Dark Water

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    Otherstuff @otherstuff

    good point @flirtingdinosaur so would we conclude that Seb is dead as he pointed to his house, or perhaps that’s part of his stchick

    geoffers @geoffers

    @macphisto96I’m not sure if we’ll get any type of story about how the Master escaped either before or after Gallifrey was shifted to the pocket universe this week.  It seems there’s a lot of story to tell beyond that.

    i agree, in this series. i think we might get more hints this weekend (beyond “the one you abandoned, the one you left for dead”), but moffat will probably keep us in the dark for a long time about what happened to the master after his battle with rassilon, just to tease us. i’ve said many times, i do hope michelle gomez is committed to the next series, for one or two stories, at least…

    but look on the bright side… we get more opportunities for out-of-this-world theories! and that’s half the fun! 🙂

    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @geoffers I’m interested in discovering just how the Doctor abandoned the Master and left him/her (I’m assuming she was a he at that point) for dead.  He willingly attacked Rassillon and drove the Time Lords back into the Time War in The End of Time.  Did something happen in between that we haven’t seen.  As far as we know, 11 never encountered the Master – he had over 1,000 Master free years.  Must have been a nice respite.

    Could there be an encounter with the War Doctor after the Master returned to the Time War?  Could we see John Hurt again in the future?

    I also hope to see Michelle Gomez back next series.  Though we don’t know if any of the main characters are the reason for the next episode title.  Someone suggested somewhere that it would be interesting to see Missy be the Doctor’s companion in a season focused on returning Gallifrey safely from the pocket universe.  I’m not sure how that would play or if that could work, though I could see some kind of race to recover Gallifrey.  We’ll have to sort out what happens to Danny and Clara first.  I do wonder if Clara is going to make it out of this episode.  We saw Orson Pink, but that could just mean that Danny survives – and possibly travels with the Doctor (though why would he?).

    Wish I could just hibernate until Saturday night.  I want to see where this is going and see what other mysteries Moffat will leave us for Christmas and beyond.  Then comes the great wait until series 9.



    I don’t think we can trust anything Seb says.

    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    I’m still stuck on the idea that Clara is the Doctor and Missy’s kid in some timey-wimey manner 🙂

    I also still like the idea that somehow she’s already dead. It fits with the underworld theme.

    @phaseshift Lol at your letter and yes, I’d be delighted to dress-up for the calendar too in a long and multi-coloured scarf.

    @jimthefish I agree that death should be a suitable topic for children as well as adults – we are an unhealthily death-fearing culture, which just makes it harder, in the end.

    Hope everyone in the UK enjoyed the odd firework in the sky last night. Winter is coming.



    SpaceCadet @spacecadet

    I have watched every episode until Dark Water so I know about Clara’s exploits and I’m saying that I’m tired of it.  The show has become a soap opera and thus, I’ve given up on this season.   But I know that no Doctor or companion lasts forever so I’ll be back someday

    demafromua @demafromua

    Ehm… Guys? Ladies? @craig? I have something I am not sure how to accept. I have recently listened to Timelord Unbound stories and one moment has striken me the most – Time Lords regenerate into the opposit sex when they commit suicide. I got a hunch and rewatched both of Master’s AG deaths. And you know what? First time he refuses to regenerate, eventually comitting suicide. Then he ressurects, goes insane, takes over the world, brings Rassilon to play along and… sacrifices himself to kill (or at least stop) Rassilon. Selfsacrifice is a form of suicide, right? Which means, that Master had no choice – he had to become the Mistress. And now I wonder if SM if freaking genius that plans at least three seasons ahead or he is just very lucky SO(a)B with incredibly good memory.

    JimmyP @jimmyp

    Hi @everyone! Busy week so first time I’ve had chance to properly read through everyone’s thoughts and theories.  Loving it as ever, this series is culminating in some of the most bonkers theorising yet!

    I came away from the episode pretty sure that it was explained by Missy to the Doctor that the Nethersphere was nothing of the sort (i.e. not heaven, the afterlife etc) but a technical conceit created and maintained in TL matrix tech (that floating sphere). So people are uploaded to it, encouraged to delete their emotions (by Seb, who I agree has likely not said anything truthful as yet), and then are downloaded into waiting Cybermen. So the ‘don’t cremate me’ bit is a con and a scam, just like the Doctor says it is to Clara and Dr Chang.

    So if the Neth isn’t a real place, but a construct for the mind (like being pulled into the wifi) is anyone in there really dead? Surely if their ‘soul’ or consciousness is still alive and kicking, they can be pulled out of there and put into an appropriate receptacle.  I’ve got a feeling that far from going darker, we might be heading for a ‘sometimes everybody lives’ ending.  With the caveat I suppose that if they’ve been in there a while their bodies might not be in the best nick…

    JimmyP @jimmyp

    And whilst I’m online for a bit, my two-penneth worth on the phone call at the start is that there’s nothing timey-wimey going on. I interpreted the post-it notes as Clara organising her thoughts before speaking to Danny and nothing more.  Three months (as @thebrainofmoffat suggested) would refer to the time she’s been travelling secretly.

