Gallifrey? Last seen in Testimony.

But this particular actor does bear a strong resemblance.

Or… only a little less similar is another known incarnation… NOT to be found in a ‘barnyard’ if my memory of CB’s hammy bluster is correct.

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Sorry Mr Quill’s gas attack (with the black mouth make up) was of course NOT Web of Fear but Fury from the Deep.

Just so you know.

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I am amazed that a screenplay depicting mutual physical attraction should somehow be more objectionable than say…

A man with blacked out teeth committing weird psychic… if not gaseous (??!) rape (Web of Fear)

voodoo dolls marching spookily to ultrasound (Terror of the Autons) to commit murder

Extreme violence committed by conscienceless criminals at the behest of conscienceless wealth (Seeds of Doom)

a confused if not entirely deranged alien violently assaulting his friend (Twin Dilemma)

A lonely inadequate man finding love in the most extreme of circumstance (Love and Monsters)

The betrayed dilettante forced to recognise the real nature of the peculiar being he more or less brought into being and then coerced into marriage (The Husbands of River Song)

The aged intellectual who makes a clumsy and inappropriate pass at a vulnerable person (The Pilot)

Or anything committed to the screen by Zchib.

Not saying I didn’t enjoy some of those scenarios, though not all and nothing much by Zchib, but since when does violence, ridicule and manipulation become preferable to…

… ah! This is where I came in isn’t it?

 

 

 

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I can’t see why anyone should fulminate any more than at the same sex couples on Strictly. So, yes, they will steam and smoke.

Otherwise… The Family of Blood? Captain Jack by any other name? Aristo mayhem ala Fireplace Girl? Nice to see Doctor Ruth in the mug shot sequence… but no Camfield, Holmes, Harper… nor Brendan! Awww!

I think you would call that a romp. Obviously more character based… not every episode can have mind warping meta scifi history. I could have done with more phlegmatic aristos getting withered. ‘Dessicate and be done, sirrah! Damn your eyes!”

Is it me or did something happen with the script editing? Sudden oblique info dumps… you’re going… uh? what, who? I accept this but… I can’t give an example without rewatching, though I haven’t finished with Dot and Bubble yet. It moved quickly. Ruby and the Psychic Earrings were a bit telegraphed. Getting four weird clicky bird aliens to stand within the desired triangle seemed a bit of stretch.

so better than eps 1&2.

But! Only 2 more eps! I feel sold short. Cheers Disney!

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@scaryb @mudlark @janetteb

Hugging… I refer you again to Azimov’s ‘Elijah Bailey’ stories… especially the first two: ‘Caves of Steel’ and ‘The Naked Sun’. Both are relevant but especially ‘Sun’: the Spacer society has very very different ethics and expectations. Especially Solaria, the Idaho Panhandle of Space: no physical interaction except for the purposes of procreation.
Hence, ‘are you two in the same room??!’ (Urghh!)

Obviously NOT exactly the case in Finetime. But are Asimov’s Spacers racist? Azimov depicts a clash of cultures. Some of them are arch racists only lacking SS epaulets. Others are liberal and yet apparently bizarrely effectual. Well this is pre ‘70 sci fi, but good! The sequels were weaker. Or you might say the first books were prophetic; after that he needed the money.

Are ‘Earthers’ racist against Spacers?? They ignore them and (with the weird liberals help) colonise the Milky Way. The Spacer culture is dominated by enormous wealth and robots… more than a little like Finetime! They’re going nowhere.

However, back on Solaria, no!! No hugging allowed. Look at me funny and send you a shouty text! Unless you’re kids; hug if you must but only with the robots. And grow up! You’re three, you wimp!

Oh. And a weird depraved Solarian woman seduces the hero. Hmmm. Fan service.

Still quite a good book though…

RTD had loads going on here and much of it may be contradictory. But some comes from The Spacer series I’m sure.

