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  • #78634
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    @nerys

    Malcolm Tucker and The Thick of It was revolutionary here. And Peter owned that hostility and vulnerability… which it seemed Moffat deliberately airlifted into Who. Not so much swearing.

    Just had/having an online argument with a Big Finish fan for whom Moff is antichrist. Truly Who is broad church. But not for Chib maybe.

    #78632
    ps1l0v3y0u @replies

    @nerys

    It seemed to be very much about Peter being a fan, his devotion to the classic show… and adjusting to overwhelming public recognition.

    What he had to say about The Thick of It and Armando Iannucci using improv was interesting, because it seems to me a lot of that spilled over into 12. But then, to judge from what we saw of the read-throughs during Moff’s tenure, and his general relaxed treatment of his thespians, this was surely no accident.
    And, let us not forget, the Mondasian Cybermen were Capaldi’s rec.

    #78629
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    @nerys

    I looked up black turnstones because I’d never heard the ‘ruddy’ prefix. They’re eastern Pacific I think: so never seen one.
    London has a large population of Raptors now: Peregrines, kestrels, and a sparrowhawk made a kill in the garden last year. You now often see Buzzards and Red Kites out of town.
    Best spot this year was a Ring Ouzel making its way from the med to the north.

    #78624
    ps1l0v3y0u @replies

    @nerys

    we are unfamiliar with the black turnstone here, and so neglect to name the Eurasian/atlantic species ‘Ruddy.’ The former slipways from pier… a mile off the town… are sheltered from the breeze and people so that’s a favoured roost. They are very cute and partial to crumbs.

    #78621
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    @dentarthurdent

    I daresay I reached for the M word too soon. But then you look at Meta and think uh-uh. It’s rage bait I know but surely, if you want to understand the ridiculous reaction to post Chib Who, it’s there.

    Have we really moved on from the “Liz Shaw is a scientist/give us a screamer” dichotomy? (Ooh long word)

    The Moment is something else and also, through Badwolf, a resolution of the Time War. That only makes the case for Billiedoc stronger.

    Maxil/6 IS difficult. Like urghhh??

    But 12’s face is specifically there to save Ashildr. Why? Well, fortunately, the Doctor also still speaks baby… and then you wonder why he suddenly started talking about mothers.

    Is there ‘A Plan’ and will The Corp permit it? Or did Moff write all those jokey ‘did that look familar?/that’s a bit weird’ sections to wind The Corpmen up? And why did Chris then deliberately and specifically trash Gallifrey/regeneration/doc 1?

    And why is it about RTD (apart from the ratings) that scares the people on Meta so much? They DO seem to be quite M.

     

    Oystercatchers are like clowns of the avian world. Often see a few at Barnes Wetland Centre. At Arundel and Amberley I have seen Sea Eagles… released a few years ago on the Isle of Wight and they now roam the south coast. They are enormous, not quite light aircraft but unmistakable. When I went to Arundel in March, it was only Buzzards being mobbed by Rooks.

    Now, if you want to see Turnstones in April, try the end of Southend Pier.

    #78617
    ps1l0v3y0u @replies

    @dentarthurdent

    Camp: a heightened level of artifice, affectation and exaggeration. So Cassandra plays on the audience’s assumed (and evidenced) attraction to David/Billie. Whilst very much dressing as lamb.

    Who has always flirted with humour and camp… possibly something the show runners had to accept from Hartnell’s mangling of some of his lines, and the ridiculousness of many of the monsters.

    I was making more of a general point about possible plot lines: two docs with a connection; maybe good doc/bad doc; what’s in the history? You know my predilections. And predictions.

    If that puts the bed the frankly misogynistic ‘phsoar! They can’t make Billie the Doctor, she’s Rose!’ tendency, I’m happy.

    But. If.

    #78614
    ps1l0v3y0u @replies

    @nerys @whohar @janetteb

    the anniversary is there to keep the show in the eye-line.

    it is about Billie/David which was always on the cards, surely?

    New Earth has Billie/David possessed by Cassandra. Hmmm. Camp.

    it’s one or two fingers yer face for the average online Who presence who doesn’t like women Doctors/RTD/or indeed the entire show. Ever. Though they ensure us they do. Especially the daleks.

    I think it’s a good sign!

    How’s Piers Wenger doing?

     

     

    #78608
    ps1l0v3y0u @replies

    @janetteb

    Gina Rinehart sounds ‘interesting’. Nice family.

    Just lost a court case hasn’t she? I saw the headline this am, strange synchronicity… unless you also saw the headline.

    Yes, you would think the New Earth thing might be kick-starting something about David and Billie, the Christmas special, or the shape of Who to come. I must brace myself for the torrent of Billie and RTD online hate which must surely follow.

    #78606
    ps1l0v3y0u @replies

    @dentarthurdent

    I’m VERY happy Orban’s gone.