    Even the slightly unusual phrasing (‘these words are your’s now’) seems just to be her saying that she’ll never love anyone else again.  That’s a pretty big deal to say to someone you’ve been dating for less than 12 months (that’s my guess for the absolute maximum they’ve been together) – I love you and I never want to love anyone else; I want to be with you and only you forever.

    I think the whole scene was just meant to emphasise how much Clara was committing to that relationship (stopping lying even!) and to really drive home the utterly tragic timing of what happened next. It also ‘justifies’ the level of grief and desperation we see from her.

    The pregnancy thing doesn’t float for me for many of the same reasons as other people (especially that they’ve just done it with the last companion).  Most of all though, she wouldn’t commit suicide if pregnant and throwing that last key away at the volcano was tantamount to killing herself.


    Anonymous @

    @mudlark  Missy greeting arrivals in the Nethersphere she is presumably present there as an avatar.

    In other words, Missy is real and could have a way of projecting herself into the Nethersphere virtually (linking her consciousness). I agree that is the best and most logical explanation, so your explanation is most likely, but other options provide some interesting possibilities that I just can’t resist.

    Your theory about the Nethersphere and the Mausoleum being two separate places (one real, the other virtual) is probably right. The best evidence that it is not the case is:

    We have seen Missy, Seb, and PCSO all in the same place at the same time. That could be explained many different ways, but here are my favorites:

     I was thinking a real person could exist in a virtual place when talking about Clara having her real baby born inside the TL matrix/Nethersphere. It is similar to the BG story The Mind Robber, because I think the Doctor/Zoe/Jamie were “alive and real” in a fictional place for that story. That might be a close example to what is happening now.

     So Missy could be real and have some way to physically enter the Nethersphere (miniaturization, transmat, teleport, or her own Tardis)


    The Nethersphere and Mausoleum might both be real and just be different dimensions, like we see in Army of Ghosts/Doomsday, where the sphere (Dalek void ship) was in the void-space-dimension but it was visible in the real dimension at the same time. We never saw what the inside of the Dalek-void-ship looked like so it might be just like the Nethersphere. Real Daleks were inside of that sphere, so Danny could still be alive in the Nethersphere too?

    My favorite Bonkers theory is:

     Each person has their own Nethersphere and they create what it looks like based on their imagination. That would mean the Mausoleum and Nethersphere really are different places (similar to your theory), but they are both virtual places with virtual people (but with kissable physical forms 😉 ). So Clara and the Doctor could be imagining how Missy’s world (mausoleum) would look and with Danny in a separate Nethersphere.  And Danny is imagining what the inside of that Nethersphere looks like?


    The Mausoleum could be Missy’s Nethersphere that Missy Master has imagined, and brought Doctor and Clara to it in an attempt to escape?

    Now I only need someone to imagine CyberDino!!! 🙂

    Anonymous @

    @jimmyp  ah ha. The trolls are gone and we have some excellent theorising this morning.  I like your idea about the lack of timey-whimey behaviour as Clara speaks to the Dr. Indeed her grief, together with the ‘over-night’ collection of flowers and the setting up of a memorial with the principal’s message to the staff and students at Coal Hill would occur as early as the next day and Dan’s body would be ‘waiting’ for the next stage: funeral followed by…cremation. I’m with you on the ‘con’ or ‘racket’ as well -the Dr furiously (in true Doctor style @arbutus ) called Dr Chang on that also.

    I do wonder about Clara’s exact choice of words: “these words are yours now and you’re the last person I’ll say them too”. I know I’m paraphrasing but the words “I love you” were in the context of a lover -and I understand this, but it sounded like a foretelling, as if she, Clara, would never speak again, much less to Dan. She loved her granny and I would think she would say “I love you” to her, at least. Again, the context is different and yet rather than focus on the words “I love you”, I’m intrigued by the second portion of her phrase. It may signal she won’t be ‘back’ and knows this with certainty. Or as others like @juniperfish postulate, Clara may be dead or totally aware of a situation, that, for whatever reason, has been manufactured for protection including an awareness of someone hacking the Wi-Fi causing the need for the Dr’s mathematical chalkboard musings.

    @jimthefish and @phaseshift  excellent thoughts and letters/posts. I agree nothing is the same anymore, even the trolls are poor quality.  We must invite the cleverer ones in -that, or have them eaten.

    @demafromua  welcome back! A good theory. One I hadn’t thought of.

