Hell Bent

Home Forums Episodes The Twelfth Doctor Hell Bent

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  • #48998
    Rob @rob

    With Clara now a hole in the Doctor’s memory it becomes even less bonkers to hypothesise that the now invisible Clara wrote on the chalkboard in Listen, maybe, possibly, oh ok still bonkers

    #48999
    lisa @lisa

    1 more thought.  I think the Doctor also knew he had to bring Clara back to heal/fix himself.

    What if he  thought Galifrey was on the other side of the crystal wall? Not the Tardis? He

    seemed to suggest that when he spoke to Rassilon?  Maybe? Not totally sure. But that implies

    to me that he knew even when inside the Dial trap that if he got out he could use the TL’s  in

    dealing with some Clara  business.  He completely played the TL’s to get to her by manipulating

    their  ‘hybrid’  weakness.    I could see looking back on season 9 that his body language and  even

    a few comments were thrown out  hinting at that.

    He totally remembers her.

    In so far as their mindsets at least now they are both in a healthier place.

     

    #49000
    Anonymous @

    @lisa

    I think that’s a really compelling argument. From a more meta-reading PoV, why bother scripting “human-compatible” along with the human-time Lord hybrid theory unless it’s relevant?

    It makes a lot of sense too that the Doctor would be able to know (with his TL mind) so much about Clara and believe (from his human side) that he should be able to intuit her identity when he meets her and yet actually feel nothing when he does. His human side believes that’s what his human side would do, but that’s the side where there’s a whopping great hole that his TL side can’t fill.

    When diner Clara mentioned the Tardis… I thought this might be a tell. The Doctor was using vague, interpretive descriptions (e.g. “space Glasgow”) so that diner Clara could follow the story. We never heard him mention the Tardis and it seems unlikely he would have gotten that specific, so I think he twigs there and then that he’s found Clara, hence he is not surprised when she says she knows what he told her in the Cloister. But while the human side of him can grasp the Clara-shaped hole — the story –,  he can’t emotional react to the actual Clara because she isn’t there in memory.

    #49003
    lisa @lisa

    @Morpho

    Oh yes!  Those are great remarks  M.

     

    He had to deal at some point  with the extreme emotions, The aches and

    pains from the moods and thoughts of Clara ‘always in his head’. So in the

    end he deleted  all that.   Chose his TL nature.    He has had to make that

    choice before.  With Rose and with the nurse in ‘Family of Blood’.

    it’s  a sad choice every time.

     

    #49004
    Anonymous @

    @lisa

    It is quite sad, and all the more poignant for being more than just a manipulation of the viewer’s heartstrings to generate unearned pathos for the departure of a companion. This is, after all, a devious plot by Missy to break the Doctor, and one that worked out, from her point of view, quite spectacularly. He went proper bonkers, I think. Totally lost the plot. And now he’s a distracted wanderer, looking for something that, even when it’s under his nose, can’t release him from his agitation.

    #49010
    ichabod @ichabod

    @mudlark  This: . . .  all the oblique and coded references in their conversation and their body language left me with a strong feeling, if not certainty, that the Doctor and Clara had reached a mutual, if unspoken understanding. When they parted he knew perfectly well who she was, even though she was no longer ‘in his mind’ and his memories of her in his past were more like a story told, and she knew that he knew; and they were content in that knowledge. So he reads her last message to him on the chalk board, picks up his ‘doctorish’ coat, and is ready to embark on the next phase of his life.

    @pedant  Or this:. . .  he recognises that she existed because of the hole left by her. There is a person-shaped void in his memory. He sees the absence, but cannot recall the exact person who filled. All he has is a song, as Clara hinted at the end – she is a song call Clara, so she is still a story, in the end. And I’m pretty sure that’s the idea she seeded in the Matrix. They had become a gestalt entity. Both knew what was coming, even if the details weren’t yet clear, and she made sure he wasn’t left totally bereft, a last act of devotion.

