Dark Water

Home Forums Episodes The Twelfth Doctor Dark Water

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    Craig @craig

    Cheers @phaseshift I have some even more scary pics! Always up for alcohol. Alcohol and dresses. 😀

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    Yes, indeed, our esteemed Emperor is looking very glam in that avatar.

    On another note, I see over at the Graun — I’m not even going to dignify it with a hyperlink these days, is drumming up more faux-outrage over the ‘dark’ subject matter of the episode. This has been something I’ve been gritting my teeth and trying to avoid all week. As many of you will know, the trend for manufactured or exaggerated outrage is one of those things that truly grinds my gears so I hope you’ll forgive me if I re-post what I’ve put on the Graun’s site…

    The faux-outrage over this story is deeply tiresome and sounds incredibly insincere and manufactured. OK, grief and bereavement is something we’ve all encountered, or will encounter, and it’s not pleasant. But it is a fundamental part of the human experience. As is love, hate, joy, misery. And they’re all perfectly valid subjects for drama, even fantasy drama. Otherwise it just becomes empty pantomime. Do we really want to go back to the days of rubber-suited pantomime villains bellowing ‘Powarrrr, Dok-torrrr’. I don’t think so.

    If you’re recently bereaved then it might be a good idea to avoid TV for a while, or at least be prepared that you might see a few things that will touch a nerve. But no programme maker or artist is under obligation to tiptoe around your heightened sensibilities.

    Certainly don’t wish to cause offence on here but this is Doctor Who, for goodness sake. Fear and horror and ‘darkness’ are a key part of its make-up. And I’d rather have some terror that has its roots and in profound human psychological terrors than merely some shallow body horror. Honestly, some people — well, nine of them (and presumably the same ones who were left spluttering at The Kiss in Deep Breath too — will moan about anything.

    Swims off to his dam, grumbling under his breath….

    geoffers @geoffers

    @craig – have you considered writing a show along the lines of a “who-y horror picture show,” by any chance? let’s do a time warp (and a gender regen), indeed… 😉



    As has been noted before, it Who isn’t giving 7-year-olds nightmares, it isn’t doing its job.

    My 14 year old nephew has still not been able to watch Waters of Mars – and when he tried a week or two back, his 7 year old sister put her hands over the eyes for the scary bits (unbidden, obv).

    TheBrainOfMoffat @thebrainofmoffat


    i just went back to investigate, and the hand on the picture frame is clara’s. as awkward as the angle is, it’s her right hand, and she’s pulling herself around the edge of the picture, as if she had been hiding just to the inside of it (to avoid the exploding dalek, i assume).

    That’s unfortunate. I was hoping it was Missy, because then it might explain why the 12th Doctor was there, supposedly helping to seal Gallifrey away, even though the Name of the Doctor‘s history had not yet been rewritten (such happening in Time of the Doctor, of course) to show that the Doctor didn’t die.

    Other things:

    1. I really don’t think that Clara is pregnant. I figure that the “three months” post-it note indicates how long she’d been traveling with the Doctor after Danny thought she had ceased. The call at the beginning of Dark Water seems, upon reflection, to be Clara’s very anxious confession, although for a good while I thought she was trying to figure something out, as if she didn’t fully remember the events of previous episodes and just wrote down the snippets she did remember. I’m still very open to that being the case, but I think I was just misleading myself (that’s quite an interesting thing to say, given my chosen user name).

    2. The Capaldi hair thing is probably just reflective of the actor’s hair style at the times the different scenes were shot. I remember reading about Matt Smith having multiple hair styles in the course of individual episodes, such as The Time of Angels. Such was not indicative of anything, and was really just a point of amusement, should the viewer notice it.


    In one way, then, their gender is redundant?

    Sure you don’t mean “irrelevant”? I’m not sure how being female, as opposed to male, or vice versa, could be considered redundant.


    I don’t think people age inside the TL matrix. So maybe Clara gives birth there and Danny and Clara raise Orson for 70 years or so, then the Doctor takes the baby into the real world with him.