    @arbutus totally agree re-the Dr, a marvellous actor, totally on point, not missing a note.  Believable, rich in tone and expression, mischievous and precise, loving his planets, adoring a mystery, properly frightened of his ‘mistress’. A great ride all the time.  In re-watching parts of different episodes, I was astounded by his range of facial expressions, moods, his sincerity about the most difficult of issues -Clara’s betrayal of the Doctor’s trust and his unconditional love for her and even his understanding, rather than remoteness, of her loss. After all, how many people has the Doctor lost and mourned. We think that Rose ‘got the guy’ but the Doctor still lost Rose, just as he lost Donna. And countless others, both good and bad. I think he’s more caring than we may choose to see. The hard exterior melts but stays in control. I like that. It gives me faith and causes me to trust his decisions: “Do as you are told”

    Kindest, puro.

    Anonymous @

    eek *to not “too – morning typing. Thoughtless!

    Apopheniac @apopheniac

    Hello @demafromua

    Interesting thoughts about self-sacrifice and suicide, and The Master.  Even more interesting when it is put in context of what the original theories were about HFM and Gretchen, and how/why they were scooped up by Missy:   Because they sacrificed themselves for the sake of The Doctor.

    If any of this is true, it could be something SM dreamt up for this recent series, and fiendishly cleverly, drew it back to RTDs way of saying goodbye to The Master all those years ago.

    Hello @barnable

    So Missy could be real and have some way to physically enter the Nethersphere (miniaturization, transmat, teleport, or her own Tardis)

    My vote is for miniaturisation, because of the repeated use of that method of “travel” throughout this series.  And also, one of the highlighted post-its said “Miniature Clara”.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @apopheniac – I think that’s a good spot. Yes, Missy sacrificed herself for the Doctor – and the people who get special little chats from her are the people who sacrificed themselves for the Doctor.

    That would certainly explain why Danny got Seb. He may be closely connected to the Doctor, but he didn’t sacrifice himself, so doesn’t rate that ‘special little chat’.

    Whisht @whisht

    Sorry – been busy but lurking-at-lunchtime (and breakfast!).

    Noticed the recent poor level of trollisming and made me think that its not so different on different forums….

    So, a Dr Who/ Arsenal ARSE template…

    I’m a long time fan, I started watching Dr Who/ Arsenal during Tom Baker/ Liam Brady’s reign.

    I’ve been a huge fan of Moffat/ Wenger for what he’s done – he’s really taken us somewhere new and laid the framework for the future, while making the last 10 years amazingly successful.
    But…. but….

    This last season has been the WORST I’VE EVER SEEN!

    I’m sick of the false narratives, where relationships and narrative arcs are more important than individual episodes/ matches.
    Why can’t a monster/ manager just be a monster/ Tony Pulis?!?

    The companions/ players should be great together but are terrible. I guess there’s always been a bit of having an attractive companion/ player like Jenna Coleman/ Oliver Giroud but in this day and age its prehistoric and they’re merely there for the dads/ for the dads.

    And don’t get me started on the overt gay agenda. Why must they RAM IT DOWN OUR THROATS?? This is a kids show/ afternoon match!!
    All this kissing and jumping on each other after defeating the monster/ beating Stoke – its just disgusting!

    Also this OBSESSION with defiling religion is sickening – why a whole season of a Lonely God/ Welsh Jesus??

    Overall the acting/ playing this season has been appalling!! He’s managed to turn it into a soap opera/ soap opera.

    Basically Moffat/ Wenger has destroyed my memories of childhood and everything I hold dear in the world – MOFFAT/ WENGER OUT NOW!!!!!!!!!!

    Sorreee if for my bad Inglish – sorry as is me my language is not first Inglish*




    * I REALLY hate this from trolls – I work with loads of people whose first language is not English and they always apologise, yet their English is always excellent (and embarrassingly I have no second language).

    This troll-trait is an example where ‘winding people up’ actually hurts people (not only “people-I-won’t-meet”) whose first language is not English, as their earnest and honest ‘admission’ make them sound like trolls.

    The real problem with trolls is that they kill trust between people – they make us doubt and suspect rather than approach new people with open minds.
    As soon as Trolls care, they stop being trolls – and that’s why I don’t join in the troll bashing. Its part of ‘the game’ which only fuels it with a laugh and a wink. Instead I want to slap the fuckwit hard enough to shame the idiot so that they don’t want to do it again.

    ah well, that’s enough from me – up the ARSE!

    lisa @lisa

    @whisht I only wish to comment back about the religion aspect– to be honest I have found it extremely
    refreshing to see how they have handled religion this series- as NOT sacred – as myths and legends
    which is what religions are essentially – I think the way religious belief has been handled this season
    has been effective and excellent!
    I hope to see a lot more of this view everywhere in the future ! not just on TV ! IMHO it is all the
    religious nonsense that has caused most of the troubles we see in our world now anyway so a little more
    ‘defiling’ is to be perfectly honest REALLY ok with me

    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    One thing that recently struck me in going back and looking at our other encounters with Missy is how those that “went to heaven” in prior episodes would not serve well as Cybermen.  The first was a clockwork droid.  He was a kind of cyborg since he had used organic replacement parts over time, but he is an ill fit for having his consciousness popped into a Cyberman, especially since he doesn’t have a brain.  The other two humans were both essentially incinerated or disintegrated.  It seems like Moffat made sure we got to see what happened to each.  The soldier would have been turned into goo while we see the severely charred remains of the police officer.  They look like charcoal.

