Death in Heaven

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  • #35423
    Anonymous @

    I’m sorry   – that was @bardicraptuslive  Also @apopheniac comments are excellent. Try out the ‘sofa’ or ‘companions past and present’. I too am with you on poor Astrid -but again, sacrifice and loss. We have remembered her!

    #35424
    rmfgotenks @rmfgotenks

    Clara As The Next Doctor?

     

    It may be possible.  During the last few episodes not only does Clara get top billing in the opening credits but her eyes pop up instead of Capaldi’s. Also he wasn’t supposed to regenerate. He was on his last one as Smith until he got more from Galafray. I believe that since his body is going beyond his regeneration cycles it is going off people that was in the Doctor’s life. Which is why he regenerated into the guy he met in Pompeii.

    Enter Clara. She is a lot like the Doctor dialog wise. A fast talker, witty, clever, and a fast thinker. She basically said on the last episode that she’s the Doctor. Having the Master as the Mistress is proof that a Time Lord could change genders.

    And finally there is Capaldi himself. He only signed on for one season. And yet they have not announced a new Doctor. A new Doctor is huge news. The occasion is a national televised event. Why else would they not have made that announcement unless it’s something like that. Everything points to Clara. It could be a possibility.

    #35425
    Apopheniac @apopheniac

    Hello @barnable @pedant @besd1 @blenkinsopthebrave @spider

    I think it was all a con about the-dead-feeling-cremation, just to get them to press the delete button and erase their feelings, so Danny (or others) wouldn’t ruin Missy’s plans

    I agree with @pedant, we cannot trust anything Seb or Chang said.  On a philosophical note … why was it so important that the person themself press the Delete button?  Why wasn’t that something Seb (or Missy) could just do themselves?  Since 2005, Cyberman creation hasn’t required that the person delete their own emotions – quite the opposite in fact.

    Is this another one of the holes in The Master’s plan which shows how it was destined not to work in the end?  Or, a facet of The Master’s over-arching evil that she thought it would be hilarious to force humans to delete their own emotions this time around?

    I think that whole graveyard scene would have worked better if he’d kept his facemask on and Clara had interacted with a cyberman.

    I agree with you @besd1 in most of what you wrote, except as the days go by after viewing, I’m warming to Danny over the whole series more and more.  He was incredibly nervous at his dinner with Clara – for all we know, it’s the first date he’s had since returning from war (and killing that child).  And I think it was emotionally important for Clara – and us the viewers – to see Danny’s face in the graveyard.  We needed to see the physical expression of his pain, and also be reminded that inside each Cybersuit was a real person.

    Hello @arbutus

    “Queen, that would be good too.”

    I keep meaning to highlight that!  What a tease that Moffat is.  The Doctor As A Woman door being pushed open ever so slightly more, or just Moffat “chain-pulling” as you say?!

    #35426
    Apopheniac @apopheniac

    Hello @rmfgotenks and welcome

    It was only in this ep Death in Heaven that Jenna was billed above Peter (and we saw her eyes), and only at the beginning.  In the end credits, The Doctor was billed first as usual.  This was, I think we all believe, just a cheeky wink from Moffat to the audience since the trailers included Clara saying ‘Clara Oswald never existed.’  As we discovered in this ep, she was just trying to save herself from Cyberdeath and lying … again.

    And finally there is Capaldi himself. He only signed on for one season

    If you have specific and irrefutable evidence of this, please post it in the Spoilers thread.  This thread is only for discussion of this ep (and how it relates to previous eps).

    #35427
    Apopheniac @apopheniac

    Hello @purofilion

    Sorry, I forgot to @ you in my previous comment, regarding the scene with Danny and Clara in the restaurant.  (First date jitters, not just his first date with Clara, but perhaps his first in a very long time?)

    And I keep forgetting to bring up Courtney, so I’m glad you did.  She just dropped off the planet so to speak.  🙂  I can’t even remember right now (and have to go to work soon, so can’t re-watch) but was she even in Forest of the Night?  Anyway, we appear to have been teased that she might be an occasional companion, but no appreciable mention at all has been made of her since.

    his behaviour in The Caretaker bordered on menacing.

    I’m finding myself taking up the mantle of Danny Fan No 1.  🙂  Can you describe what you felt was ‘menacing’ about his behaviour in that ep?

    #35428
    rmfgotenks @rmfgotenks

    @apopheniac

    No spoilers intended. His one season sign on has been mentioned here and there. I think the last place I read it was TV Guide Magazine. One season and one Christmas episode it said. My theory isn’t definite though. That’s all it is is a theory. As for the content of this post it all pertains to this episode. But if you want me to move it elsewhere let me know.

    Moffatt has been known to drop hints like that throughout the series. It’s fun to think that Moffat was being cheeky, but why this episode? Why on the last episode? Mid season maybe but on the season fInale?

    Also their has been a rumor that Capaldi is a transition Doctor to make way for a new radical change. That could mean anything though. Could mean gender. Could mean ethnic. Could mean he will finally be ginger. It’s all speculation at this point. This episode is just the springboard of different possibilities that popped up. I just went with what made sense to me.