    I’m afraid… and or realistic… that Magyar got in on the basis of delivering affordability. But there’s war in The Gulf now…

    Perhaps some of europe’s would be populists are sniffing the caffeine and thinking errr… I dunno tho. But Putin is 82% democratic. There will be another Russian election in a few years and the odds are he’ll still be 82% democratic. The chaotic west (Xi’s phrase not mine) will have how many elections in that time?

    Just got to be lucky/unlucky a few times.

    #78604
    ps1l0v3y0u @replies

    @dentarthurdent

    The Orban news IS good. But… Magyar used to be a supporter of his, and we don’t really KNOW what he’ll do with his huge majority and popular vote. At least any voices claiming a fix seem to be muted.

    I’m afraid that’s NOT the end of European Popularism.

    #78590
    ps1l0v3y0u @replies

    Joy To The World: appendix.

    Looking again at the progress of the Star Seed, Joy IS on record as saying she needs a room further back in time. Even so, Joy is still an accident. The Silurian clearly intended The Doctor to get the Star Seed, NOT Joy. Was that was always the intention? Because we have seen, the Silurian was chosen deliberately to get access to the ‘right’ room. So, was The Doctor a known risk to be eliminated? Star Seed couriers do not seem to have a good life expectancy. Nonetheless, why did the Star Seed need multiple couriers?

    ’Joy to the World’, like the rest of the Disney reboot, was interesting but not all that coherent, maybe rushed?

    In any case, the Star Seed may not have been due to go off in 3BC, though we know it did. Or something stellar may be convenient. Maybe it didn’t matter exactly when, just NOT too late, whenever too late was.

    ‘Flesh will rise’… so, Villengard is NOT curating the nativity, cos that REALLY doesn’t sound like Moff or RTD.

    And Joy becomes organic warp drive at the end: an organic Star Seed Elevator. Is that what ‘flesh will rise’ means? That’s obviously what we’re supposed to think.

    I observe that Moffat deliberately seeds numerous narratives as he goes along, for himself perhaps, or for those yet to come, if they happen to fancy the look of them. Some may be abandoned… but ARE they? Surely he’s not coming back… or IS he? If not you would think it a lot of it is loosely planned – but HOW?

    RTD2, whether you like it not… and it’s quite difficult to like it all… DOES seem in sympathy with Moff. Think of The Toymaker. ‘Well THAT’S all right then’ is the acerbic summation of the fate of each of Moff’s companions. The Fam and Dan may not need a mention because they revert to normality and are given support groups as opposed to existentially challenging new realities. BUT The Toymaker does greet The Flux like it’s something off the sole of his shoe.

    You don’t want to tread stuff into the DW carpet.

    7-2-1-4… has anyone yet suggested these represent ‘key’ incarnations of The Doctor?
    The Gods of Ragnarok?

    The Mindrobber?

    The ‘Heresy’ of The First and The Original.

    The Fendahleen? Or The Watcher??

    Or is it just RTD’s PIN number?

    #78583
    ps1l0v3y0u @replies

    @dentarthurdent @janetteb

    Joy to the World.

    Looks like Moff ‘gets’ Christmas Who. Chib wasn’t allowed (or maybe he didn’t fancy it). You would think RTD finds it a tedious time of year: the decorations are tacky, the tv is rubbish, people eat too much, the snow is fake and people insist on laying hospitality on you whether you want it or not.

    Now Moff…

    1. Scrooge & childhood/lost love

    2. Narnia & life and death & family

    3. More Victoriana & Travers/Lewis/Nesbitt/Conan Doyle/Henry James (Ghost Story for Christmas);

    4. Christmas dinner, meet the relatives & church &… well resurrection? (isn’t that Easter? ‘Time of the Doctor’ got away from him)

    5. Christmas iconography – Santa & sidekicks, christmas hits & family again;

    6. The Big Question… how do exes spend their christmases? Also more dumb scifi & heist blockbusters;

    7. Superhero films/Two men and a Baby, & loss;

    8. The Christmas Truce. Resolution and continuation.

    So lots of theme and literary nouse, most pleasing to my eyes, ears and brain, but no wonder other people got twitchy, wanting classic monsters. And A Man. The barking of dogs.

    This time, RTD obviously didn’t fancy two Xmas specials in a row. Nonetheless, considering the erm ‘resolution’ of season 2, he must have suggested some of the plot elements. It would nice if Moff got another gig, tho I’m not counting on it. Nonetheless, there are elements of continuity that suggest he might – I’ll explain later.

    No matter; what does ‘Joy’ bring? Hmmm. Lonely desperate people trapped in strange hotels: family illustrated by absence. The resolution is the ‘star seed’ which becomes the holy star. What then of ‘flesh will rise’? Honestly? Dunno. Someone must become incarnate or be resurrected. But this is the dastardly Villengard corporation! Somehow, I doubt even RTD would want them to have orchestrated the nativity. Trev’s communication implant leads The Doctor and Joy to the star seed as it’s about to germinate, having previously been planted in the stomach of a Theropod in the Cretaceous.