    It’s possible that Missy can put a consciousness into a dug up body, not just into the original body.  That’s a pretty grim prospect.



    Brewski @brewski

    Because they both think the electronics are being tapped?

    That’s what I’m wondering.  Just now sure how it fits in. Maybe the whole wifi/taking people over thing?

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    It’s possible that Missy can put a consciousness into a dug up body

    I’d say that’s a cert. She does clearly want some ‘fresh’ bodies to be made into Cybermen, but I don’t think Seb would be so keen to hand the ‘burners’ the delete key if they couldn’t use those people’s consciousness.

    If you think about it, how many ‘delete’ recruits are they going to get from people who know they’re going to be peacefully decomposing? So there’s a mismatch: the people more likely to want their consciousness cyberised are the ones facing the prospect of spending an ‘interesting’ couple of hours at 1000 degrees C.

    But they won’t be the ones whose bodies can be used.


    It’s probably best to be aware that this is a forum of widely ranging views. The Rose and Crown is the place for polite and reasonable discussion about religion.

    Personally, I’d say that while it’s fine to put forward the suggestion that religion has ’caused most of the troubles we see in our world’ (fine, that is, if you want me to explain at length why I believe that view to be mistaken), describing religion as ‘nonsense’ and suggesting that ‘a little more
    ‘defiling’’ is ‘ok’ is likely to result in my becoming … devastatingly logical.

    There may even be sarcasm. 😉

    Incidentally, the Vicar and I were chatting about Dark Water on Sunday. We both thought it was a brilliant episode. 😈

    ScaryB @scaryb

    Had a rewatch last night and went thro a complete Danny banging his head on the table moment!

    As @mudlark pointed out – we know exactly where and what the Nethersphere is. It’s a slice of the Timelord matrix which is currently shaped like a sphere and is hovering in the place which is hosting the cybermen cases, and currently disguised as St Paul’s. (I realise everyone else probably got this, but I missed it completely the first time around.  They couldn’t have been more explicit if they’d stuck a post-it note on it! D’oh!!)

    So yes, the question is whether people are transferred as a consciousness or are miniaturised. I’d suspect consciousness because of the nature of the matrix, but there again there’s been a theme of miniaturising this series, as we’ve already noted. (So… any chance of a return of River Song – she’s good on the virtual spaces (and we haven’t necessarily yet seen the significance of her final “Spoilers!” in Name of the Doctor).

    @lisa @bluesqueakpip

    On the subject of religion – I thought this episode, and DW consistently, was very respectful, and careful not to discredit anyone’s belief, or disbelief, in an actual afterlife. We are very specifically told by Seb that this isn’t the actual afterlife, “just more life than you were expecting”. The show will attack the charlatans who use religion for nefarious purposes, but not the actual belief system or people who believe it sincerely. I think we on this forum should do the same.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb – the last time we saw the Timelord matrix, it was the consciousness that was uploaded.

    The thing that has made me wonder about miniaturisation is that the Master used to be a bit of an expert at the old tissue compression thing. If they don’t want to go for ‘Danny is dead’, they could have used miniaturisation at the scene of the accident, followed by a clone corpse. We’ve seen both this series.

    Though if Missy’s keeping people alive to be nice, then who is she and what has she done with the Master? Nope, there’d be a nefarious reason for Danny not to be dead. 😉

    Regarding religion: Moffat has been so extremely respectful this series that I’ve been seriously wondering whether the bugger’s gone on an Alpha Course. 😈

    Anonymous @

    @scaryb – Argh! Danny Pink Migraine here… River Song! How did I not think of that before now?!? I even remember reading that posted a while ago (I think?), but I forget who might have said it. I was on the fence about a River Song return before, because I didn’t think they could do it in a way that didn’t seem like total pandering and cheesiness.

    But now… Where else would River be at, other than the Nethersphere? It is perfect.

    River Song has replaced CyberDino on top of my DWwish list now (but I still want that too 😀 ).

