Dark Water

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@badwulf  In skimming through yesterday’s contributions just now (to refresh my memory) I noticed that my post #34529 in response to you was incorrectly addressed; my apologies.   I didn’t notice at the time because there is someone registered with the user name badwolf – which must have caused confusion if they were alerted.

The response was, of course, made with tongue firmly lodged in cheek 🙂

 

[Anonymous @]

@scaryb, he may be cyberised but  how would that stop him from interacting with Danny.  Who better to goad one person to delete his emotions than a cyberman.

 

 

[PhileasF @phileasf]

@badwulf – Thanks for that! Looks like I can put all my half-formed body-swapping theories back on the shelf, so to speak.

It turns out I have the 2013 Proms show on BluRay, in the 50th anniversary collection, I just haven’t watched it yet. I tend to watch them with my parents on Christmas day (when Australia’s ABC usually puts them on in the afternoon). Christmas is about the only day of the year I really feel like a good dose of proms… probably because I start drinking so early 🙂

[Cath Annabel @cathannabel]

I do think – hope –  that the whole ‘conscious after death’ thing will be proved to be a fake, as it’s just too dark and hideous and traumatising a concept to bear, whether one has just been bereaved, or had to reassure a child that cremation can’t hurt the dead person, or not.  In which case, are the inhabitants of the nethersphere actually proper dead, and in some sort of purgatory, a pending state before oblivion/heaven/hell or whatever it is that awaits us?  Or have they been snatched in some way that separates them from their corporeal selves but not irrevocably so (until they press delete)?   Not sure about how that is all going to play out, not at all.  Lots more to be revealed on Saturday, I’m sure.

I am actually pondering more on the post-its and what they are telling us about Clara.  I noted that a number of people believe that the phone call from Clara to Danny was made by a future Clara, but at present I just can’t get my head around that at all (timey wimey stuff often defeats me, I just have to accept what I’m told as I get a major headache if I try to actually comprehend).  When the phone went dead at Danny’s end she genuinely seemed not to know what had happened – but unless I missed something, the Clara that initiated that call with all the shut upping, was the same as the one who was being told that Danny had had an accident and reacted with shock and disbelief.   Aside from that I really want to get a closer look at all the post its – it seemed as though she had figured out something important, and urgent, and we never found out what it was because she only got as far as I love you – and the importance and urgency of that didn’t make sense without the context.

 

[SonicBilby @sonicbilby]

So there’s a Doctor Skarosa as in Skaro-sa? Why Skaro in a Cyberman story? I wonder if it has something to do with Into the Dalek?

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@apopheniac

I am flattered, but I can’t claim anything like the extensive knowledge of Doctor Who history and lore that many others here possess.  I am sufficiently advanced in years to have been around since the beginning of the show and watching on and off, but during the sixties and early seventies there were quite long stretches where I did not have access to a television, so there are many episodes of BG Who that I never saw at the time, and subsequently my memories of those I did see became hazy at best.  I stopped watching during the Colin Baker era and never read any of the novels or listened to the audio adventures either, so for the most part all  I retained was a general overview with some fairly large gaps.  It is only recently, and thanks chiefly to the retrospective broadcasts on the Horror Channel, that I have begun to catch up/refresh my memory.

The possible parallels between the current run of episodes and The Mind Robber had not occurred to me until you pointed them out, and I am inclined to withhold judgement until we have seen the final episode next week.  Granted there have been story book and legendary elements, but I am not (yet) convinced that they have all been generated within a dream landscape, whereas in The Mind Robber it was apparent immediately that what the Doctor, Jamie and Zoe were experiencing was happening in a surreal non-place.

Missy has certainly been operating behind the scenes to bring about her desired ends and Clara, whoever or whatever she is, is clearly her chosen agent,  but I cannot see how she could have been orchestrating events to the extent of causing Danny’s death, still less his killing of the Afghani boy. On the other hand she may very well have been flitting back and forth along the various time lines, and using her awareness of past and future events to manipulate people in a rather more subtle fashion.