    Question… why didn’t the Silurian manager go straight to The Cretaceous? Was the seed meant to go off in 66,002,024 AD or thereabouts? Instead of 3BC. But then Joy decides she wants to go to a tree-house in The Cretaceous… why? Well, Joy is an accident. Was the Manager trailing a coat for The Doctor and therefor chose a door at random? Was he actually meant to take the Star Seed to Middle Earth (hope you noticed he walked past the door to Bag End?)

    Silly. Or very dark. Because Joy does seem to have a death wish. Did that come from Moff or RTD? The Doctor’s cruelty to Joy was worthy of 7 and Ace.

    The teleport/warp speed thing at the end puzzled me, but it’s presumably a built-in feature. Of course those dastardly V people never wanted to blow up the world! Not yet anyway, they just wanted make someone incarnate like they said. No, not Jesus. So who?

    Villengard, V’linx, V’indicator (if that counts), REG’s face in Rogue’s scan… the Valeyard. Btw did you notice, the people possessed by the Star Seed have Harmony Shoal eyes? Anita is hired by The Time Hotel and she does what The Boss says.

    Villengard and Harmony Shoals SEEM to be Moff’s inventions, unless they were always part of a ‘hypothetical’ Cartmel 2.0 plan. I think Moff might want to revisit those toys.

    The progression of Star Seed carrier from weirdo to Joy is peculiar: presumably only Trev could legitimately approach The Manager. How does The Doctor get the security code? That was technobabble that were; know it anywhere. Or Moff had some advanced maths in mind. Or it’s a Time Lord/timey-wimey thing.

    The Orient Express and Everest pleased my eye, anyway.

    #78579
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    @janetteb @dentarthurdent

    I suppose the ‘New Unit’ is the official RTD2 version of Torchwood. And I didn’t really watch Torchwood. Is it heresy to say you can have too much Barrowman?

    The genesis of the post 1970’s UNIT is interesting because, under RTD1, the Sontaran 2 parter, and the Planet of Death, they’re just a bunch of mooks (and Malcolm). There was a time when we were comfortable laughing at a bunch of squaddies. No more.

    The current incarnation with Kate is started by Moff and then resurrected by Chib in ‘Power’… but that does seem to have been seeded by the RTD2 handover… unless he simply ran with it, because it was written in such a rush??

    I’m sorry, it’s an awful mess, a greater backslapping laugh free grave for dialogue than The Fam. Plus fearful technobabble. And the V’linx. The V’linx must be a link to the greater arc. Which means it (and UNIT) won’t go away in a hurry. Oh dear.

    Must watch ‘Joy’ again. Like most Moff, replete with great ideas.

    #78570
    ps1l0v3y0u @replies

    @janetteb

    What IS that possum about? Can you imagine? ‘I thought they were my friends…. But they’re ALL DEADDD!’

    Where is The Doctor? I noted the recent flurry of reports along the lines of ‘No-one wants the Job!!!’ Is that rather that no-one has been approached/auditioned because the position has already been filled???! You know who I mean.

    No! It MUST mean it’s all going down the pan and no one wants to be associated with Russ. I mean obviously!

    Another extraordinarily unserious post asked for candidates for the 16th Doctor because ‘Billie would be ridiculouse’ (sic… unless… was that actually a two brain cell insult? nahahaha!)

    From the 13th doc AI snogging pics (unsolicited I hasten to add… and don’t ask) through the amnesiac lll-disguised homophobic/gender critical slagging off of RTD, and now the blatant trashing of the idea of a second (or third) woman Doctor, it is grim out there in cyberspace.

    Memo to self: must avoid cyberspace.

    Could do with more good news, certainly.

    #78565
    ps1l0v3y0u @replies

    @janetteb

    re noises. Different continents. It’s the repetitive/dumbly self satisfied aspect of the cyber aspect that raises the blood pressure I suppose, but how can you really annoyed at possums? Awww.

    Locally, we have fun with foxes. There are some seriously fat ones in Kew Gardens and they want your egg sandwich NOW.

    I did hope I had been VERY good and we might get the glory that must be Fury From the Deep, but I’ll settle for Katrina and the airlock, if just to compare with Tasha Yar for pointless exits. What a waste of an interesting companion! Criminal really.

    #78563
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    @blenkinsopthebrave

    Can’t say I was a huge fan of JNT, but there is a argument that he kept the show going for longer than might have been the case. And he did then nearly save it through the agency of Andrew Cartmel.

    RTD WAS the show’s saviour 2 decades ago. I’m sure Chris Chibnall has a middle name too.

    As, I expect, do Michael Grade and Piers Wenger.

    JNT wasn’t to blame for the genre decaying effect of Star Wars, and current dog chasing squirrels noises of the internet do not herald the glorious return of The Daleks but the slow strangulation of the show.

    #78554
    ps1l0v3y0u @replies

    @winston

    congratulations!

    #78548
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    @angleonashton

    some eps and entire stories have gone. Film was expensive in the past and the bean counters didn’t seem to think twice before recording over it.

    It was a different world. BBC I player has everything extant except (bizarrely) the first ever story… which is obviously important but (honestly) not particularly sparkling. The Daleks is a great starting point.