    These ideas make me happy (without in any way tainting all the sadness).  On the other hand, there’s a clip of Moffat in which he says something like, “I’m much more direct in my thinking than people realize [so my reasoning about these stories is simpler than the ideas that the fans come up with].”  He’s also supposed to have said someplace that he works to make every DW episode understandable to his own kids (early teens I think), and feel sure that that effort, at least, is made in good faith.

    I would love to see SM write a book about his years of experience running and writing DW after he turns over the job to someone else.  It would be a huge, amazing, joke if it were to turn out that he was writing pretty straightforward stuff all along, but between the subtleties of performance and the chaotic speculations of the fans, a whole magnificent (and largely imaginary) palace of palaces has arisen on basically simple narrative frameworks  provided by him and his writers.

    But Moffat lies . . .

    @tommo  raid the forums for ideas? why the hell not?

    Better yet — have ideas run past this forum (incognito, of course) for one among several types of audience reaction — and for people to poke holes in.  Not that they’d really do that.  Their job is tough enough as it is.

    @nerys  (Of Ashildr remembering Raven events)  he probably wrote it down into a beautiful story, and she remembers the pain and beauty of it because she captured that in her story. Kind of like the Doctor transposing Clara into a lovely melody.

    Even though Ashildr may have given up writing her journals over the course of time (how the hell could she carry that huge library around with her?!), she might well revert to recording events for the ending of this story of Clara and the Doctor, in which she herself was so instrumental.

    And thanks, wiping the Doctor’s memory (or seeming to, or only doing it partially) seemed like the best way out from a while back.  In any event, he gets the song; she goes on to shape the legend of ThelmAshildr and Clara-louise — intergalactic folklore . . .

    @axelpond  So, stories are forgotten memories. Yes? And we are all stories in the end, just make it a good one, ey? Is the Doctor telling us that we all will be forgotten?

    Yes; and we will.  Our own planet keeps yielding up traces of entire human cultures that have been turned into stories and/or forgotten (see the 20th c archaeological discovery of Old Europe in Bulgaria etc., or the massive stone structures in Turkey with animals carved on them).  It’s only in our own visions of ourselves that we are more than mayflies.  (Except that we possibly/probably are more, if there’s a conscious existence after death.)

    @bluesqueakpip  #48989  this post is, IMO, absolutely right on.  When your dad says, “I love you and I promise I won’t let anything happen to you”, that’s a) a lie — he can’t deliver on the promise, and b) if he *could* do that he would be doing you the greatest injury — stopping you from finding the experiences you need to find to continue maturing as an autonomous individual — a young adult, as it were.  But very, very old . . .

    @avaris  There is a long pause before the line of “better than a coin toss”. This is the point the Doctor decides to erase his memory of Clara. The Doctor can simply hold it backwards to use the neuron block on himself or change to human non-compatible (the doctor can think of something clever.).

    That was going to be my next question to ponder — if he *does* plan the memory wipe, at what point does he choose wiping his own memory (fully or partially) instead of hers?  I like your answer: it’s the “last resort” that his brilliant brain can come up with, and he launches into it in typical Doctor-fashion — no whining, no flinching, just get on with it.  Great take on the positive outcomes of Clara’s raven-death, too — wow.  So many really smart and thoughtful people on this forum — it’s a privilege to know yez.

    @morpho  My feeling was that the Doctor knew Clara would be listening in on his conversation with Me as well. The last test in How to Be a Doctor?

    and

    @lisa  I totally believe the Doctor set this up for it to shake out this way. Really do!  Now they both can continue on. He doesnt feel the ‘obsession’ any more. He purged himself of that part. And Clara and Me as Thelma and Louise driving over cliffs! Me gets the adrenaline rush thing from the Mire and Clara came out of the Doctors time stream tainted with Doctor.  She became like him. Including that craving for adventures. IMHO that’s why ‘runners’ run.  So glad that at the end Clara wrote on the chalkboard (SM added) the message – ‘RUN you clever boy’ AND ‘ be the DOCTOR’ .  Yes! He totally remembers her.

