Hell Bent

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  • #48882
    GothamCelt @gothamcelt

    I liked this episode a lot. I think that those who felt let down, or that this was an anti climax, may have been too engrossed in last week’s episode. I was very much in the minority in thinking last week’s episode was a pile of  self indulgent, silly tripe. I stand by that thought. Really, we could have gone from the end of ‘Raven’ to the start of this episode with virtually no difference. Well, nothing that quipped line wouldn’t have explained.

    The ‘Tardis as a Diner’ thin reminded me of a short story I read a long time ago about a space ship disguised as a Diner where unsuspecting customers were abducted. Can anyone shed any light on that?

    Back to the episode. Well done. Well written. Well acted. Music too intrusive (again) but you can’t have everything. Clara came into her own after the demise of Danny Pink. That whole Hollyoaks thing was turgid. A fitting finale that leaves a lot to offer. I am sure we will see the Diner and it’s occupants again. And whoever came up with the phrase ‘Thelma and Louise in Space’, well done.

    #48883
    DoctorDalek17 @doctordalek17

    @pedant

    So the Doctor just wanted it to be said non politically.

     

    #48884

    @doctordalek17

    No. He wanted the truth, without the filter of politics, without the spin-doctoring.

    #48885
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @midnyt    Not sure that Clara’s ending was meant as “leaving it open for her to come back”, more as something that Moffat saw as a reasonably positive and convincing end to Clara’s character arc. As you didn’t like the character then it might not matter as much to you, but for someone who did like Clara, it was really a very uplifting finish for her. Because she really has become unfit for normal life, hasn’t she? But killing her in the way she died was pretty harsh (although admittedly moving). This way, it’s like she gets a reward for all that she has been through, as opposed to going through a lot of awful and then dying horribly.

    @gothamcelt   I know you didn’t mean this, but you have reminded me that much of Capaldi’s first episode took place in a space ship disguised as a restaurant.   🙂

    #48886
    lisa @lisa

    So now the Doctor is again Lord President.  Also President of Earth.   Lots of commuting !

     

    Anyway,  already curious about the next season and what other unfinished

    business from this season may be continued.  Maybe Missy’s very clever idea?

    I cant  see  many clues to any of that  but I am wondering  where SM  wants to

    go now with his  Doctor adventures?

    #48887
    Anonymous @

    Sorry if someone has already mentioned this, but the housekeeper (or should it be the Housekeeper?) said the bedroom in the barn is “for the boys. If any of them want to come back…” Boys, plural.

    Ohila also calls the Doctor “boy”. Might we suspect she’s actually Gallifreyan? Perhaps a relative or teacher?

     

    #48889
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    I’m going to guess Ashildr and Clara’s Tardis is going to start exhibiting signs of taking them where they need to go versus where they want to go.

    Because I think both their Tardis and the Doctor’s Tardis were programmed by the Matrix while they were in for repair.  I think the Doctor is more directly an agent of the Matrix after his encounter with it as a student.

    And that gives Rassilon something for a multi-season war with the Doctor.  Because I think Rassilon’s first attempts will be pathetic, sort of like Morbius but instead of stitching together a Frankenstein monster to serve as a body, Rassilon will be trying to stitch together a collection of scum of the universe as a rag-tag army.

    The second attempts will be much more dangerous because Rassilon’s advantage is he was around for the very beginning of Gallifrey.  What if Rassilon figured out he could corrupt the Doctor by corrupting the Matrix way in the past?

    And of course when the arc is done, the Doctor can be freed of the Matrix’s influence.

    #48890
    RorySmith @rorysmith

    After a rewatch and successfully explaining the hybrid to some others, I now realize something Moffat was telling us. I am a religious person so it was having to see organized religion for what is from another perspective. I belive now that there is no hybrid. The TLs were hair trigger happy over anything the Matrix spews out and this was one. Many people in extreme religious groups would do the same. My lesson is to be careful when learning of prophecy because you may be led into a lie.

    On a second note, since the memory wiper was one set for humans, why did it work on the Doctor? Confirmed part human?

    I pictured at the end with Me and the Doctor as if they were simply members of this forum hypothesizeing theories as to who or what was the hybrid. Maybe they are. That was a nice poke at us Whovians who spend more time clammering over what could be and not just enjoy it. Guilty here. He has done this avfew times and in interviews pretty much admitted it was intentionaly aimed at us.

    My second lesson came from the whole arc of Clara. He obsessed over her since realizing she was Oswin and spent more time trying to figure her out than he should. She was a trap for the Master’s entertainment. Lots of tragic things happened as a result. We are guilty of being too obsessed with many things ourselves and mis out on life’s many joys.

    Snif. 😥

    #48891

    @Morpho

    Sorry if someone has already mentioned this, but the housekeeper (or should it be the Housekeeper?) said the bedroom in the barn is “for the boys. If any of them want to come back…” Boys, plural.

    If you recall, that is entirely consistent with what happened in Listen (although the house seems to have disappeared, possible along with the fertility of the region thanks to the Time War).

    Ohila also calls the Doctor “boy”. Might we suspect she’s actually Gallifreyan? Perhaps a relative or teacher?

    I think Karn fancy themselves as a cut above mere Time Lords.

