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    syzygy @replies

    Epistocracy is not a new idea. I remember Paul Keating & speech writers discussing John Stuart Mill & Plato at a university round table meet in the late ’80s. The idea was subsequently ditched. Theoretically Jason Brennan has been working on this for a long time.  Ideas like this were put forward in a text book I edited in 1996 which heralded the failure of Social Science as a subject containing the gamut of history studies; economics; legal studies;  geography etc. The civics book in 1999 introduced the theory better for years 8-10.

    Pip, it’s not viable because experts, happily dogmatic (& even more now as specialities quadruple+) will still be frustrated by politicians putative crowd-work.  Those who argue against epistocracy are actually well informed citizens (The Vulcans), ‘plainly’ informed citizens & politicians -the latter group rightly accused of compromise blocks. 🙂  Experts with sound political knowledge won’t get traction because telly finds them boring. Technical discussions of consequentialist theory is ratings manure. And Thane knew the discussion so the “do you know what you’re talking about?” was a tad unnecessary.  But it’s all fun & games this arguing, innit? 😉 Not to mention we had a terrific example of compromise block in Tesla’s Night of Terror….

    The social sciences hold that modern democracies include a non-instrumental element as significant as its elder brother.

    Attempting a top-down “I know & you don’t” isn’t workable. Dippng in & out of vastly competitive, presumed confused & obtuse legislation would produce haphazard results & stand-stills which Brennan & co. admit. Even in their own ‘areas’ experts disagree significantly (less in CC) so generating sensible practicalities is near impossible.

    It would go against parliamentary conventions & constitutions. And it would be difficult to work around the slight problem of microcosm politics. Or that these experts would have sufficient knowledge to  avoid the  oft-cited “damage” of current voters leading to spun-out budgets. Ultimately, experts wouldn’t like the consulting-wages & they’d argue over the physics of lighting & colour spectra so “doing their colours,” a la Mrs Hudson,  would cause stop-work.  😀

    The Syzygy.

    syzygy @replies

    Ooh, I knew Dr Tesla was a Doctor in ER!

    Golly gosh!

    Great episode, beautifully filmed, an almost old nemesis. Visnjic plays Tesla beautifully. As does Mohindra as the Sithra (sic) queen.


    No, but you do.

    Syzygy the Old

    syzygy @replies


    I’ve managed to wrest the Forum from The Younger who’s in argument mode. Awesome, I second @arbutus, the  Kraftwerk connection is solid & you’ve sold me. Brilliant.

    I loved this episode too. It has a ….different focus than previous episodes. To me, at least.

    Also @arbutus thank you for the lovely Lau. It’s inspirational & the beginning is beautiful.

    A’right I need to ensure young Syzygy doesn’t get laptop. He’s far too busy learning to… (sounds of wacking the fence accompanying The Thin White Duke, though metaphorically, with The White Duke ‘n’ all. Nods to @peacefrog. Awesome choices! Might take a week to listen to all of them. You’ve all been adding terrific music. Even our young lad here).

    syzygy @replies

    Trie to post in the Pub. But the innernet decided against it! No-one has said that people shouldn’t have oxygen now.  As said, the Doctor would give her O2 to anyone else first. The poor are oppressed & speeches to everyone are still necessary. One won’t change the oppression of the other. But it’s a common ideal to be humane -that we try to ameliorate issues by pointing out all our problems. And it’s kind to stand as ignoring is worse.

    When our government does nothing, when the rich do nothing, it’s not wrong to protest with or ‘for’ others but to  assure certain groups who are affected, ahead of time. The fireys are happy someone’s trying something (they’re stuck in between fires)

    And yup this post might disappear too. And it’s waaay too long. So, to music.

    syzygy @replies


    Did someone mention Thin White Duke? This is mum’s favourite -amongst (or ‘among’ we need a @pedant when we NEED one!) or one of her favourites!

    But I’m not sure which is best…..

    Syxygy the young one


    syzygy @replies


    I didn’t actually start it 🙂 I am 18, so maybe arguing is still a ‘thing?’

    The platitude -sacred belief issue is one quite common to those in certain areas of journalism, preaching etc. It tends to be used a lot when no-one is ‘arguing’ that a particular point is otherwise.

    No-one has said “poor” don’t have access to Oxygen Right Now. Or, in the West, clean water (though that will happen soon -to all of us -it’s certainly happening in NSW). But there is a load of media complaining that the “poor” couldn’t get to work that day even though 20 % of those, once exposed on Telly had payments from their exployers (TM) because they’d been infuriatingly late or worse, couldn’t get there. No-one’s arguing that’s a good thing -to be late or worse. But value arguments are sexy. That’s  a left over from your other argument -“how many times do we need to tell you we’ve voted Leave  -when you think we need to be told again  -when we can think for ourselves.”

    To be very brief so we can all move on. I think:

    if you don’t want people to speak for the poor & if you continually say people are speaking for the poor you really have to canvas these “poor” you refer to, because if they’re middle class now, & that’s often the case, you’re now one of ‘them’ & now you’re speaking for “them” or on behalf of them, which is problematic according to your scenario.

    It’s not really an “us or them argument. It’s about ORN for everyone.