    From that angle, choosing his own “amnesia” via Clara’s use of the blocker echoes what he did (or claimed to do) in his confrontation with Davros — suss out the lay of the land and outplay others by using their strengths to move them where he needs them to go.  In this case, he gets an intolerable situation resolved so he can walk — not run — away from it without leaving wreckage behind for others to clean up (Ashildr, after all, has places to go now, “people” to see).  The solution is for him to voluntarily abolish his own powerful addiction — to the company of his beloved other half, his space-child, his Clara.  Together, they sever their “hybrid” bond.

    @bluesqueakpip  On the other hand, #48995, (the Doctor does *not* engineer this outcome but is drawn into it as the upshot of his own arrogance) makes just as perfect, satisfying sense to me as the more elaborate “he set it up himself” or “they both worked it out through their mutual understanding” scenarios.

    Brilliant (with some dodgy, blurry bits); just brilliant.  Either way, I’ll take it.

    #49011
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @pedant    Right, I had forgotten that line. I should get a chance to rewatch later today and it will all become more fixed in my mind. But in any case, it’s still not complicated, which was my point in that post. People (in other places) seem to find it remarkably difficult to follow, which it has sometimes been, but I really didn’t think that most of this one was!

    That said, there have been some good points raised here about the timeline at the very end, when the TARDIS was moved, why the café, etc. I’ll be thinking about those while watching.

    @juniperfish    You made a fabulous post on the G talking about companions and Moffat’s approach to time. I wish you’d repost that here because it was really well said.

    @tardigrade     It occurred to me that if he’s being less than completely honest, it could be that he’s faking memory loss. After all, Clara’s told him that she “reversed the polarity” on the neural block – let’s be honest – that means she put the batteries in backwards. In my experience that means a gadget just doesn’t work 🙂. Spoilsport!  🙂

    @bluesqueakpip    Your ongoing posts have been lovely. I fully agree with your comedy/tragedy interpretation of events, and Clara’s “regeneration” into a human Time Lord. I wonder whether knowing that she has, finally, faced the Raven, and her fate is clear to her, she will enjoy her final travels with Me with more inner serenity than she has been able to feel until now.

    #49012
    lisa @lisa

    @Morpho

    Exactly.   This was collusion between Missy and Rassilon!  I’m optimistic

    that  story arc  continues.   All the more reason to delete  his feelings

    about Clara since that seemed to be rolling up into a liability I imagine in his view?

    I understand that now.    1 reason why we keep seeing a chess game at least

    once each season. To support the fact of this gamesmanship.   He couldn’t let Missy

    continue to use Clara as a pawn obviously.

    #49013
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @mudlark @ichabod    I think that the Doctor, by the very end, has realized that the woman in the diner was Clara. I don’t think that he remembers her, emotionally, any more than he had all along, but he has deduced, in his analytical way, that she fits the Clara-shaped hole in his memories. The painting on the TARDIS would have sealed the deal, I think. Perhaps there is something in the back of his subconscious mind prompting him to put on the “doctory” velvet coat that Clara loved, without him realizing it. I like that idea.

    It’s even possible that the Doctor, in telling his story, remembered the feelings he had about Clara, as something heard in a story, without understanding them intuitively or feeling them anymore. A dear friend of mine recently suffered a breakdown, prompted by a proliferation of painful events in her life, and spent some time on a psych ward. While there, she firmly believed that she was the victim of a huge conspiracy to keep her incarcerated as a terrorist threat, and that the patients and staff were all actors, the facility designed to torment her in various ways. She was convinced of this. Now, having come out the other side, as it were, she can remember believing it, and even how frightening it was. But she cannot understand how she could have believed it, why she behaved in this irrational way. The Doctor’s memories of Clara could be a bit like that, like the memory of a psychosis that has been treated and is now better.