    #48892
    Anonymous @

    @pedant

    I totally agree with you  (Son here: I missed bus and I’m getting picked by a friend and we are going to sport activities) :  And such economy can be used to devastatingly efficient impact: “They’ll kill you.” Not an exclamation – a recognition.

    But why don’t others on other Forums get that? Is it the diet of TV we live on? To me and because of Mum and the books she pushes on me to read and the tv shows, I feel that we don’t need to have things spelled out. I was watching West Wing at 4 and also The Social Network when it came out. I really liked Sorkin’s material and of course, Whedon’ s which reminds me of Moffat’s way of doing things.

    So I think you are right in suggesting he is economical. Also @midnyt (I love your avatar)  I’m sorry you didn’t like some of that episode. I believe that others have mentioned her death is still coming.  Could we say that “death isn’t the final frontier?” In that this whole season,  we have been shown how death is not the only thing to be nervous of. The Doctor nearly killed Clara and the Dalek sewers were alive. Yuck! Now the Dr may not remember Clara and the whole Impossible Girl  who saved him. To me, that is far worse than death. Far worse, but that’s just my opinion and I’m glad you enjoyed the series. Some people didn’t like Clara and I think I got sick of her too but with the Smith season. With Capaldi she has blown mum and I away.

    I think she’s an incredible actress and also a compelling and very versatile companion who is, more than ever, not just a companion -she is The hybrid with the Doctor. As mum is saying, metaphors abound. They have never meant so much in any season until this one. But I appreciate your opinions and it’s good to see you back as you haven’t been on the boards lately? I wonder if you liked Heaven Sent at all? Also lots of people die in Who: Danny died and all those soldiers as well as Jac.

    But anyway, I hope you are looking forward to the Chrsitmas special like I am! Bring it on!!

    @bobbyfat

    Yes, me too: I loved that old circular Tardis with the fantastic diner hurtling through space and time now. That was awesome!

    @nerys yes, mum pointed that out to @the-war-doctor yesterday too! Great minds think alike  🙂

    @the-war-doctoris the Hybrid really just a myth?” I’m pretty sure that the hybrid was the Doctor and Clara -look how much time he spent keeping her secrets safe -knowing that the Timelords  hurt her and could want her. She was an especial person. An almost-Doctor in herself. So, I believe that ultimately he had become too close to his Clara and his duty of care had been taken so seriously that it could have damaged him and yet in the end, despite his care, Clara died anyway. That is so sad and so absolutely true in life. No matter what we do, we cannot always keep the people we love. Sometimes they die, sometimes they ring us 415 times (like the Dr rang Clara in the Zygon Invasion) and sometimes they forget us. Like a dementia patient who forgets his own wife.

    I was thinking about why the Council of TLs would be so interested in prophecies or beliefs? I think they were obsessed with knowing where the Dr was, when they could be removed from the end of the universe because they were always in control of the universe: they controlled and patrolled time. Now they had become these dusty, jaded men keeping the poorer people down and themselves up. Even Rassilon the Resurrected was like a champion of the richer aristocrats. The Doctor said “gardening is like dictatorship for inadequates” and I think that is a perfect metaphor for the TL: constantly gardening: digging holes, covering them up, digging again and getting nowhere except beating their chest and trying to kill the one who was the war hero and saved the people on Gallifrey. Because the TLs had time on their hands, they could constantly preoccupy themselves with what was going on in the cloisters. They should have not listened -found other things to do.

    Also, in Trenzalore that’s where the TLs come to die? Yet, after that, their spirits come back to the cloister and hang around forever. It sounds a  bit spooky to me? Does anyone feel spooked?

    Art imitates life. I’m sure the older people will know that saying. I only learned it today.

    Thankyou for being patient with me and thankyou for reading

    Son and Puro

     

    #48893
    Anonymous @

    @pedant

    I’m sure you’re right, but my memory of it is that the young Doctorling sleeps in the barn *instead* of with the other children. But I’m probably misremembering.

    Also, the other “boys”… return from where, I wonder.

    #48894
    Anonymous @

    @rorysmith

    Oh yes I loved that too:

    pictured at the end with Me and the Doctor as if they were simply members of this forum hypothesizeing theories as to who or what was the hybrid. Maybe they are. That was a nice poke at us Whovians

    Our posts crossed because I also said that the TLs should have found something better to do than listen to prophecies which can be just false and nonsense as you said. We do have to be aware of what false propehcies can be. I don’t think that the TLs or the Doctor is religious -which is good thing I believe.

    I’m sort of religious but not really. Hard to explain. But I totally get where you’re coming from there and its a good explanation.

    On a second note, since the memory wiper was one set for humans, why did it work on the Doctor? Confirmed part human?

    I think that it’s human compatible -but that doesn’t mean that it’s not TL incompatible? It works on both and both equally. I think that was the point.

    Son of Puro. Thankyou

    #48895

    @Morpho

    Correct – but you are not allowing for the passage of time. There is no house there anymore (probably due to the War). So they keep the barn ready.

    #48897
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @tardigrade

    Working my way through comments, so only on page 1. Apologies if other people have already raised these points.

    To complete the emotional arc of the story, Clara has to face the raven.

    No. That’s the emotional arc of a tragedy. As I’ve said before, it’s the Doctor who thinks he’s playing the starring role in a tragedy. However, the universe – in the person of the current producer – knows he’s playing the starring role in a comedy.