    ScaryB @scaryb


    Ah yes, the Master’s Tissue Compressors – you are right.

    they could have used miniaturisation at the scene of the accident, followed by a clone corpse

    Or teleportation of some sort. There’s definitely a get-out with us seeing neither the accident or Danny’s body. Don’t get me wrong, I think the scene works really well with a literal interpretation, but again there is scope for something else to be going on. Missy’s not being nice! I do hope she isn’t killed off at the end of the finale/Christmas epi (I do think we’re in for a major cliffhanger on Sat 😈 )

    LOL at your Moffat comment – maybe he’s been replaced by a double/clone/avatar and the real Moff is being held prisoner, locked deep in the Nethersphere by Missy who is demanding he doesn’t write her out at the end of this series 😉

    (btw way did you notice that last weekend was the 46th anniversary of the Tomb of the Cybermen?)

    @barnable Hehe – go CyberDino 😀

    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @scaryb I agree completely on Doctor Who being quite respectful of religions.  I recall the respect the Doctor showed to the Muslim doctor in the God Complex and also the respect shown in The Rings of Akhaten towards that people’s belief system.  When Clara asks him about whether life did originate there, he said it was what they believe and a nice story.  Here we have a time traveler that knows what really happened – or at least could know, but he’s respectful and seems to admire the people and their belief.  Same for the Muslim Doctor and then earlier we find him hiding with Monks.  It’s an endearing quality of the Doctor, at least in the past.  I think #12 may be more likely to call something rubbish or nonsense, but Matt Smith’s Doctor definitely exuded a lot of empathy.  Yet the show as a whole is very respectful, more respectful than much science fiction has often been.  I think that is one of the many aspects that make it enduring – there are many.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    The other thing that struck me on rewatching was that the Doctor suspects/knows that Missy is a Timelord at least from the moment she puts his hand on her heart(s) – he just finds it very hard to believe, and is maybe trying to work out which one of several bad options she could be. She seems very unlikely to be one of the (very few (were there any??)) good ones. It’s portrayed as shock at the physical contact – his hand stays in position long after Missy has moved away – but is clearly open to the interpretation that he’s in shock at the double heartbeat.

    @macphisto96 Muslim Doctor…??? I missed that – remind me. But I agree, and I think it’s part of the reason for the show’s longevity. It’s the same with politics – both right and left have claimed the Doctor for their side, with reasons to back it up. That open-endedness leads to lots of opportunities for discussion.

    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @scaryb I think she was a Resident at a hospital.  But she willingly let the beast take her and was scared of losing her faith.  Was a good character in The God Complex.  I think she was the last to die before the Doctor cracked it – and he pleaded with her because he wanted to save her.

    PhileasF @phileasf

    Re various speculations about living people in the Nethersphere.

    In the BG series, a living person’s brain can be connected to the Matrix. On the occasions we saw this happen, they didn’t interact with the dead people who’s minds are in the Matrix, but there was nothing to say that couldn’t happen.

    So Missy, Seb, and anyone else could be outside the Nethersphere but projected into it.

    In theory, the Doctor and Clara could even be plugged into the Nethersphere, and the floating Nethersphere ball they saw could be an illusion of the Nethersphere inside the Nethersphere…

    TheBrainOfMoffat @thebrainofmoffat

    Ok, after seeing that screencap of the hand in Day of the Doctor, I definitely think it’s Clara’s, and she’s actually turned toward the camera — a fact concealed by whatever she’s grabbing. I’m still wondering how it makes sense for 12 to turn up in that episode, though, and what he might be there for if his presence isn’t necessary to “pocket” Gallifrey. Hopefully Moffat will return to that, and maybe it has something to do with Missy.

    Also, the Nethersphere is the sphere, or the virtual world contained in the sphere. Hence why I asked about a baby… coming out of it. But speaking of babies, the only thing I would conceivably count as evidence of a Clara pregnancy is the line from the female astronaut in Kill the Moon, concerning children.

    I had more, but fatigue keeps wiping it from my consciousness. That, and the fact that I want to respond to so many posts all in one go. T_T

    Anonymous @

    @lisa   mm… on religion. What @bluesqueakpip said. I too have raved  have discussed how religion has not necessarily caused all the problems in the world as many dilettantes like to claim these days.

    @whisht  bloody hell. I spat out my lime- juice- slushy- with- vodka- afternoon- drink!

    Another keyboard bites the dust.

    Massive work in your response and I will also avoid any future acknowledgement of trolls. Cheers to you. Superbly done!

    stormintheheartofthesun @stormintheheartofthesun

    So I was thinking about the three words in this episode. The master/mistress is using human’s natural fear of death and the unknown to manipulate them to his/her own ends. And this is not the first time he’s done that. Remember the Toclafane. He basically did the same thing to them.These were humans at the end of the universe that were searching for utopia or paradise. Sounds a lot like the theme for this season doesn’t it? It’s not clear if he regressed them to a child like state or if they did it to themselves and he just came in and took advantage of the situation but he turned them into his weapons to carry out his evil plan. Here he/she is doing the same thing. It does seem highly likely that the work of Dr Skarosa (you can’t tell me that isn’t the female version of Skaro) is fiction created to get bodies for the Cybermen army Missy is trying to build. Some how Missy’s plan seems to involve Clara, she needs her somehow. I would bet money that she staged Danny’s “death” to use him as a bargaining chip for some aspect of her plan. We the audience have seen no visual confirmation that he truly died which you would expect with a true character death. I’m interested to see what Missy’s end game is, obviously she doesn’t want an army of Cybermen just because it’s cool. I just hope it’s a little more imaginative than take over the world.