    I don’t think that Gallifrey has experienced 4 billion years. I think that it has somehow been moved along the time continuum, in much the same way that the Doctor has previously travelled to the end of time in the TARDIS, and is now hidden there. Post Time War, but not that far post.  🙂

    @mudlark   I too had the thought that the TARDIS might somehow have chosen the diner disguise itself, out of some sort of knowledge of the Doctor. I hadn’t thought of the Doctor’s TARDIS communicating that knowledge, but it’s a great idea!

    #49014
    Whisht @whisht

    so, have come the long way around by reading all the comments.

    wow.

    So, nothing much to add except a couple of things.

    I think I have similar reactions to Hell Bent as @tardigrade – for me I liked the episode (acting is great etc), I ‘enjoyed’ it, but I didn’t find it ‘satisfying’.
    Clara had died. Now Clara gets to live.
    “Having your cake and eating it” sprang to mind.

    However, I’ve now read comments here and especially @bluesqueakpip ‘s recent posts and I think in a few days when I get chance, I’ll re-watch with all your thoughts/ reasonings in mind to see if I appreciate it better!

    What else…. Clara becomes a story. Really we should have seen this coming!

    Tardis Type 40 (chosen so Clara could pilot it? Sentimentality by the Doctor?) and its chameleon circuit. I once had a bonkers theory that I’ve managed to find again (thanks google).

    But please. I do not want to read “wiggle” and “Clara” in the same sentence again.

    Its… erm… distracting.

    ;¬)

    #49015
    lisa @lisa

    @whisht

     

    I like your idea about the Tardis settings  very much!!  I  thought maybe

    Clara chose that place for the Doctor since he had spent time previously

    with his ‘Earth’ family in it  so therefore it might give to him some subliminal

    comfort?   Your take of morphing into a relatable concept is terrific!

     

    #49016
    Mirime @mirime

    If I were going to guess, I’d say that Moffat was poking a bit with the half-human reference.

    @arbutus oh yes, but it just reminded me of Osgood and her insistence that it didn’t matter if she was human or Zygon, she was just Osgood.

     I do think he should not have made an enemy of Rassilon.

    @catladymeow Apart from any horrors he was responsible for in the time war, Rassilon was responsible for driving the Doctor’s childhood best friend mad and his actions led to Clara’s death. I don’t think any other outcome was possible.

    #49017

    @bluesqueakpip

    Ah. So the message you want Moffat to send to millions of small viewers is to not aspire?

    That is a message that exists only in your imagination. There is a world of a difference between “bad luck” and “an accident waiting to happen”. Believing your are something you are not does not make it so and creates all-too-foreseeable dangers.

    ‘Be aware of your limitations, because that’s where real creativity starts’ is a much more pertinent and altogether more interesting lesson (and a very writerly one) – and now Clara has an ultra-limitation that could make her really creative. The raven will catch up with her eventually, but I suspect she will have a lot of fun dodging it.

    And who nose… maybe the new admin on Gallifrey will be sufficiently impressed to work some Time Lord mojo… Who. Nose.

    @mudlark @ichabod @lisa

     all the oblique and coded references in their conversation and their body language left me with a strong feeling, if not certainty, that the Doctor and Clara had reached a mutual, if unspoken understanding. When they parted he knew perfectly well who she was,

    I find this baffling. Everything in the last few minutes shows Clara’s absolutely desolation and heartache as she gets confirmation that the plan had worked, if not as intended then as expected (the purpose of the diner scenario being to run that test). The close-up acting (sorry, don’t know the technical term) by Jenna was stunning and screamed this, and it was slammed home like a an express train hitting the buffers as she turned away, unable to face him lest he work it out.

    And then she gave what comfort she could. Because, basically, Clara rocks.