    It’s not that people don’t die in comedies, but that the comedy ending is one of growth and wholeness. So if Clara spends her arc growing towards being the Doctor, the comedy ending is that she flies off in her very own TARDIS – a Doctor. Like Winter’s Tale, she had her time where the audience thought her dead. But that death didn’t come in the final act. 🙂

    Comedy ending: Series 5: marriage, Rory and Amy. Series 6: marriage, River and the Doctor. Series 7 and associated Specials, the saving of the children of Gallifrey and the rebirth of the Doctor. Series 8, Father Christmas saving Clara and the Doctor’s relationship (and their lives) and now Series 9 – the adopted daughter sets off on an independent life and her Space Dad can be simply ‘The Doctor’ again.

    Clara’s final ending is death, because she’s human. But comedies concentrate on the life we lead before we die: which is Moffat’s big thing. Moffat’s writing a classic comedy, not a tragedy.

    Face the Raven would have been a very bad ending to Clara’s arc (my opinion), because the writer really had to work overtime to kill her – Clara’s death relied far too heavily on sheer bad luck. If it was the final death of a companion, that would’ve been … unsatisfactory (again, my opinion). And, as I’ve said, creating an arc that sets up a female companion who acts more and more like the Doctor – and then gets killed by acting like the Doctor – yeah. Unfortunate Implications. 😕

    When we see Face The Raven in hindsight, as the ‘regeneration’ story of Clara into Doctor Clara, it makes more sense (the Doctor’s regenerations often occur through sheer bad luck).

    Clara’s death is, as the Time Lords know, a fixed point. But what they didn’t realise is why. It’s a fixed point because, without that death, Clara can’t become the human equivalent of a Time Lord.

    Incidentally, I think Rassillon was supposed to be weak and ineffectual. If you notice, all the monsters in this story are weak and ineffectual. As @puroandson points out, the real monster is The Doctor himself, becoming The War Doctor again.

    The man who was so sure he was right, he killed his own race.

    #48898

    @puroandson

    TLs should have found something better to do than listen to prophecies

    You got distracted by the terminology. What was described was not a prophecy, drawn from rune casting or tarot, but a forecast made by technology and algorithms.

    They weren’t being superstitious. They were scared.

    Fortunately, while the Master may be a lover of chaos, The Doctor is an adherent to Chaos Theory. He will always try to change the initial conditions.

    #48899
    Anonymous @

    @gothamcelt

    Oh yes, I think the Diner was a Douglas Adams story. I think Mum said that name?

    I loved the music in both episodes. I’d have to be in the not minority who probably think the music in the last two episodes was the best I’ve ever heard in any Who at all.

    I don’t know what mum thinks about that but being a conductor, I think she’d agree. But I understand that the music can be loud and can stop us understanding the actual lines and that can stop us from understanding what is happening in the story so I totally get your point there.

    I did love last week’s and Mum has seen it 7 times -she thought it was the best Who episode she’s ever seen but there you go, everyone is equal in having their favourites and the ones they diss which is perfectly fine. It’s really good though to be able to always support your reasoning as my teachers say. Without evidence it’s hard to fully understand why an episode isn’t liked. But then this isn’t a Doctor Who Acadmey and people are able to say quickly that they hated it.  I don’t think you can be too engrossed in anything that is art if it is good. I believe it was absolutely gorgeous and so we are engrossed in it and yet loved Hell Bent as well. I think you can like them both or maybe neither and that’s OK. 🙂

    I’m glad you liked Hell Bent . I can see, coming from a dry place, why the Doctor would love Gallifrey.  I loved the barn scene too!  Also glad you liked the series: I’m thinking a lot of people are positive about this series. I hope Moffat doesn’t leave just yet. 🙁

    #48900
    Anonymous @

    @pedant

    Oh I see now: so they had to be aware of this then. Not just some glib religious prophecy. And considering they don’t seem to be believers in that kind of thing, I can understand how your expression makes more sense and how serious the TL found that this  was “a forecast made by technology”  

    Oh bravo I get it much better now. @rorysmith that might help too -this explanation?

    It helped me but then others probably understood it more than me. Who nose? <<*\*<<

    Thankyou

    #48901
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip Hallo Miss. I think that’s really good explanation about why and how we can accept that Clara’s death wasn’t the final frontier -if she’d died that way then it would saying “it’s OK to dream about being a Doctor but if you do try then you’ll die trying. ”

    I think Mum had a different opi ion to that than me but in terms of why Hell Bents ending doesn’t betray the final scenes of Face the Raven, your explanation is really good. I think a few people really thought that it took away from the emotional punch of the whole arc if she’s suddenly alive again but I’ve said all that already. But when I type that to people, they don’t respond ? I guess people are very busy but it’s nice to have a conversation amongst us -that’s why we like it here.

    Thank you for tagging me. That was very kind. I think that the Doctor in this episode was the epitome (?) of scary in this episode. I also was taught in philosophy this year about opera buffa, comedy and tragedy and what the later word really means? People often get that mixed up I find but I totally understand why as its complicated !

    But comedies concentrate on the life we lead before we die: which is Moffat’s big thing. 

    Yes I can see that now. I would think that life is about all the events which happen before we die and that death is always around the corner: Dan died in a puff of smoke. Clara because of her actions. The Doctor had to heal himself by saving her but then losing her again. But she didn’t lose herself.