Can I also say, never mind that Lindy is undoubtedly a privileged entitled ‘flake in need of at least a gentle shake, her witnessing, with disgusting audible enhancement, the demise of poor Bertie, has to be one if not two of the most disturbing things I have ever seen on Who. Sentient and indeed sentimental slabs? Yeah, cool. Old lady life draining vampire zombies? After lunch maybe. Homicidal spacesuits/cadaver perambulation devices… uh… that’s happened twice hasn’t it?? Silence in the Library? I admit I have never watched Oxygen again.

What would Mary say?

Seriously, the bugs ain’t slugs but wood lice, ain’t they? Vashta Nerada supersized? Or… did someone mention a tribute to 3? Are we in a Carnival of Monsters, miniaturised entertainment (toy-maker??) world?

Go run with that!

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@janetteb

It is interesting to have such an unsympathetic protagonist. Lindy was wonderfully horrible. This is new territory isn’t it? The closest previous example might be Love and Monsters, the hero of which was not unsympathetic exactly but conflicted and castigated for his peculiar choice of heavyside lover.

I liked it. Stefan Mohamed (Den of Geek) has problems Russ’s apparent joy at dismissing ungrounded narcissistic snowflakism as racist. He didn’t say that precisely. He liked the dynamic but begged the question ‘how do you represent or dramatise racism?’ His view is a non-white writer might do it better.

He has a point because I’m not sure that’s been done in Who. Russ is obviously more interested in social media, wealth, privilege, leisure flatulence, the  ridiculousness mystery of crypto wealth creation … and the dangers of AI. The less intelligent will always be threatened by the intellectually superior. What are you (still) there for? What is Finetime for? Can an AI program really make judgments about taste? I seem to remember Daleks and Cybermen having a spat about that…

So I have to assume Dot destroys the ‘flakes, not because they were all tasteless idiots but inefficient Perhaps it was given a better offer. By Stukey Sue??

The racism really is a bit irrelevant in this respect; it’s the social commentary and the sci-fi trope that Russ is keen to push. AI has cropped up twice now. He’s serious and rightly so. He writes good sci-fi.

Social media and its colonisation of the arts is not necessarily racist. The relationship with privilege can be disturbing. But there is also much san culottes action happening without anyone’s permission and gobbled up with relish.

But Russ’ racist commentary is there. Yes, the words voodoo and contamination spill from the mouths of surviving ‘flakes.

Perhaps Russ is saying, ‘racism is stupid and so is unreasoning loyalty to bankrupt authority.’ Bankrupt as in the MAGA or Brexit or any populist or religious nonsense you care to shake a stick at? Or  would those targets point to The Swamp or Yoorp or The Chaotic West?

Are either side of this divide necessarily racist? Well the thing does exist and it may fess up if it chooses but not necessarily. Nonetheless, I think I know what that Venn diagram looks like. Bob Marley would ask if it looks and sounds like a chicken. I’m not sure a bunch of dumb ‘flakes being rude does. They were all very white. And they were once privileged. Perhaps they survive the Wild Wood to invent The Lost Cause of Finetime?

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Interesting… the story was originally offered to Moff by RTD for series 6 but the necessary effects were deemed too expensive.

And Stefan Mohamed thinks that Russ shouldn’t write about racism! Because that ’practically perfect in every way’ episode Rosa rightly depended on granddad on the bus, and not righteous anger at the lynching of Emmett Till. So all is well with the world. Mind you the cunning deployment of Bradley could have been Zchib’s decision.

In that Ruby recognised Susan Twist but not from the Villengard ambulance, does that mean she DOES remember bits of 73 Yards? Tho that could be from Chord.

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@janetteb

September, Sunday, Munday, Tuesday… not really sure. Obviously it means something, or nothing. That is, it’s part of an (extensive) anti spoiler strategy. Make noise! Drown the detail.

No. Not all of it can have meaning.

But…

September 1963: ‘She Loves You’ released in the US. Partial Nuclear Test Ban Treaty signed… no more atmospheric tests. Upbeat! Common Sense! Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah!

September 2005: Israeli withdrawal from Gaza!

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@whohar

The Trinity seems to have been an attempt to keep both monotheists and neoplatonists on board. Otherwise it would be 2 if not 1. Add Mary (to butter up the egyptians) and you have 4… doesn’t sound good in Cantonese though.