 

[BadWulf @badwulf]

@mudlark I have excavated – and seen the analyses – of too many Saxon and medieval burials to be convinced by that assertion.  Prove it, I say!  (And, just for the record, the gravedigger scene in Hamlet is exactly true to life/death).

Touché! One cannot argue with Shakespeare in terms of either archaeological methodology or historical accuracy – the chap was prodigiously error-free in all his outputs. Why, only just the other year they found one of his leading men under a car park in Leicester exactly where Shakespeare said he would be (just off Horsefair Street where he was looking to purchase a horse for the price of his kingdom).

As for the moon egg, I thought I had provided a very satisfactory exposition of the pseudo-science behind that: the ‘egg’ the space dragon laid was not moon sized; it was a super-dense egg – a neutron egg, if you like (which accounted for the increase in mass of the moon without increase in size)  which inflated to moon size after it had been laid.

There was *something* super-dense about that episode, but I’m not sure it was the egg… (mumbles something about silly plots)

In skimming through yesterday’s contributions just now (to refresh my memory) I noticed that my post #34529 in response to you was incorrectly addressed; my apologies.   I didn’t notice at the time because there is someone registered with the user name badwolf – which must have caused confusion if they were alerted.

No need to apologise!

[PhileasF @phileasf]

@scaryb –  Apart from Doctor Who, my favourite thing is books, so I love looking at people’s bookshelves, especially TV and movie characters. It’s great when someone has put some proper effort into stocking a character’s shelves, and you can see that their books match who they are.

Sadly, the Doctor’s books are mainly of a vintage that makes identification very difficult, and I fear they were mostly purchased by the kilo or foot from a set dressing company that keeps a massive stock of more-or-less valueless old books. They look great on the set, but I suspect they’re ‘really’ just old parliamentary debates and council minutes and similar stuff that looks nice on a shelf but which only a historian with very specific interests would want to read. Every time I see them I mainly worry that next time the TARDIS experiences some turbulence in the vortex they’ll all fly off the shelves and get damaged.

I happened upon the shelf more or less by accident, while trying to identify the park Danny was walking through. It looked nice, and I wouldn’t mind visiting it. I assumed it was in London, which made identification difficult. It’s actually in Cardiff. And yet I don’t think it was only chosen for convenience to the studio, because that striking colonnade and statue Danny walks past right at the start of the episode, which really caught my eye, is the Welsh National War Memorial in Cathays Park.

I suspect we’re not supposed to draw any conclusions from the fact that Danny was in a park in Cardiff while he was apparently minutes’ walk from Clara’s home, which is probably in London. I’m sure the park was chosen because it was convenient, looks really great, and contains a war memorial which ties it in with ongoing themes. I’m sure that we’re supposed to think that in the Doctor Who universe that’s a London park, and not think too much about it.

[The9thDoctor @the9thdoctor]

Sorry, gentlemen, I didn’t read everything posted here.

I enjoyed the episode, but I got a little disppointed with Missy/Mistress/Master plot. Well, I find way too obvious, I was really expecting something like Rani or Romana…

There is a possibilty of a plot twist which could be any of those Time Ladys lying about their true identity (Who am I fooling? haha).

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@Margaret-Blaine

I’ve seen complaints elsewhere from people who have recently been bereaved who found it upsetting to think of the dead being still linked to their bodies and suffering when being cremated etc.

It’s very much a child’s question (and, indeed, an adult fear) and it’s considerably better to discuss it than to hide it ‘for the sake of the children’. It’s obviously provoking strong reactions; the Radio Times reporter (Patrick Mulkern) who did the advance blurb was fuming. ‘Crass’ and ‘poor taste’ were his words.

In an audience of seven million plus, you WILL hit a proportion of just bereaved people. I switched off Father’s Day about five minutes in; my Dad had recently died following an accident. But I wouldn’t ever say that they shouldn’t have done that story.

Likewise – the idea of life after death is in our culture, and in most other world cultures. It seems to be part of being human. And kids will wonder if, if death is not final, whether we know what’s happening to the bodies we left behind.