    On another note, nothing has been mentioned about the drums. It seems plausible that since they were sent by Rasillion, they stopped at the resolution of the Master’s last appearance. I would like to hear some discussion of that in the next episode since they were such a huge part of the Master’s character. What is it like if she really doesn’t hear them anymore? What drives and motivates her now? Is she still crazy or just evil without them? Truly can’t wait til Saturday!

    stormintheheartofthesun @stormintheheartofthesun

    Another thought, the Nethersphere even looks like a Toclafane. Small floaty sphere thing. Hmmmm



    Apopheniac @apopheniac

    Hello @stormintheheartofthesun

    Another thought, the Nethersphere even looks like a Toclafane. Small floaty sphere thing. Hmmmm

    In response to that comment and your previous one, tying the similarities between what we see physically of The Nethersphere and the plot of Utopia (v good btw!), I had a search because I thought I had said something similar.  It took a while (because I dont seem to have consistency in spelling toclafane/toclaphane, but I finally found it:


    I didn’t see anywhere in the Into The Dalek thread that anyone thought the antibodies looked like the Toclaphane [spelling?] from The Sound of Drums.  There was talk about a resemblance to the eyes on Clara’s shirt but their movement and size were very Toclish to me.

    There are two of us now to push this meme! Lets run with it.   🙂

    Anonymous @

    @demafromua now I wonder if SM if freaking genius that plans at least three seasons ahead or he is just very lucky SO(a)B with incredibly good memory.

    Welcome Demafromua, I’m going with SM genius on that one! 🙂

    Good points about the sacrificing connection to Missy. @apopheniac’s idea that SM has been riffing on a thread left over from RTD fits his style and is no accident, imo


    I’ve got a feeling that far from going darker, we might be heading for a ‘sometimes everybody lives’ ending.  With the caveat I suppose that if they’ve been in there a while their bodies might not be in the best nick…

    That was one of the endings I’ve wanted to happen, since it’s one of the few ways left for the Doctor to keep his promise to the dinosaur. But now you reminded me that the dino’s body is floating down the river, so I can probably scratch that off my list. 🙂

    @thommck told me the same thing earlier, but I just now connected the two ideas. D’oh!

    Three months (as @thebrainofmoffat suggested) would refer to the time she’s been travelling secretly. The pregnancy thing doesn’t float for me for many of the same reasons as other people (especially that they’ve just done it with the last companion).  

    I agree that one of the Three months post-its refers to travel time with 12, but did you notice there were two Three months post-its? I think the 2nd one is explained by pregnancy (or at least another reason like terminal illness?)   Repeating the pregnancy story too soon is an off-screen reason (which is valid, but I try to avoid those most of the time).

    When the Doctor says that Clara is “Quite a mess of chemicals,” could mean pregnancy too.

    Most of all though, she wouldn’t commit suicide if pregnant and throwing that last key away at the volcano was tantamount to killing herself.

    This is an excellent point. That one reason alone crushes all the supporting evidence. However, there is still a chance Clara was in temporary insanity, when she threw the keys away, so I think there is still a chance for pregnancy.

    But I think the dinosaur is coming back, so I see… 😕

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Might the reason The Mistress/Master seems to have fixated on a heaven theme and using the “souls” of the recently departed, I do wish there was a better term, be because in the End of Time story he was essentially resurrected from actual death. Maybe the reason has something he experienced whilst he was “dead” before. In the End of time was he a bit peculiar and not just bat crap crazy, i.e: the insatiable hunger and the ability to throw lightning from his hands, was this because he was actually undergoing a regeneration kicked off by his resurrection and with a gender change perhaps this created the bizarre results seen. This would be in keeping with when 11 seemed to have been made young again before transforming into 12.

    JimmyP @jimmyp

    Haha @barnable, I too would love the dino to come back! A super-sized T-Rex is pretty cool even when just standing around in the Thames, but it would be even cooler to have it on the rampage and smashing down Cybermen like skittles!

    Perhaps there’s still a chance; how about this: people (and dinosaurs) that have appeared to die in this series have actually been miniatuarised (which seems a bit of a ‘thing’). Some fake remains have been deposited to maintain the ruse, but they’re all alive in the Nethersphere (/TL matrix).