2 brothers crop up a lot: Romulus and Remus, Hengist and Horsa, Hrothgar (Hamlet) and Helgi. It’s an indo european destiny trope. Man does incredibly significant thing while bro turns up his toes.

One is one and all alone.

Three would seem to be a Celtic thing… all over the Mabinogion. Arthur’s family in Geoffrey seem to be a deconstructed triad: 3 kings; holy, warrior, lover.

Mind you… 3 little pigs…

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@whohar

Rassilon, Omega and the Other is from the Cartmel Masterplan. Just giving canon examples of ‘triads’.

The problem is three is its own trope. It’s not one (creator) or two (sex); more elements invite redundancy. So there are many triads and there’s no reason why any should equate to another, apart from the act of story telling.

If Russ says Stukey Sue and Stukey Bill have three babbies, that’s significant. I would say Ashildr having triplets can’t be any kind of accident either. Three ijits in Zchib’s magnificent creation, The Fam? Yes that’s an accident. Or rather it got Zchib off the kiddie show Lady Doctor hook.

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@blenkinsopthebrave

The meta has it! 2005! Of course.

Actually, is this series shaping up a bit like The Long Game/Badwolf/Parting of the Ways? History distorted. People subsumed by the media. A big bad waiting in the wings…? What then takes the place of Dalek? S Twist? Mad Jack? Max Capricorn’s twinkly tooth?

But is the show itself, Ruby?

Is Zchib Jabba the Goblin King??

Carla is a (rather simple) anagram of Clara!

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@juniperfish

The Power of Three.

Ashildr could have lost one child in the Black Death, then literally ripped decades from her memory. Could be grief.

But there were Three cradles. Powerful number. Not invoked at a whim (unless you’re CS Lewis).

Rassilon, Omega and The Other?

The Doctor, The Loon… and who?

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@juniperfish

The power of three!

You have to tell a Celt something three times before it’s true. It’s TRUE!

I still think I would go for Oppenheimer, though I sadly admit I haven’t seen either. I am unique. And sad. But not really bothered. 3 hours is a bit much.

Did 15 say that? The ‘dot did dat dinni?’ 15 might be wrong. The Doctor can be wrong. Moon-Planet tho. Library of the Dead? Maybe the Tractators are super-sized Vashta Nerada??

Mrs Flood. River.

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Watched this late… I was away. Curiously, the view from my hotel window reminded me of The Sunmakers.

Slightly amazed that no one has mentioned Barbie The Movie. Yet. Or am I being so uncool you will have to mute me?

More seriously, this might reference Azimov, not just Caves of Steel but other short stories that examine the trap of tech. Must have been a big deal in the fifties. I’d love to watch a sensible adaption of an Elijah Bailey/Robot story.

Otherwise, the bugs look like Tractators from Frontios. I assume ‘dot’ let them in from the Wild Wood. The Butlerian Jihad can’t happen soon enough for Finetime… is it a sentient crypto currency?

No opinion yet about Susan Twist. Unless she is Stukey Sue. The Susan Twist thing must be a bid to mess up the spoilers. Out meta the obscure and oblique. But she is now recognised by Doc and Ruby. Yeah, Stukey Sue.

The last 3 eps have been powerful. You don’t often get three body-blows like that in a row. I doubt if Finetime’s ijits are anything to do with the babies. The underwriting of Babies and Chord was so odd; I still think those are the stories that will Russ will return to in his accustomed over-the-top illogical showstopper.

Slightly amazed at the undercurrent of (generally neophyte) comment denying the racism… ? Seriously, his facial hair?? Have we a hidden agenda from perfect prefects from the perfect American right? None of those Proud Boy people. Urgh. Though I quite expect to see Lewis Clarke Shaman reappear later with a horned helm and face paint.

Who played Lindy? She was brilliant. Best bit of backstabbing since Dorium Blue Face and the headless monks.

 

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@whohar

Stingray. Probably irrelevant, but ‘Sea of Oil’ 1965 included the immortal line ‘Hell, we weren’t trying to invade. We just wanted the oil.’