But if we flatly refuse to talk about it, because it’s ‘crass’ and ‘poor taste’, they won’t ask. Kids pick up very quickly what adults don’t want to talk about. They’ll just worry, quietly, by themselves.

Better to discuss it in the form of a story. It’s easier to talk about stories.

[Craig @craig Emperor]

@scaryb Glad you like the new look. I don’t think it’ll last long though. Enjoy it while you can!

Re @robertdaller ‘s post, it’s just a discussion of the episode, no spoilers. Robert, once the episode has aired it can be freely discussed and mentioning what happens in it does not count as a spoiler. Spoilers are only mentions of what has not yet been aired, and they belong in the Spoilers thread or, if they are in the “Next Time” trailer, in the Trailers blog.

Thanks for being so courteous though.

[PhileasF @phileasf]

@cathannabel – I’ve had a pretty good look at the post-it notes, and I don’t think they tell us much that we didn’t already know. They mostly seem to be ‘bullet point’ (or post-it?) summaries of the episodes this season. There seem to be a few we never get a close look at though. And there’s one that may tell us something we don’t already know.

Here are all that were legible (to me):

• PSI
• IMPOSSIBLE GIRL
• SAIBRA
• VASTRA
• ROBIN HOOD  [There are actually two ROBIN HOOD post-its. He must have made quite an impression.]
• LYING…
• LYING [double underlined]
• DINOSAUR IN LONDON
• MAISIE
• JENNY
• COURTNEY ON THE MOON
• COURTNEY BECOMES THE PRESIDENT [this is attached to the ‘COURTNEY ON THE MOON’ post-it]
• BONELESS
• THE DOCTOR
• ORIENT EXPRESS
• MINIATURE CLARA  [I guess this refers to Into the Dalek]
• JUST SAY IT  [with SAY underlined – this is the one Clara plucks from the shelf and then returns to it while talking to Danny]
• TRUTH  [underlined]
• RUPERT PINK
• DAN, DAN THE SOLDIER MAN  [attached to the RUPERT PINK post-it]
• KILL THE MOON
• KARABRAXOS
• ROB THE BANK
• THREE MONTHS
• WHOLE COUNTRY UNDER FOREST  [this was hard to read, and I ‘interpreted’ it by thinking about everything that’s happened this year and trying to match it to the text]

Of these, the one that doesn’t seem to match what we’ve seen is THREE MONTHS, which someone above has pointed out as possible evidence that Clara is pregnant.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@badwulf   😆

Well, with all the names of other authorities being bandied about, why not Shakespeare as well?  (and for that matter it is perfectly possible that he did know, at least in a general sense, that his hunchbacked arch villain had been buried in Grey Friar’s church in Leicester, since it was a matter of public record).

The reference to the gravedigger scene was in fact a somewhat oblique allusion to the fact that the graves in old churchyards, from medieval times until relatively recently, seldom remained for very long undisturbed to await the Last Trump, owing to the high mortality rate and the limited space available for new burials.  Medieval depictions of the Last Judgement show the dead rising intact from their tombs.  The reality, as I sometimes envisioned it, would be a confused scene of people hobbling and crawling around looking for their missing bits, and accosting each other with queries such as  ‘Have you seen a femur, about ‘this’ long, with a healed break just above the knee?’  (Sorry.  Archaeologists tend to have a rather ghoulish sense of humour).

[BadWulf @badwulf]

@mudlark Archaeologists tend to have a rather ghoulish sense of humour

Does that include sneaking around Egyptian tombs, wearing a gas mask and asking “Are you my mummy?”

Speaking of Greyfriars – I was very pleased when they made the announcement because I remember going shopping in Leicester as a small child, and my father always used to park in that car park, so I have very probably walked all over Richard III’s grave! Finding an actual *named* individual’s remains from that long ago (where the grave wasn’t clearly marked like Tutankhamun’s) seems incredible!

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@badwulf

Does that include sneaking around Egyptian tombs, wearing a gas mask and asking “Are you my mummy?”

So that’s why I am addicted to Doctor Who!  I always wondered.