    How could the baby go from the Nethersphere to the real world without a body to inhabit? o_O


    I’m still against a Clara pregnancy and will be disappointed if that is the case.  It would suggest (after Amy) that Moff believes that women are just baby-making machines.

    No, it wouldn’t. -_- Pregnancy makes for good drama, most women have children, and the best time to have a child is in one’s 20’s. We know that Clara likes children, and she’s in the latter half of her 20’s, if I recall, so it’s a good, realistic, time. I would like to see this kind of complaint about Moffat disappear, because it’s making a mountain out of a something that’s not even a molehill, and assuming that the writer is trying to propogandize. The only problem I would have with a Clara pregnancy would be that Moffat just used pregnancy as a plot device with the preceding companion — we don’t need another pregnant companion so soon, if only because it would seem “old hat”, as it were, even if something entirely different became of it.


    If there has been enough time for a memorial to be built, why is Danny only just now being inducted into the nethersphere?

    I was also wondering that…. I figure it’s just a true plot hole, and will never be referred to or resolved.

    DrBen @drben

    @thebrainofmoffat – No, it wouldn’t. -_- Pregnancy makes for good drama, most women have children, and the best time to have a child is in one’s 20′s. We know that Clara likes children, and she’s in the latter half of her 20′s, if I recall, so it’s a good, realistic, time. I would like to see this kind of complaint about Moffat disappear, because it’s making a mountain out of a something that’s not even a molehill, and assuming that the writer is trying to propogandize. The only problem I would have with a Clara pregnancy would be that Moffat just used pregnancy as a plot device with the preceding companion — we don’t need another pregnant companion so soon, if only because it would seem “old hat”, as it were, even if something entirely different became of it.

    It’s not a complaint about Moffat, because it’s only conjecture.  Seriously though, you don’t think that a showrunner having two consecutive female companions getting knocked-up would say something about that showrunner’s views on women?  Personally, I don’t think Moffat is sexist, and have defended him against such accusations before.  And I don’t think it’s an issue here, because I don’t think Moffat is going to do it.  But I think two pregnancies in a row would be problematic.

    You’ve actually hit on the bigger point, which is that, sexism aside, two pregnant companions in a row would just be lazy writing.

    Anonymous @

    @thebrainofmoffat  pls see my earlier posts where I discussed my comment about redundancy/irrelevancy

    JimboMcMaster @jimbomcmaster


    So the Master arranges a new set of lives for the Doctor before making an escape to torment the Doctor again.

    I like this idea very much. It gives a whole new dynamic to the relationship. Although, for some reason I’m not certain that the Master would admit it openly to the Doctor, other than maybe in a fit of rage.

    In addition, I like the idea that Romana teamed up with the Master to convince the High Council/whoever to grant the new lives, or to do a sort of ‘heist’ type thing to ‘steal’ them from wherever they’re ‘kept’. Moffat has been saying that they should make more proper minisodes like the Night of the Doctor. That story would make a great one.



    lisa @lisa

    2JimboMcMaster — I think you onto 2 brilliant notions both Romana having a contribution to the arc story
    and also more minisodes to fill into the in-between bits of Who!! I loved the 8th Doctor minisode and the fact
    that it borrowed from the 4th Doctor era – I’ve especially enjoyed all the references to past era Doctors
    though out this past season. It inspired my Tom-Doc avatar of course 🙂

    midnyt @midnyt


    “Any people who knew they could change sex at will would not choose a name like Susan for their child?”

    Clearly somebody who is not familiars with the oeuvre of Johnny Cash.

    Not to mention anyone who remembers this episode: 


    Arbutus @arbutus

    @drben   You’ve actually hit on the bigger point, which is that, sexism aside, two pregnant companions in a row would just be lazy writing.     I’m a woman and a writer, and this sentence makes me laugh! Because, shockingly, I have some sympathy for the notion that it matters not if Moffat is sexist, as long as he can write!