    The fact that the Doctor, can’t remember his Clara is a classic tragedy. Perhaps it is both buffa and tragic? From one perspective it is classical tragedy and from another it is comedy?

    Just my opinion Miss Blue. Also I’ve been hogging the forum and will go now to school for breakup activities for Christmas. Sorry about my long posts Mr Moderators. It’s been a pleasure being here with Mum

    Thankyou for reading.

     

    #48902
    Anonymous @

    Four questions/observations that may or may not have come up…

    The General’s regeneration seemed pretty toned down. We may have come in at the tail end, but there were no signs of damage. New regeneration style, or perhaps on Gallifrey these things can be tempered somewhat?

    One of the Cloister Wraiths had a very familiar face. Looks like the Castillan is not resting in peace.

    Was the coat Hurt’s? Didn’t recognise it out of context.

    Watching that last scene with the new sonic, etc. I’m suspecting Rachel Talalay is generating a bit of a crush on Capaldi. As, for that matter, am I. <3

    #48903
    RorySmith @rorysmith

    Im watching Snowmen right now. Lol

    We can also speculate that not all of Clara’s echoes really are. Did she put the diner there for the Astronaut meeting? It was on the othe side of the hill in Utah. Maybe it just copied that one but why take the tardis sll the way to the US in the other tardis? More for us to waste time speculating? Moffat is our puppet master.

    #48904
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @bluesqueakpip

    Interesting that you could view this as a comedy…

    The problem I have is the lack of growth in this ending- the Doctor is left with memory loss and it’s unclear whether he’s really learnt much- he’s done something grossly irresponsible and instead of learning from it has erased much of it from his memory and abdicated responsibility for fixing it. And Clara certainly hasn’t learnt responsibility- she’s off without proper adult (TL) supervision, potentially risking the fate of the universe, with someone who apparently allowed her to die, and trying to fly a tardis from the instruction manual. Her facing the raven completes a tragic arc- I agree that her original death was more than a little unsatisfactory- but having her return voluntarily to face the raven would have been an eminently appropriate conclusion IMO. The ending here fails to complete any kind of story arc – tragic, comedic or otherwise – at least for me, and feels like the writer losing his nerve to finish things off as he knows they should be in his own narrative.

    Incidentally, I think Rassillon was supposed to be weak and ineffectual. If you notice, all the monsters in this story are weak and ineffectual. As @puroandson points out, the real monster is The Doctor himself, becoming The War Doctor again.

    Yes- I realise that now- I was disappointed in the portrayal of Rassilon, and failed to realise on first viewing that it was his character that has changed. There’s plenty of scope for him to come back fired up though 🙂

    #48905
    RorySmith @rorysmith

    I caught the serpents again. This time intwined. They are on the sign in front of the diner. I see the meaning now. Wow.

    There is NOT a Jackson Nevada.

    #48906
    nerys @nerys

    @tardigrade I’m not sure I agree with you about him forgetting almost everything and abdicating responsibility. Clearly he knows what he did, and his role in it. After all, he is the one telling Clara the story … about what he did as a result of her. The only thing is, he doesn’t realize it’s Clara he is talking to, because his memory of her details, her essence – that to which he connected, emotionally, and what drove him to do what he did – is gone. But his memory of all that happened is still there. So I don’t think for a moment that he failed to learn from this. I believe he has learned.

    I have a more mundane question. On second viewing tonight, I see that Clara hands the sonic sunglasses back to the Doctor, who then slides them into his jacket pocket. As far as I can tell, that’s the last we see of them. Then, after he boards the TARDIS, he creates a sonic screwdriver. I guess I assumed the glasses would have to be damaged or lost before he would replace them with some other tool. Ideally I’d have thought Clara would keep them and use them on her adventures with Ashildr/Me, but that didn’t happen.

    #48907
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @morpho

    The General’s regeneration seemed pretty toned down. We may have come in at the tail end, but there were no signs of damage. New regeneration style, or perhaps on Gallifrey these things can be tempered somewhat?

    Regenerations might go more smoothly on Gallifrey- the environment does appear to have some impact? It does seem though that the Doctor’s regenerations are unusually energetic/traumatic. Might be some evidence he is half-human and they don’t come as naturally?

    @rorysmith

    On a second note, since the memory wiper was one set for humans, why did it work on the Doctor? Confirmed part human?

    It was described as “human-compatible”, so I think that was side-stepped. Presumably they’re normally intended for TLs, but not all would work on humans.

    @alexwho

    A great way to end a strong series of episodes (except Sleep No More). As everything with WHO there are a lot of unanswerd questions to debate about.

    If Capaldi hasn’t won you over by now then theres no performance he can give that will do it.

    I’m nowhere near as keen on this episode as you are, but still put it ahead of Sleep No More, which was the low point of the series for me also. Other than that, agreed that it’s been a strong series that I’m sorry is over.

    I was one who was initially iffy about casting an older Doctor again after enjoying the dynamics of the younger Doctors since the reboot, but Capaldi’s brought a lot that’s new to the role, which has kept things fresh, and of course he has serious acting chops. So I’m long since won over.

    @jphamlore

    I also think the Doctor was the student who succeeded in escaping the Cloisters. He describes his younger self who stole the President’s daughter and lost the moon as a bit mad, same as that student.