    Did I mention it’s a fantasy show?  🙂

    Also if all the fire chiefs in Aus & all the people & most of the pollies wanted a ‘sit down’ but Morrison refused, there’s a feeling that protest might just help because despite all the “let’s sit down & talk” if the dudes won’t do that then all the petitions in all the world won’t change anything but protest just might -by the very self-funded retirees whose taxes paid for the rail in the first place but being self-funded, they still have to pay full price for rail tickets -& not a one complained about this. Again, sacred value yelling is boring to the media so they don’t report it. But there are a few Aussie bloggers & thankfully ABC radio which do.

    Unfortunately the very desployers who employ the “poor” are the self-same who contribute to bad climate change. The local private hospitals used to give out cordial in large ceramic containers with a glass every morning. Then it became water & a glass & now it’s 6 bottles of water per day then chucked out & not recycled. Soon, ORN will be water RN. Many people are protesting this & no doubt cleaners & cooks at these hospitals are late for work -except not. Not once because protests require 12-24 hours notice so people can make other plans which are no more expensive or lengthy because protests are part of the law. Stopping them or trying to ‘change’ them so they’re less effective is a massive boondoggle & also part of a tyrannical state. The “poor shouldn’t be told but should speak for themselves” is a wonderful get out of gaol free card for others isn’t it? What can one say in return? YOU protest? But that means they lose a job or pay. Or YOU write a petition or YOU find another way to work…

    The issue is almost never the technical ‘outcomes’ arrangement because it just aint sexy. These poor want the same thing -ORN or clean water. & most want it for everyone. So, let’s argue instead about outcomes & consequentialist behaviour…

    Mods I apologise for off topic except it’s still about ORN


    syzygy @replies

    @bluesqueakpip oops. yes, see, you did it again “does it make them any more important” with the platitudes. No-one is claiming they are more important, more significant or better able to argue.

    And yep, the poor sods who glued their hands to trains -apologised -& were fined*, making this a stronger sacred value platitude. It’s an illusion of a debate when the outcomes (ORN) is important & how to frame these outcomes. That’s where the energy ought to be directed.

    *that’s a story no-one wants to follow. Those issues aren’t followed up by The Guardian or by Murdoch Press initiates in this country, at least.

    Right, back to driving….

    syzygy @replies


    Yes, we’re  debating rights. Or rather you are. You’re talking about “rights & choices” when no-one has actually said they (the “poor”) don’t have any rights. You’re using sacred-value platitudes in order to build an argument no-one’s arguing about because no-one’s saying those values are wrong. The argument should be couched in how to go about it not, once again, whether or not ORN isn’t necessary or needed or a requirement.

    There endeth the debate, sorry, stuff to do! But fun anyway! Now to the next episode

    Syzygy the Young.

    syzygy @replies

    @peacefrog I think Mum would say “the sound was found as early as the 3rd century BC in…Crete.” Maybe. But we all love The Dead. And it resonates 🙂

    syzygy @replies

    We’re not both against Oxygen Right Now. Most people want it affordably. It’s not as if a “they” exists who shouldn’t have it (though water’s a massive problem & that’s a ‘not us Right Now argument’). Nor should ORN be discussed via them & they, but as an ‘us’.

    Most are willing to understand people should be paid to ensure there’s Oxygen RN even though
    disseminating Oxygen is difficult or technical. To cast the debate about whether self -funded retirees have the right to protest about Oxygen RN is a compromise block attitude leading to a discussion about limitations of government & whether everyone really deserves it & how dare people protest who have paid tax all their life & who’ll fund every single thing they’ll ever need & the ORN of many others.

    This is turning it into a sacred -value platitude argument & it often includes discussions about to what extent we must permit protests if the groups affected by this action are going to lose out in some “big” way.

    This then leads to more value debates about whether we should ignore the rights of poor people when ORN is more important even though no-one is claiming ORN is a bad thing or that our values are so very different. And even when the very few glued their hands to trains, apologised, & were sentenced to prison, no-one spoke about this as loudly as the “he yelled at us because he couldn’t get to work” story because it’s easier to hide behind a veil of platitudes. You see it again in the “we voted 3 times for B*e*it & now what do you want?” argument which obfuscates the technical nature of the discussion about how the outcomes are going to be framed. Compromise Block attitudes are sexy because they’re not technical.

    So, yup, we should make speeches in a fantasy show because it’s emotional to do so & not cold or institutional. We have similar values so prompting viewers to consider how the outcomes are going to be framed in this fantasy world is a decent way to start talking. I enjoyed it because I imagined that if I were stuck there it would be hard to focus on one group; it could lead to knowing only a little about a person like Benni before he died. It seemed horrifying because it felt real: the emotions – if not the science -which didn’t stop my engagement in the ORN problem.

    Syzygy the Young.

    syzygy @replies

    I think, please, that we need some mods to deal with the code that often crops up in people’s posts. I have NO idea why all of that appeared so apols for the masses of punctuation that appeared there and wasted space. To Blue:


    Keep protesting. But don’t forget the science textbooks.

    You’re saying the “poor” couldn’t get to work but soon there will be no more work for the poor to get to. Once the poor are taxed higher; once Brexit & its calamitous consequences are fully met; once the corporates are slugged with “Big New Taxes” (something Tony Abbott our former PM used to repeat a lot) and so on. Some of the so-called rich earn less than 100K per annum. Not pounds but Aussie dollars.

    The corporate rich aren’t,  probably, the people who are showing up to protest. Their lives are a treat, by comparison. Protest will affect groups of people in all sorts of situations. It’s dangerous and wasteful to protest in any other way. Also, you’re comparing some protestors, people who are self funded retirees, to a vainglorious woman from a completely different century. Ironically, it was January 15, 1797 that Louis xvi was found guilty of undermining the First French Republic.

