Death in Heaven

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@janetteb, @scaryb, et al,

Re: the question of civilizing the Guardian blog–forget it! It is beyond redemption. Remember the reason why we (but mostly our excellent emperor @craig) set up this site in the first place: to find a haven for civilized discussion. Nothing has changed. Or, if anything has changed, this site has grown and matured, and the Guardian blog has sunk deeper into a sink of invective and bile.

In some ways, I think of this site as a little akin to the TARDIS–bigger on the inside, full of fun and whimsy and great discussions, but not immune to friction or even death (as we all remember), whereas the Guardian blog is, oh, maybe more like the asylum of the Daleks, reveling in divine hatred.

Given a choice between invective and bile on the one hand and jammie dodgers and jellybeans on the other, I know where I stand.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

You all need to get over to iPlayer and listen to the last half hour or so of 5Live’s Afternoon Edition from today, when available.

Doctor Who review with added Michelle Gomez and a very amusing (and good natured) dressing down for critic Kevin Bridges. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04kfzpy

[macphisto96 @macphisto96]

@IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan Any summary for those of us not fortunate enough to live in the UK?  It would take some work to get iPlayer to work in Florida, methinks.  Though I probably can find it somewhere eventually.

Now that Series 8 is over, I at least get to re-watch it and then go back to brushing up on Classic Who.  It’s a good thing that Hulu Plus has most of it over here in the US.  They’ve even added a few of the recently returned episodes.  I hope eventually they’ll add stories like The Tenth Planet, The Moonbase, and The Invasion (guess I’ll continue the focus on the Cybermen).

[PaperMoon @papermoon]

@IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan thanks for the link

[BadWulf @badwulf]

@lisa

 

Well – I went down to St Paul’s this morning:

And there is definitely no red telephone box there!

I would say we have proof that the telephone box was Missy’s TARDIS! (unless there was a perception filter on an ordinary phone box to render it invisible, for some reason)

[lisa @lisa]

@badwulf I must commend you on your due diligence !!! lol
It is so nice that you live in that neighborhood – I have wonderful memories of my trips there
Still sticking to my idea about smoke coming from the “reflection” tardis [possibly a figure]
Its I think something about the way it seems purposely super imposed on that window pane – maybe ??

[BadWulf @badwulf]

@lisa Cheers- it was actually a lovely day for walking around the City today – it was warm enough to do in shirtsleeves and no need for a coat! Thankfully, I don’t live in London, I just work there – living there would drive me even more nuts that I already am.

 

Hmm – is the photo in my post above not showing?

[geoffers @geoffers]

@stormintheheartofthesun – Have I gone too far?

no, indeed! i would love for river to be able to return for the odd guest spot, here and there. i don’t know about clara being her child with the doctor, but anything’s possible! since this series was originally intended to be smith’s last, there is evidence (in ‘the name of the doctor’) that such a scenario might have been in the works. river was linked to clara, and ended with her usual, mysterious “spoilers!” maybe smith’s doctor would have used the nethersphere to give river the full “saving” that he didn’t give her in tennant’s run?

@lisa – i see the reflected phone box in the windows of the other, but i can’t say for sure that there’s smoke coming from it. it looks more like warpage due to that one pane of glass, as the pointy spire things at the top go all wavy, as well. it is worth noting that the kid who says “look at that” is pointing “at” that reflection (if you look at it as a flat image). if it’s a purposeful digital effect, then might they have been drawing attention to it? 🙂

also, in the previous scene, when the doctor whispers to osgood, it’s totally obvious that capaldi has knee pads under his trousers! i guess using a stunt double for being drugged to your knees was just too expensive?! lol

[WhoGirl @whogirl]

A little late in posting, but have finally got round to it.

After the episode there was only one thing to say: “Permission to SQUEEEEEEEEEEE!!”
Enjoyed it very much, after the second time of watching. (The first viewing was spent trying to such it all in and anticipating the end…)

Very touching tribute to the Brigadier, and nice to see Kate again. Very very very sorry to see Osgood get the chop though, especially when she was championing bow ties 🙁 Un-necessary!

Gutted for the Doctor when he realised Missy lied. She can’t be gone that easily can she?? And if she comes back then surely the wonderful Michelle Gomez has to as well!

Very sad scenes with Danny and Clara, but I had already prepared myself for his departure. Definitely think Clara and the Doctor will be reunited at Christmas.

Can’t wait to see Nick Frost as Father Christmas! Brilliant. 🙂

[Apopheniac @apopheniac]

Hello @arbutus

I think Oswald would be a great companion. Yes, she is very bright and “sciencey”, but also timid and insecure, probably idealistic as well. She would have lots to learn from experiences with the Doctor.

My own opinion is, that might not sustain a whole series’ arc.  We saw a bit of that in her scene with Missy.  Now that @bluesqueakpip has advised me on The Master’s history of hypnotism *, it’s clear to me why Osgood crossed the room when Missy asked.   (The entire time I was screaming at the TV ‘No!!  What are you doing?!’  🙂  )  But she walked back to her desk and did a fine job of appearing to ignore (the seriousness of) Missy’s countdown, and get on with her work.

We’ve already had Donna, who while being the very antithesis of timid ( ! ) still had bags of insecurity.  We saw Donna’s confidence and self-assuredness grow through her experiences with The Doctor.  At first glance, Osgood’s arc might be very similar.