    Yes, I think that was pretty firmly established. Missy had previously mentioned those same events (moon / daughter) as pertaining to the Doctor.

    #48908
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    OK, time for a little wild speculation…

    I mentioned previously that the lifetime of the universe appears to have shrunk from 100 trillion years (S3 Utopia) to more like 20 billion. Is it possible that the hybrid prophecy has actually been fulfilled? The actions of the Doctor / Clara may actually have “fractured” time and the best the universe has been able to do to repair itself is this much reduced version (0.02%) of itself. There would be untold billions of creatures that never lived because of this.

    #48910
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @nerys

    I have a more mundane question. On second viewing tonight, I see that Clara hands the sonic sunglasses back to the Doctor, who then slides them into his jacket pocket. As far as I can tell, that’s the last we see of them. Then, after he boards the TARDIS, he creates a sonic screwdriver. I guess I assumed the glasses would have to be damaged or lost before he would replace them with some other tool. Ideally I’d have thought Clara would keep them and use them on her adventures with Ashildr/Me, but that didn’t happen.

    I didn’t interpret the sonic screwdriver as replacing lost sunglasses. He reads “Be a Doctor” on the blackboard, puts on his “Doctor” jacket and takes up his sonic screwdriver- apparently fully willing to be the Doctor full-time again.

    #48912
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @bluesqueakpip: I don’t agree that Clara’s death was due to “bad luck.”  I think what is being portrayed is that the Doctor and Clara are in a “can’t live with ’em, can’t live without ’em” relationship, which is why it had to be broken by one of them forgetting about the other.

    At some fundamental level, Clara and the Doctor simply can’t communicate with each other.  They showed this in Death in Heaven when they almost broke up for good with Clara thinking she was doing the Doctor a favor lying about Danny and the Doctor thinking he was doing a favor lying about Gallifrey.   Their relationship had to be saved, in my opinion, by the actual Santa Claus.  Again in Face the Raven, Clara knows she is doing something the Doctor would never approve, so she is determined to not communicate with him, a decision that costs her her life.  It is a miracle her death did not occur before.

    And in Hell Bent the same dynamic occurs with both wanting to make unilateral decisions for the other.

    The Doctor and Clara’s relationship took the toxicity of the Doctor and Rose’s relationship to a whole ‘nother level.  At least the Doctor and Rose could be fixed by making a one-lifed clone of the Doctor for Rose to play with.  Absolutely nothing could fix the Doctor and Clara other than literally pretending their relationship never happened.

    #48913
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @Morpho    Ohila also calls the Doctor “boy”. Might we suspect she’s actually Gallifreyan? Perhaps a relative or teacher?    This moment jumped out at me as well. I liked it. It hinted at a relationship that predates the Time War. Certainly the Doctor seems to have a relationship of some trust with Ohila at least, if not the rest of the Sisterhood.

    @puroandson    But why don’t others on other Forums get that?    I know, the questions people ask. “How can he remember she existed if she was completely wiped from his memory?” Well, obviously, she wasn’t completely wiped from his memory. Where did it say she was? I know it was suggested that she might be, but it clearly didn’t happen.

    So, I believe that ultimately he had become too close to his Clara and his duty of care had been taken so seriously that it could have damaged him and yet in the end, despite his care, Clara died anyway. That is so sad and so absolutely true in life. No matter what we do, we cannot always keep the people we love. Sometimes they die, sometimes they ring us 415 times (like the Dr rang Clara in the Zygon Invasion) and sometimes they forget us. Like a dementia patient who forgets his own wife.     Yes, exactly.  This is something that we humans understand but the Doctor seems to need to learn it over and over.

    (By the way, Son of Puro, is school almost done for you? I seem to remember from past conversations with Puro that you get a long break in December. Right now Arbutus Jr. has two more weeks until his two-week Christmas break and if he could time-travel it rather than taking the long way around, he would do it in a heartbeat!)

    @bluesqueakpip    Brilliant post, especially this:  It’s a fixed point because, without that death, Clara can’t become the human equivalent of a Time Lord. In the end, tragedies deal with critical failure; Doctor Who can’t be about that!

    #48914
    Anonymous @

    @tardigrade

    on the notes below

    On a second note, since the memory wiper was one set for humans, why did it work on the Doctor? Confirmed part human?

    It was described as “human-compatible”, so I think that was side-stepped. Presumably they’re normally intended for TLs, but not all would work on humans.

    In my post (or the 14 year olds) it was stated that the memory wipe was compatible for humans but that does not mean it’s incompatible  with TLs, yeah? So I think you’re right there.

    Also, I don’t think, and this is me personally, that there’s evidence (beyond that movie!) that the Doctor is half human. I just think that the neuro wipe is compatible with TLs as well. He did say, clearly, it would be painless and yet it wasn’t  -for him. When Donna was ‘wiped’ it was painless but for the Doctor, not at all and that could be, as Son was suggesting, because it’s not entirely  now compatible with TLs? Also, if its TL tech then I imagine  it would have to be compatible with TL at any point which is what happened. Unless I’m losing my mind…. 🙂

    Kindest, Puro

    #48915
    Anonymous @

    @tardigrade

    no, the Greek version of comedy -not the entire America/Australian version of the comic – I believe what @bluesqueakpip was referring to was quite different but yes, there was the comic quality as opposed to the tragedy -the classical version as I also said upthread.