    All the Doctor and Clara have to do is de-miniaturise them (reverse the polarity??) and they’ll come crashing out that floating orb ready to take revenge on Missy and the Cybermen!

    Et voila! Everybody lives, including your favourite dino!

    Mudlark @mudlark


    You argue that the Heaven/afterlife in which HFM, Gretchen, the PC and Danny find themselves might be real because

    We have seen Missy, Seb and PCSO all in the same place at the same time

    But that argument is easily countered. Missy is an avatar projected into the virtual world, Seb is either another such avatar or a virtual construct, and the others are present as uploaded conscious minds tricked into thinking that they have bodies in a virtual environment which is possibly tailored to suit their own preconceptions.

    The nature of the Nethersphere (which you will note is indeed spherical 🙂 ) was (to me) made abundantly clear  in the dialogue between Missy and the Doctor.

    Missy:  ‘The Nethersphere ….. the people who live inside there think they’ve gone to heaven’.

    Doctor:  ‘…a Matrix data slice; a Gallifreyan hard drive; Time Lord technology’.

    Missy:  ‘Imagine you could upload dying minds to that; edit them, rearrange them, get rid of all those boring emotions, ready to be downloaded. Meanwhile you upgrade the body. … Cybermen in cyberspace’.

    What is being discussed here is the equivalent of a computer, though one with vastly greater potential than anything yet devised by human ingenuity since it is capable of storing and processing the information in millions (?) of human minds.   The Doctor uses the term ‘hard drive, though presumably that is for the benefit of us pudding brains and the analogy is not exact (we can speculate on the nature of the technology – manipulation of quantum states? some very advanced  form of cloud computing?)

    This being the case, the idea that everybody who finds themselves in the Nethersphere has simply been miniaturised and inserted into it, as discussed by you and @apopheniac , doesn’t really hold water.  After all, even if it were possible to miniaturise someone to the extent that they could be inserted into a computer hard drive, all they would be able to perceive would be the hardware;  they would not be able to read or make use of the information stored on it.  The miniature people exploring the interior of the Dalek were in the Dalek hardware, not in its organic or cybernetic mind.

    What it boils down to is that I don’t see how anybody or anything could be physically present in a computer generated environment which essentially consists of pure information without tangible substance. I don’t think that the Mind Robber scenario is directly comparable, either.  As far as I can recall, the Doctor, Jamie and Zoe were trapped in a null dimension outside normal space-time, not in cyberspace.  Insofar as there is any similarity it is that their  living minds and those of the disembodied minds in the Nethersphere were both being manipulated.

    The Nethersphere/Matrix data slice is within, or at least visible within the mausoleum where the cybermen await activation following the downloading of the edited minds from the Matrix into the upgraded bodies. Missy says nothing to imply that the bodies being upgraded and the completed but dormant cybermen are not present in the physical form in which we see them, and the mausoleum has enough of  the characteristics of a physical environment to support the presence of the Doctor and Clara.  The cybermen. the Doctor and Missy, when they emerge from St Paul’s, are full size and fully corporeal.  For me, the only question is how the physical space of the mausoleum relates to the physical space of St Paul’s.  Is it contained within a Tardis as someone suggested (sorry, I forget who), or is it in a separate, superimposed or linked dimension or space?




    FlirtingDinosaur @flirtingdinosaur

    @otherstuff I’m with @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan on this one. Don’t trust Seb. For all we know he was never really alive. Maybe he is just a droid/Interface Missy created to take care of the paperwork.


    I think the Nethersphere inside that Gallifrey technoligy is a virtual place and that only the peoples consciousness is uploaded. That’s why it can look like anything. Sometimes just an office, sometimes an office with a absurdly long white corridor for Missy to look creepy. In addition, the ones who sacrificed themselfs for the Doctor (or at least while being with the Doctor) get special treatment. They’re not only greeted by Missy herself, they get an extra cosy environment too (aka the park / tea room).


    @barnable fingers crossed that River comes back riding the Dinosaur ;D


    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @demafromua I do think Moffat thinks ahead, at least concerning major plot points and arcs.  I think he knew where the Silence Will Fall arc was going, he just didn’t know how long it would take to get there (Matt Smith probably had a lot to do with this if Moffat always intended it to close the 11th Doctor’s story).  I think the same with River Song.  He probably didn’t have her well developed when he introduced her during RTD’s era, but I tend to think he had an idea who she was when he introduced us to Amy and Rory.

    I wonder at what point he turned his eyes upon Series 8 and the return of the Master.  Probably at some point during Series 7.  It’s been interesting reading about different script writers who are given an idea to work with, but also a few things they need to incorporate into the script.   There’s a lot of freedom on one hand to let them resolve the plot of the story, but Moffat clearly knows where the show needs to go.  It has also sounded like he scripted all the Missy bits building to the end.