    I should add, those who preach don’t always listen.

    Keep arguing but don’t forget the history text books. 🙂

    @galaxymage I actually loved it! It’s hard to find a voice who agrees. Usually it’s common for people to say “hey, I agree with you that it was awful…confusing….more focus on the companions” etc. But I thought it was a lot better than “it’s not so bad.” Not really a ringing endorsement, that, but I can certainly see the difficulties that the writers are facing. It’s a complex show with a complex agenda.

    Syzygy the Young (one).

    syzygy @replies


    <i>Keep protesting. But don’t forget the science textbooks.</i>

    <span style=”display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: #ffffff; color: #333333; font-family: Georgia,’Times New Roman’,’Bitstream Charter’,Times,serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: inherit; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;”>You’re saying the “poor” couldn’t get to work. S<span style=”display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: #ffffff; color: #333333; font-family: Georgia,’Times New Roman’,’Bitstream Charter’,Times,serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: inherit; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;”>oon there’ll be no work for them to get to. <span style=”display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: #ffffff; color: #333333; font-family: Georgia,’Times New Roman’,’Bitstream Charter’,Times,serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: inherit; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;”> Some of the so-called rich earn <span style=”display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: #ffffff; color: #333333; font-family: Georgia,’Times New Roman’,’Bitstream Charter’,Times,serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: inherit; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;”>less than $100 000 per annum (<span style=”display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: #ffffff; color: #333333; font-family: Georgia,’Times New Roman’,’Bitstream Charter’,Times,serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: inherit; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;”>not pounds, Aus dolllars). Either way they’re not the “rich.”</span></span></span></span></span>

    You’re comparing some protestors – people who are self funded retirees to a vainglorious woman from a completely different period. <span style=”display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: #ffffff; color: #333333; font-family: Georgia,’Times New Roman’,’Bitstream Charter’,Times,serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: inherit; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;”>Also, those who preach don’t always listen.</span>

    Keep arguing but don’t forget the history text books. 🙂

    Syzygy the Young (one).

    syzygy @replies

    @phaseshift @miapatrick

    I feel you are in attack mode?

    I think a mod can be above that & attempt to be decent. It wasn’t decent, imo.

    @peacefrog is a newbie. Maybe you’re judging him/them/her on one post when all his other posts have been genuine & interesting.

    Once again I reiterate that this is a Good Place. The snark can leave now. It’s been a decent interval.

    Syzygy (old Puro).

    syzygy @replies


    You are a wonderful frog. Genuine, clever & some music I haven’t thought of in ages. Welcome to you. Unless I already did that! in which case, welcome again 😀

    Love a bit of the AlanPP me.

    @whisht I assume the next anthem will be from dat place. OK, let me put on my father’s booming, Czech flavoured, stentorian ‘voice:’  🙂 “this awful mob, the places wid the screaming peoples, the long haired bums, the greasy looking girlz & toilets. Where. Were. Toilets? Nooh, they looked gaunt, maybe d’ drugs, all liquor & much sex meant they didn’t eat anything, nooh? No toilets always worries me, dcera, it always wid vorry me. And vere was  airconditioning? And vot cars vre doze?”  In the end, in his ’80s I gave him a vinyl of Hendrix to play on his 50 year old hi fi & he adored it!

    Ok, so I’ll  add it. And I do miss Dad. Despite his suspicion of large people singing music he couldn’t comprehend, his own jazz, all self taught, was spectacularly good  Particularly on the accordion. People often put it down but it’s a tremendously versatile piece of equipment. He taught me it was a free reed aerophone. It’s easy to transpose & it worked equally for marches,  gloomy choons, the saddest love songs & the songs about…, women, sons &, uh, songs. Bless ‘im. Ve had some good times…

    Well, I’m rambling this morning. Having not actually made it to bed….


    syzygy @replies

    OK, we’re goin’ slightly “off.”

    I had the recording of this ages ago, never thought it would be on Youtube. Hah, the in’nernet. They needed a few extra female vocalists.  So, given the other discussion on t’thread: ole!


    syzygy @replies

    @bluesqueakpip @miapatrick

    I felt it was preaching to the converted, that the only convertible people watching, given the way it was managed, were the fairly young, who can’t do anything yet…

    The thousands of protesters were young like me (18). We CAN do something now. A programme like that dares us to. No-one believes -because I was there -& so were insta mates in NSW, ACT & VIC – that the poor couldn’t get to work in Australia. Protesting meant doing so outside large corporate palaces where salary earners (not wage earners) were ignoring problems. Where the Legacy media created issues of arson where there were none. Creating issues of “foolish fires” when the cost of back burning stopped the surplus from going “ahead.”

    Believe me, it meant something to a lot of us. And to the new yr 12 students who will turn 18 during their final year. They drive, they work 20 hours a week, they study, they play sport. We’re OUT THERE and we’re ANGRY. We also know the significance of harnessing this catastrophe & never letting the timid win.

    Why is ‘preach’ so bad? Is it the domain of the Baptist or the Priest? If not, can’t we use “spoke?” It spoke.

    Syzygy the Young.

    syzygy @replies


    Hi you! Happy new year. I did, yes. I couldn’t recall what they were called. I was thinking werewolves or forelocks 🙂

    syzygy @replies

    Hi doods!