    Obviously, it is more complicated than that in reality. But as a society, we are frequently put in the position of deciding whether an artist’s work is tainted by what we know of their attitudes or beliefs. I generally fall into the camp of “I can love the art, and dislike the artist.” And just to be clear, I don’t think Moffat is sexist.

    @midnyt   Oh, great pull! Still laughing.

    Anonymous @

    I was watching Time Heist and wonder if Psi will be called upon in the finale? “if you need anything …another break out?”


    SpaceCadet @spacecadet

    I sure hope this is the first and last season for Capaldi and I say Sara needs to go too.  I’m so tired of the love saga between Sara and her boyfriend, if I want to watch that kind of stuff, I’ll turn on the Soaps.  After 25 years of watching the Doctor, I finally give up until they get rid of Peter and Sara.


    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    @spacecadet really you cant be much of a fan if you cant even get the characters name right.

    sniff sniff do i detect the faint aroma of troll or is it that your chosen name is very apt as in the 70’s meaning of the word .

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord


    Sara needs to go too

    I’d agree. If I could work out who Sara actually is.

    To answer @fatmaninabox from last week – “don’t you think our resident trolls look a bit, well, tired at the moment?”

    Anonymous @

    @spacecadet  hehehehehe. Awesome: I love this Forum sometimes. “Capaldi’s gotta go, so does Sara, Derek and the Irish lad”

    You’ve had too many ‘cookies’ haven’t you?  Naughty. They can give you a bad trip sometimes!

    @arbutus and others  interestingly that whilst some of the people I know at work don’t follow The Doctor all that much, they’re all up in arms at the idea a female character could or should be pregnant. I introduced them to ARSE but they didn’t get it. I fear that the concept of ‘entitlement’ is something way beyond them -and yet they live it (or they livid).

    lisa @lisa

    I’m still thinking since Clara said time could be rewritten and that she never existed that we are having
    another re-play of the Claricles
    Also, if Missy is the Master then possibly the twist is that the Cyberman in the tank in Dr Changs office –
    aka Dr Skarosa ? who had invented the Daleks but now has re-invented the new and improved Cybermen
    that can fly like Daleks ? Might lead to a team up between Missy and the Doctor to save London and the
    planet again ? but then what ? Well I still think we get more Missy next season….[.but I still like
    to see some Romana or River or Psi or Padernoster Gang]

    SpaceCadet @spacecadet

    Clara, Sara who cares!  I guess that is how much attention I’ve paid to the show this season. The show is rubbish and so are the characters.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Anyone seen Gandalf?

    lisa @lisa

    Would really like to see a Timelord named Gandalf ! and give him a companion named Frodo

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @lisa – no, Frodo’s really terrible with trolls. They bash him up something rotten. 😉

    lisa @lisa

    @bluesqueakpip oops! point taken – didn’t think that thru properly lol

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    lol @bluesqueakpip and @lisa

    Now for a bit of a bonkers thought and getting back to claras post-it note puzzle board affair at the begining of the episode, my first impression when i was watching and i cant quite shake it after a second viewing is perhaps clara knows somthing is wrong with her actions but could not figure out why. When she was on the phone to danny I think she had suddenly work or was close to working it out and wanted to discuss it but for some reason not with the doctor. Unfortunately i think I need to create a puzzle board of my own cause i for the life of me cant see what it was she was seeing i her potit notes.

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    I’ve taken the liberty of scrawling a note addressed to the BBC complaints department. I hope people who agree with it will print it out, add their signature, and do the decent thing.

    Dear BBC

    I write to complain in the strongest possible terms about Doctor Who Latest “Series 8”.

    Frankly, Peter Capladi, as the protagonist, Doctor Who (which is a tricky term itself) is a joy, a revelation. His “partner in crime”, Jenna Colman, has filled chez @phaseshift with warm thoughts. She is sublime, and has parried the thoughts of this latest Doctor with élan. I just wish someone could convince her to say “Book” in the way that my friend Alison from Blackpool says it, because frankly, it’s both deligtful and awesome.