    #35429
    stormintheheartofthesun @stormintheheartofthesun

    @arbutus I also had a laugh at the “Queen, that would be good too.” comment at the end. But it also left me a little worried that SM is hinting at a future gender change for the Doctor. But maybe it was a reference to the Master turned Mistress. I’m going to choose to believe the latter.

    #35431
    Rob @rob

    Muddy everyone oops I meant morning everyone

    Well in the eternal triangle of Bucks, Oxon and Northamptonshire  where the winds blow, the rain cascsdes and the earth slowly liquifies into a soul sapping gelatinous ooze….

    Anyway a couple of points

    Both the Brig and Dan had served and acted as moral soldiers,  yes making horrific mistakes too, shown explicitly with Dan and the boy. So when pressured to delete emotions would know that you need the pain to make you moral. Hence I have no problem whatsoever with these characters resisting the easy way out.

    Next up Osgood death. Her death had already served it’s dramatic purpose.  It was final and complete.  If she is bought back by some timey wimey Doctor stuff it won’t affect the dramatic theme of Death in Heaven, just as River appears post Silence in the Library doesn’t decrease the sacrifice she made for the Doctor.

    Who is magical and death is not always final. The whole premise of regeneration central to Who is that who you are does not cease to be when your body is old and wearing thin.

    Ps the only religion I have is welly boots and dry warm clothes 🙂

    #35432
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @rmfgotenks – theories are fine. Incidentally, that was my theory for Series 8; that they’d booked Jenna Coleman as the new Doctor. She’s very Doctorish. 😉 It was a great theory until a certain Peter Capaldi ruined it. 😀

    However, the rule on this site is NO spoilers – except in the Spoilers thread. We even have a separate blog for trailers. That way both those who enjoy discussing spoilers and those who don’t can stay happy.

    Information from the TVguide and ‘here and there’ would, I’m afraid count as spoilers. Though to be truthful, it’s more gossip; there are also counter-rumours wandering around. They are all rumours – I have no idea what’s true and what’s not.

    Rule of thumb: did you get your information off an official BBC site? No? Then, if it’s definite, it’s a spoiler.

    Incidentally, I’m an actor and I’ve worked as an actor’s agent; I can think of a lot of reasons why both sides might plan for a several series Capaldi Doctor and yet agree that it’s best to sign rolling one series contracts. As I said, gossip and rumours. He could be signed on until Christmas, he could be signed on until Christmas 2020, or his agent could be taking it year by year because Capaldi doesn’t want to be committed to the next showrunner after Moffat – until he knows who it is.

    #35433
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @apopheniac

    On a philosophical note … why was it so important that the person themself press the Delete button?  Why wasn’t that something Seb (or Missy) could just do themselves?  Since 2005, Cyberman creation hasn’t required that the person delete their own emotions – quite the opposite in fact.

    Is this another one of the holes in The Master’s plan which shows how it was destined not to work in the end?  Or, a facet of The Master’s over-arching evil that she thought it would be hilarious to force humans to delete their own emotions this time around?

    I interpreted this as the Master creating an army for the Doctor using “volunteers”, as the Doctor would probably have had more difficulty taking ownership of a conscript army.

    #35434
    Anonymous @

    @apopheniac  yes, hello!  OK, should explain myself better: I felt that the way Danny is filmed (on occasion) in that episode watching from behind the 1st floor pillar whilst we are at ground level looking up intensifies his suspicious attitude. He watches what the Doctor is doing and then collects or dismantles, one by one, the ‘sensors’ that have been lplaced. He lays them out over the floor so the Doctor can perceive ‘someone is watchiiinggg’.

    Also, his repetition of “I’m a Math teacher. Yes, I am. No: I don’t play PE, I said I’m a math teacher” was overdoing it. If a new caretaker appears and seems a little ‘odd’ would you bother to keep correcting him or would you think ‘eccentric (nut)?’, laugh and walk away? I’d be inclined to.

    My own caretaker at work is the oddest bloke. When I bumped into the fuse box and didn’t know as the radio was blaring Bowie, he siddled up and said with a huge grin on his face exposing poor dental hygiene “hey, you, you gotta biiig bump on youuur ve-hical, therre!” Yeah, funny, dude!

    Anyway, I felt menaced!  As if Danny likes things a special way…or else. He’s always on the defensive I find, anyway. However, I like old Danny or PE -I didn’t at first with the date night that was ‘off and on’ but then I did -like Clara, I guess. Certainly, when she heard him at his desk moaning, “well of course I’m going to go to the party because you’re going and now it seems like such a fabulous idea” (or something of that sort!) -great acting, wonderfully funny and a bit predictable (which, with Who, is occasionally rather soothing!)

    No, I think Courtney wasn’t in Forest of the Night. Also, yes, I’d agree with Clara in the credits at the beginning  as a ‘cheeky wink’ from Moff. Many people thought this was, no doubt, a very companion orientated series with the Doctor almost as c0-star. I don’t agree with that -to me, Capaldi is centre stage always.

    @rob  ah-ha  a different opinion. And I like it…. The loss of dramatic tension doesn’t occur even if Osgood is returned. Interesting, as you say (and I watched River’s episodes today) that River reappearing doesn’t reduce the original sacrifice. But we know it happens and she does die. She knows and so do we, that her timeline runs backwards. If Osgood returns, then there is no such tragic impetus? Perhaps.