    One fun lecture down and bakery to go (long story).  So, I loved it. But Mum cried because our gen has to remove all your mistakes. I saw that in the young mechanic: confident, but scared -when hiding silently from the herd of predators -As kids we’re told to be silent.

    Like @arbutus I felt it contained  waay too much stuff? but then I wondered if it has to, because if not, when are the most people going to subscribe to those ideas?

    Random things I found very interesting

    tranquility as an idea that’s fake. Fake meditation etc..

    Fakeacation (and it’s a lot like Lucy in Dracula) looking like an expensive sports stadium. And male sports as a bastion of violence against women. And the whole anti-gun idea in Who.

    A girl named Bella who hates her name & lacks confidence (Twilight).

    The Little Shop (& the one of Horrors  🙂  )

    Hopper virus which Scrabbles as ‘pore’ or ‘prop.’ And aren’t our parliamentarians props? Nightly News shows unfiltered fear-based sound bytes

    The Doctor talks. That’s what our MPs (in the States DEMS or REPS) do. Action is the ‘change.’

    Russia -the American election including bots & youtube causing an unbalanced inversion

    Love between Benni & his partner (no marriage necessary) but shoot me because of the pain (Kane doing that).

    Kane  -Cain.

    The Doctor breathing in the oxygen of a violent male Alpha. Oxygen is blood. Blood is fertility. Blood burns.

    In the end all of these stories are uncomfortable for us to watch.  If they rouse emotion, good.

    Syzygy the Younger

    syzygy @replies


    attained an external herd drive


    if all of the world is a political speech to you, 

    No, but the political exists in the polis & every one of us is a part of this.

    Except in Africa, parts of Europe & South Africa where a child who isn’t white is worth less than a privileged white American child. National Anthems are political methods of “hijacking” the politics of pretense where a country’s nationalism creates a border between the so called fake “great country” & the real, individual people which populate the planet (my alliteration’s getting out of hand).

    Maybe a march and some articles

    Enough to please you?  Maybe so the “maybe” march doesn’t do anything. Doesn’t change, radically, the nature of things. Because if it’s the U.S. you’re writing from, then it hasn’t done enough, has it.

    As for preaching, generally some individuals who use that word, are unfortunately belligerent enough to warrant the message preaching provides.

    As an Australian seeing cattle shot (before they burned alive) from the back of an escaping truck, the messages in Orphan 55 effected a range of emotions in our early academic classes for 18 -year- olds. The very first Doctor Who programmes always infiltrated our better selves when we most needed it.

    There’s a time for serious discussion of abuse, violence & climate change & it’s not the nightly news. That’s indiscriminate in its reach & so must be discriminating in its framing of material.. However, using an anthem during sports games is better than backing it with massive deaths in Iraq & in the U.S. military. Big costs. Big body counts. Big infringements of liberty. The Big stupid.

    Now, compared with 1963, Big messages are necessary. Why? Because we’re inured to stupidity. We’re surrounded by it; our perspective & logic’s dulled & our capacity for acknowledging astonishment is so high we’re required to watch programmes which effectively “chuck the kitchen sink at us.” Had we paid sufficient attention when it mattered,  the messages needn’t be preaching.

    Our activism via church is abandoned, so its up to well loved programmes to responsibly recognise how we need to change. And do it LOUD.

     I hope the upcoming episodes of Dr Who are more in the vain of the first two episodes. 

    Well, quite, vanity is the problem.

    Syzygy the Ol’

    The young’s coming…..




    syzygy @replies

    I noticed that when the Doctor said “deep breath” in Babbage’s house, her hand was grabbed by Ada.


    I see that, as much as the recording by the Doctor for the flying instructions (ECAM -personal -to -Ryan -if it was an airbus?), weren’t a retread, more a homage?

    I’ll check for more.

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    So, is this a Tranquility Base -thingy? I thought Midnight was set on a Tranquility Base? Could be completely wrong. So far no-one has mentioned this (because either my memory is wormy & I don’t have a clue, or any connection exists only in my mind).

    Anyway, sorry about the troll reaction. In future, I will mind them as I would an orphan habitation -or a dreg. Best to close one’s eyes, let ’em yell or kick & then carry on; breathing normally.


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    his episode just lost me and my wife as fans. Soooooo tired of political correctness being preached to me.

    Fucking hell what utter bullshit. You’re still fans. That’s why you’re here. Also so you can complain about actual MANNERS. You’re new here too? I don’t think they take requests. Most members tend to the Left. Well, no, not really.

    And you can’t argue against manners without getting shirty about my swearing because then you’d be preaching. See how it works, now?

    PC tick

    Old School tick

    Complicated tick

    unattractive tick

    lousy tick

    crap tick

    pre-Moffat who is stupid tick

    You’ve met all criteria of a troll. Have a nice day.

    @peacefrog totally right.

    I’m 52. Have NO idea why I’m writing like a pre-schooler but I honestly, can’t ever stand the “oh, I’m throwing all my toys in the bin because I hate Doctor Who now. Wa wa.”

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by  syzygy. Reason: screwed the name up. They couldn't be bothered with the whole spelling. Says a lot
    syzygy @replies


    You’re probably not wrong. The ‘web’ is a multifaceted place which brings all sorts of things. That’s the positive. The negative is that the ‘web’ is multifaceted place which brings all sorts of things.