    Bear in mind in 1963/4/5 no-one had any idea thst the show would last… and then it was reinvented! Hence the issue with continuity.

    #78546
    ps1l0v3y0u @replies

    @angleonashton

    Wilf is great. As is Donna’s interaction with her mum. Loved part 1. Part 2 dragged on.

    Harold Saxon divides Whovians, especially those who adore Roger Delgado, but I think John Sim’s foul and irredeemable Master is wonderful. Especially his burger-van-lady ‘special’ burger. And ‘I LIKE you! I bet you’d taste great!’ The theme also crops up in a later ep IMHO. Spoilers.

    Best of all is the entire Master Race sequence. Chutzpah and Awe.

    #78545
    ps1l0v3y0u @replies

    @angleonashton

    This was the usual eye-rollingly crazy RTD season closer… but a great season. I found the whole Osterhagen Key/exploding diamond/Davros in the cellar thing faintly ridiculous I’m afraid… that’s before we got to The Tardis towing Earth home. The metacrisis on the other hand was hilarious.

    The ‘failed’ regeneration… The Doctor loses his hand in The Christmas Invasion and Captain Jack recovered it in order to track The Doctor down… now, it must have been on The Tardis the whole time that The Master turned it into a paradox machine wasn’t it? I can’t remember. Does that qualify as a plot-hole?

    Anyway 10 has vanity issues, so he siphoned off his excess regeneration energy into The Hand, and remained 10, or 11, 12… depending how you count. Effectively he regenerated as himself. You need to watch Waters of Mars to understand 10’s self inflicted problem.

    #78541
    ps1l0v3y0u @replies

    @angleonashton

    Online… BBC Sounds does have audio Dr Who on ‘4 extra’… if you can get it. You may need to register. It might mean declaring a TV licence; in the UK, live broadcast is free to air; not sure about streaming, cos I’m in the UK. Or you may find audio books on libraries, then rip to mp3 for your phone? I haven’t checked You Tube but I’d be amazed if you couldn’t find something there. Might be rather a lucky dip.

    The thing with Who is it’s laden with continuity: you might either call that problematic, or rich and heady, like the world-building of Tolkien.

    So, the best way might be to make a note of your favourite stories, villains and monsters in nu who and then investigate them in classic: so the Nestene Conciousness in ‘Rose’ and ‘The Pandorica Opens’ references ‘Spearhead From Space,’ and ‘Terror of The Autons’: all great stories.
    Or, if you’re also interested in the current series, an investigation of The Mara stories is definitely worth it. Unless there’s another complete reboot coming up, they ought to feature soon; and the original stories were excellent, about the only thing that saved that particular era of Classic Who.

    The ‘Earth Societies’ of Robots of Death, Caves of Androzani, Voyage of the Damned and Doctor Widow and Wardrobe also seem related, rich and rewarding.

    #78540
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    @blenkinsopthebrave

    I was quite excited by The Colourised War Games. Such an important story canonically, but 10 eps (250mins) was a bit long: the mad charging about, scenery chewing and interminable sonic screwdriver action, tedious. Nonetheless, the contraction to 90mins seemed too drastic. Two 1hr or 75 min films (The War Games and The Time Lords) might have worked better.

    But… is the chief Time Lord played by Bernard Horsfall, none other than Goth? Where does 2 and Jamie’s (future) adventures with Androgums fit in? Was there an (unseen) bigeneration? If ‘War Chief’ can be said to translate as Raja… was that The Rani?

    #78528
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    @nerys @janetteb

    My bf was/is a huge Bab 5 fan. And I preferred DS9. Fair to say B5 gave late DS9 it’s raison detre… forgive the font. B5 gave Trek the excuse to be dark… and NOT gunboat politics.

    Lots to grind your teeth at tho… I mean DS9 and not just the Ferengi episodes. The cast was mostly (but not entirely like) as many Patrick Stewarts as you can fit on the screen. Sorry TNG.

    But I still can’t judge 5.

    #78526
    ps1l0v3y0u @replies

    @angleonashton

    Nu Who and Classic Who both went through highs and troughs. People carp about occasional Doctor lite eps, shipping and bad taste in the 9-10 era but it was consistently good. The end of seasons were mad. 11 & 12 showcased some amazing writing and performances but occasional quite indifferent eps too. I struggle with 13; a missed opportunity.

    Classic is going to be an investment in time; there’s a lot and they’re long seasons. Also the production values are really quite different. The best seasons? Season 5-7 (docs 2 & 3… a lot of 2 is missing), 12-14 (doc 4), 25-26 (doc 7). Lots of other good stories though. Watch out for ace writers: Terry Nation, Terrence Dicks, Robert Holmes, Chris Boucher, David Fisher, Chris Bailey, Ben Aaronovitch.

    #78523
    ps1l0v3y0u @replies

    @angleonashton

    The Doctor is known to regenerate as a result of trauma… 4, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13; poison/exposure to radiation… 3, 5, 10 (twice); forced regeneration or sacrifice… 2, 9, 14; and old age… 1, the War Doctor and 11.