    I thought the support players were uniformly excellent in their roles. I delight in Michelle Gomez as The Master/The Mistress/The Sweet transvestite from Transsexual Gallifrey. It just works. I admire her awesomeness. I love the kiss between Vastra and Jenny – I love the tenderness of their relationship underneath the bluster. I love the way the Doctor calmed down Jenna and gave her hope in this latest episode. I love the way the show can still deal with difficult ideas to the widest of mainsteam audiencies. I admire the bravery.

    I love it all, including the moon-egg, whose gravity operates over a limited distance! I have no idea why science fiction fans would be lamenting that idea when I dare them to name me a popular, ongoing science fiction show that doesn’t have a ship with artificial gravity. Apparently, saying “grav-plating” makes it all alright, so that’s a lesson for that writer, huh!?

    So – My complaint. Frankly, the trolls we had in Series 7 were much more entertaining. We’ve noticed a distinct repletion of themes, their plot lines are much easier to spot, and their characterisation is lamentable. They just aren’t as good as the trolls of yesteryear.

    Perhaps they need a new scriptwriter? Still, come on BBC, sort them out. What do I pay my licence fee for, etc.

    Bestest, @phaseshift.

    lisa @lisa

    I just has a additional bit of a theory to tag onto my above post- So if Missy does decide to help
    the Doctor it might be because she wants to steal the Tardis- maybe that was the ploy to use Clara ?
    Part of what is going on with the post-its maybe is that Clara realizes some stuff about her
    journey/existance and she is extracting the bits that all have very “impossible girl” implications
    – so she is finally ready to share it all with Danny and is told he is dead
    – that was why she has the meltdown with the Doctor – it might be a lot about Danny but also
    a lot about what the post it notes revealed – @bluesqueakpip I totally agree the post it notes are
    a ‘super’ clue re: Clara

    @phaseshift – we all know it takes all kinds of people to make the world but the Doctor will
    still love us just the same! 🙂

    lisa @lisa

    also meant to @devilirobby above- endless apologies !

    lisa @lisa

    On the bookcase where Clara has the post it notes there might be some other clues in the books
    or pictures – I know that the owl on the bookcase is symbolic of the all seeing eye/architect
    thru all of history according to the Mason’s mythology. it could also be the symbol of Clara’a
    enlightenment which is also owl symbology and fire is also part of the mythology representing
    illumination and in the mausoleum the sign that says rest in peace is in the shape of an obelisk
    which is another Mason power symbol — in any case it just occurred to me that all this Mason
    stuff I see in this episode is another reference to myth and legends in this series

    ScaryB @scaryb

    Ooooh, lots of lovely juicy theories, thanks everyone.

    @lisa and others – Post-it notes

    Well obviously Clara has stumbled into Steven Moffat’s workroom by mistake and is faced with massive spoilers of her own life, predestination paradoxes and a sneaky paranoia that she is being watched. And possibly controlled by an unseen presence! 😉

    For the various reasons set out by @bluesqueakpip, @drben and @thebrainofmoffat I don’t think Clara is pregnant, tho they might be teasing us a little with the possibility. @barnable‘s (welcome back btw) idea – raising a baby in the Nethersphere. For 70 years!!!  While it has the plus of originality and bonkersness – is just too many nappies and sleepless nights to contemplate. Moffat’s a parent, he will understand the true horror in that theory 😉

    I’m also not convinced that it’s a futureClara at the beginning, tho there’s just about enough wriggle room (change of clothes, no visible body for Danny) if they wanted  to spin that. I found the whole pre-titles scene an incredibly powerful depiction of grief, of how isolated it makes you feel as your world just stops, while for everyone else it keeps on turning at its usual speed.

    Re the tribute – I’ve seen flowers and tributes laid at accident scenes within a few hours, and the headmaster’s speech would most likely be the next morning.  There’s usually a few days between a death and a funeral so I’d say Danny’s got a little while to make up his mind. But only till he presses the Delete button. Then he’s doomed for cyberisation (and not just the metaphorical kind).