    The different webs are generally ‘acceptable.’ There’s where all  our ‘stuff’ is kept -credit details, logins. The other web is plain vile. I’m sure you can imagine the worst things -sex slavery etc. Should never write ‘etc’ after the word ‘slavery’ as if it’s just another concept.

    The other unhinged area is conspiracy theories and environmental fallings- down. The character ‘O’ is a good description of someone collecting information & then trying to live off grid where the wackos can’t get you. He was describing how governments outsource technology but have no real clue to whom they’re outsourcing. People are looking at water, or the lack of it, & how to sell it to the highest bidder.

    That, & people still paying top dollar to be on land right near the water, but the land eroding as we blink at our 5 buck coffee (coffee’s cheap in Sydney: big demand but not here. It’s watery, bland, & tasteless. Just so you don’t miss Brisbane too much).  🙁

    For the next generation after Thane’s it’s going to be a really difficult -& very different -world.

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    No worries, Nerys, this wasn’t about you, or about anyone disliking or feeling something. It was a thought, mainly to do with something else I should’ve been clearer about.  I do have a history, I must admit, of  worrying about the ‘internet.’ My main concern was with how clear Yaz was regarding her emotional state. And how people don’t often ‘hear’ that person who says very little. That was also related to something we all discussed (a few of us) in the Pub.

    Internet: a specific case, recently in our fires, where a person, suspected of arson, quickly cleared, was nearly killed by youtube comments as others ‘found’ out who she was. People said: “oh sure, I knew this about her. But I never said.” Many people pile on. Then she’s acquitted. A case of mistaken identity. It’s as simple as that. But not to her.

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    Agreed. It’s not phallic. I have absolutely no idea why that happened !

    To the rest of the gang. I’ve mentioned before,  about 3 years ago, that the internet’s great. Except when people start using terms that others copy. It echoes.

    Two years ago: new Doctor. Only now, we have one person ‘admitting’ “oh, actually, it’s flat. No bonkerising & it disappointed” & that’s followed by a whole lot of others suddenly writing something very similar. But these same people never stated this at the time! Too respectful of a forum? Felt like you didn’t want to be the one who admitted they didn’t like the new Tardis/the Doctor’s outfit? I’ve no problem people disliking things, but why wait ’til someone else admits it? No one’s going to run at the barrel & cause an argument over a small thing.

    On an unrelated topic the Tardis produces the sonic. Whittaker has never followed how previous iterations do things. She’s on record with this. This is a technology age. The Tardis stores such technology & sends digital & ‘classic’ information to the newly inspired sonic.  But fair do if it grates on other viewers. I found Tennant’s snogging highly irritating & Eccleston’s smile a tad over-done.

    But I worry when on another Forum a poster claims the episode isn’t emotional.  It seems odd others suddenly jump on that. And it’s multiplied.  You don’t want to mention this on your own. You wait & then you decide. You decide to mirror a comment that someone else (you respect) has used & it causes an implosion, a “yes,  me too {ahem}.”

    I find it strange. And yes, I’m the new grumpy. You need to have someone who’s ‘allowed’ to be providing no attacks are lodged.   😈

    We seem to have lost @pedant & others already.  And I understand people were under the impression this was a grumpier guy getting nasty when it was a grumpy guy feeling under pressure, personally. That grumpy guy came to my side in 2016 so now I’m doing the same. I’m going to stand here doing that because it’s decent. Just that. I’m not trying to blame someone, or beat someone. It’s kind. And it’s the best one can do (the Doctor).

    I might hang in the music area waiting for my other pal. I saw another R.I.P & often in January. Who knows, that could be why I feel a tad alone. I need to say what I feel.  These deaths are coming quicker & I’m marooned in an open ocean. I also feel that this Doctor is terrific. It could be that I feel protective of her.  She’s a woman. She’s brilliant at what she does. In this role, particularly.

    But I notice Yaz is basically screaming in between all the running & the bow ties. She’s saying “help.”  If people claim it’s lacking in the fantastical-Moffat period; or it’s heavy; cold, even, without punch;  it could lead to a stifling of the writer’s opportunities. Because now they need an ’emotional’ dialogue with the obvious “I’m scared, but I’m not saying anything.” Do we need to wait before we say “hey, Yaz’s falling apart & we didn’t do anything because she never said.” Sometimes an absence of dialogue is as significant as its other, louder partner. It’s not cold, it’s the opposite. It creeps up, from the side, from the corner of your eye; it’s never said.

    Also, Beth, where art thou?

    Syzygy the very old.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  syzygy. Reason: masses of code as usual
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    Them other brains -the newbies!  And @mudlark too.

    I’m re- watching Who -the 3rd run now – as a desperate way to avoid comments on the thread to do with the… Dead One (I aint looking, no spoilers: I’m up to episode 3).

    Syzygy the Old

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    maybe I’ve been sleeping through some episodes,

    I think probably so. 😉


    It is perhaps significant that the Master’s words evoked a flash of visual memory for the Doctor, suggesting some kind of embedded, perhaps racial memory…

    Agreed. I think as @blenkinsopthebrave suggested that there’s a deep seated memory, hidden from successive regenerations, but embedded in a way no other alien/UNIT/person could ‘unlock.’ Even the memory causes a reactive pain, enough, perhaps, that the TL is ‘virtually’ forced to “not think about it.” Something the Doctor has caused others to do or strongly suggested others do -whether with the Face Huggers or the ‘thing in the corner of your eye.’