    But there have been occasions when The Doctor ages unnaturally within an incarnation… the thing you mentioned that The Master does to The Doctor, but also with 4 in The Leisure Hive. The aging was unnatural and they recover.

    As for Jack, no one knew for sure that he was The Face of Boe. It seems likely that he is, and the ‘unnatural’ vortex driven nature of his apparent immortality caused some kind of long term metabolic deterioration (??!) Who knows?

    btw both Clara and Ashildr are also functionally immortal, though Clara is in fact trapped just before the instant of her death, and Ashildr has a limited consciousness of her life because she’s run out of memory.

    #78520
    ps1l0v3y0u @replies

    @dentarthurdent

    You misunderstand. My character analyses were for a putative reboot for OUR time: crooks are creeps, ruthless dictators are also venal idiots, freedom fighters hopelessly naive. MY kind of dystopia.

    I just think you could have much more fun with the idea of The Liberator. Could a bunch of polynesians have done nothing with an C18th sloop without instruction from at least some of the existing crew? Let us not forget Chib’s useless ‘Sontaran’s have three fingers’ running joke.

    Ok. The Liberator’s controls are obviously telepathic… why? Why would you want a bunch of aliens take over your ship? Or is the ship actually taking over the alien crew?

    As I say… fun.

    #78515
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    @dentarthurdent @janetteb @whohar

    I am thinking ORAC. Don’t remember the others. Future AI will surely be inanity we’ve got used to or think cool for some reason. How long have people been saying ‘ooh no it’s coming for you… SO clever and snarky’ and I say ‘for them maybe’ and ‘why do you think that? Oh you spent a lot of money didn’t you? Cui bono?’

    Seriously, The Liberator is a problem. Even on the original show. It’s like ‘my lord, I have discovered the purest Unobtainium! Let’s celebrate!’ That has to be rethought.

    Was Avon actually a crook originally? He could be really sleazy and unpleasant. Servalan a very very obvious venal and self important stuffed shirt. Blake a hopelessly naïve idealist with dark secrets. For our time…

    #78512
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    @whohar @dentarthurdent

    Female Blake? Cyborg Avon? Canine Servalan??

    I definitely recommend Trojan Horse Liberator… actually a Von Neumann machine, with brain wipe reverse isomorphic controls. Your dystopia has nothing on mine.

    …. riffing on that, a Galactic ‘Pleuribus’ crisis, even? Canine Servalan develops disturbing (for the Telegraph) Rigellian pentasexual tendancies…

    Annoying computer just churns out rubbish cat based AI: everyone believes/goes ahhh/giggles inanely.

    I’m rambling…

    #78509
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    @dentarthurdent @whohar

    I must have seen virtually all of B7 in the first run. I remember the everybody dies finale. At the time I assumed, whatever Michael Grade might say, that tv sci fi was going to look a bit rubbish compared with Hollywood. And obviously the writing was pretty consistent and good. Wouldn’t have known who Chris Boucher was now I realise he clearly knew his stuff and – can I say this? Happy NOT to be working with Tom, who apparently wound him up.

    In hindsight… problems. How to reboot?

    The Ship. Well, that’s fortunate! An alien trojan horse might be a more convincing scenario…

    Disappearance of Blake. It’s called Blake 7 stupid.

    They had a rubbish computer didn’t they? I mean it  was apparently a neat computer but so was K9. In need of C21st upgrade.

    The resolution of deadly conflict in dystopia. Not saying ‘everybody dies’ can’t be done, but you do need Fortinbras and The English Ambassador.

     

    #78506
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    @whohar

    You get the impression of people jockeying for position… but actually he’s making a general point that money doesn’t necessarily make shows better, and there isn’t as much anyway anymore!

    ‘Something went wrong.’ Really with Who and from a writing point of view, that’s only true of the season ends. The ratings are another issue, and it’s difficult to see how the show can continue without change.

    Any other show would reboot. That is, reinterpret the ‘classics’. But Who is in a state of continual reboot. This is why continuity is a boon or a curse, depending on whether you’re a fan/writer or The Corporation. Was Disney and/or another streamer a way to duck the issue of preventing writers producing uncomfortable material? ‘We are no longer your paymasters. Talk to The Mouse.’

    So, does that mean Russ/a n other is freed from control? Clearly not. Probably still under discussion. I’d like to know what Head of Drama Commissioning thinks.

    #78495
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    @thane16 @nerys @mudlark @whohar @whisht

    Much (though far from all) my knowledge of Classical comes via the prism of Prog. Mind you first time I heard Tapiola by Sibelius it was a ‘building a library’ program… basically a Head of David like 1/2 hour wall of sound interspersed with two terribly educated gents asking each other… ‘which one do you think is noisier?’

    Thank you for the New Year effort whisht. Two options after Tom Waits (I laughed) was Fred and Rita cutting the rug to Led Zep. I laughed.