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@mudlark

Yes, dark skin and blue eyes are neither here nor there. Eurasian populations reveal Neanderthal ancestry. Other populations reveal interaction with Denisovans, for whom we have no distinguishing information apart from their DNA.

The question of why there is a 2-4% inheritance level is complicated. At some point somewhere this inheritance was certainly higher; so were the other hominid populations simply outbred, like the population replacement of mesolithic populations by neolithic in Britain, and their replacement in the 2nd millennium BC? Did it not happen often? Perhaps the inherited dna was not very advantageous. Or those who inherited were not all reproductively viable.

What do we know about Timelord dna? Apart from the fact that it’s a fictional construct? Within the fiction we know that timelords and humans are morphologically incredibly similar. No TNG prosthetics are ever necessary. Two hearts, and a respiratory bypass system (which doesn’t always function, or 4 wouldn’t need to deploy his handy straw in Robots of Death). Klingons apparently have multiple duplication of organs which are singular in humans.

River had human ancestry and regenerated at least twice. Alternatively, Vashtra very nearly blew 11’s cover. Otherwise The Doctor has twice had two known episodes of difficulty with the Tardis diagnostic screens, which each time apparently compounded the mystery he was trying to solve. Or is it rather that the Tardis diagnostics are… flawed? Or does the Doctor suspect there is a specific problem with the question he is asking? Human yes… but what else?

We have seen timelord dna twice rewritten by the Chameleon Arch and both times into human. Maybe it does other critters. But we’ve never seen that.

8 is half human on his mother’s side. Lots of people really don’t like that. Russ says no. And the Doctor lies. What else is he going to say?

Timelords have been created from a hybrid of Shobogans and an unknown race. Which one?

Cyber tech is programmed to convert humanity but readily adjusts to timelords… witness Mr Clever in Nightmare in Silver and the outcome of The Timeless Children.

Missy compared Clara to a poodle and 9 called Rose a dumb ape but these are two rebels rejecting their imperialist upbringing.

And apart from that petulant bout of PTSD, Doctor obviously likes us a bit. Or maybe there’s something else there?

And Splice is an odd name for a girl.

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@janetteb

‘IF you ‘create’ a replica of a person…’ as a Spartan might say.

‘ALL their thoughts and memories’? Well actually we used a bit of AI. All paid up. Just to give it that extra fizz. And the knowledge to turn on the cat filter. The kids think AI is so cool. Whereas actual oldies are just gonna embarrass themselves sooner or later.

Graham being a case in point.

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@whohar

Moffat’s knees… my own little theory; a record scratched worse than anything by the Loon.

The BBC had increasing issues/were reorganised to have issues with Moffat’s sexual politics/atheism/undiverse writing buddies, but mainly his treatment of The Great War anniversary and the need to sell DW to a streaming service. Series 9 & 10 were nobbled. He had a plan to go on 2020 but was out the door by 2016.

After Zchib’s failure to make a soap based Who anymore attractive than anything commissioned by Michael Grade, and the petulant sledgehammering of The Cartmel Plan, RTD may be trying to put it back together again. Maybe not.

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@mudlark @janetteb

River had two human parents (assuming Vashtra wasn’t covering for 11); the third strand of the triple helix is apparently a vortex generated mutation.

Human dna might look radically different when sampled at different points over a long time span. Cheddar Gorge Man seems to have been really quite dark with blue eyes. You don’t get that combo today. Do we think he was human?!! Of course.

So, what would say… a human/mire/‘x’ scan look like to a computer system that had never seen anything like that before?

 

 

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@pufferfish

really? Boom was in the C24th? I can’t remember 15’s exact words but he didn’t seem to think so.

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@janetteb

Has anyone ever measured the proportion of Doctor’s companions who were female? Obviously the numbers are overwhelming. That being the case it’s actually a bit pointless to start moaning about Bechdel Who.

But Moffat did seem to have a problem here… Doctor’s wife, Doctor’s mother in law, Doctor’s guardian angel… it isn’t enough to blame this on the curse of the Cartmel plan. Liz, Sarah Jane, Leela and Ace are popular simply because they had gumption; Leela and Liz so much so that they proved too difficult to write.