    Enjoy the wet squelchy weather….have gum boots on hand. Do people still call them that, then?

    and what is rmfgotenks talking about? 🙁 I’m not happy… with respect to Clara acting as Doctor in Flatline , that was dramatic only! She was having a little fun but realising that it’s not always amusing running around time and space (she needed a reminder since being The Impossible Girl), some decisions are just awful and some people will always die, even the ‘wrong ones may end up being saved’ and, “Clara, you were an exceptional Doctor but goodness had nothing to do with it.”

    Kindest, purofilion

    #35435
    Anonymous @

    oh goodness I meant @rmfgotenks above!  Apologies and welcome.

    #35436
    Rob @rob

    Bonkers bonkers bonkers…….

    Missy applied lipstick prior to killing Osgood

    Hallucinogenic lipstick, yup, we were all under the influence of Missy and saw what she wanted us to see. Who better to break the 4th dimension/wall than super bonkers Missy

    Back to worshiping @purofilion goddess of the gum boot 😀

    #35438
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    I braved a second watch, and I feel this is a magnificent end to a series which I look forward to binge watching at the earliest opportunity. Just for things I’ve missed, which will probably be a lot, as I’ll explain.

    I think it’s a sign of confidence and bravery to do something different with a show. You may lose a few people on the way but, to be honest, that would be a danger if you continued to tread the same paths again and again. I think SM operates on the approach that the biggest danger for Who is complacency.

    I was struck when I watched this back to back with Dark Water that the iconography on the poppy (which is the symbol for remembrance in the UK) occurs largely in the first episode. You get Danny wandering about a memorial laden with poppies as he gets a phone call from Clara. You then get the scene where Clara tries to contact the Doctor and he’s, well, somewhere. An alien planet resembling an amphitheatre and garnlanded with huge organic pseudopoppies. Perhaps a place the Doctor goes on his own to remember? I think the iconography of the poppy probably pops up more through the series. Someone I know who is a lot more conversant about fashion and stuff pointed out that the blouse Clara was wearing that we mulled as “eyes” was actually a poppy print.

    It’s still painful to watch someone like Osgood die. So young, and so full of potential. Unfortunately though, this is an incursion of real life into Who. Osgood was tech staff in a military operation. Occasionally they die as well. I’ve lost count of the amount of casualties that UNIT has suffered over the years. In that peculiar way, they blend into one. I think on this weekend it’s sobering to remind people that these things do happen. For it to work, it had to be someone the audience cared about. I think Ingrid Oliver deserves a lot of credit for making Osgood so likeable that it did hurt. That scene, in itself, also cemented Missy in the pantheon of Masters as completely cruel. It’s a move guaranteed to hurt the Doctor. As she says later. “Anymore friends of yours to kill? They’re so moreish”.

    @apopheniac

    On a philosophical note … why was it so important that the person themself press the Delete button? Why wasn’t that something Seb (or Missy) could just do themselves?

    I think this question, and @besd1 comment

    “If …. then ….” subroutine into the conversion process, as in IF subject has deleted emotions THEN restore to body”? Clearly neither Danny or the Brigadier had done so.

    Are linked. Fundamentally – I think it’s been shown that cyber conversion can be resisted over the years. In Tomb of the Cybermen, the giant Toberman resists his partial conversion after the death of his employer. He’s devoted to her, and you could argue that it’s love, or a sense of duty that re-awakens him. Yvonne Hartmen resisted, killing Cybermen after conversion “I did my duty for Queen and Country”. Conversion can be forced, but it’s interesting to note that even with his emotion inhibitor engaged, converted Danny resists. I think that placing the dead in a hopeless situation, where they’d surrender themselves was part of the plan. But for some people their sense of duty – and their love, gave them the power to fight back. And if any character in Who was motivated by a sense of duty, it was the Brig. It’s also interesting to note that Kate’s relationship with her father (she came from spin-off media) wasn’t always the easiest. She makes a passing comment to that effect in Power of Three.

    No – I think this was a powerful end to a series. It’s downbeat and one I think you could only pull off if you know you have a Christmas special relatively close. As Santa said “You can’t leave it like that”.

    #35440
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Just had a really evil thought about Ingrid Oliver her interview in the DWextra definitely has a flavor of “I know something you dont know “to it.

    Now i know a lot of you are hoping it was “ZygonOsgood” that was killed, but and now I apologise if anyone else has already proposed this, (just too many posts to more than scan them i keep waking to 20+ emails from the forum). We know she has a sister. What if shes not just her sister but  an identical twin. Yes I know this was used in a fashion when Freema Agyemans character Martha  was introduced  they had used her in the Army of ghosts episode where she played Marthas cousin who worked in Torchwood. Yes I know Osgood has stated that her sister is prettier but twins often feel thier twin is, especially where one twin is submissive to the other. Now I know in part it is the “boffin” aspect of her character along with her timidity and Doctor fanboyness that actually makes her appealing as a potential companion but it certainly neatly gets around her death  in this episode if they want to bring her back as a companion.