    #78491
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    @whohar @thane16

    Howard Goodall (of multiple tv theme contributions) presented an interesting program a decade or more ago called ‘The Story of Music’, about the Western Classical Tradition. Not sure if it’s still in circulation.

    However, I found I parted company with his narrative after Beethoven. Not because I don’t like Romantic Classical but I just had a different narrative in mind. I can see that after Ludwig, composers must have been forced to kick around for a new direction (in my mind they’re Spike Milligan and pals advancing on the camera saying ‘what are we gonna do now?)

    So, Howard calls Berlioz psychotic (ok maybe he’s a little crazy), spent far too long discussing Liszt (Howard was lining up a good kicking for C20th tonalism) and ignored Tchaik and Sibelius. Can’t remember what he said about Brahms; maybe that Wagner had the good choons (though I’m sure he also repeated the line about Wagner having brilliant moments and terrible quarter hours). He quickly hurried on to Satie, Debussy and Ravel.

    The Beeb have just done a brilliant Composer of the Week about Aaron Copeland; I somehow found the biography of a C20th composer much more engaging than some German/Frenchman/Russian/Scandinavian being tortured by their pretty piano students.

     

    #78478
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    @thane16

    Floyd… ah, that’s Rog that is. The music became his idee fixee because the rest gave up. Money was a huge issue, everywhere. There is such a sharp distinction between the post rock collective approach of Radiohead (and others but not everywhere) and the nastiness that preceded.

    Even bands like Cream, a band formed specifically to write, but Jack Bruce did seem to undermine that.

    That may not seem all that relevant now. Music today is about streaming not writing and contracts. And rewarding talent is a very different matter…

    #78473
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    @dentarthurdent

    Hipgnosis covers are very cool.

    DSotM was a breakthrough; Floyd had some success earlier but, as a band they were unaccountably down on it. Lots of sterling work, largely the setlist of their ‘69 stage show, was frittered away on movie soundtracks and b-sides.

    Richard Wright had been Syd Barrett’s biggest collaborator, but Waters and Mason could barely tolerate his compositions. DSotM supposedly featured his last major contributions though his work on Wish You Were Here and Animals sounds stunning to me.

    #78460
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    #78452
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    <p style=”text-align: left;”>@dentarthurdent</p>
    if they’re clouds, and you see them, presumably they’re not vapour but condensed droplets not yet ready fall like the gentle rain from heaven

    #78429
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    @winters3758

    Only watched as far as The Deep (ep 3) so far. Interested to see the various resolutions, if Russ manages that, because there’s a lot of tropes and peculiar soft sci fi genuflections which I’m sure can’t be all they seem to be. But by the time you read this, you’ll know.

    It’s interesting that this longer form seems more successful than the ‘combined’ effect of the various episodes of the last two series. Though there were real short form triumphs there too. Whether this is down to a rush in writing and editing, or because Russ is now less in sympathy with an episodic structure I’m not sure. Cos he mastered it effortlessly before.

    Some critics have been moaning about UNIT too. I recognise the issue and hope this is part of the same question of resolution. ie I think the world of ‘The War’ is distinct to the world we’ve been looking at in Who.

    Does that make sense?

    @elleohelle

    Sorry, I watch ‘The War’ on I Player in Britain. Surely it’s on Disney+? Good luck. I think it’s worth watching.

     

    #78425
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    @janetteb

    Yes, I suppose writers’ relationship with the show was different after the gap, because of the gap. But there are loyal writers who were apparently cast aside before. And writers who were obviously commissioned, delivered and slid away after; Maxine Alderton almost made the Fam and T’floox work for ooh 45 minutes or so. Where is she?

    Is it a case of ‘try anything once’? Or ‘not working with that guy again,’ or ‘it’s a madhouse!’

    Obviously I think in a madhouse, one writer is as good as any other and anyway it’s a kid’s show.

    tWBtLatS… it’s not a disaster… yet. 3 out of 5 is about right. As opposed to the (anticipated) complaints about heavy handed eco virtue signalling, I am worried that there are good ideas here which will be sold short. It does have a hohum feeling but NOT a glazed eye feeling.

    I do hope it’s not Stockton Rush who’s going to deliver Barclay to the abyssal plain.

    Stompy Robot? Husbands of River Song? Only problem is the final freeze frame. Not sure if Michael is being taken. I can take End of Time. ‘I like you. I bet you’d taste great!’

     

     

     

    #78421
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    @whohar @devilishrobby

    Hope this doesn’t give too much away. Overall, yes watch it!

    Positive:

    Acting… though Russel Tovey does his best, Barclay the character could become annoying.

    Theme… why ARE we specularly failing to control plastics?

    Effects… those are great rubber suits! No really it’s fine and we’ll be watching that water flow down the big tube many time I’m sure (sigh)

    Unsure:

    Bit slow… the ‘naming’ thing takes up lots of verbage. Maybe there will be a point at which Barclay will actually ask ‘what do you call yourselves?

    There seem to be some clumsy Checkhov guns yet to be let off. Not sure how RTD can stop the overall effect being quite silly

    It’s the new UNIT with all that entails… but not all the Who interns, so far anyway.