* @bluesqueakpip – For the many millions of DW fans who’ve joined in since 2005, The Master being good at hypnotism isn’t known.  It would have been good to explain the guards’ behaviour, which could have been done with another one-liner (Missy had so many in this ep).

[zackyclear @zackyclear]

Sorry if any of this was brought up already. I’m sure it was but there’s too much to sift through.

I’m glad they finally said something about Gallifrey. I thought the story arc of this season was going to be about the Doctor finding Gallifrey, but it wasn’t mentioned at all until now. It was quite disappointing, but at least they touched on it. I’m sure something will come of it in the Christmas episode.

I have one question, though. What is the significance of the ship in Robots of Sherwood heading towards “The Promised Land?” How would they have heard about it and what could they gain from it? And how do they know the coordinates? It doesn’t make sense to me now that we know everything, but I may have missed something. Any explanations?

[Arbutus @arbutus]

@badwulf    Wow. Well done! I think it’s very cool that you know the different models of phone boxes.

@apopheniac    Yes. Well, I suppose I am old school enough that it didn’t occur to me to worry about the companion needing to sustain a story arc. And in fact, even in AG Who, it hasn’t always been that way. Actually, I think it’s quite possible that in designing the next companion and story arc, Moffat may well go with a new direction, as he did with his choice of Doctor.

Lots of great thoughts here about how the returned-from-the-dead might get their bodies back! It will be interesting to see whether this is addressed at all.

[macphisto96 @macphisto96]

@zackyclear I’m not sure either why the robots were searching for the Promised Land.  Same goes for the clockwork droids.  We did see Missy plucking out characters from the Doctor’s timeline, but that could just have been for research purposes as she constructed her plans.  I don’t think we have every answer yet.  Moffat gave us “Silence will fall” at the beginning of Series 5 and we didn’t figure out why until Time of the Doctor.  He often leaves mysteries for the future or creates new ones when he finishes a storyline.  We were left asking who blew up the TARDIS at the end of Series 5, an answer we did find out in Series 6 kinda, though the full answer came in Time of the Doctor.

@geoffers I had not heard that Smith was originally going to continue for Series 8.  Granted, I have only followed the show for a year.  The 50th Anniversary pulled me in after years of avoiding it.  So I had known Smith was departing as I binge watched all of the revived series.  I wonder if we would have gotten the same character arc if he had stayed.  It was my feeling that Moffat long had had a conclusion in mind for Smith’s departure by planting Trenzalore at the end of Series 6.  Then Series 7 came without a unifying plot arc.  The Impossible Girl didn’t rear her head until The Snowmen.  The first part of Series 7 just seemed to be a series of disconnected adventures.  I enjoyed that, though was sad to see Rory and Amy go.  I wonder if Moffat was going to just stick with single episodes for a time.

I think Matt chose a good time to leave.  It wrapped up well in my mind and gave us Series 8, a series I have greatly enjoyed.  I’m not sure that we would have gotten Capaldi a year later and I think he is brilliant.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@apopheniac

For the many millions of DW fans who’ve joined in since 2005, The Master being good at hypnotism isn’t known.

Which is a bit weird, really, because it was sort of a major plot point in Sound of Drums.

[lisa @lisa]

@ Badwulf – I tried to capture the shot but it isn’t cooperating for me 🙁

@ geoffers – yes! The kid put his finger at exactly the right spot so I agree its intentional – thanks!

@ Bluesqueakpip – Missy’s hypnotic talents are very sophisticatedly nuanced !
She is so good at that its hard to see when it happen lol But that talent multiplied by her
encyclopedic knowledge and so on is a great recipe for insanely dangerous or as she admits being “bananas”
So to my mind I find her engaging cause she is a antihero that is easy for me to sympathize with too.

[Anonymous @]

@pedant thank you  for the link to the UK talk back radio and interview with Michelle Gomez -what a great gal! I liked her ‘gentle’ dressing down of ‘Kevin the Sarcasm’ as he: poor thing, likes his blowy up and explody things.  Everything that is dialogue he avoids.

How he’s a reviewer, I ask myself, pondering poor media everywhere: a lot of it within my own country which typically failed to differentiate between commemoration and celebration of The Fallen with drunken jerks wearing tiny shorts and the Australian flag, carrying booze and laughing an awful lot about nothing.  Anyway, forgive rant -above interview was great.

@bluesqueakpip I agree with you about The Sound of Drums and also The Last of The Time Lords with The Master’s phone line/server – whereupon everyone experienced large scale hypnosis. The idea of perception filters was used a lot in that series also.

Can you shed light on @zackyclear and the question about how the robots knew the coordinates of the ‘Promised Land’/Netherspehere (as it were)? Was it some transfer of information through space/time planned and delivered by Missy to obtain, no doubt, as many people/half faced people to her Underworld or ‘more life than you had’ (Seb).

Perhaps they had heard this from other ships allegedly making the journey? I had assumed from Death In Heaven that Missy was using ‘immediate’ bodies and graves on the earth at this time and not, say, 500 years before.

Having said that, the plan was shown in Deep Breath -in Victorian times complete with Dinosaur. I guess that had a lot to do with keeping the Paternoster Gang in the loop. Shame that, for whatever reason, they couldn’t make a reappearance until perhaps the Christmas Special?