Ace, as one of Fenrics’s wolves, is closest to the nuwho companions.

Rose did something she shouldn’t with Tardis and became Badwolf girl before she was hurried off into a parallel universe. Martha was anti-Rose.

Donna was a forerunner of Amy and Clara; somehow intertwined with the Dalek’s reality bomb. The universe collapses about Amy for no very good reason that I could see, and the rather tortuous result was River. Clara was supremely abstract and I don’t think we’ve yet seen the final outcome of that.

Or they were simply friends defined by their sacrifices for the Doctor and/or the Doctor’s sacrifice for them?

Bill was another fighting companion and I have wondered whether she was originally written as more significant before Moffat was cut off at the knees. Or perhaps her transformation to a cyberman became more significant. Because it is. How to define humanity? Take it away.

I say nothing about The Fam.

I really don’t think RTD is playing with us by setting up Ruby as significant. The Doctor is humane. The Loon is a loon (I struggled with Missy’s reform but then it was aborted). If the Cartmel Plan is significant it’s not because the Doctor came to be through some plot twist, but because he… became. He grew. And the Loon did not. He really is a scratched record. Perhaps Ruby’s story will illustrate this.

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@blenkinsopthebrave

no crazier than any other theory.

Or did 15 recognise the woman who pointed? (Of course we don’t see anyone)

Also, 3,000 odd year old diagnosis of Ruby in Boom; if that is a subjective biological age for Ruby, why did abandoned Witchy Ruby turn up her toes in her eighties? Does she regenerate? So has she regenerated before?

Why did there have be only one Timeless Child? Is Ruby in ‘Brendan mode,’ a proto timelord, unexploited by the likes of Tecteun?

Quite honestly, if that doesn’t bear any relationship to Zchib’s narrative, I ain’t bothered.

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@cookgroom

Large parts of 73 yards do not bear logical analysis… part of what makes the story so scary. Of course there are issues with scary. The Hamlet test: the ghost ain’t supposed to make you titter; you are permitted to experience fridge logic, but this is my point. Reckon nobody knows…

re 10/14 (is that something to do with cb radio?)…

1. Ruby has never been introduced to him or Donna

2. We don’t actually know if Ruby’s London precedes or follows Donna Starbeast/Giggle London. Doctor Ham may not be here yet.

3. 10/14 still has his own Tardis doesn’t he? I bet Donna may have occasion to say ‘Oi long streak! Nerys says I’m looking peaky; take me somewhere with some rays. And wine.’ So, no, not sure Kate would know where he was.

4. He might be wearing a shimmer. As you do.

5. Finding 10/14 might well be Kate’s back-up plan, but then Witchy-woo spoke to her on the magic talking bone and she went off-grid to become a low carbon footprint spoon-wittler. Cos that seemed to be Mad Jack’s experience.

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@juniperfish

Yes I think we may revisit Mad Jack aka ‘big-stick crazy-hat’. My personal candidate for Emperor of Death.

RTD’s big challenge this season would seem to be making all the mad stuff add up. Watch out for red buttons, Artron energy and American Diners

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@juniperfish @whohar

Marti… yes I should know better. If you ask a lazy question, then immediately lazily qualify it, you maybe shouldn’t ask the dumb question.

The relatively mild criticism of that part of the story (not from me) was levelled, I believe, in context of the TERF wars. Marti and her trauma was considered ‘sprayed on’ to the story. I agree with Juniperfish; Russ couldn’t do much more given the audience and Disney. However, given that Witch Ruby makes people ‘disengage’ from Ruby Ruby, getting 73 yards away from Mad Jack might be a way of keeping him away from her also? Forever. I wonder if THAT idea, a more obvious threat to Ruby from Mad Jack, was discarded at some point?

To have this threat ‘hidden’ in the text is quite keeping with Jack’s proper (Norman) name. This is a man whose dirty little mind regards nuclear weapons as a logical improvement on Derek Small’s foil-wrapped cucumber.