    #35441
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    arrrgh dont know why my last post seems to have scrambled itsself

    #35442
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @rob

    Next up Osgood death. Her death had already served it’s dramatic purpose.  It was final and complete.  If she is bought back by some timey wimey Doctor stuff it won’t affect the dramatic theme of Death in Heaven, just as River appears post Silence in the Library doesn’t decrease the sacrifice she made for the Doctor.

    I think this is a really good point, and, although I respect the views of @pedant and others on Osgood’s death, I think there are ways of bringing her back in a way that makes narrative sense, without diminishing the impact of her death at the hands of Missy.

    I certainly hope so, anyway. Oh, and:

    Ps the only religion I have is welly boots and dry warm clothes

    It is good to know that you can practice your religion in

    the eternal triangle of Bucks, Oxon and Northamptonshire  where the winds blow, the rain cascsdes and the earth slowly liquifies into a soul sapping gelatinous ooze….

    so that we don’t have to!

    Stay warm and dry my squelchy friend.

    #35446
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    I mentioned the pantheon of Masters in my previous post. Time for me to answer the question literally no-one has been asking. Where does Michelle Gomez fit into my personal rankings of Masters? Yes – I can’t see the end of the series without another one of my personal lists. Any thoughts welcomed.

    7. #5 Eric Roberts (8th Doctor Movie)

    Eric’s performance has been said to be “Cartoon terrible”. This isn’t my opinion, it’s actually Eric himself. You really do have to admire the man for self awareness. Honestly – I’ve seen him in a few things and don’t think he’s a bad actor, but the Director said he wanted it “big”, he’d heard the old show could be a bit camp and pitched it at pure panto, as imagined by someone who had only heard of panto vaguely. Sometimes I watch and laugh along with it. Most times I just think “Oh, dear”.

    How the ?u%& did he do that?

    Apparently he could survive Dalek extermination. His remains were delivered to the Doctor by the Daleks (unusually accommodating of them), only to emerge in snake form and take over people. No – me neither. Terrance Dicks gamely tried to write a loose semblance of a narrative over these events in the novel The Eight Doctors. Bit of a lost cause that one Terrance.

    6. #7 John Simm (Utopia, Last of the Time Lords, End of Time)

    Love Simm as an actor. Genuinely engaging in virtually everything I’ve seen him in. I don’t think his Master worked, and I think it was a fundamental error in writing. Again – why ask a good character actor to amp it up and play an infant on a sugar-rush?

    Don’t get me wrong, there are some good scenes, and moments of calm lunacy which I do get (the scene as he taps out his drumbeat, staring into space after murdering the cabinet is fantastic). It really is just the scenes directly opposed to the Doctor. When you imagine the ghost of Anthony Ainley saying “Tone it down a notch, love”, you know there is something wrong. I heard that far two many times. I’m afraid the ghost of Heath Ledger’s Joker loom’s large in this one.

    How the ?u%& did he do that?

    OK – You will yourself to Death to circumnavigate regeneration. Your body is cremated (“Don’t cremate me”) and here you come, back from the dead. Summoned in a Black Magic ceremony by a ring and the blood of your ex. By a group of butch prison wardens who looked like they’ve been imported from Prisoner C-Block H. No – me neither.

    And people complain about a moon-egg!!

    5. #4 Anthony Ainley (Fourth to Seventh Doctors)

    Where do you start with Ainley? I’ll start with a quote from @jimthefish where he questioned “why the hell would the Master want to regenerate as the same character!!”. Just because it made me laugh. Because with the variability of the Doctors appearance, the Masters first visibly human “rejuvenation” (because it wasn’t regeneration) with Black hair, groomed goatee must show a lack of imagination?

    Ainley put in some variable performance as the Master in a variable period of the shows history. He’s the writers and Directors bitch, let’s be honest. Other Masters had the benefit of playing against one director to a strict code enforced by a single script editor/Lead writer. He didn’t.

    “You want camp – I can do camp. You want character work? OK – let’s talk.”

    Watch him in Mark of the Rani (which I find appalling) and he’s written as a melodrama loving buffoon. Watch him in The Five Doctora, Logopolis, Castrovalva and Survival and I think you can see the better aspects of his work.

    How the ?u%& did he do that?

    Where the hell do you start? Ainley was the Master (chortle) of the sudden return from certain death. Trapped in a collapsing temporal incursion? No problem. Beamed without a TARDIS to an alien world to be the plaything of an alien race? See you next week. The man would baffle Houdini in the miraculous escape routines.

    4. #2 Peter Pratt (Deadly assassin) #3 Geoffrey Beevers (Keeper of Traken)

    A lot of our knowledge of regeneration and its limits came from this period as the Master regenerates beyond thirteen and the results are horrific. Twisted and distorted, only hatred and bitterness give him the will to continue, and seek to extend his life by whatever means.

    I think Pratt and Beevers both do a good job, hampered somewhat by the prosthetics of the time. I’ve often wondered if JK Rowling (who was a bit of a Doctor Who fan when young) saw Deadly Assassin and it ingrained subconsciously on her. Compare the Master of this period and the position of Voldermort in the early books and there are some similarities, with them jointly sharing dialogue about living a half life, having gone further than any other, etc.

    The one thing that they suffer from is a lack of obvious charm and being so serious. But against the fourth Doctor, perhaps that was the point?