[zeitgeis @zeitgeis]

We have dead Danny Pink getting a phone call from Clara, who asserts she wants to be with him.  She hasn’t said anything about bringing him back to the living (proper) so he must think that she  has in mind killing herself so as to be with him in the neterworld. So, when she demands a proof that he is truly her Danny Pink, he must refuse her demand.  Talk about doomed lovers!

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@phileasf

Thanks for identifying the Welsh National War Memorial in Cathays Park. I was wondering what the monument was. And I agree that we were supposed to assume it was in London and not think too much about it. When I was watching, I was also struck by the fact that Danny is supposedly only a couple of minutes’ walk from Clara’s flat, and he appears to have been hit by a car in central London, and yet Clara’s flat, the last time we saw it from the outside (the previous episode with Gran) seemed to be in a rather desolate spot a long way from central London.

Clearly, Google Maps don’t fit into the Who universe!

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@blenkinsopthebrave

 and yet Clara’s flat, the last time we saw it from the outside (the previous episode with Gran) seemed to be in a rather desolate spot a long way from central London.

I assumed that was her dad’s flat.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@blenkinsopthebrave

We have some lovely parks in desolate London (she says rather plaintively).

The park they picked most looked like Regent’s Park, and there are indeed some seriously crappy council housing estates nearby. Or it might have been meant for Victoria Park, which borders Hackney and Tower Hamlets.

One thing I do like about Clara’s flat is that they’ve finally given someone a flat they could actually afford (okay, her Mum probably left her some money to afford the deposit). So tiny she has to squeeze past the TARDIS whenever it lands inside, clearly ex-council, in a tower block.

[lisa @lisa]

So I looked here first thing when I woke up this morning {I’m in northern California} wondering
if any one else was thinking the Cyberman in Dr. Chang’s tank was Dr Skarosa aka [maybe] Davros ???
However- my prediction that Missy was Romana was totally wrong ! So probably not
On the other hand – I get the feeling that SM is attempting to mix it all up
The whole season seems to me about pulling bits and pieces from lots of past seasons/scenarios/myths etc.
Btw – does anyone know if the Dr Chang might have been a previous character name in past Who-dom???

I just also want to say that I am totally loving all the contributions on all the entire story/series here!!!
All of you are so brilliant !!! It has been a total treat to be on the this forum world with all of you delicious Who-sters !!

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@pedant

Boy oh boy…Because of you, I just put the DVD of “The Time of the Doctor” back in and freeze-framed the kitchen. On another screen, I have freeze-framed the kitchen in “Dark Water”. It is exactly the same kitchen! So, yes, it is her flat. In fact, I think the dialogue between Clara and her father about cooking the dinner indicates that her father emailed her instructions, presumably before coming over for dinner.

@bluesqueakpip

There are, indeed, some wonderful parks in London, along with some truly crappy council housing estates. But even though we have witnessed Danny’s athletic ability by doing somersaults, I think it would be even beyond Danny’s ability to make it from the Welsh National War Memorial to London in a couple of minutes!

[beancounter @beancounter]

The Master reminds me of James Bond villians. Instead of shooting him outright, they often devise an elaborate means of killing 007, and then leave the scene, giving him an opportunity to escape. Or they will launch into  a long monolog giving 007 an opportunity to figure something out.

He’s a Time Lord, why not just go back in time and kill Doctor Who’s parents, the butterfly effect be damned?…

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@blenkinsopthebrave

Boy oh boy…Because of you, I just put the DVD of “The Time of the Doctor”

Sorry 😉

(There are some tower blocks in Roehampton, quite close to Wimbledon Common and Richmond Park)

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@pedant

To paraphrase a famous line from one of the worst movies ever made:

“being on this site means never having to say you’re sorry”

btw, where’s the trailer for “Death in Heaven”?

 

[Brewski @brewski]

Random Thoughts in Not Particular Order (Some of which I see other eaglery eyes them mine have spotted:

. Loved about every second of it

. Post-it notes. More low tech list-making. Like the chalk board.

. Clara had something dire to talk to Danny about, then abruptly changed her tone. Still feels like we’re missing pieces of time here.