Not sure why Ruby and presumably everyone else had to keep off the grass… at gun point??

And why 73 yards? This is close to the width of the Cardiff City pitch. Perhaps it commemorates the distance Yaya Toure (other brutally destructive/homicidal players are available) could leap studs up?
Otherwise, as Kate (and Google reveal) it is also 66.7 meters, which sounds more than a tad Book of Revelations. I referenced Killer Mummy phasing tech earlier in the discussion. Dunno what 66 seconds is in RELs.

Could we finally be about to find out who Gus is/was/will be??

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Roger ap Gwillam. Hrothgar son of Wilhelm. The reknowned spear from the helm of desire.

I think Donna would have something to say about that.

Some people have said ooh Trump! and others Farage (who does raise the hairs on the back of your neck) but the most obvious parallel looks like Kim. That puts us on the map.

Not everyone is liking the (very brief) Marti subplot. Indeed… what was she still doing there in the stadium? Well, she might have many reasons. But it might have worked better if she then precipitated ex PM Mad Jack’s very own personal Me Too hell. There was a lot in this episode already but RTD could have sorted that in 20 seconds.

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Glyngatwg… Glen something…

sub the initial and ultimate g for a… and you have alyn (alien?) gatwa??!

Old Ruby is apparently using BSL.. I saw a transcription somewhere on the web but can I get it back???

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@mudlark @juniperfish

apparently the name of the pub translates as ‘the dead wood.’ The actual pub also featured in Torchwood!

The full Big Bang 73 numerological analysis was outstanding, juniperfish.

I shall now rewatch to check out the name of the village

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@blenkinsopthebrave

Why does no one go to the police? That was when arrived UNIT wasn’t it? Which went well.

I did like the ‘can I pay with my phone?’ moment, when the audience all thought 73 meant 1973

Anyone checked out the name of the Welsh village for Thomasite Llareggyb meaning? I don’t have head for unlikely combination of consonants. And what was the pub called again? I did expect Nardole to turn up claiming he was a solitary reaper or something.

To tell the truth, this was closer to Midnight than say Blink or Fireplace Girl. The mystery lay in the mystery which was a mystery. Is Mad Jack another pantheon dweller and we’ll only see the working parts when the arc is resolved? Might be better if we were left to shiver while scratching our heads. Which shouldn’t really be possible.

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@thane16

Also… the time energy “factory” in ‘Angels Take Manhattan.’

Nothing wrong with these reminders. Interesting we should both think of (different) Toby Whithouse stories though.

Susan Twist would seem to be a thing. Question is what? Mrs Flood is back.

No. No idea what Russ is up to.

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Wow. It seems churlish to reference previous ideas from Who and elsewhere… but…

‘Turn Left’ obviously…

66.7 meters echoes the 66 seconds to ‘phase matter’ in ‘Mummy’ (thank you Perkins)

The ‘ghosts’ in ‘Beneath the Lake’

Inside #9 ‘The Twelve Days of Christine’?? Will have watch that again.

Ghost Story for Christmas 1977, was it ? ‘The Signalman.’

and the politics… ouch.

Top tier.

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@scaryb @juniperfish

Is there another race… that can regenerate?

What exactly do Mire ‘genetic sticking plasters’ do? When does healing become regeneration? What did it do when combined with the human dna of genius.

I don’t think ‘Splice’, as a name, can possibly be any kind of accident.

Has anyone come any closer to ‘the moon and the President’s Wife’? Of course (since the Invasion of Time) The Doctor IS President. And Dr Moon is the central processor for The Library, in which his wife is preserved/incarcerated.

Or that is a lie and The Loon really did know him when he was s little girl.

Or The Loon lied completely Exxilon City stylee.

Or The Loon is such a loon that truth and lies no longer has a meaning for him/her… er they.

I’m still going with The Loon is Max Capricorn’s tooth. It really does that!

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@juniperfish

I’m sure timelord dna is practically perfect in every way; consanguinity being the main issue for us apes.
But of course ‘it’s a kids show!’

Anyway, they were woven on a loom according to 10.

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