    How the ?u%& did he do that?

    Well – get into that state is the obvious question. And survive in it. Other than that he had a miraculous escape from a chasm in Deadly Assassin but was clearly shown leaving Gallifrey.

    3. #6 Derek Jacobi (Utopia)

    Gosh – what a coup. Jacobi has dabbled in the world of the Whoniverse in audio, but it was a delight to have that reveal on TV, and see the cosy charm of Yana gave way to the hollow, bitter, megalomaniac who’d quite happily kill the lovely alien who’d been helping him. Because he didn’t like her. It’s all too brief, but I’d love, somehow, to see him again. He’s pretty masterful. Clearly the Doctor can never know that Yana is the Master, but that wouldn’t stop me swallowing a bucketful of technobabble to see Jacobi, as the Master, face of against John Hurt’s War Doctor. Clash of the Titans. We’ll never see it.

    How the ?u%& did he do that?

    Pretty clear, all in all. Remains from the movie resurrected by the Time Lords (as is their gift), ran, and hid himself in a way the Doctor had already revealed! Huzzah!!

    2. #8 Michelle Gomez (Series 8)

    As insane as the Simm Master, but somehow much more terrifying. I think a lot of this comes down to a simple equation. I think Simm was an actor pretending to be insane. I’m pretty sure that Michelle Gomez, is, at some fundamental level, insane. She’s brilliant at the scenes she’s given, turning from playful to nasty on the turn of a coin. Effortlessly odd, a preening ego playing games. A stalker of a Time Lord. Someone who desperately wants to prove a point.

    I think, of all the scenes I’ve seen the Master in, her countdown to death for Osgood will live the longest in memory. It’s a work of manic genius on her part, and narrative playfulness on the writers that would have Alfred Hitchcock applauding. You know its coming. You know it can’t happen. You know it’s coming though. Bugger. She’s dead. No care, no remorse. Her “last temptation of The Doctor” plan is audacious and, for me, far more in tune of the Doctor/Master “I need to prove that I’m right” dynamic we’ve seen previously.

    How the ?u%& did she do that?

    After reading the preceding entries, do we really feel that Missy was casually caught out by a Cyberman blaster? I think not. Hope she didn’t have to regenerate. Gomez was superb and I want additional airtime. I hope they have confidence to add layers to the character.

    1. #1 Roger Delgado (Pertwee Years)

    The original, and I still think the best. I think each Master has to be ranked alongside their Doctor for full effect. Delgado was what Pertwee actually needed. He was marvellous against Delgado – a true double act. I think there were hints at that double act in this encounter between Capaldi – Gomez.

    The 50th Anniversary year of 2013 also saw the 40th Anniversary of his untimely death. I wrote a tribute at the time, which I hope you may enjoy reading.

    I think he would have been delighted as Gomez as a replacement though. She’s very different, but I’ve always thought that the Master should understand the Doctor at a base level. I think Gomez (and her script) conveyed that feeling that she understood her old friend only too well. And she was trying to welcome him to her own team. To prove that childhood point.

    How the ?u%& did he do that?

    It’s pretty all much good. You could question how he escaped a time loop designed to trap Axos while he was still in it, but the Doctor has been shown to break through timeloops himself by will. A Groundhog Day idea on Doctor Who would really be short lived:-D

    #35447
    Fonsini @fonsini

    So the Doctor delivered one line that was very out of character for him, bigoted actually.

    “We don’t want any Americans involved, they would all just start praying anyway”.

    That sounds like something the average bigoted Brit would say, not a time traveller who is fascinated by, and tolerant of, the beliefs and customs of thousands of different species across hundreds of different planets.

    #35448
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @phaseshift

    An excellent survey. In fact, perhaps it should be a blog of its own, so that we can share Master memories.

    #35449
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @phaseshift — nice survey and I think I agree with your rankings entirely. Also would add I think Moffatt was very clever with the casting and hopefully headed off the ‘we want the Rani’ back brigade. We’ve now got a Master who fills both roles quite nicely. And Michelle Gomez — definitely mad as a tree — in the nicest possible way.

    @fonsini — shoosh.

    #35450
    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @fonsini As an American I can assure you that I took no offense.  I also happen to be an active church going American, yet still took no offense and saw it as a funny line and not a bigoted one.  I think the tongue was firmly implanted in the cheek by Moffat.  He and the BBC know that the show is growing in popularity in the US, so they aren’t going to be negative.  Besides, there’s a history of polite jabbing across the pond.

    #35451
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @macphisto96

    I wouldn’t worry about @fonsini s point. A casual look at his posting history will reveal what he’s about.

    I did mean to respond to @brewski s comment earlier in the thread though when he quoted the line about praying.

    OMG! Is that how the world sees us?! :O I need to move!

    I think in an episode that played a lot on the relationship between soldiers and their officer class, that line was pretty firmly a jab at your old Commander in Chief, George W. Just before the Iraq invasion it is suggested that Blair and Bush prayed together (Blair denies this happened). Given that the Doctor says it as he’s assumed the Presidency of the Earth I think it’s fairly clear.