Seeing Father Christmas in another time/century would provide extra depth -together with Strax and his panoply of warlike expressions would be awful fun!

Kindest, purofilion

[Anonymous @]

@lisa you sympathise with The Master/Missy?  🙂 Really? @zackyclear I think that a lot of fans wanted the Doctor to find Gallifrey ‘the long way ’round’ as opposed to it being approached immediately thus leaving it as a plot development for future audiences giving us, and the Doctor incarnate, several months/a year to sit with the idea that he is no longer the ‘Lonely God’ or ‘The Last of the Time Lords’. This alters his response to certain adventures and concepts and allows us to capture our feelings and approach towards the Time Lords (the good and the bad ones) and the children of Gallifrey. To respond immediately would dilute the ‘appeal of the reveal’ & suspense of the story; it would truncate our differing responses to the realisation that: ‘it’s out there. Somewhere.’

[lisa @lisa]

@ purofilion I guess that is an outstanding question 🙂 So to the extant that Missy has a mental
illness which causes damage every where around her why would I think she deserves sympathy?
Only because people [and aliens] that suffer from mental illness/ are folks that find it very difficult
to differentiate between their ‘identity’ and their illness – Rasilon really didn’t help either with what
he did – Missy cant put distance between the 2 – so instead of feeling vulnerable she does bad things
that land her in hot water – ultimately I think and perhaps also the Doctor may think that

[lisa @lisa]

oops ! — think that Missy deserves a little compassion/sympathy ?? But she does make that rough

[lisa @lisa]

@ purofilion So yeah –I might re-think using the word easy – Missy has a lot of layers of
complication so I should have used the word rough initially in my original post

[janetteB @janetteb]

@purofilion The search for Gallifrey may well be Capaldi’s arc and will not be concluded until his final story. (And long off may that be.)

I have been meaning to remark on Capaldi/Doctor since I started to rewatch the series a couple of weeks ago but thought I would wait until the end. I thought at first, like Dan Martin on the Guardian, that he was slowly fitting into the role. I re watching I realised that I was wrong about that. He was the Doctor from the start. It wasn’t Capaldi at fault but me. I was taking time to adjust to the new Doctor, time to accept that he really was my Doctor. Smith, like Tennant before him, was a very hard act to follow and I think I had forgotten just how long it took me to fully accept Smith but Capaldi made the role his from the start and has brought so much depth to it. I love his dry humour, his social awkwardness, his thoughtfullness and unpredictability. Long may he be at the Tardis controls.

Cheers

Janette

[geoffers @geoffers]

@lisa – don’t put a space between your @ symbol and the name of the person you’re including, it doesn’t work. some will miss your mention, by not being obsessive like me!

example – @lisa works, @ lisa doesn’t…

🙂

[Anonymous @]

It seems like the least popular character from S8 is Danny Pink, even Dan Martin threw him under the bus (but I don’t blame Dan Martin for that, he doesn’t need to defend Danny Pink to his crowd at the Gaurdian).   So here is my bonkers theory for why Danny Pink is not a problem or bad character but instead is a good or even great character.

Problem 1: Clara would never fall in love with Danny? This could be explained by 12’s line about Clara’s mess-of-chemicals (the body’s natural beer goggles).  The girls in the office were infatuated with Danny (so he is probably one lucky guy who every woman finds attractive, i.e. the Justin Bieber affect).  That explains Clara falling for him, the love chemicals just kicked in on first sight.  The phrase, “what does she see in that guy?” is not uncommon even in the real world, so why not in the Whoniverse too.

Problem 2: Danny for most of the stories seemed dull, controlling, and generally unlikable? I say to that, so what’s your problem?  I don’t want to watch the same old cliché romance story.  It is great that we couldn’t figure out what was going to happen.  In retrospect his story makes sense now.  He was broken for a very believable reason.

Dull – he was broken, we didn’t know that, but now we do.  So it is great that he wasn’t just living life without a care in the world, knowing what happened, that would make him seem like a monster without any feelings at all: Which could not be the case, because his extraordinary feelings were what made his resistance to the cyberdization possible, and the ending of the story wouldn’t make any sense.

Controlling – It fits Danny’s mistrust of officers that he would try to protect Clara from being hurt the same way.  The people/whovians/fans who thought he was being controlling were trying to protect Clara from Danny, just like Danny was protecting Clara from the Doctor.  So maybe the people who felt he was being controlling, understand exactly what Danny must have been feeling.  Making people feel what the Characters do is good story telling, imo.

Generally unlikable – This is related to Problem 1, it kept us guessing which I think was good.  The only bad thing Danny ever really did was killing the boy, but it was an accident and nearly destroyed him.  He had one of the coolest endings of any character ever and did one of the nicest things ever, returning the boy.  So now I think his likability will go up on second viewings of the season.