    @phaseshift – You seem to be in mighty fine feisty form tonight, sir!

    @jimthefish Good post, but you should know by now when you’re being click-baited. Seriously tho – 9 complaints? That’s an impressive amount of PR mileage for less than double figures moans!

    Belated thanks to @Purofilion for the jumper/shirt research (no, don’t see a link yet either), and very glad you got out of the closet 😉 And also to @pedant for his link to all that ARSEness in one place! (ROFL as the kids would say).

    And to @bluesqueakpip for Gandalf (took me a while!!)

    lisa @lisa

    Why does one of the post it notes say Jenny-apologies if this was already mentioned but might that be the Doctors daughter Jenny from Doc 10 instead of Vastra’s Jenny?
    Probably not but could Clara be a regeneration of that Jenny [possibly using the cameleon arch] ??
    @scaryb Maybe that has been the “unseen presense” and maybe Jenny/Clara was the one doc 11 found
    Maybe its why he loves her so unconditionally –in all his investigations of her he figured it out
    and maybe that is what Clara figured out too
    And folks — any thoughts about anything I ever put in any threads are always super welcome !!!

    janetteB @janetteb

    Still haven’t rewatched the episode so nothing new to add in terms of theories. (I am waiting until our youngest returns from a school trip as he left Sunday morning.)

    @jimthefish I have the article open but haven’t read it yet or responded but I will certainly recommend your post.

    @bluesqueakpip I agree with you and @Dr Ben re’ the pregnancy theory for most of the reasons cited and because I am still hoping that Orson will be explained by some timey wimey trickery, simply because it is more fun and I expect no less from S.M. 🙂

    I am with @miapatrick though in the question of the timing of the phone call. There was a degree of surrealism to that entire scene which reinforces the suggestions that the is something less straightforward happening. Also, I am sure it has been suggested but I don’t recall by whom so apologies, that the body on the road, which we don’t see, may be Clara. I also think that until he hits that button, Danny is still alive or has the option to return to life.

    @midnyt I forgot the horse is Susan!!! So timelords can species jump as well as gender hop. That could lead to some interesting regenerations in the future.

    @phaseshift Very well said..

    @Purofilion I hope that you are now fully recovered from the ordeal of the wardrobe. As long as there were no rebacks lurking in there.




    lisa @lisa

    Re: Jenny the Doctor treats her like a daughter and the first episode he made it clear he’s not her
    boyfriend – and finally he says to Clara he is exactly what she deserves – They deserve each other
    meaning ? Don’t parents always believe their child is always deserving

    Anonymous @

    @janetteb  indeed no redbacks but no exciting adventures to Narnia via a Troll’s camp either -the latter is happening in all dimensions. Happily, a number of school students are arguing delightfully over the plot in this latest episode and are well and truly engaged with their brains rather than endlessly thumbing their Play Stations and turning off their brains!

    Arbutus @arbutus

    Well, really. I step out for a few short hours to watch a volleyball match, and someone leaves the screen door open and lets the trolls in. Seriously, are there no responsible adults present?    🙂

    But there’s still @phaseshift, whose eloquent letter really says it all. And @lisa‘s bonkers speculation on the meaning of post-it notes!

    I agree with @scaryb regarding both future Clara and pregnant Clara, although of course, I was just sure that Moffat wouldn’t do anything so obvious as have Missy be the Master!

    I will say this: Peter Capaldi has proven to be my vision incarnate of Doctor Who heaven. He has been absolutely everything I could hope for in a Doctor. I love that he is less accessible, but to me he still exudes warmth, just not in the easy-to-reach manner of his predecessor. I love the wit, the gravitas, the impatience, the depth, and the intensity he brings to the role. I am really beginning to believe that he is my favourite Doctor since Tom Baker. Even if the final episode is a disappointment to me for whatever reason, I don’t think it will negate the complete joy I have taken in this series. I’ve never been a Moff-hater, but nor has he had my unreserved support; but I feel that since the anniversary special, he hasn’t missed a step. Which is not to say that every episode has rated 10 stars with me, but even my least favourites have rated high enough for enjoyment.