    #48916
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus

    yes this is Mother of Son: indeed you are right. He has a couple more days -and these are mainly huge time wasting activities -boiling in 30 degree heat and 100% humidity-sports and Christmas card making which, when you’re 14 is dastardly. He likes to bake though and will do that at home quite happily if the kitchen’s oven isn’t belching out too much unprotected heat.

    If Son were here he would wish Young Arbutus a few happy few weeks but probably do the Ozzie thing: “na naa ni-nah nah I have 4 more weeks than you!”

    So mature.

    🙂

    But I have been proud of him on this site particularly when trying to explain time and that’s awfully difficult for me! Also, trying to understand how some people don’t get certain things. He’s a bit of a thinker and that’s down to some wonderfully clever teachers who have him inspired to look ‘beyond’.

    As it turns out he did a semester of philosophy mixed with Greek drama and tragedy which helped him to understand how people say 2 things all the time (my tongue is in cheek here) :  a) “oh, that’s lazy writing” and b) ‘that’s a Deus ex machina’

    When it’s neither.

    He does love the Forum and the people in it and the way people by and large converse ably with one another and “with good cheer” and roundabout now, with atrocities all over the world, we need some cheer.

    Anyway I am waaaay off topic. We are all Hell Bent…..atrocities etc….people need redemption (flailing about looking for analogies and corridors back….)

    Puro

    #48919
    nerys @nerys

    @tardigrade

    I didn’t interpret the sonic screwdriver as replacing lost sunglasses. He reads “Be a Doctor” on the blackboard, puts on his “Doctor” jacket and takes up his sonic screwdriver- apparently fully willing to be the Doctor full-time again.

    That makes sense. Thank you!

    #48921
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @tardigrade    Actually, I think in some ways that it is Clara who is now more “adult” than the Doctor. It wasn’t Clara that threatened all of time and space etc. etc. to save her own life. That was the Doctor. Clara has grown up, she is ready for Time Lordish responsibilities now.

    Nice bonkers theory on the life of the universe!

    @purandson   For the record, my view on the “half-human” Doctor is that unless and until we are directly told in story that that is the case, I will never for an instant believe it!  🙂  (I don’t think I’m ARSE-ish enough to keep it out of my head canon in direct contradiction of the show, although you never know!)

    Isn’t it wonderful when once in awhile students are taught critical thinking? A few years back, I was terrifically pleased that young Arbutus had been taught a list of parameters for different levels of writing that allowed him to make the judgement that the Harry Potter books were “fun, but not great writing”. Since this was my view, I quite naturally thought it was a brilliant judgement.  🙂

    #48924
    lisa @lisa

    Conspiracy theory after watching HB tonight

    The Doctor left the sonic glasses on the console on purpose knowing Clara

    would watch on the screen,  He also left the mind wiper there. He set it up?

    He figured out that he had to part from Clara.   So was he making it easier for

    her?  Seems to me that he really didn’t loose a lot of his memory.  I really get

    that feeling.   The Doctor lies.  Again.

    #48926
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @puroandson

    When Donna was ‘wiped’ it was painless but for the Doctor, not at all and that could be, as Son was suggesting, because it’s not entirely now compatible with TLs?

    I don’t think we saw Donna wiped and it was using a different process anyway (telepathic). I’m imagining that if you did create a device that could erase memories and it was painful, that one of the memories you’d have it erase is of the pain. I can imagine the technician saying “This won’t hurt a bit”, starting it up and mumbling under his breath “so far as you’ll remember, anyway”.

    #48927
    winston @winston

    Hello everyone!  I watched twice before posting so I could absorb more of this fantastic ending to a great series. I don’t know if it answered all my questions but it never does (thank goodness). Capaldi was superb as usual, as was Jenna. I am sorry to see her go but Clara’s exciting ending, flying off in her own Tardis with Me, was fun and satisfying. Clara is still sort of alive, and keeping Me company and the “Doctor is In”.

    Sad and beautiful.

     

    #48928
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus

    “‘Arry Potta not great writing!”

    Oh no, that can’t be! We are all doomed.

    🙂

    #48929
    Anonymous @

    @tardigrade

    if you did create a device that could erase memories and it was painful, that one of the memories you’d have it erase is of the pain. I can imagine the technician saying “This won’t hurt a bit”, starting it up and mumbling under his breath “so far as you’ll remember, anyway”

    Excellent point! 🙂 (“just a little prick now” Ow!!)    🙂

    I thought that with Donna, it was inverse as @pedant said -but not an exact replica of experience -a metaphorical inverse if you will.

    #48930
    Anonymous @

    @mudlark

    I must thank you for a beautiful insightful analysis of the episode. So thought provoking and meticulous and in its way, musical. A real delight.

    @winston, I agree -Clara got her wish. So glad you enjoyed it.  To see things and have adventures and save people but with Ashildr. She will also keep Ashildr on the right side of ‘safe’

    Puro

     

    #48931
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @arbutus

    Actually, I think in some ways that it is Clara who is now more “adult” than the Doctor. It wasn’t Clara that threatened all of time and space etc. etc. to save her own life. That was the Doctor. Clara has grown up, she is ready for Time Lordish responsibilities now.