. Opening the Tardis with a finger-snap. You know, to me its always felt like that was a sort-of “remote control” like with a BMW door lock. You can open it with your hand, but you still need the physical key in your possession.

. Dream Inducer, eh? Like so much of what’s been going on feels dream-like…

. Missy is the Master. I was on the edge of my seat like everyone else when I heard “Which Timelord?!” And yet… and yet… Why does it feel like not quite enough Moffitrickery? There’s another rug under us ready to be pulled out.

. Missy must not be the woman in the shop.

. Yes, I choked up, too when Danny’s last words were “I love you”. And yet… and yet… He actually was not able to prove he was who he said he was…

. St. Paul’s doesn’t need a perception filter. The Mistress’s Tardis could easily envelope the whole building and then take on its shape. @blenkinsopthebrave, yep you got it. 🙂

. The emotion Delete Button is strikingly similar to the device used by Miss Kizlet in The Bells of St. John. Hmmm… wifi… hmmm… Clara was uploaded.

. Clara pregnant. THAT’S what she had to “just say” to Danny!

[DrBen @drben]

@cathannabel @bluesqueakpip @Margaret-Blaine and others – I am convinced that the “the dead can feel” thing is a lie.  It is all part of a manipulation by Missy and 3W to convince you to press that DELETE button and consent to being made a Cyberman.  (Note: I’m not sure why voluntary consent is preferable to just converting people against their will, but maybe they get more successful conversions from willing participants?)

In fact, the whole experience is designed to convince you to leave the world being and rid yourself of emotion.  I suspect that the kid that Danny killed is not really there — maybe a “hard light hologram” based on a scan of Danny’s memory — but rather is there to exacerbate his guilt.  Then, they convince you that you’re going to be cremated, and it’s going to be a horribly painful experience for you, and BAM, you want to press the button.

It would be too on-the-nose for DW to take a stand on something as fundamental as what happens after death.  My theory is that certain susceptible people are targeted by Missy and 3W and transported there (where?) at the instant of death, leaving behind a fake body.  This leaves the actual afterlife a mystery, as it should be.  And I think Danny was specifically targeted to attract the Doctor – that’s why Missy “chose” Clara in the first place (maybe).

At this point, it seems unlikely that Missy was the Woman in the Shop.  Moff is holding on to that reveal for a little while longer.

[DrBen @drben]

Also, when I mentioned to my wife the “THREE MONTHS” thing and @spider ‘s theory that she’s pregnant, my wife shook her head and said “nah, she’s dying.”  (As in, three months to live.)

This would add additional resonance to her scene about how Danny’s death was “boring”.  Imagine traveling all through space and time and then being told that you’ve got, say, inoperable cancer?

This is my new bonkers theory for the Christmas episode.  Bring Kleenex.

[Anonymous @]

@craig

Thank you for tidying up my post. I’m guessing it was pressing the text tab which sent it funny. Won’t do it again!

[Brewski @brewski]

@drben
Also, when I mentioned to my wife the “THREE MONTHS” thing and @spider ‘s theory that she’s pregnant, my wife shook her head and said “nah, she’s dying.” (As in, three months to live.)
This would add additional resonance to her scene about how Danny’s death was “boring”. Imagine traveling all through space and time and then being told that you’ve got, say, inoperable cancer?
This is my new bonkers theory for the Christmas episode. Bring Kleenex.

Wow! And I thought my version of Clara’s end was rough! Though it’s hard to reconcile that with her finding Danny in what she thinks is the after life and not just saying to him “Hang on, I’ll be there soon.”

I have a (bad) feeling that what will happen at the end of next week, after the Doctor has saved the day and reunited the happy couple, Clara will start for the Tardis for another adventure and the Doctor will block her way. He saved Danny because he did owe her one. But she betrayed him and (despite what he said in this episode) I think he will tell her they’re through.

ETA Although your version does make sense of her line “You’re the last person I will say this to.”