    Play on, series finale, can’t wait!    🙂

    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @geoffers The hand coming out of the portrait is indeed a right hand, but we are on Clara’s LEFT side and she’s fairly distant.  How could she wrap her right hand around her and reach the left edge of the portrait?  I can’t even get my hand a foot away from my left shoulder if I tried that and it’s uncomfortable.  It’s an impossibility.  It could be an error, but that’s a big error.  And why focus on that hand before shifting focus to Clara.

    Indeed, why show her climbing out of the portrait at all?  There was no need to show the Doctors climbing out.  We would have assumed when Clara appeared that she came with them from the portrait.  Why bother showing a hand?  Wouldn’t you be more likely to grab the bottom of the from with both hands instead?

    A screen cap for your viewing pleasure.  I think that is Missy.


    Anonymous @


    @apopheniac nice call on the pregnancy theory way back from KtM. I didn’t think Clara was pregnant until Dark Water. I was just trying to think of what would happen if the baby was born in the Nethersphere.

    @thebrainofmoffat How could the baby go from the Nethersphere to the real world without a body to inhabit? o_O

    The baby shouldn’t need a body, imo. Because I think the Doctor and Clara are real and alive since they arrived in the Nethersphere using the TARDIS. So if Clara is alive with her real body, then the baby should be real with a real body too.

    The delivery system back to the real world is dodgy though, but I’m going with the “leaf theory” (like Clara) or the Doctor could take it back in the TARDIS.

    @geoffers, @phaseshift, and @scaryb I can’t stop laughing at your posts. I don’t think there is anything left to support the BabyOrson-70/30 and Missy/Doctor/BabyClara theories – thanks to Geoffers and ScaryB shredding them in the funniest way possible. 😆

    @Purofilion – My babies-born-in-nethersphere theories are going down in flames, they were fun to think about for a while. I will just have to try harder next time. I hope boyillion is rooting for CyberDino like me!

    @phaseshift – I could never figure out what the Master wanted? I thought the Master was trying to piss-the-Doctor-off just for fun or something. But what you said makes more sense now. And the Master behind the crack-in-the-wall is interesting and explains Missy at the same time. That’s my runner-up to Bad Wolf now.

    Gandolf, Please Send Better Trolls! Besties, not-enough-nipples and “who-y horror picture show,”

    😆 😆 😆

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @macphisto96    I’m pretty sure that is Clara’s hand. Earlier in the episode, when she and the Doctor are looking at the painting, there is a clear view of her right hand, wearing what appear to be the same rings. I agree that the angle looks awkward and I can’t explain that, but I think it’s Clara’s hand.

    geoffers @geoffers

    @macphisto96 – i disagree.

    as i proposed before, perhaps clara was on the near side (inside) of the gallifrey painting, keeping back as the dalek was destroyed and propelled through the glass. after the doctors exit the painting, she grabs the edge to look through, still hiding behind that wall, to make sure the coast is clear (of dalek debris, or whatever other possible danger).

    try it with a doorjamb in your house. as you stand to the left of the doorway (the side nearest the camera in the gallifrey painting), grab the door frame with your right hand, lean out (don’t step, just yet) to have a look around, and as you poke your head further through the doorway (without letting go)… imagine there’s a camera right beside your hand.

    also, look at the scene with zygon-kate and the vortex manipulator (as i proposed before). screen grab when clara reaches, with the same right hand, to pick up kate’s phone, and you’ll see that the rings are the same, and the sleeve of her jacket is the same…

    i know you want it to be missy (and that would open up many cracking possibilities for the current story), but it’s not. it’s just a narrow focus angle, or whatever technical camera term applies, of clara’s hand as she’s leaning out of the painting…

    if you can screen grab one shot of missy’s right hand from this series, and she’s wearing those exact same rings, i will concede that you could be right. but, i’ve already looked, and missy only has one ring on either hand, and neither of them have that little “pearl” looking thing on them. they’re both flat bands…


    geoffers @geoffers

    @badwulf @thebrainofmoffat

    If there has been enough time for a memorial to be built, why is Danny only just now being inducted into the nethersphere?