    I think it’s fine for Who to take a few pot shots at the cultures it’s popular in. The old series used to do it as well. I still love some of the dialogue in Robot between the Brig and the Doctor.

    Brig: “Of course, only Great Britain could be trusted with such a secret”.
    Doctor: “Well of course old chap. All the others were foreigners weren’t they” (taking the Mickey out of our perceived self importance on the world stage).

    #35452
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @blenkinsopthebrave @jimthefish

    Many thanks. I’ll have a think about the Blog and may transfer it later Blenkinsop. It may be nice to have something to enable a discussion about the actors who have played the Master, you’re right.

    #35453
    lisa @lisa

    @phaseshift – There was definitely an undercurrent jab in that comment [and for my part I took absolutely
    no offense in it as a ‘Yank’ girl] GW was one of our worst Presidents IMHO! Im happy to say I never
    voted for him and was in fact extremely sad that he got the second term ! However, something
    interesting is if you interpret the Galifrey coordinates from Missy as a date then it was the
    date that the US Congress voted to give GW war powers to invade Iraq- which will be a difficult
    piece of history to swallow for a very long time ! So I think maybe SM wanted to reinforce that
    notion in an episode full of hard decisions having to be made?

    #35454
    Apopheniac @apopheniac

    Hello @badwulf

    I interpreted this as the Master creating an army for the Doctor using “volunteers”, as the Doctor would probably have had more difficulty taking ownership of a conscript army.

    Interesting idea.  I hadn’t considered that – I went for ‘The Master is so cold-heartedly evil she laughs at making humans delete their emotions.’  OTOH, I don’t think The Doctor has any idea about the iPad with the Delete option in the Nethersphere, so he must assume that these Cybermen were converted against their will, as all others in his past were.

    Hello @purofilion

    Right, I’m going to re-watch The Caretaker to see if I can see it through your eyes.  It’s wonderful that our viewing experience of Doctor Who incorporates our own real-life experiences; it’s what makes each person’s theorising so interesting to read.  I’m trying to discern the ‘Danny’ in my past who is making me so sympathetic to this character.

    Hello @phaseshift

    ‘Masterspotting’ !  That was a great graphic.  I hope you make a separate thread to discuss Masters past and present.

    Hello @devilishrobby

    Good points about twins and how they perceive the differences between them re Osgood.  I’m thinking back to The Doctor calling out to Kate, who at that moment is tete-a-tete with Osgood conferring about … what?  Telling Osgood’s twin how to act like Osgood?  Besides Zygons (a nice throw-back to earlier series) we also have Seb who, when zapped by Missy, had the same colours as any other human zapped, including Osgood.  Seb was an AI interface.  Could Osgood have been a similar type of interface (ie hologram) except to a living person instead of AI? *

    * just trying to keep the flame alive for Osgood’s potential return.  Without River Songish timey-wimeyness.  I agree with @rob re the finality of death and also the world of Doctor Who with its possibilities of death not being final (hey, look at The Master for a … erm … Masterclass on that topic!)  🙂

    #35455
    DrBen @drben

    Re Cybermen “deleting emotions” – hat tips to @apopheniac @rob @badwulf @phaseshift and anyone else I missed:

    There are a number of possible reasons why Missy et al wanted people to voluntarily delete their emotions before becoming Cybermen.  As @phaseshift says, people have been known to resist Cyber conversion throughout the years.  Missy may have thought that it was their all-too-human emotions that got in the way, and that simply removing their emotions by force would not solve the problem.  Rather, they had to voluntarily agree to let them go.

    Although this, from @badwulf, is an excellent theory I hadn’t thought of:

    I interpreted this as the Master creating an army for the Doctor using “volunteers”, as the Doctor would probably have had more difficulty taking ownership of a conscript army.

    Clever.  Could be.

    But I disagree with whoever said that Danny and the Brig did not delete their emotions.  The Doctor explains this pretty clearly, with the excellent (if cheesy) line, “Love is not an emotion; it is a promise.”  The clear implication is that, even after removing emotions from the equation, Cyber conversion cannot override “the promise of a soldier”.  In Danny’s case, that was a promise to love and protect Clara.  In the Brig’s case, it was a promise to protect the world.

    #35456
    Arbutus @arbutus

    My two cents gets you these thoughts about Osgood and her potential return.

    First of all, River was quite a different situation. She died at the beginning, but as @purofilion says, we knew her situation at the time. That death was sad as viewed from Ten’s perspective, but less so from ours. The real parallel is her goodbye to Eleven in Name of the Doctor. This was so very sad because it was their mutual farewell, and I am in the camp of those who feel that this would be weakened by her returning and meeting a later Doctor.

    My hope for Osgood’s survival is based on the notion that she was never really dead; i.e., she was teleported rather than killed, as with the characters in Time Heist. If this is what Moffat had intended all along, then I’m fine with it as I like the character and would love to see her as a companion for awhile. But I would be less pleased if the cost of her return was some kind of magical resurrection after the fact, because of fans (like me!) complaining about her death.

    What I wouldn’t want to see is what I disliked about Rose’s arc: character is dead or gone, ostensibly without hope of return, after emotional and moving farewells, and then magically, just… comes back. (And even then, she wasn’t allowed to stay.)