    The villains/antagonists and the conflicts among the humans tend to the cliched comic book level. The overall effect may also become quite silly.

    We’re dealing with marine reptiles with retro evolved gills. I think there should be more of… ahem… a ‘barf’ factor. But maybe not all of Checkhov’s arsenal is deployed yet.

    #78412
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    Why do writers leave Who?

    Robert Holmes, series 16

    Ribos: The last but one Holmes story before he was apparently exiled for 4 years. One received well, the other rather less so. Need to be careful here because there are people who get touchy about this era. But new team of Williams and Read had a problem: the Hinchcliff/Holmes formula was verboten, they just delivered one stinker in Underworld and Invasion of Time was rather more miss than hit. On top of that Liz Sladen refused to come back. So, someone cooked up the Key of Time arc. Not a fan myself. 4 himself dismissed the concept of The Guardians in-show 2 series later.

    But Ribos obviously has the design to inspire much Nuwho continuity, from ‘lots of planets have a North’ to the Time Lords own Visionary in Day of the Doctor, and the Mire-like helms of Graff Vynder-K’s mooks. Holmes does his sparkly gab and deft broadstroke characterisation, though Mary Tamm is rather let down by the ice queen in the ivory tower Gallifreyan trope; I’m sure she vould have been far more acid and Tom might have handled The Doctor being taken down a few more pegs. Oh and now Yappy-Sue K9 can dissolve solid rock… without draining its battery! It’s Sunmaker level, which is fine, maybe not from the very highest tier, but this gallops along. Even the critter is ok by virtue of not being a variety of man in gimp-suit.

    Kroll: Read and Williams had already been ticked off about bad laughs in Invasion of Time. David Fisher seems to have been allowed the odd sly joke in his brace of eps, and Ribos had it’s own a slew of permissible risibility, but Holmes excuse for Kroll is that it was boring because Read insisted.

    The exteriors are shot in the Suffolk marshes; squelching in the mud had to replace any humour. Actually, Kroll itself isn’t too bad for the effects of the time. The Swampies’ green dye wouldn’t come off. Embarrassin’. The human ‘dryfoots’ are rather boring and ridiculous cannon fodder. Some details in the plot, like how The Doctor learns about Kroll or The Doctor resonating a window til it shatters in true Fat Lady tradition, are just stupid.

    It’s an inferior reworking of Fury from the Deep which ought to be fine, considering Holmes is already working on the elements that would come to glorious fruition in Androzani four years early, but the overall impression is Holmes gave up on the script in disgust.

    #78411
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    @nerys @dentarthurdent

    In the age of ‘rage-bait’, malicious blatantly revanchist/irredentist sites and posts, of funded social media stooges, of bots and fake foreign avatars of known personalities, can we really claim the new information order down to ‘matters of opinion’ or reactions to apparent ‘mistakes’ made in obviously exceptional circumstance?

    That the pandemic should be quite such a catalyst is predictable… it’s a source of considerable stress, but not related to the main narrative. This seems to be lack of trust in governments, institutions and industries, possibly as we atomise around the illusion of our ‘intelligent’ devices, and new generations forget a time when they weren’t.

    In terms of ‘pbs’… it’s very odd. The cost isn’t great. Do you or do you not want an element of broadcasting to be independently funded? In the case of The BBC the main problem seems to be that the License Fee is not a natural tax. I don’t mean ‘just’. You really might not think you have to pay it. There is no great cost. You pay for other stuff. Why pay for this too?

    This is being exploited.

    There is one common theme: don’t tax us. No state; Do as the uber rich say? Collapse state; exploit disorder?

    Other dystopias are available.

     

    #78404
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    @translatorcircuit

    I don’t know John McKay… and I’m sure I should … apparently hugely influential. You get the idea that there were so many musicians like Keith Levine, who hadn’t done the grammar school music thing and so didn’t launch into classical references and jazz, though jazz was anti rock (which in early 80’s was very cool…) most of the post punk would agree.

    I did wonder if you meant John McGeogh (obvs you don’t) who joined Souxsie later. He was both a willing servant to the music and looked to other innovators he couldn’t quote directly (cos they were rock baggage at the time).

    #78402
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    @nerys @dentarthurdent @janetteb

    This was the high water mark of S1. Only the finale (of the series) was a real problem, because those 2 eps dragged, and begged so many questions. That is, intelligent guesses can be made about to the arc but most people aren’t that interested. This means the show (or rather RTD and Gatwa) become a target to people who really aren’t interested in the show. Or even more of a target than they would have been already.

    #78397
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    @translatorcircuit

    I have so so much admiration for those who, Pete Sinfield said of Ian McDonald, can pluck a string, hit a key or vibrate a reed and create a pleasing sound. Because I can’t. I can only admire and read.

    The tritone is a dissonance, ‘mi contra fa’, avoided and ‘demonised’ by medieval sacred music: typically an augmented fourth. Romantic composers liked their musical pallet rich however: so naughty boys like Liszt, Wagner and Berlioz gobble it up; also Debussy and Bartok, and you hear it in Mars and Uranus from Holst’s Planets.