 

[Arbutus @arbutus]

Just had my second watch. Man, that was good. 11/10. Personally, I don’t think it missed a beat. The first 16 minutes are possibly the best that DW has ever been. Clara’s anxious conversation with Danny, and the line “Those words from me are yours now,” I loved that line! And the way the music, and all sound, just stops, at the moment he is apparently hit by the car. Then Clara, running to the accident, and then the jump to later, with those terribly tragic flowers left at the scene (those memorials always make me shudder), and the distant voice of the headmaster announcing Danny’s death. The condolences to Clara make it feel very real, very final, very tragic.

And then the scene with the Doctor. You see it begin in the apartment with granny, that her grief has turned her mind inside out, and that she is determined to go back and change reality. Of course she threatens the Doctor, because she knows he will never agree otherwise. The way she breaks down when the final key appears to go into the lava, and then when she (and we) realize the truth. Her face, as she says, calmly, “Absolutely fair enough.” She has lost Danny, and now she has lost the Doctor. It’s not hard to imagine her leaving the TARDIS to go jump off a bridge, or something. When the Doctor tells her why he will help her, I love that he doesn’t hug her, just tells her off and gives her a weird, meant-to-be encouraging smile.

The rest of it is perfect. (I think the opening was the more than perfect part!) Danny in the Nethersphere, determined to get to the bottom of what’s going on, and his breathless panic when he finally understands (and believes). His flashback scenes and his scene with the boy are wonderfully played as well. Seb is hilarious but in a rather creepy way, and Doctor Chang is wonderfully geeky (and frankly a bit stupid at the end).

And Missy is really, really great. The little snippets we have been given up to now haven’t really endeared me to the character all that much, but now Gomez has been given something to run with, and look at her go. She is fab in her first scene, where you knew something is up because she definitely isn’t acting the way she has in other episodes. The kiss is just brilliant, and I love the three kisses on the nose at the end. By now, the Doctor is pretty much catatonic– he’s really not a hugging and kissing guy! “I am in charge!” she says, seeming shocked that he would imply otherwise. “My heart is maintained by the Doctor.” He is suspicious. “Doctor Who?” Her sudden bellow, “Dr. Chang?!!!” This whole scene was played perfectly.

The scene with Dr. Chang is very light and oddly amusing, until suddenly, with “Is there a particular dead person you want to talk to?” the tone changes right back to intense, helped by a little bit of otherworldly background music. Then we are catapulted almost immediately back to Danny and Seb. I love the way the tension keeps building, so slowly, two steps forward and one back.

Great lines:
“We’re here to get your boyfriend back from the dead. So buck up and give me some attitude!”
“Tongues?” “Shut up.”
“We have Steve Jobs.”
“Why? Was he an idiot?”
The Doctor saying, “They’re just dead, and they’re not coming back,” as the skeletons start rising in their tanks!

The moment we see the skeletons revealed as Cybermen is very well done. From here on, the increase in intensity is perfectly done, as we simultaneously watch the Doctor figuring out the truth, and the emotional climax with Danny and Clara. I found Danny’s attempt to “save” Clara from death by repeating “I love you” very moving, because it was so understated. (I was a bit surprised that she didn’t twig it, but she’d been through a lot, and was trying to be skeptical.) And meanwhile, the Doctor is confronting the truth about Missy. She is great, the camp is turned down a few notches, and she is intense, sarcastic, in control. Actually, a perfect Master. And I don’t think we’ve seen the Doctor wear an expression like that one in a good long time, as he finds out who she is. He is shocked, horrified, frightened.

Just a marvelous ride. I was afraid of a let down, but so far, so good. Can’t wait for the second part of this!

[Arbutus @arbutus]

@cathannabel   I agree with your thoughts on the phone call. I don’t see this as a future Clara, but pretty much what we are shown: Clara trying to open up with Danny (and possibly including some truth that we aren’t privy to, either!)

@brewski     Yes, I was thinking of the security lock on my Toyota Matrix. You can’t start the car without the fob on the key chain, because it talks to the starter. So maybe with the TARDIS, you can snap your fingers as a shortcut, but not without the key in your possession. And yes, I’ve been thinking about the The Bells of St. John as well, strong similarity there with the uploading concept, and even Danny saying, “I don’t know where I am.”