    I could get on board with that if she returned to face the raven again at the end of the story and do her best to undo the damage. When she flits off, seemingly on a whim, she’s avoiding responsibility and becomes complicit in the decision. She’s also left it to the flip of a coin whether she even gets a chance to do what she knows she should. So I for one wouldn’t be granting her a tardis license as a responsible adult.

    #48932
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    I was just thinking about Clara/Me’s tardis being stuck as a diner. I’m suspicious that’s because the tardis’ consciousness likes it that way, rather than some dodgy chameleon circuit malarkey. Me is trying to troubleshoot the problem by reading the service manual. Given her memory issues, I would have thought it unlikely she’d have learnt to read Gallifreyan and managed to retain the knowledge, so presumably the tardis is translating it for her telpathically, and might be giving her a bum steer to stop her fixing the problem 🙂

    #48933
    Anonymous @

    @tardigrade

    I think that young Clara has saved countless lives. The Doctor stole his Tardis on a whimsy (or because he was plain scared ) and couldn’t drive the jolly thing. He escaped with someone pretty important. I don’t think he was responsible and he was ninety-something! He runs and he tells people to do exactly that. She’s had a pretty good mentor. 🙂

    The fact that Clara continuously offered to go back to Trap Street and said to the Doctor that his duty of care was something not for him to give her (because she never asked for it) suggests that she understands her position pretty well. On top of that, she’s crumbled the  GI, jumped into the Doctor’s timestream and saved him 11 times at great peril when he hadn’t recognised her presence. She’s aware the raven is waiting and that she has some wiggle room -not eons of it, though.

    In many episodes, too, like Under the Lake, and some of last year’s series, Clara saved countless people  -I think we all owe her one.  🙂

    #48935
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @puroandson

    The Doctor stole his Tardis on a whimsy (or because he was plain scared ) and couldn’t drive the jolly thing.

    Clara/Me are in a stolen tardis and the last we saw Me, she had the manual out trying to work out how to operate it, so I can’t give you that one 🙂

    Though yes- she’s done considerable good- she has been emulating the Doctor- the good and the bad.

    #48936
    GothamCelt @gothamcelt

    @puroandson

    Thanks for the info on the short story, appreciated. I didn’t want to rant about my dislike of last week’s episode because it could easily be mistaken for trolling. Also, most people on here loved it and I didn’t see any point on raining on that particular parade.

    On other points. I also think the mind wipe thing will have only partially worked but this does not necessarily mean The Doctor is partially human ( although, he might be).

    On the ‘Comedy’ ending….. In Shakespearian terms that usually means they get married at the end. That certainly puts an interesting light on the Thelma and Louise in Space thing.

    I also think that there was a fair amount of religious referencing in this series, particularly towards the end.

    Next up, the Christmas episode. Hmm, most of those have been disappointing. Well, here’s hoping this is a good one. Looking forward very much to the next series.

    #48937
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @tardigrade    I like the idea that the TARDIS prefers to look like a diner and so just sticks that way. Why not? We know the Doctor’s TARDIS has some firm views, and possibly prefers to look like a blue box.  🙂

    #48938
    Ozitenor @ozitenor

    My observations and questions to the hive-mind:

    1. Sunglasses: Clara gives them back to the Doctor who, later in the diner puts them on the countertop to connect his electric guitar to the speaker system. BUT, the diner and the furniture in it are all part of Clara’s shiny new TARDIS, so when she dematerialises to leave the Doctor alone in the desert with his old TARDIS, the sunglasses have stayed presumably on the diner counter, and are now in the ClaraTardis for use by Clara and Me in their future wiggle-room adventures.

    2. I absolutely 100% agree with @lisa – the Doctor likely knew Clara would watch him outside with Me, left the glasses there for her, knew she would “reverse the polarity” and so forth. He always intended it to be him to get the memory wipe. In fact, when they arrive at the end of time Clara asks him what they are doing here. He says he only needs to stay there a minute to change some programming on the black memory wiping device. And yet, he never actually does any of that. I think the minute he needed was in fact the ‘minute’ he knew it would take Clara to watch him talk to Me and reprogram the device. When he hears the 4 knocks he doesn’t act surprised. In fact he knows it is Me before he even walks outside.

    3. This is what REALLY confuses me. I have watched the episode 3 times now, the last time with lots of pausing and thinking and rewinding. Clara takes the passed out Doctor back to Earth in her timeframe, and drops him in an American desert, instructing a man to be there for when he wakes up to help him (why she picks there, I do not know). Then at some point soon after I presume she must surely go off to London to pick up the Doctor’s TARDIS and store it inside her ClaraTardis – to be revealed as she dematerialises at the end of the episode. (Note: a TARDIS can be stored inside another TARDIS, remembering the Master did this way back in the day). Now, here is where it gets confusing to me:

    — how long has the Doctor been wandering around before he walks into the diner? … long enough to get himself from the US to London to discover somebody has removed his TARDIS from there (as he says). And long enough to piece together the Clara-shaped hole in his memory. A year? a month? … it has been some amount of time. He hasn’t woken up in the desert and walked for an hour into the nearest diner, that’s for sure. He is sporting a brand new red guitar, different from the black and white one presumably still back inside his missing TARDIS. He had to get that from somewhere.