    @nerys and others. I’m seriously worried about this meme being chucked about the place -partly because I  disagree but also because it takes just one person (grant you a person seemingly well respected)to say “it leaves me cold.”

    To a friend, I spoke pretty honestly here. I said amongst many other things ‘why do people feel like this?’ We have Yaz filled with bounce & enthusiasm who then falls apart -in a subtle way. Her tears at the ‘hut’ & her conversation with others as well as her family spoke of a deep well of need, fear, longing -and love. I think Yaz grew the most in this 2 parter. Sure, it lacked the warmth we usually have at Christmas but I think it moved away from that, set its heart on the young things & speaking of someone with plenty of young things, they really loved it.

    Still, just an opinion, but I can see where you’re coming from. I think it was very different. But the Doctor? She blew me away. I felt she’d been given a very wide accumulation of emotions and intellect to demonstrate & not since Mat Smith, did I see that in 120 minutes.

    Syzygy the Old.

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    that’s @mensabrains above. Clearly @rob my morning beverage isn’t as strong by half



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    Good morning & welcome to the …brains! Holy schmeck, my ol’ brain is a hurting now. @rob I prepared my beverage before attempting to read the thoroughly wonderful posts. Happy NY to you & good to see you out back (or front, or transactionally eternal, no yesterdays, todays, tomorrows, all time pre-existent…!)

    @vervain @mensabrain.  Welcome to you! You might like to visit the Sofa & share how/why/when you stumbled onto the series as a child, or recently. We hope you have a wonderful time here.

    Yup, I thought the Kasaavin could be cloister apparitions. The drum sound from the Saxon era used a slightly different rhythmic pattern, I thought?


    The question remains, though, whether this is part of what the Time Lords have always believed about their origins, or whether it is part of a lie which undermines their very sense of identity, and I’m inclined to think the latter.

    Yes! I failed to test that element: sure, the Child could be harnessed in such a way but to what extent is that a known origin story for the TLs or is it part of a still larger Lie as you’ve stated.

    @mensabrain Indeed, that’s a convincing argument. I recall The Satan Pit where the so-called Big Evil claimed to be “before Time” & thus the Tardis interface couldn’t translate the language

    @vervain I love it!

    there are… three recognised consequences of (or a least reactions to) the ritual – inspiration, running … madness. Whatever their reaction it In effect galvanises the Timelord….

    Further, you’re suggesting the Schism effects the TL;  distils it, but like any distillation there’s chemical ‘junk’ or refuse/waste. The refuse must go somewhere or be ‘some-thing.

    …When Rassilon and the Timelords started out…

    The “when” and “started” is key. What came before? Indeed they used Time as play. After all, the TL Victorious as described by Adelaide in TennantDoc was unpleasant, sowing the seeds of his own psychic discord. This leads to the greatest quest of all, perhaps not ‘what’ or ‘why’ but ‘me?’ And the words “run, you clever boy & remember me” and “am I a good man?”

    @bluesqueakpip yes, where are the people? Gone? Hidden?

    @syzygy the Old (feeling old today, that’s for sure!)

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    I agree on the mind-wipe. My son, didn’t. However, Lovelace saw some truly shattering images & despite her obvious curiosity & later work with Babbage, I would think that exposing her to the Doctor’s world, though briefly, could change Lovelace’s time line. She’s made a considered decision to have Lovelace’s life play out without the Doctor’s assistance or involvement.

    Nonetheless, she is controlling another -the very thing the Doctor does not like occurring to her. Her answers to the ‘fam’s’ questions (fams tend to know a lot & love you anyway) come across as irritated: “OK, whaddaya want to know?”

    The Doctor also knows her travel companions sometimes have catastrophic experiences. Perhaps another reason why the Doctor wipes Lovelace’s mind: her very real concept of a world on fire;  Armageddon.

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    @blenkinsopthebrave @miapatrick

    Yes, this is going in a good direction…. An existential “shattering” which corrupts the very basis of what the Doctor has chosen to be: so that he/she is not really a Doctor... But as you say, something to do with the vortex & the child who is timeless, also empty, who is buried deep in nightmares?

    What if the Child is effectively physically harnessed to all Time Lords  -their very ability to be TLs contingent upon the role of the Child to exist across all dimensions & eternally?

    A slave, perhaps. The Doctor who saves the children of Gallifrey discovers her ability coexists only with the imprisonment of the Timeless Child.

    I also like a termination programme whereupon at a certain age TLs must deliver their remaining regenerations to the Child which causes the latter to re-breed uniquely intelligent, but possibly depraved TLs.

    Then:  the idea of the Dalek’s extermination code & how this fits with our history in Russia, with pogroms, in the Ukraine, Germany, the Khmer Rouge etc

    Syzygy the Old 🙂

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    as you were. No ‘r’ in Kasaavin.

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    so others have this I think but akrasia is Kasaarvin. No great help as it means to act against one’s will. Like incontinence.  Julian Jay Savarin (word find) was a sci-fi writer.


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    @galaxymage  I meant to add to your complex (and wonderful) theories that in my re-watch the Master says “before you die” or “in your last moments I want you to know that everything you think you know is a lie.”

    So, before killing her, he was ready to give her a hint and then “puff.” But being a TL he plans for the possibility he doesn’t survive. That shows a realistic approach even Missy didn’t have. She was confident when she stopped the planes;  even making a deal with the daleks in the Magician’s Apprentice 2 parter with Capaldi (his series 2).