    I was also wondering that…. I figure it’s just a true plot hole, and will never be referred to or resolved.

    danny’s consciousness has been lifted from his brain at the instant of death, and transferred to a machine. perhaps the gap between the transfer and his waking up in seb’s office isn’t instantaneous? perhaps there’s some processing to be done, or some checking to make sure his brainwave functions are stable enough? or whatever…

    or perhaps there’s just a whole lot of other dead peoples’ consciousnesses being processed, and he had to wait in the queue? like being stuck at the d.m.v.?

    or, the most probable thing: the tardis took clara and the doctor back in time a bit, to the mausoleum, at the very instant that danny woke up in the nethersphere…


    FlirtingDinosaur @flirtingdinosaur

    So here I am, barely awake, just to find that people want Sara to go?! This is outrageous! I mean, come on, what did Sara ever do wrong!?!

    also @spacecadet obviously you haven’t been paying attention way before this season, Clara has been at it for a while now ;D


    BadWulf @badwulf

    @geoffers or, the most probable thing: the tardis took clara and the doctor back in time a bit, to the mausoleum, at the very instant that danny woke up in the nethersphere…

    That would seem to be the sensible theory to go with in a show about time travel, but the Doctor’s words to Clara when instructing her to use the telepathic circuits were for her to think: “Where is Danny Pink now? Where is he now?”

    Thus, if the TARDIS has followed her guidance (and we do know that Sexy has a will of her own, so it is definitely an “if”), then there is a lacuna in Danny’s experience of existence, between “death” and reawakening in Seb’s office.

    @thebrainofmoffat ‘s theory also holds water, but plot holes can sometimes become narrative opportunities!

    BadWulf @badwulf

    @flirtingdinosaur I’m afraid that Sara was always fated to die! From the wikipedia article about her:

    As Steven watches helplessly, Sara ages and dies, her remains aging to dust.


    FlirtingDinosaur @flirtingdinosaur

    @macphisto96 @arbutus what if it is not Claras hand but one of a Clarnical. Maybe one that was on Gallifrey, saw the Doctor, didn’t know why, but knew who, so she followed out of the painting?

    Mudlark @mudlark


    I was just trying to think of what would happen if the baby was born in the Nethersphere.

    I think the Doctor and Clara are real and alive since they arrived in the Nethersphere using the TARDIS. So if Clara is alive with her real body, then the baby should be real with a real body too.

    My understanding, as outlined in post #34524, is that the Nethersphere where the dead arrive and the mausoleum to which the Tardis brings the Doctor and Clara are two distinct and very different environments.  The Nethersphere is, as Missy implied, a virtual environment within a section of Timelord matrix. The minds and personalities of the dead have been digitised, uploaded and stored within it ready to be downloaded again into physical cyber bodies once their emotions have been deleted.  The mausoleum where the bodies of the cybermen are stored is a physical place, apparently within St Paul’s but possibly (I suggest) in another dimension superimposed on the cathedral or connected to it by some kind of portal.  Electronic communication between the mausoleum and the Nethersphere is possible (hence Seb’s references to Wi-Fi ), but not the transfer of physical bodies, and when we see Missy greeting arrivals in the Nethersphere she is presumably present there as an avatar.

    If you look at the scene which Danny sees out of the window and from the balcony, it appears as a city covering the inside of a sphere, presumably reflecting the globular form of the matrix as seen in the mausoleum, but any setting, such as the garden where HFM arrived, could be simulated in realistic detail.