Problem 3: Danny Pink was poorly written? I couldn’t disagree more. I’m guessing Danny’s character had about the same screen time as Missy’s for this season.  Both characters had most people wondering at times, if they were good or bad.  Danny’s scenes did exactly what they needed to do for a side story arc.  It didn’t seem that interesting or exciting (but to me, neither did the cracks in season 5, until the end). We learned Danny’s mannerisms, his back-story and feelings toward the Doctor, his importance to Clara and that is what made his most-miraculous-turn-around-in-character-history possible.  Cyber-Danny had the same mannerisms in DiH as we saw earlier in the season, but it suddenly worked.  Instead of wondering what he was crying about, it made sense and I felt really sorry for him.  Then he orders the Cybermen into action (the same way he used to order his army of school children) and he didn’t seem like a man-scout anymore, but a real soldier. He just needed the right army to command.  From that moment on he is transformed from zero to hero faster than any character I have ever seen.  What an amazing surprise ending, to what was thought to be a boring character and that to me is brilliant writing.

Problem 4: Danny and Clara’s relationship was boring?  I’m glad Danny and Clara’s romance seemed more like a side story. The point of Danny and Clara’s relationship was not about romance (Orson?), imo it was only the framework for establishing Danny’s strong emotions (love for Clara, anger toward the Doctor – officers in general, and his guilt about the boy).

The biggest hole in my theory is also pointed out in Dan Martin’s blog.

“[Danny] came good in the end with the whole self-sacrifice thing, but I just wasn’t invested in him enough to care very much.”

That is a good point and a possible failure in writing if you lose the audience.  But Danny’s parts were so short (except for Caretaker and Listen) that the audience should not have been lost.   If they were, I think they must have been watching it wrong?  That’s why a re-watch is probably required.  If that doesn’t work, then I guess not every character can be expected to work for every viewer, which of course is true or everyone would be Justin Bieber fans. 😯

I like the Danny Pink story, especially since it did so much within a short amount of screen time.  Which is perfect because I didn’t want the Danny and Clara show, I got to watch more Doctor Who, which is what I really wanted and that part made it better.  That is what a side story is suppose to do.

[Apopheniac @apopheniac]

Hello @bluesqueakpip

Regarding John Simm’s Master, you have a better memory than I do so I had to revert to the Tardis Data Core.

Hypnotism was clearly defined as at work through the Archangel Network in Sound of Drums; Martha says that everyone likes Saxon and there’s the fact that no-one worries about his obviously forged biography.  I’d forgotten these.  And I have a pretty good memory!

Since SoD was 6 years ago, though, I’m still of the opinion that a quickie reminder in DiH regarding The Master’s hypnotic abilities wouldn’t have gone amiss.  It feels like I’m belabouring a point, but although there are quite a few people here who don’t seem to forget any detail of any ep, I’ll wager there are many millions more like me who could have done with even a tossed-away one-liner to remind ourselves.

PS reading the TDC about the SoD/LotTL two-parter, I was reminded that The Master says “I win” just before ‘dying’ in 10’s arms.  Nice touch for Steven Moffat to repeat that in this ep.   🙂

[Apopheniac @apopheniac]

Hello @barnable

I’m glad you went through each of those Danny Pink ‘issues’ in detail.  Fwiw, I had no problem with Danny’s character at all.

1.  The first thing we learn about him is how all the other females at school are drooling over him, so why shouldn’t Clara, too?

2.  Far from controlling, I thought Danny was bending over backwards to accommodate Clara’s need for dangerous adventure, while still gently reminding her that there can be serious consequences from being in danger.  But we saw so little of him until this ep that we had to fill in the blanks, and unfortunately for us viewers, it was Clara (lying, lying little Clara) who was filling in those blanks for us.  People who think Danny was being over-controlling, imho, were buying into what Clara said with no actual (for us) evidence to the contrary.

3.  Totally agree with what you said about ‘poorly written’.  Missy was underwritten too until DiH, too, but nobody complained – we just slavered at the theorising possibilities.  We just didn’t see enough of Danny to make an informed opinion of him (see my no 2 above).  I loved him banging his head on his desk when he didn’t have the nerve to ask Clara out the first time!

4.  I’m glad you said this.  Perhaps people have Amy/Rory on their minds when they think of an ideal DW companion relationship.  I thought Danny’s function in Clara’s life was to be boring (ie, uninterested in travelling in the Tardis) – the perfect stark contrast to her exciting adventures with The Doctor.  And moreso than with Rory, this forced her to make a decision as to which life she wants to lead in the long-term.

Also, Danny with his ‘officer issues’ was perfectly placed to try to make Clara see The Doctor in a different light.  She didn’t, of course – instead, she tried to become The Doctor herself, not even noticing that she was turning herself into the one thing that Danny couldn’t abide.*

* This is my take on one reason why Clara says at the end ‘I wasn’t very good at it … ‘

[Anonymous @]

TY @apopheniac for all the excellent points.  I agree that those are even more things that Danny’s character was able to bring into the story.  They show how important his character was to understanding Clara’s character better, which I forgot about.  More good writing, to do so much in a short time. 😉

[Apopheniac @apopheniac]

Hello @arbutus

I suppose I am old school enough that it didn’t occur to me to worry about the companion needing to sustain a story arc. And in fact, even in AG Who, it hasn’t always been that way.

Sorry, I used ‘arc’ when I could just have easily used ‘development’.  Each of the RTD companions (what is ‘AG Who’?) had a clear development of character throughout their series.  I guess the arc thing is more of a Steven Moffat thing:   The Girl Who Waited, The Impossible Girl.  This latest series for Clara actually brought her back into the Rose / Martha * / Donna school of companion – a normal person who becomes extraordinary through her adventures with The Doctor.