    (Syzygy the younger).

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    @blenkinsopthebrave up there, apologies.

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    It’s the Doctor, on his own, with other humans (River). It’s Ashildr who is Mire and human. The dynamic of the Doctor with Clara is still complex, enough. However, you might be right  suggesting something deeper. That there’s a ‘thing’ (that’s my word, I’m sticking to it!) the Doctor is responsible for/doesn’t know about/a myth he fears and the Timeless Child ?  ?

    During the whole Rassilion era in the Tennant years, there was the ……something else ….child. Mum reckons it’s the Nightmare Child or/and the Empty Child... soooo…

    @Blenksinsopthebrave  @bluesqueakpip @galaxymage -welcome to you, the new person! Great theories and bonkerising.  I was very worried about that too: when the Master said: “stay dead this time.” There’s something right there, isn’t there? In the corner of your eye? It’s unpleasant. It’s like when Doctor 11 said to Amy “do you realise your life makes no sense?”

    So it’s buried deep, Mr Blenk?  So it could be the Nightmare Child/Empty Child* with its army of Neverweres.  So, they, the TLs,  never were what they said they were.

    I know it was the panadora’s box of nasty weapons.  The Nightmare Child and the Timeless Child is a similar sounding item: a self-destroying weapon. They made it and buried it. But the Master knows it***…and is stuck. Any chance that this new group of baddies in Spyfall, whilst exiling people/Ada or Yas/ into the neurones were actually chucking people into a prison not made by just these baddies but the Time Lord’s too.

    it’s doubtful -the last bit. I get that the Master was imprisoned and calling out for the Doctor, and the episode’s baddies had their revenge on him. But they were beyond “your universe” and we take this form to “mock you.”

    If it was Moffat I’d be prickled with excitement. I still am….but yep. Not sure.

    *A Timeless Child has ‘no’ time and is thus empty. If it’s buried deep then it’s a Nightmare (child). The Doctor has a history of nightmares in Listen. Also he asks: “What do you do if you’re a creature who is never ever seen or known because their gift is HIDING? Well, what do you DO?” He laughs. But on the blackboard he sees: LISTEN.

    You can connect the dots without needing more specific content. Also, the Tennant era had some Chibnall episodes. He saw some, wrote others and to bring up the Timeless Child again could be related to Tennant’s description of weapons such as the Army/the Empty Child etc etc.

    *** @galaxymage This is a complex Master. He wants her dead except he also wants to write down a sort of will, should he, the Master, die first. Something he knows the Doctor would find out…which is a lie of great magnitude. He also knows the Doctor could die finding out. He knows the Doctor is a fixer: a doctor. The Master likes to control everything but now he knows the TLs are worse. At least he’s honest about it!

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    @mudlark @bluesqueakpip

    Yes, excellent observations & critique. The Master’s “distress is almost palpable.” He isn’t a one stop- shop villain.  The wild & mad is evident the more you look, & Dahwan’s pacing is beautiful: “You got me.”  The camera waits, for a beat. And then another. The up close photography doesn’t seem showy. Neither is the plot diminished. It’s like time expands with the reveal.

    I’m with you on the “slightly out of focus.” At the same time, mum’s laptop skipped focus. I had to restart it & yup, it certainly seems like Dahwan was out of immediate sight line & out of focus in scenes. I haven’t re-watched it but I’m loving the bonkers theorising, everyone.

    @missrori I don’t follow the “cop out” of the hybrid? I think that was ‘sorted.’ Yeah, @nerys Mum was mentioning Listen. In that ep Orson is Danny’s descendent? When Dan says “family stuff,” yet he’s an orphan I think he’s lying. Moffat’s different to Chibnall. I preferred Moffat’s “pay attention” type of writing so the “family stuff” could be a lie? His next of kin; not at the funeral; not known to Clara, collects his toy soldier. However, I’m probably wrong!

    @missrori The impression I get is that the hybrid focuses our attention on the relationships between the Doctor, Clara & Ashildr, who outlives her family watching everyone die until she meets the Doctor at the end of the universe. The Doctor fled from the myth (the algorithm) which he created. Ashildr was demonstrably difficult. Mire and human. Clara too, was a ‘hybrid:’ dead yet living between her heart beats. The TL Doctor in that triangle (& triangles are everywhere in science, myth, worship, love, sex) has human reactions, a human wife in River,  human companions  -during the Tennant years there was a lot of snogging 🙂 Even 12 replies to Clara when she says “I didn’t think of you as my boyfriend,” something like “I never said it was your mistake.” Anyway, hat’s my take on the Hybrid 😉

    @bluesqueakpip I think what you’re saying here is great.

    I think this may well be a post Missy incarnation. When the Master talks about the buzz that killing gives him…the look in his eyes is completely haunted… He may also be referring to the Timeless Child reveal….Deliberately designed as a psychopathic killer…

    Outstanding. think that there’s been a lot of Time Swinging (TM) but we meet the Master chronologically? It’s good that way because in the Moffat era we had a lot of confusing time jumps as well as the Doctor stuck in a Timeless ‘apparition’ Machine (TAM)  for a billion years. Having one character chronologically ordered adds balance -at least to me! I need it to be less confusing, occasionally  😀

    Son of the Syzygy.