    Reading up on this season, it is clear that Moffat had the beginning and the end before everything else was done.  Jamie Mathieson blogged that he had read the last two episode scripts before he wrote Flatline and Mummy on the Orient Express.  Moffat wanted the writers to know where the show was going, probably from both a plot point and a character development point.


    ScaryB @scaryb

    Good points @mudlark

    I still can’t believe it took me a second watch to pick up on the dialogue (which you quote above) about the Nethersphere ie exactly where/what it is.

    You say –

    a virtual environment which is possibly tailored to suit their own preconceptions.

    Great stuff. HFM gets something that looks like his “promised land” (a beautiful garden), Gretchen gets welcomed with a cup of tea and the PC and Danny – both members (and ex members) of organisations that have lots of admin! – get greeted by Seb and forms.

    Added to what we know about the matrix from BG Who the odds are clearly on it being a completely virtual environment. With dodgy wifi, LOL.

    I think it was @blenkinsopthebrave who first suggested the mausoleum is the Master’s TARDIS superimposed on St Paul’s, which is also my favourite theory.

    (Random thought – I think my fav concept in this episode (and it was rich in them) is the thought of babies in the womb telephoning each other. Then “dropping out” after 9 months. Laughed out loud at that one. But it does link in with Who themes of perception – you can’t make a call on what’s happening unless you see the whole picture)

    Mudlark @mudlark


    you can’t make a call on what’s happening unless you see the whole picture

    …but that should on no account be allowed to inhibit bonkers theorising 🙂 .

    ScaryB @scaryb


    but that should on no account be allowed to inhibit bonkers theorising

    Absolutely not. Only seeing a little snippet of the big pic (inc trailers, official photos, spoilers for those so-minded) is where bonkers theorising begins and flourishes 🙂


    @scaryb @mudlark

    I just sort of assumed the Nethersphere was inside Missy’s Tardis. Bigger on the inside an’all.

    The masters Tardis does not nee to be superimposed, it just needs to be inside the door (or indeed disguised as the door, since his chameleon circuit works).

    Mudlark @mudlark


    The masters Tardis does not need to be superimposed, it just needs to be inside the door (or indeed disguised as the door, since his chameleon circuit works.

    This is pretty much my preferred explanation also, since it is the simplest and neatest, although perhaps I did not make it entirely clear.  The Nethersphere is inside the mausoleum which is inside Missy’s Tardis which is disguised as something inconspicuous inside St Paul’s.

    The alternative which I proposed – that the mausoleum and the Nethersphere it contains are located in a sideways or overlying dimension connected by a portal to ours via St Paul’s – is offered as a possible, though less likely alternative in case, as I think was argued earlier, Missy does not have a Tardis and has been time-hopping by some other means.

    BadWulf @badwulf

    @pedant @mudlark @scaryb @blenkinsopthebrave

    If the Master’s TARDIS is the mausoleum, then the Doctor’s TARDIS has materialised inside it, which would cause a recursion problem, which doesn’t appear to have occured in this instance.

    Whovianami @whovianami

    I wonder how many of these theories will be shot down after tomorrow’s new episode…

    ABXY @abxy

    It’s the weekend! I can post again! 😀 And WHOA, did I just get an idea!

    I recently found out the origins of the song ‘Danny Boy’, and found that it was from the point of view of a dying woman speaking to her lover, who went to war, aka a soldier. A soldier called Danny.

    Clara had a post-it saying ‘Three months’.

    Far out there, but what if Clara’s dying? What if she only has three months left, and her call to Danny just before he died was to tell him that, after of course, ‘what she did wrong’?

    I really, really don’t want this to be true, but my brain must always torment me like this… ;-;

    Mudlark @mudlark

    @badwulf    Good point!  I was forgetting the recursion problem.  Ah well, I’ll have to fall back on the alternative dimension solution.  The one idea I balk at is the idea that St Paul’s has somehow been replaced: people would have noticed 🙂

    Arbutus @arbutus

    I don’t think Danny is permanently dead. The uploaded souls in the Bells of St. John were able to go back to their bodies if there were bodies left to go back to. @mudlark quoted Missy: “Imagine you could upload dying minds to that…” So I’m betting that as long as Danny is still on ice (so to speak), he can return there.

    @stormintheheartofthesun    obviously she doesn’t want an army of Cybermen just because it’s cool.   Unlike most of us!  🙂

    Mudlark @mudlark

    @abxy   Re ‘Danny Boy’.   When I lived in Northern Ireland I was informed by my friends there that the words are meant to be those of a father to his son who is going off to war, not a woman, and since the song originated in Ireland I assumed that they knew what they were talking about.  In practically any pub at the weekend there would be someone belting it out before the evening was over, and it was almost always sung by a man.

    ABXY @abxy

    @mudlark Ah, it appears I may have been misinformed. My theory loses its primary backing. :s Shame. 🙂

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