    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @geoffers If she’s leaning in from the side, it would work.  It’s just an awkward shot that has struck me as strange since I first saw it.  Part of the problem is we can’t see exactly what Clara is doing because of how high the shot is.  Always struck me as odd that it was focused on the frame like that instead of at a bit of a wider angle.  Still not sure if her shoulder is out far enough for it to work.  Mine goes out well past my chin (probably at least four inches).  Granted, I have broad shoulders, though I’m not sure a woman’s would be so much less substantial that the right shoulder would not clear the chin.

    Thank you for the suggestion.  Because of that, certainly tend to agree with you at this point.  It still strikes me as a strange shot and a strange choice as an action.  I’d only use my right hand in that situation if my left was incapacitated and I am a righty.  Shame.  The idea of Missy climbing out of that portrait was an interesting one.  I’m not sure if we’ll get any type of story about how the Master escaped either before or after Gallifrey was shifted to the pocket universe this week.  It seems there’s a lot of story to tell beyond that.

    Brewski @brewski


    I still think it’s no coincidence that both the Doctor and Clara are using no-tech methods of working out some kind of problem.

    I suspect the answer to the post-notes is the same as the answer to the chalk boards.

    Why the non-electronics?

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Been having a bit of a think on the Doctors apparent easy forgiveness of Claras actions with the Tardis keys. I am beginning to suspect he thinks or suspects theres something up with Clara and not all her actions are of her own volition.

    In addition his apparent not needing that much convincing to try and “rescue” Danny from death makes me believe that Dannys demise is not natural. Has the Doctor previously investigated Dannys time line,(given his apparent protectiveness of Clara and has been checking out her B/F), so he is aware that he shouldn’t have died and actually wants to investigate.

    To all those who have been speculating on various pregnancies and children being raised in the nethersphere heres another bonkers thought for you. If this were so as some have said the child would have no corporal body and would just be an intellect within the timelord matrix thingy… now i am sure some of you are possibly seeing where this line of thought is going hehehe… the child could possibly have become ta da….The Great Intelligence.

    Now listen to my reasoning some thing the doctor does causes Clara’s intellect to be uploaded to the nethersphere but continues to gestate the child which is born within the nethersphere. Because the nethersphere is timelord tech it enables the child to travel in time and the child has a grievance with the doctor because it has not corporal state so decided to take revenge on those it sees as responsible and goes back into the past and becomes the Great Intelligence. This would rather neatly explain the GI`s preoccupation with the Doctor…

    Ouch need much more coffee and perhaps painkillers for the headache this Bonkerising has given me.lol its all properly wrong anyway.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    Why the non-electronics?

    Because they both think the electronics are being tapped?

    I’d also enquire why Clara thinks she can’t say what she needs to say when Danny’s here. If we presume that Missy arranged Danny’s accident, then we should remember that the Master has form on tapping/sending messages through mobile phone networks. If she realised that Clara was about to tell Danny something vital, then the timing of the accident may have been … less than coincidental.

    He was killed before Clara could tell him that something was going on.

    Bonkers theory: Clara’s constant lying to Danny isn’t natural to her and that’s why it’s on her post its. She won’t be able to say what she needs to say when Danny’s here, because she’s figured out that – every time they’re face-to-face – she starts lying.

    FlirtingDinosaur @flirtingdinosaur

    @bluesqueakpip uuhh like a personaliced setting. maybe Missy hacked Clara when she was uploaded way back with the spoonheads and is sort of remot controlling her behaviour. But the real Clara is fighting back, that’s why she has so many emotions all at the same time. some of them hers, some of them what Missy programmed ;D

    (or it might just be because she’s a woman. we do that.)


    Otherstuff @otherstuff

    There are several people inside the nethersphere who are real (i.e. not dead) including the Dr. ,Missy, Clara, Seb, and the other  staff of Missy. Missy killed one so he wasn’t already dead. Therefore a child born in the nethersphere could leave with a Tardis or just walk out the front door it seems.

    FlirtingDinosaur @flirtingdinosaur

    @otherstuff I don’t think Clara and the Doctor are in the Nethersphere. The look at it from the outside (as the big ball hovering in the room). They are in the Cathedral (?) with the Cyberman, which could still be normal earth.


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