I am hoping that the next companion will be arc-less in that definition, or if Clara continues (but it’s hard to see how that can work), that she can continue to grow and develop as a person rather than having an ‘arc’ to play to.

* Speaking of Martha, now I’m wavering again on Osgood as a companion!  I went from ‘waahhh, why did she die, I want her as a companion!’ to ‘ooh, maybe there’s the Liz Effect and she’ll be too ‘sciency’ to be a good stand-in for the viewers’, and back to ‘well, Martha was ‘sciency’ and she did all right.’  Flip-flop, flip-flop, that’s me.  😀

[Apopheniac @apopheniac]

Hello @barnable

Just never bring up Justin Bieber again, please?!  😉

Now, I’ve made my morning break last a half hour so lunch will be similarly curtailed – must off back to the trenches.  See youse later.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@apopheniac

I’d forgotten these. And I have a pretty good memory!

Hypnotic, isn’t she? 😀

Seriously, it’s quite possible that there was a line – and either time constraints meant it got left out, or they felt in editing that it made it too apparent that UNIT, throughout the episode, reacts very strangely towards Missy.

They fall into her trap, take her to the same place as the Doctor, leave her conscious and minimally guarded – and yet they have extensive records on the Master. They know he’s able to break out of high security prisons, persuade his jailers to throw in with him, make the entire country vote for him. They know all this, and yet they behave so stupidly you’d think there was some kind of mass hypnosis going on. 😉

The only sensible member of UNIT is the Brig, who we know has managed to resist being controlled. He just shoots her. And probably only waits as long as he does to make sure that – this time – the Doctor is willing to execute his old friend.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@geoffers

since this series was originally intended to be smith’s last,

From various interviews Matt Smith has given, it’s the other way round. His Doctor was originally intended to finish after the 50th Anniversary Special – but when he was so very successful, they did discuss extending his run to Series 8.

He felt that it was best to stick to the original plan because, if he didn’t, he might never want to leave.

Series 5, 6 and 7 do follow a three act format – which is probably why Series 6 has always been felt to be a bit unsuccessful. It’s the middle act.

[Anonymous @]

@apopheniac – Never Say Never this is hilarious!

[lisa @lisa]

@barnable liked the Danny analysis @apopheniac yours too – [I haven’t spent much time thinking about Danny]

@geoffers thanks for fixing me ! 🙂 🙂 I will particularly watch out for that !

always have a soft spot for certain tragic characters too]

[bardicraptus@live @bardicraptuslive]

Plot holes? Plot holes.

I am only a new series fan, so forgive me if I am missing some key stuff from classic doctor who regarding my comments on the Master.

The Master was “killed” with a blast from a Cyberman. Unless the Master was expecting to get blasted by a Cyberman and took some precaution to prevent her death (ie. teleportation) then the blast was meant to kill her. If she died, being the master, she’d regenerate. The doctor completely ignores this, and the fact that the body just disappears suggests it wasn’t a death at all right?

Second plot hole. Danny comes back even though they don’t show it? I mean maybe he is dead for good, it’s possible. But if he is dead for good then that means Clara is pregnant. Has anyone else thought of that? Clara and the doctor met Danny’s progeny with the toy soldier and the family history of time travel. Is this the whole time can be re-written, and even though she met him he never will exist because Danny died as a result of a mundane traffic accident?

I’m choosing to like this Doctor because I never cared for the Matt Smith doctor (even though I think he got some of the best writing) I like the fact that Moffat hinted at this bigger story arc with Missy, like the bad wolf plot. I just love that stuff. But I feel like the stories are a bit messy. And there is a definite unease with this doctor because I’m constantly questioning if he is “a good man”. Does he care about others? Is he capable of saving the day? I know he cares, but he really doesn’t look like he does. He is not the raggity-man he is the crochity-old-man. It also feels like he solves more problems by accident with no real intent. This doctor feels out of control and I am choosing to like that, even though it gives me a feeling of unease.

Also, can I just say it kills me how the show continually destroys some of the best potential companions? Osgood. Capaldi casually drops the “all of time and space?” and next thing you know… ZAP! I was also a fan of Astrid Peth.

[Rob @rob]

@zackyclear

The nearly afterlife in the nethersphere had been seeded by Missy

Hence the three words ‘don’t cremate me’ as the cybernanobots need a body to create a Cyberman ashes just won’t do….. unles you want teeny weeny cyberdustmites 😉

[Apopheniac @apopheniac]

Hello @bardicraptuslive

If you’re new to this site, the amount of comments to read can be quite daunting.  However, there is a Search function.  At the top right where it says ‘Search Forums’, try Master.  The results are returned in reverse chronological order, so you’ll see the newest comments first.  I’d also suggest searching on ‘pregnant’ because there has been quite a lot of theorising about this for Clara.

Also, please visit the On The Sofa thread, where you can introduce yourself, talk about your history of watching Doctor Who, etc.

Re Osgood – that’s another hot topic.  You might also search on that, to find theories regarding Zygon replacements, comments discussing the gut-punch realism of death, and such.