    ‘The Inner Light,’ ‘Blue Jay Way’ and ‘Within and Without You’ by Harrison all feature Tritones. I think he may have started writing on the Hammond organ around this time; obviously ‘Without’ may have been written or adapted for Indian traditional instruments, but George seems to have searching for new musical colours in 67.

    Then Hendrix, Black Sabbath and King Crimson hijacked the tritone to develop ‘metal’ tunings.

    I think. It’s the less cuddly one.

    The BBC have bigger problems than some dissatisfied customers. That is dissatisfied customers want to know why they’re paying the license fee.

    How do you fund a public sector broadcaster? If parties in favour of the private sector want value for money, cos they want people to pay for their own product, how do you get them to commission original drama and documentary? What if the third parties you decide to purchase from on the cheap don’t comply with your editorial standards?

    ie Watch Out!

    #78395
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    @translatorcircuit

    three tones apart sounds like the tritone, long described as ‘the Devil in Music’ and rejected by musical theorists until C19th. Significantly, George Harrison did use it more than once.

    Disney+… I can hardly say it was satisfactory but S1: 3-6 worked; also S2: 2-7. Only S1: 7-8 were abject failures.

    The main problem is we don’t know where the show goes next. Or what the legacy will be. We seem to be mid arc. But if the arc is VR… and Poppy is Belinda’s very human child, who is to say Poppy doesn’t REPRESENT Susan’s mum? So, maybe that clip WILL be used yet!

    Also, the Doctor apparently has several wives. River is last seen in a VR reading bedtime stories to (the magic number) THREE children (one of whom is Charlotte Lux). Bet she LOVED that.

    So Time Lords meeting in the right order isn’t necessarily relevant, but even so there’s something about ‘the causal nexus’ invoked there (whenever that was)… what the hell is THAT? Got my own suspicions about Saxon and Missy.

    But, will that story be developed now? Maybe without Disney’s proscriptions, things will seem less fevered.

    #78391
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    @dentarthurdent @devilishrobby @nerys

    I must admit of all this series, 73 yards is the most erm… enigmatic.

    The distance is about the Tardis in some way: who the woman is; what she says to third parties at 73 yards, I’ve no idea. Nor why Mad Jack should be imprisoned in the ring BEFORE he manifests Roger ap Gwillem…. but that’s magic… or timey wimey or whatever.

    I did have theories re Rog…

    1. echo of Harold Saxon… name, missile obsession, toxic masculinity… which makes me wonder anout his other obsession… DNA. Obviously, half the genetic heritage/history social media posts are stirring the alt right pot. But could it also be about Gallifreyan dna?

    Also, what did all the Zygons do?

    2. Then the interpretation (translation) of the name… ‘renowned spear’ and ‘helm of domination’… the rod and coronet of Rassilon?

    But that would make the arc a ‘Mindrobberesque’ Virtual Reality… eventually including other Virtual Realities in a recursive loop reminiscent of… Castrovalva?

    RTD has a new (brief) interview. The Special has been written ‘in his head’ since 2021… because it was the initial idea apparently. So, resolution of the arc, or a tease?

    Wonder if there are some surprises in tWBtLatS that may feed in?

     

    #78385
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    @dentarthurdent @nerys

    Goblin King… NOT the Jagrafess??

    Music… it was a thing. Then it went away. It’s as if Russ wasn’t really interested. Contractural obligation? Exhibiting to the Head of Drama the error of his ways? Like it will make a difference.

    #78379
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    @nerys @whohar @dentarthurdent

    @whohar… that prescience got you at least one other returning classic Who villain… do you have a source or is it rude to ask? btw if you do, and the 2026 special looks precarious, then it IS bad news for bonkerising of all kind.

    But you might want to think about Oct 5th. Boom wasn’t broadcast on that date. 3 and 3 only Who stories were: Mind Robber (Virtual Reality) Paradise Towers (?? toxic masculinity and the Great Architect) & Remembrance of the Daleks (Hand of Omega). But, if there’s a handover after 2026 it could all be in the air.

    The same goes for the return of Villengard. It cropped up in Twice upon a Time… and we’ll see it again, but ‘Twice’ a shout back to Moff’s first era or hints of Cartmel 2.0 being seeded?

    Villengard…

    V’linx…

    Valeyard???

    Anyway, Boom was brilliant, powerful, topical.

    #78373
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    @whohar

    Ok. I knew about new showrunners choice and the rationale. My response was a bit Carry On.

    Though coming straight after Dharwan stepped out in Whitaker’s it was uh… THERE.

    Really, 13>14 WAS more loaded than 12>13. Again, does this reflect the unrelenting blandness of 13?

    #78370
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    @translatorcircuit

    Dharwanmaster got 13’s clothes. The revived 13 got his! 14 in that clobber would have been hilarious, but they went for the long goodbye didn’t. Fairly sure that’s the hand of Chib. RTD wouldn’t have turned that chance of a laugh.

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