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    Yes, one could say that there’s a lack of emotional resonance with yet another “let’s go to Gallifrey.” But I don’t see it that way. The resonance was created by two ‘resonating’ out of time Time Lords. The recording by the Master & the look on the Doctor’s face was beautifully portrayed. I felt the Master’s pain. I felt the Doctor’s reaction. As if having smashed him way thru to Gallifrey, having saved it, she realises it’s happening again: not “fear me, I killed them all” but both “the Master’s killed them all & perhaps he’s right to. Unless, I, the Doctor, am the problem.”

    Is the Timeless Child the Big Bang of Gallifrey and Kasterborous?

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    @miapatrick. Once again: Loved what you wrote.

    How could he take a bunch of humans calling themselves a master race seriously?

    I found Whittaker’s performance here brilliant. When the Master makes her kneel. When she asks “what do you want?” Chills. Her pacing was superlative & the direction of both parts was beautifully done though a few edit problems were noticeable as @pedant suggested.

    And Yaz’ terror within the neural pathways at the beginning of Part 1 and her subsequent fears & tears in the “outback” were very real to me too @spider. Her concern that they could invade the Tardis tells me she might just say “enough’s enough.”

    @mudlark Well done you! I have to admit I had no idea who they were. Yes, I really wrote that. I knew Babbage (which gives me limited points!).

    The score was tip-top too.

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    @miapatrick. Amazing really. I agree: loads of clues -even the unhinged quality, combined with “it’s very interesting but inconsistencies…” was loud and clear! Didn’t even think that far in…or off….or when…! Love what you wrote here:

    And finally, he fooled her into a fake friendship because they were friends.


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    I’m not loving the new you, actually. Not at all. I thought, you know “friendly place.”

    What the heck’s happened?


    I think there was some genuine confusion about the Wicked West of the West-type of thing. From what I read?

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    Jolly awesome! Loved O. Had absolutely no idea O was He! Even with the flying building. And then “in the seconds  before you die, everything you think you know is a lie. Got you. Finally.”

    When we met Fake O I loved the slightly unhinged quality he had: mad scientist. Then the “lucky in love” to Yaz was slightly off.

    Rubbing hands with glee at part 2.

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    Oh mods. Triple apologies. I actually thought I was on The Sofa!

    I’ll  hobble t’way! ……

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    Golly & heck & up with it all! We have some mods back!

    I’m seeing in my Netflix in box what looks like Dracula with 2 nuns? Is this the great Dracula of which you speak?

    I ask only because of the blobs of blood which looked especially suspicious -in a 16th movie of the Twilight Saga-type of thing – during the credits. I really didn’t want any Twilight drama!

    Back from NSW. 20 kms from where we were it reached 51 degrees in the shade. Double plus golly.

    Aussies are amazing: “yeah, mate, we’re gonna lie on some blow up beds in the middle of another mate’s dam. We got raw sausages which will cook automatically. Hopefully we’ll see you tomorrow, if we make it. We probly will.”

    @blenkinsopthebrave @janetteb no doubt you’ll recall the lilting tones of a “slow down time” way of speaking. As dry as the cinders & kindling around them.

    Tough in the face of actual hell. Never have I ever seen anything so horrifying. I saw racing fire, horses running for their lives, cattle being shot, whole towns I used to visit since the age of 5 are just gone. Some in a night. 300 full on properties in under 24 hours. Klaxons driven by fire fighters down streets at 3 am saying “go, now. You have 15 minutes.” They might, during  the worst of seasons, serve for 7 days but haven’t stepped down for 3 solid weeks. And they’re volunteers.

    Anyway, back to the fun and games. I haven’t seen Who yet, even. I completely forgot about it!


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    But the other bit, it’s “and we can do it together.

    Lovely The Buff. So, good. We haven’t watched anything yet. After our evening meal on Christmas ‘eve (Czechs do this on the 24th so the 25th is a very lazy day) I went straight to bed. So hot & humid the jelly was melting.


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    I think we need to try, all of us, to be better people. This is a frustrating issue, not the least of which is that persons are debating on the same side, I think it’s the manner of communication as well as non-specific vocabulary. The latter tends to sharpen the viewpoints & possibly render division almost non-existent? I think it’s a matter of a better explanation, imo.


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    Ah yes Toby.

    But I think this luverly scene fits round about now. Don’t YOU??


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    Niice. Sounds a lot like Patrick Doyle’s thing even though this is 400 years old!

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    I’m really sorry if it sounded like I thought all uncomfortable feelings are racist. Above, in my post, I was trying to simplify things but I probably wasn’t using the right words. And you’re right, it’s not a game.

    when uncomfortable people come together they multiply into those who are angry & …don’t separate fact/fiction.

    Yes I was wrong there. I should’ve said that some uncomfortable people multiply into angry people and that some of those who mix with others say “I want to do something” like banning the burka etc.  I should’ve said this correctly: not all uncomfortable people become radicalised into conservatism which becomes xenophobia. But quite a few do?

    Thank you Whisht.

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    So, for some meditation. Someone said, here’s looking at you Mr @blenkinsopthebraveLeit motif?

    I will now admit for everyone this sad fact: I always thought The Man who Came to Dinner was actually (oh gawd) the same as “guess who’s coming to dinner.”

    So when people said “we’re watching The Man Who ….” ” I’d nod enthusiastically & be a little clueless. I have never seen The Man Who Came to Dinner.

    Oh boy. Years of my life passed by in ignorance. So, back to the other point. Look over here where I’m not blushing in embarrassment! Did someone (ahem) say Leitmotifssz?



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