I agree about Astrid Peth btw.  She would’ve made an excellent companion.  However, she shouldn’t have shown up in an RTD Christmas special … 😀

[Apopheniac @apopheniac]

Hello @barnable

You rogue you!  I have watched that 3 times now, and it gets funnier every time.   🙂

[geoffers @geoffers]

@bluesqueakpip – i didn’t know that. at some point he had to have (at least verbally) committed to a fourth season, since some of the scripts were written for his character (such as ‘flatline,’ according to the writer’s blog). i wonder, then, how long he waited before letting them know he’d changed his mind?

if i recall correctly, there was a bit of a scramble to hire his replacement so that filming could begin on schedule. or that might have just been my take on the whole “is he staying, is he leaving” media blitz surrounding the 50th anniversary special (“will there be a regeneration in the 50th, or in the xmas special?” and so on)…

also, was the whole “darker doctor” idea purely a result of the need to regenerate, then, or was moffat’s original idea to take smith’s doctor down that path? it would have been very weird to see smith’s happy, child-like portrayal turned onto its head. i love capaldi’s portrayal, but i don’t know if i would have wanted that from smithy!

🙂

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@geoffers – you’ve misunderstood stuff. People were not writing for Matt Smith because they were expecting him to be in Series 8, they were writing for a Doctor rather like Matt Smith. Because they didn’t know who the new Doctor was.

What Jamie Mathieson actually said was:

Only the version of the Doctor I’d been writing had been a generic vaguely Matt Smith version.

(My emphasis)

Capaldi had only just been announced and this was supposed to be the meeting where I discovered Steven’s vision for the new Doctor’s character.

Or in other words, Jamie Mathieson hadn’t been on the ‘need to know’ list about exactly who had been cast. But he knew it wasn’t Matt Smith, so his first drafts had to be ‘generic Doctor’.

[geoffers @geoffers]

@bluesqueakpip – ah, thanks for the clarafication™! sadly, tis not the first time i’ve misunderstood things…

since i re-watch every episode at least three times (to try) to get all the details, perhaps i should re-read all doctor-related articles three times, as well?

😉

[Timeloop @timeloop]

What did you guys think of the flashbacks? They are a rather new technique for Doctor Who, aren’t they?

Personally, I’d love for them to expand. I don’t mean they should be overused. But Matt and Capaldi and every future Doctor should film snippets that can be used even after that Doctor regenerated. It adds depth to the story in my opinion.

[BESD1 @besd1]

Despite what the following might suggest, I enjoyed this, although I don’t think it quite lived up to the first part.

Some thoughts:

1. I may be over simplifying matters (I’m sure any IT bods on the board will tell me sharpish), but couldn’t Missy have saved herself a lot of trouble by installing a simple “If …. then ….” subroutine into the conversion process, as in IF subject has deleted emotions THEN restore to body”? Clearly neither Danny or the Brigadier had done so.

2. This series has given us some bad science (moon mass gravity issues) and some debatable science (solar flare negating forests) but the finale really frustrated me in delivering sound but poorly explained science. The cyber converting rain was gabbled away with a lies to children explanation (pollination) when the real explanation (lost in a single hurried line) was so much more satisfying and (in this context) creepy – self replicating machines. A brilliant idea rather lost in the need to include so much everything in the episode. I would have happily lost 2 minutes of Danny Pink to have that idea fleshed out. On the subject of flesh and of satisfying science:

3. If the dead remain connected to their bodies, and can feel cremation or the incisions of researchers, why didn’t anyone think a little further down that line to wonder what it would be like to feel your flesh slowly broken down by the forces of decomposition, the incremental incursions and insinuations of beetles, worms, earwigs, mould and bacteria. Now that is creepy.

4.  Danny Pink, as a character, had a lot of interesting things to say, especially in this remembrance weekend finale. The guilt of the soldier/survivor, the mouthpiece of the sacrificed generation, the critique of the officer class, all of these are relevant and necessary. i just don’t think Samuel Anderson is a good enough actor to carry it off. Personally I think that whole graveyard scene would have worked better if he’d kept his facemask on and Clara had interacted with a cyberman.

5. Missy is surely not dead and I look forward with glee to her next apearance

6. Self sacrifice on a global and a personal scale abounds and gives the series its heart(s).

7. Capaldi’s realisation of who he really is may finally signal the return to a smaller scale old school sort of adventure that was promised in 11’s time. This will hopefully also herald a shift away from the companions extra-Tardis activities (honestly, in the old days only the Tardis and the adventure existed) and bring us more doctor centered stories because

8. Capaldi is wonderful

9 The Brigadier equally so – I do hope the Cyber Brig will return.

10. Osgood – this upset me more than any other Who death in recent times.

[lisa @lisa]

@timeloop I like flashbacks as a device cause they can help interpret parts of a story or they
can manipulate how your thinking or get into motive or throw you a fun twist. As this is a
time travel show using flashbacks or even flash forwards seems very appropriate to me
Yes we could also have the extra treat of revisiting other Doctors too !
The flashbacks that I recall would be the 8th Doctor minisode and the Waters of Mars when
10 used his remembrance of what he had read in newspapers about the crew and of course there was
lots of it in the 50th anniversary show. Don’t recall specifically a lot of them in BG Who though

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@besd1

Having now watched it a second time, I got over my overly emotional response of the first viewing, and thought it was brilliant in just about every respect. So, I think it did live up to the promise of the first part. And yet, I find myself in agreement with most of your points. Specifically:

1. Agree (but then I am more IT clueless than most of humanity)
2. Not sure I agree with this one, as I see the show as fantasy rather than sci-fi (which I have my reservations about, actually, given that I was attracted to the show way back when because of Verity Lambert’s educational-but-emtertaining premise).
3. Agree. Excellent point.
4. Actually, I thought Samuel Anderson was pretty good.
5. Agree (with glee!)
6. Agree. I am a sucker for self-sacrifice.
7. Agree.
8. Agree. In fact, agree again.
9. I loved the BG Brigadier, but I think there would need to be a genuine narrative rationale to bring the cyber-Brig back.
10. Agree strongly. In fact, the viewer response to her death has been so strong (perhaps even stronger than to his awful United Colours of Benneton Daleks) that I would not at all be surprised if (just like the way he quietly forgot about the Teletubbie Daleks) he finds a way to bring back Osgood.

But who knows what will happen in the christmas special–which I think will be, in part, the resolution of this episode.

[Spider @spider]

@besd1 and @blenkinsopthebrave

In regards to #1:  It completely depends how you define the ‘delete emotion’ parameters in your IF statement. Is it a ‘pressed the button’ checkbox? in which case, you’d still have to examine the underlying code to determine exactly what emotions are actually deleted … and how you define that in the first place?

How do you logically define an emotion?  Try that for just a moment, try and actually write it down … it’s inherently difficult (if not impossible) because emotion is not based on logic (even talk of ‘inhibitors’ of emotion are dodgy because, again, how do you define it).  And that I think is entirely the point as to why there is a loophole … as well as the underlying fault with the whole Cyberman ethos …which is why they never win.

And is exactly I think what the Doctor is saying when he is comparing himself to the Master and talking about feeling or not feeling the pain.

As to other points: 5, 7 and 8 agree.

10. For me no. I do hope Osgood stays dead. Don’t get me wrong, her death really got to me and I was really sad to see it. But it was a powerful moment and I think that sort of occasional shock is needed to stop us getting complacent (because the real world is an awful place and bad things happen to good people who don’t deserve it). I think it would be a cheap fan pandering gimmick to bring her back (ok, yes, that hasn’t stopped it happening before I know!).

As, I think, I’ve said before (and so have others here) to me this feels like part 2 to of a 3 parter. The real finale is Christmas.

(\(\;;/)/)

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@besd1 @blenkinsopthebrave

 If the dead remain connected to their bodies, and can feel cremation or the incisions of researchers,

We only have Seb’s and Chang’s word for that – and nothing they say can be trusted.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

And also

9. I loved the BG Brigadier, but I think there would need to be a genuine narrative rationale to bring the cyber-Brig back.

Agree with @blenkinsopthebrave – I think Moff saw a nice way to do a wonderful in-story tribute the the Brig’s strength of character. But I also think it was strictly a one-off, as it should be.

[Arbutus @arbutus]

I finally had a chance to watch this again (and actually, unlike some of the others, I really needed some breathing space between viewings). Nothing really new to add, other than random thoughts.

I don’t think it was as dark as my initial perception of it. Yes, the treatment of the subject of death and afterlife was challenging, Osgood’s death was painful (as was Kate’s, although because she survived, I had forgotten the effect her initial tumble from the plane had on me), and Danny’s and Clara’s ending was tragic. But in the end, love won over hatred, good over evil, and the Doctor found himself at last. Pretty uplifting on the whole!

Regarding the people around the internet who have criticized the series for being the Clara Oswald show, I can only guess that they haven’t enjoyed this Doctor as much as I have. Because I have to say that nobody, nobody, ever upstaged Capaldi for even a moment in my opinion. With every expression, every word, every movement or stillness, he has blown it out of the water. Really.

Clara and Danny were fabulous at the end… imperfect, tragic, believable, pitiable. I cried the second time too.

I can’t believe there were people who thought the Doctor’s parting from Clara was boring. I thought it was beautifully played. Two people who care for one another, but to whom hiding their deepest self has become second nature, are saying goodbye forever. I thought they got it exactly right. (Plus, a line whose chain-pulling hilarity eluded me the first time while I was swamped in the emotion, when the Doctor talks about going back to Gallifrey and making things better: “Queen, that would be good too.”   🙂 )

All in all, a really beautiful payoff of all the strands that have been woven throughout the series.

[Arbutus @arbutus]

@besd1    I loved your comments. You made a lot of good points. I particularly liked what you had to say about Danny, although personally I thought he acted the pants off it. But I think that what I really missed was a sense of closure between him and the Doctor. The Doctor seemed to have come to some kind of understanding and appreciation of “PE” by the end, but I’m not sure that it was reciprocated.

Regarding your first point, if the Master hadn’t always had at least one gaping hole in his plans, the Doctor would never have beaten him– yet another reason we can be sure that Missy really is the Master.  🙂

Like @blenkinsopthebrave and @pedant, I am also unsure about the viability of a return of Cyber-Brig. Once was a touching tribute, but a repeat might just be cheap.

@blenkinsopthebrave:    “United Colours of Benetton Daleks”      😀

@spider    And is exactly I think what the Doctor is saying when he is comparing himself to the Master and talking about feeling or not feeling the pain.      I loved this speech! Capaldi knocked it out of the park.