@drben    I think the boy is real, because I think he has just walked up behind Danny in the last scene, and his presence is going to prevent Danny from deleting himself. My theory, not especially bonkers, but nevertheless.   🙂

@mudlark    Your vision of the dead rising up and looking for all the missing bits that now reside in museums just about choked me with laughter!

Oh, and I meant to ask, does anyone who “Xylo Jones” is?

[lisa @lisa]

@arbutus — re: xylo jones — I am posting this to you on spoilers since Im not sure if this
is the appropriate place but its very interesting info !!!! great find !!!!

[lisa @lisa]

btw- this is something I came across in my travels amongst websites — so how does the Master even
know that the Doctor has survived and been given a new cycle ? I suppose this really chapped his
hide !! I guess he felt he needed to escape from the time locked bubble using the Matrix to get to the
Doctor for the purpose of …. ? Plus I guess he must of been royally psst off about sacrificing
himself to Rasilon to help the Doctor send them back into that timelock

[lisa @lisa]

Why did the Master choose that body/form ? I think SM chose the Master just to do the
boyfriend bit. She did refer to the Doctor as her boyfriend. I know that regeneration
is supposed to change personality however I totally see Simms in Missy !
I am very anxious to know if the Master and Davros are in ‘cahoots’ in part 2 and
I am convinced that the Matriz is completely tied into everything — but then I was
completely convinced that Missy was Romana -ugh!

[WhoGirl @whogirl]

I like the idea that Clara was pregnant, and she was trying to tell Danny. This would explain how he has an identical ancestor astronaut whom she met earlier in the series. But then I also like the idea that perhaps she has three months to live and we will lose a companion in a cruel twist of fate that not even the Doctor could have forseen. But I don’t fancy being weepy for yet another Xmas episode!! 😉

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@lisa

how does the Master even know that the Doctor has survived and been given a new cycle

He travel to Earth and waited for about 5 minutes. The Doctor was bound to turn up.

[Brewski @brewski]

More thoughts:

. A lot of reference to burning in this series.

. When did the Doctor come to understand that Clara’s telepathic run of the tardis took them to Danny Pink? The last I remember he thought they were in Clara’s past. And Clara didn’t mention who the boy really was.

. @arbutus And yes, I’ve been thinking about the The Bells of St. John as well, strong similarity there with the uploading concept, and even Danny saying, “I don’t know where I am.” Oooh! Good catch!

. Missy was previously seen interacting with the “dead”. Yet here she is on the “outside” very much alive. (I think. :O)

. Could the Dark Water tanks have anything to do with the repeated mention of Clara’s ability to hold her breath?

[lisa @lisa]

@IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan you mean he/she is a stalker !!! nnnnoooooo very kinky-winky lol

[lisa @lisa]

How about this for a twist- Missy wants to help the Doctor rescue Galifrey using the Cyberman to
fight off the Daleks ? In which case that possibly means he/she captured Davros/Dr.Skarosa and has
him imprisoned inside a Cyberman ? Wouldn’t that be interesting ? [still working this 1 out]

Time to clear my mind for at least 20 minutes of this obsession — lol

[beancounter @beancounter]

@lisa

“How about this for a twist- Missy wants to help the Doctor rescue Galifrey using the Cyberman to
fight off the Daleks ?”

As I recall, the last time the Cybermen went head to head with the Daleks, the Cybermen lost by a wide margin. 🙂

[BadWulf @badwulf]

@brewski Could the Dark Water tanks have anything to do with the repeated mention of Clara’s ability to hold her breath?

That would certainly be “for the dads”, as the euphemism goes, since all non living inorganic material would be rendered invisible by the Dark Water, so all we would see would be skin.

And eyes.

Big, big eyes.

[Whisht @whisht]

@lisa – I actually had the same thought!

Basically, if The Master is on Gallifrey, he’ll know that the Doctor was given extra generations.
However, if he plots with the Daleks to escape the Time Lock (and if he managed to escape with Davros but tricked Davros into a Cyberman body… and my god, if they bring back Julian Bleach to play him, that will be delicious!).