    I should add that I feel similarly about Missy. I’m pretty certain that she was meant to live, she has lived, and we will (gleefully!) see her again. I am hopeful that we will ultimately get some explanation for her survival and escape from Gallifrey. Despite the Master’s history back in the day, I’m not sure that “I escaped” will fly these days!

    #35457
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @phaseshift     I really liked your thoughts about the need to have the dead choose for themselves to delete their emotions. This works really well and fits both this story and what we know about cyber conversion.

    Also    No – I think this was a powerful end to a series. It’s downbeat and one I think you could only pull off if you know you have a Christmas special relatively close. As Santa said “You can’t leave it like that”.   I agree completely with this!

    I really enjoyed your “Master ranking” as well (and am adding my vote to those who favour it as a blog of its own). I agree that Missy is the best take on the character since Delgado’s. We would need more confrontations to see whether this pairing could ever hope to match the classic Delgado/Pertwee one. Maybe we should have a Master-oriented viewing series at some point?

    (And also, despite what I just wrote about viewers these days expecting explanations, I admit I had forgotten about Simm’s “resurrection”. So maybe we just don’t care after all?)

    #35458
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @drben      Your last paragraph makes an excellent point! Cyber-Brig really helps make that crystal clear, I think.

    #35459
    Fonsini @fonsini

    @phaseshift

    There’s usually one character like you in every discussion forum, they reply to every post and when they see one they can’t deal with they simply attack the credibility or perceived agenda of the poster.

     

    My point stands whether people were offended by the scene or not – the Doctor would not mock the customs or religious beliefs of any species, and he is not supposed to be channeling bigoted British beliefs or Moffat’s personal agenda or anything else.

     

    This series is rife with personal agendas and sub-plots – the mockery of a senior army officer as an overgrown Boy Scout, the unfeasibly large number of black characters, and the not-so-subtle anti-American jibes.  What you are seeing is a London socialist’s wet dream, the ability to pump out a subtle but twisted liberal agenda as the bass rhythm of a SciFi symphony.  In short, it’s propaganda.

    #35460
    Rob @rob

    @arbutus

    I think I agreed with you before you posted,  how’s that for timey wimey 🙂

    Osgoods death or “death” served it’s dramatic purpose perfectly with her still being dead or “dead” at the end of the episode.  If she is resurrected from being dead or downloaded ( myriad of other Doctor Whoisms for being saved) from being “dead” won’t detract for me the impact of the evilness of Missy

    I used the “….” for anything that is used to save her if she didn’t actually die

     

    #35461
    Apopheniac @apopheniac

    This probably should be in the Music thread, but it’s so apt right now that I wanted to share it with a wider audience.

    Ya ochen rad vyed ya nakonyets, Vozvrashchyayoos domoy

    #35462
    DrBen @drben

    @fonsini What exactly are you on about?

    First off, @phaseshift is more than just “one character” – he’s an important dude around here with a lot to contribute.

    Secondly, your conclusions are just plain wrong.  Neither the anti-American jabs or the anti-military jabs are new to this season or to the Moffat era.  The Doctor has expressed antipathy towards UNIT and the military in general since the early days of the show.  And personally, my favorite anti-American jab was (I’m paraphrasing) “Can you imagine the Americans with time travel?  You’ve seen their movies.”

    Short version: It’s a British show and it’s ridiculous to suggest that it shouldn’t have a British focus or bias.  Many of us Americans who watch the show are confessed Anglophiles.  But calling that “propoganda” is just silly.  It’s a TV show.

    And your claptrap about a “subtle but twisted liberal agenda” suggest that you’re exactly the type of American that Doctor Who is making fun of.  So take your lumps and move on.

    #35463
    Ozitenor @ozitenor

    Hi all, new here. I will introduce myself fully on the sofa.

    I hope this point has not already been made, if so, apologies for the redundancy, but I thought it very clever that when Danny cries (and quite a big deal of time is spent talking about that crying) in the opening of the season, it is a fabulous portent for his later becoming a cyberman (whose eyes have “built-in” teardrops) in the series finale.

    #35465
    lisa @lisa

    @fonsini – If you have a problem with the politics of this show then find a different kind of forum
    I agree with @drben and it doesn’t help your case to also ‘channel’ your personal political agenda
    btw – maybe you are what is wrong with America today – a blatant lack of inclusiveness and of the
    differences of peoples and opinions

    #35467
    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    @fonsini – ah, I’d forgotten about you,  kind of thought you’d gone off in a huff last time we collectively shut down your rather unpleasant and narrow minded nonsense.  Anyone who watches Doctor Who basically to count the number of black characters in order to work out whether this is ‘feasible’ or not really is in the wrong place.   Do please take your extremely unsubtle but definitely twisted illiberal agenda elsewhere.

    #35468
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @fonsini — it might have escaped your notice but @phaseshift is one of the site mods, as am I for that matter. Not really the people you want to be upsetting. Might be an idea to take your demented ravings back to the Daily Mail where there’ll at least be a receptive audience for them.

    #35469
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @fonsini     Sorry? The Doctor “is not supposed to”? Says who? I’m not aware that anyone writes the rules for the Doctor other than those who are actually writing the show. And as others have stated, and has been discussed frequently here throughout this run, the Doctor’s anti military viewpoint is not only not new, it has been a specific theme of Series 8. Sorry if you don’t agree with it, but as been made abundantly clear recently, we are not the ones telling the story.