I have now officially run out of metaphors for success.  🙂  I’ll just leave it that Twelve has now topped my list of AG Doctors.

[Anonymous @]

@besd1 – Just my opinions, no offense, I’m guessing you have been a fan much longer since you post about the olden days. We agree more than it looks like, or about 50/50. Glass half full. 🙂

1. Agree Danny and Brig didn’t delete emotions. I don’t have an IT explanation, but it was probably a mistake – Missy just over looked it or got over confident.
2. I disagree that there is any “bad science” in DW. Instead I think bad-science gives people who know the real-science an opportunity to explain exactly what was wrong with the science in DW (like @spider does for sensors). The real-science can be explained in much more detail than the show could explain it without being boring on repeat viewings.  If bad-science ruins the believability of the show, then that’s what bonkers theories are for, but the bonkers theories can still be based on real scientific principles. Observing and hypothesizing are important skills for scientists, and making it fun is good for getting people to learn about it. Just because the answer is unknown, doesn’t mean there isn’t one. There are answers to the moon egg they just aren’t proven yet or maybe even thought of? I disagree a simple explanation for kids, ruins a more complicated one. It’s great when every one is happy, but that is really tough to do.
3. I think it was all a con about the-dead-feeling-cremation, just to get them to press the delete button and erase their feelings, so Danny (or others) wouldn’t ruin Missy’s plans. I agree your ideas would have been creepier (but maybe better for a horror film?).
4. disagree from previous post
5. Totally agree
6. I liked the self sacrifice message for the solute to soldiers doing their duty (Armistice Day/Remembrance Day/Veterans’ Day) – @phaseshift kudos 🙂
7. Wouldn’t complain if that happened
8. Totally agree

[Anonymous @]

@arbutus   Absolutely on your point and that of those who really see Capaldi’s limitless talent and his power in ‘showing off’ this new Doctor:

“Regarding the people around the internet who have criticized the series for being the Clara Oswald show, I can only guess that they haven’t enjoyed this Doctor as much as I have. Because I have to say that nobody, <span style=”font-family: Thread-000011ac-Id-00000011;”>nobody</span>, ever upstaged Capaldi for even a moment in my opinion. With every expression, every word, every movement or stillness, he has blown it out of the water.”

I think that @besd1  you make some resolute and redoubtable points as usual!  I do think the science was odd but as @barnable implies we might overlook it for the sake of the emotional drama and tension. “Who knows?” Who knows indeed.

I would be worried if we ended up with people feeling the pain of decomposition -with others there, I’m afraid.

@blenkinsopthebrave United Colours of Benetton. Oh, that is very very good (using Tennant’s voice there but you have to be here/or there, so to ‘speak’)

As for The Brig’s return it was possibly the only way to do this expertly:  in other words simply and with finesse and so it worked.

I wonder too about Osgood’s remarkable loss. It affected me too, BESD1, but then, reading some of @pedants thoughts, I think that loss has to be real: you can’t come back from that. I was interested in this passing in the same way Jenny died, in The Name of the Doctor. I was shocked and I really believe that it had happened. There was a finality to it. Don’t get me wrong, it was great (really great) that her heart was easily (ish) restarted by Nurse Strax.

I think Samuel Anderson was a bit, I’m not sure, a bit flighty in some performances? In the restaurant, his laughter seemed forced when he and Clara were discussing Courtney (where are we on Courtney theories? @scaryb for example?). Later, perhaps his graveyard scene entrapped him a little (well, who am I kiddin’? He was suited up and even his poor face looked genuinely wired in and squashed) so that real expression and sadness in his words were lost a little. Although in the Nethersphere, Danny/Samuel’s confusion and fear were thoroughly evident just as his behaviour in The Caretaker bordered on menacing. In the end, from not liking him too much,  my mind has changed. I welcome that.

@Bardicraptus@live (what a name)

I think if you read all the posts -even some of them, you’ll read that many people have discussed Clara’s pregnancy -as one option. I think too, that right from the beginning, The Doctor was never this touchy feely kind of ‘dude’. Tennant and even Smith romanticised the Doctor -making him easier on the eye, likeable, friendly. Hartnell was never like that. He was mischievous and I think Capaldi is bringing us all the way back. Additionally, if 12 solves problems by accident as you said:

“It also feels like he solves more problems by accident with no real intent.”

then I haven’t really seen that? I think he is a man with a very very long plan. Does he genuinely care for people? You bet he does. He tried hard with Courtney and, after betrayal and a loathsome treatment by Clara, Capaldi speaks some of the most poignant lines this season.

But more importantly, there is a modern day focus -misplaced and wrong -on words over action. Lots of people saying they are “sorry” or saying “I love you”. But showing it? Some aren’t so keen. This Doctor takes Clara to hell to find her Danny Pink.  Others might just say “I’m sorry, I’m so very sorry”. In that, lies “the good man.”

I also am not sure how, if Danny dies, then Clara must be pregnant. I think there are other options and timelines. Some of these have been touched on up- thread. And welcome by the way to you! Reading many of the posts can be long indeed but very refreshing and also it may answer  your questions and inner doubts about plot holes. But that’s my opinion: it helped me.

Kindest, puro

 

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