But he knows he needs an army to harm the Doctor’s beloved Earth (and fill his army), protect him from the remaining Daleks and take over the Universe. And because its both grand, complicated and (Dick) dastardly.

Completely unrelated – Seb has a gold pin (of St Christopher?). Significant?

Oh and @drben – dark but very likely! Will this be Clara and Danny in Paradise at the end? Love and (yet) another couple in a closed-off world?!?

[ElleThePiff @ellethepiff]

This is fucking bullshit, the Master is the Master not the Mistress! All that character development wasted by Moffat.

[Spider @spider]

Aha! Utter bonkers theory: Danny is Adric! (it’s the Maths link that totally gives it away!). Sebs gold pin is actually Adric’s badge for mathematical excellence that Danny will steal back and use it to escape the Nethersphere but there will be a tragic end for  him when after he, Clara and the Doctor save the day and thwart Missys’s evil plans that he gets trapped inside St Pauls when it accidentally gets launched back in time to crash into the Earth and wipe out the dinosaurs!

😉

(\(\;;/)/)

 

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@beancounter

He’s a Time Lord, why not just go back in time and kill Doctor Who’s parents

Doctor Who?

Anyway, the answer is that The Time Lady Formerly Known As The Master doesn’t want to kill the Doctor. He always would have been rather disappointed if he’d actually succeeded in killing the Doctor (he said as much in Survival). She wants to play complex games with the Doctor – especially ones that involve the Doctor being tied up, or strapped down, or gagged … 😯

Not my idea. A few of the producers have said that, including Russell T Davies. 😉

[Spider @spider]

@ellethepiff well thank goodness you kept that to yourself.

I have to admit my initial reaction was, well not quite as strong as what you say, but that i hated that Missy is the Master. It’s not what I wanted to happen, I wanted something new not old villain dragged out yet again. I felt quite let down.

But after I thought about it more, read posts on here and rewatched things I changed my mind. It’s still not what I wanted to happen, but I’m no longer feeling let down about it and instead am very excited to see where this is going to go now.

I sense you might be at stage 2 of the 5 stages of ‘grief (if you don’t know what I’m talking about maybe go have a look at my post #34448).

(\(\;;/)/)

[Rob @rob]

 

Spillage on page 4

Could a responsible person bring a mop please

Was the Master a female earlier on post looking into the time vortex ( when the scene had a young male yet to be Master)

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@arbutus  It’s not so much that bits end up in museums (these days, in the UK at least, any human remains excavated have to be re-interred with suitable ceremony once they have been studied for pathology and demographic information); but when a graveyard was in constant use for many centuries every bit of it will have been dug over by the sextons many times, with graves cutting into earlier graves back to the nth generation, so things tended to get a bit muddled after a while 🙂

[DrBen @drben]

@bluesqueakpip – Anyway, the answer is that The Time Lady Formerly Known As The Master doesn’t want to kill the Doctor. He always would have been rather disappointed if he’d actually succeeded in killing the Doctor (he said as much in Survival). She wants to play complex games with the Doctor – especially ones that involve the Doctor being tied up, or strapped down, or gagged … 

Indeed.  It’s the common trope of the Hero and the Nemesis.  The Nemesis is defined by his/her relation to the Hero, and often they are viewed as two sides of the same coin.  There cannot be one without the other.  My favorite example is Peter Pan and Captain Hook – if one ever really defeated the other, they would have no more reason to exist.  (Or Robin Hood and the Sheriff of Nottingham – foreshadowing?)

Point being, the Master (Missy) doesn’t want the Doctor dead.  She wants him to always be there to witness her insane schemes.  That explains why the Master’s plots never seem all that thought out – rule the world, or whatever.  Because the only purpose is to attract the attention of the Doctor.

Apropos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJJW7EF5aVk

[Brewski @brewski]

@badwulf

That would certainly be “for the dads”, as the euphemism goes, since all non living inorganic material would be rendered invisible by the Dark Water, so all we would see would be skin.
And eyes.
Big, big eyes.

LOL! My what big eyes you have, BadWulf

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