    #35473
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @lisa

    However, something interesting is if you interpret the Galifrey coordinates from Missy as a date then it was the date that the US Congress voted to give GW war powers to invade Iraq

    Oh – that’s a splendid spot. Applause.

    I love this forum, you learn something new all the time.

    #35477
    Spider @spider

    Right, now that I’ve calmed down from laughing after reading those frankly ridiculous points:

    @fonsini – I couldn’t agree with you less.

    A prize to whoever knows where that quote comes from 😉  (no cheating and looking up the internet now!).

    (\(\;;/)/)

     

    #35478
    PaperMoon @papermoon

    @fonsini – characters played by British actors being portrayed as ‘the baddy’ on American T.V. or in movies would surely never happen. Ya think?

    #35479
    lisa @lisa

    @spider Regarding the quote — I want to guess that it was a comedian – or maybe a politician [or is that
    the same thing these days] ??

    #35481
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @phaseshift

    Absolutely stonking Masterspotting post! 😀 And yes please – a Master blog would be great

    @drben – Agree with you that it should help the cyberisation process if the “delete” emotions is voluntary. Make the newly “dead” completely terrified with lies about still being attached to what their body is feeling – on top of the realisation of actually being, y’know, dead and it makes sense they will press delete.  They would be in a state of despair, and wanting to not be able to feel any more. I would think that would make regression/fighting back much less likely.  The show has a history of strong individuals who are able to resist being cyberised fully (just as well for plot development really!), if their will and motivation is strong enough – but they are very rare.  And this is a different process from previous cybermen stories – these are Missy’s invention. Developed espeically to be the Doctor’s “birthday present”

    Presumably cremated bodies are no use, so the lie is essential to perpetuate the army.

    #35482
    lisa @lisa

    Thank you to @phaseshift for the new Master blog and for giving me an idea about resurrecting Osgood
    Well maybe it will be similar to how the Simm master and for that matter the Cybermen were resurrected.
    With just a little DNA ? The Simm master returned and so did the cyberman so why not “pollinate’
    as new Osgood? Could this even be a subtle hint about the “master” plan around Osgood ? Osgood did
    tell Missy that she could be useful just before she was killed – and Missy might also decide that
    Osgood might have had a point. Plus the Master has all kinds of experience in the resurrection business
    now. I just have a hunch about that but I still need to come up with a good enough reason as to why the
    Master will want to bring back Osgood – all input is welcome !!!

    #35483
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @apopheniac I’m with you re Danny. I think he was a damaged PTSD ex soldier who just wanted a quiet life! I’ve got my fingers x’d that we’ll get Sam Anderson back as Orson 🙂

    @rob

    Well in the eternal triangle of Bucks, Oxon and Northamptonshire  where the winds blow, the rain cascsdes and the earth slowly liquifies into a soul sapping gelatinous ooze….

    That is a brilliantly vivid description. No wonder you need copious doses of extra strong caffeine!

    @lisa – re bringing Osgood back  – what happened to all the cybermen who were exploded by Danny? Did their consciousnesses all get sucked back into the Nethersphere…? In which case, maybe Osgood with them? (Did I mention how much I love your avatar btw? Distinctly creepy! 🙂 )

    @ozitenor Nice spot on the parallel between Danny’s tear early in the series and the cybermen logo

     

    Hmm, some bridge rebuilding needed I see!! Or maybe just replacing some slimy rocks! 😈

    #35485
    lisa @lisa

    @ – I’m glad you like my Avatar – Some one but I cant remember who {endless apologies
    maybe it was you} said it reminded them of a jelly baby army on the march ! Regarding those
    particular Cybermen that blew up the black clouds – I don’t think they may have been from the
    Nethersphere – IMO I rather think they all rose up out of their graves in which case I don’t
    really think/know they get saving??

    #35486
    lisa @lisa

    Sorry that last post was for @scaryb !! big oops !

    #35487
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @lisa – But the dead could only rise from their graves as cybermen once their (or someone else’s) consciousness had been downloaded from the Nethersphere. And all the dead ever, up to the point of the episode were uploaded to the Nethersphere (so they could then be downloaded as cybermen). So if they died as cybermen – would they then by re-uploaded?  The Nethersphere was closing down, but still functional for a little while. Danny gets back and rescues the boy, so maybe there’s still a little glimmer of hope for Osgood?

    #35489
    Anonymous @

    whey hey heeey.  I wake up to 80 emails from DinH!  And there’s a nutter…..Liberal? Propagandist?  Ha! I’m a virtual socialist these days….so. Take. That. And. That.

    Right  (wipes hands)

    @phaseshift Brilliant. What a read with coffee upon waking: the boards are a-live tonight people! Agree with Gomez as ‘mad as a tree’ (in a good way). I think she is my favourite although for whatever reason I liked Simm’s  noddy portrayal. He…pulled it off…I think. But, we’re in the business of opinions here so that’s just mine but yes, since, watching old Who, Delgado is redoubtable.

    Kindest, sleep well all. Puro.

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