    — and here’s the rub; Why is the Doctor now back in the US desert again walking into this diner? and what has Clara and Me being doing in the interim? Did the Doctor just return to the scene of the crime, so to speak – where he last remembers waking up after his Clara story ends, to put the final pieces of the story together in his mind?

    — And the most strange thing of all: What is a diner doing in the middle of the desert, not near any roads or houses or shops or anything? … and why would the Doctor, of all people, walk into it thinking everything is normal? Wouldn’t he think “what’s this ruddy great big diner doing in the middle of the rocks and sand not near any roads, all shiny new with neon lights and a perky British gal behind the counter”? … it seems like he walks in like everything is normal and sits down to tell a story and play his guitar.

    4. How does Clara know to chameleon the ClaraTardis into that particular diner? She wasn’t there with Amy and Rory and River was she? Even if we assume a Claricle was there to save the Doctor once upon a time, that is not this Clara, with this Clara’s memories. How did she know to choose that tardis disguise? … perhaps more importantly, WHY did she choose that disguise?

    5. This has been bugging me since last week also: If Rassilon and the high council set a trap for the Doctor, which teleported him into his nefariously modified confession dial, I presume that part of this deal involved Me handing this dial, now containing the Doctor, back to the Time Lords. So, whether this is the case or not, why is it that the dial ends up being out in the dry lands of Gallifrey when the Doctor exits it? … why there? Why isn’t it being held in some secure place near the high council? It’s as if the plan was for Me to hand the dial to the Time Lords, the Doctor to reasonably quickly confess, and to exit under guard or something, but over billions of years the high council got frustrated that the Doctor was taking so long that they just chucked the thing out in the desert out of desperation. Seems odd.

    6. Finally, Snake motif: I note, for whatever it is worth, that the seal of Rassilon’s looks a lot like 2 snakes intertwined around each other.

    #48939
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @ozitenor

    4. How does Clara know to chameleon the ClaraTardis into that particular diner? She wasn’t there with Amy and Rory and River was she? Even if we assume a Claricle was there to save the Doctor once upon a time, that is not this Clara, with this Clara’s memories. How did she know to choose that tardis disguise? … perhaps more importantly, WHY did she choose that disguise?

    To turn it around, perhaps her tardis wasn’t specifically disguised as that diner- it’s just a disguise that suited the environment (sort of anyway), but rather that the diner that Amy et al went into was actually Clara’s tardis. Perhaps Clara poking around in the Doctor’s history- like Ten went back to see Rose before they’d met? I quite like that idea, since it adds a bit more symmetry to the situation.

    why is it that the dial ends up being out in the dry lands of Gallifrey when the Doctor exits it?

    Seems there’s fear of the Doctor, so they might have preferred him to arrive some distance away and get some warning, particularly as it was taking so long. The wraiths set off quite an alarm when he arrived, so his arrival wasn’t going to go unnoticed.

    #48940
    CountScarlioni @countscarlioni

    After two watches and reflecting on the series, which I think was been spectacular and brave, what’s most striking to me at this point is the directness. In S8 and S9,  Clara became increasingly like the Doctor, until at the end of Hell Bent she’s off exploring all of time and space with her companion/fellow traveller (?) with a Type 40 Tardis stolen from Gallifrey. She may not be the Impossible Girl of S7 but she’s an Impossible Girl of a different kind. In S9, we see the Doctor increasingly willing to bend or breae whatever rules there are to protect or save Clara and also to put himself through surely (?) the most extreme situation he’s ever been in, 4.5 Billion years in the confession dial, to do so.  Both of these threads come together in what seem to me an amazing last ten minutes of the episode.

    @sirclockface   Thanks so much for posting the image with the quotation; that’s lovely.

    @tardigrade   Regardless, my issue was more with continuity- in “Utopia” in S3 the Doctor and Martha travel to the end of the universe in the year 100 trillion. So 5 billion years from now isn’t remotely close to the end of time. I don’t have even any wildly desperate hand-waving, speculative tries to answer that. Though based on a second watch, when the Doctor travels to meet Me, he does not say how much farther forward in time he’s travelled (or did I miss it?).

    @puroandson   I can’t comprehend such huge numbers I start getting wonky at about 20!

    @serahni  One thing I’m confused about; why did they both say Missy brought them together?  I’m a bit lost about that bit.  Missy gave Clara the Doctor’s phone number, she was the woman in the shop referred to in The Bells of St.John. Clara then called the Tardis believing she had been given the number for a computer help line.

    #48941
    Serahni @serahni

    @countscarlioni  Thanks for that, I figured it out when my brain started working.  It’s those bootstrap paradoxes at work, I keep forgetting that the first “Claras” we met were considered echoes by the narrative and not Clara Prime!

    #48942
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @countscarlioni

    I don’t have even any wildly desperate hand-waving, speculative tries to answer that. Though based on a second watch, when the Doctor travels to meet Me, he does not say how much farther forward in time he’s travelled (or did I miss it?).

    No- it’s not clear, but the TL general said “Gallifrey is currently positioned at the extreme end of the time continuum, for its own protection. We’re at the end of the universe, give or take a star system.” So I don’t think he could have travelled on a whole lot further.

    My only thought as to what happened (other than a glaring continuity snafu) I gave above somewhere (i.e. the Doc/Clara did actually manage to screw up the universe).

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