    @arbutus

    the timeline at the very end, when the TARDIS was moved, why the café, etc

    While the Doc was conked out:
    – nip to London, materialise around the Tardis (we know it was carried to Nevada, ‘cos Rigsy’s graffiti tribute);
    – pop in and write on the blackboard;
    – nip to Nevada, leave him in the care of a kindly local and arrange for him to be dropped off at the diner;
    – Run the diner scenario to confirm that the plan has worked;
    – Dematerialise, leaving Old Bluey behind (if the Doc did work it out, it was then and no earlier);
    – Fly away to live out the rest of her remaining heartbeat.

    @whisht

    wiggle

    I’m fairly sure the proper word is “wriggle”, but…yeah.

    #49019
    lisa @lisa

    @mirime

    The Zygon Osgoods were a little bit different for me.  I saw them as a total blending

    if you will of the Human Osgood.   The Doctor is the Doctor and can’t assimilate Clara.

    #49020
    midnyt @midnyt

    wow, this board is moving fast!

    @arbutus – I would have preferred she stayed dead, however I would have been ok with her being the one with the memory wipe. Or even BOTH her and the doctor being wiped. I found her death in Face the Raven quite moving. And for a character that I really couldn’t care less what happens to, that’s saying a lot. That’s why I felt Hell Bent diminished that. It really elevated her for me, and then they went and ruined it. Maybe it’s the whole last memory thing, but if the last memory of Clara was “Face the Raven”, that’s a lot stronger than “Hell Bent” for me.

    @puroandson – Actually, I loved the whole episode with the exception that the Doctor was wiped and Clara wasn’t. I even found the end scene with Ashildr and Clara to be cute. However I would gladly give that scene up to fix the memory thing. I do agree that Clara has been better this season than she’s ever been. I can’t comment on her as an actress as Doctor Who is the only thing I’ve seen her in, although I will say they didn’t give her a lot to work with early on.
    I haven’t been online for a while. I really enjoyed Heaven Sent. I thought Capaldi really shined there. I think Heaven Sent and Hell Bent have probably been a couple of the best eps for Capaldi’s Doctor. I’m really excited for the Christmas Special. It looks like so much fun!

    @ichabod mentioned – “On the other hand, there’s a clip of Moffat in which he says something like, “I’m much more direct in my thinking than people realize [so my reasoning about these stories is simpler than the ideas that the fans come up with].” I hear Moffat’s voice in my head saying things like – “Well we already did that to Donna, I can’t do that again.” or “Wouldn’t it be a twist if we wiped the Doctor’s memory instead”. Like these are just ideas that popped into his head. Because for all the great ideas Moffat has had, he has also had his fair share of running with “what if’s”. And this makes me more convinced that Moffat has left a foot in the door or some tape over the door jamb to ensure that there’s always a way back in.

    #49021
    Anonymous @

    @thebrainofmoffat

    3) the Time Lords are actively hunting her to ensure the absence of a paradox on the trap street. As you might be able to tell from my italicization, I really like the prospect of the third. However, any of the above three options would make for an excellent episode and a true logical resolution to the problem of Clara’s death created in Hell Bent.

    OK, you did say “what say you all?”

    I like the idea that they might be hunting her -Rassilon is incredibly peeved with the Doctor. How would they find her? I suppose it’s not impossible but I think they have other, better things to do. But the idea of an exiled resurrected Rassilon reminds me of an incredibly mad Master – we have one of those already  but two? That would be bad indeed.

    However, “a true logical resolution to the problem of Clara’s death” is not something I’d buy simply because, well, we already have a true and logical resolution:  she’s out and about with all memories intact finally able to step (almost) into the Doctor’s shoes. Her companion won’t run off, they have an OK knowledge of the Tardis and the hybrid is released from torment and from duty of care. I think it’s logical already and whilst Clara and her mate may sign up for radio plays I don’t think we’ll see her or Ashildr again -maybe Ashildr will reappear briefly but then the question will dangle in our heads where is Clara?

    That chapter is now over. Just as Rory and Amy ‘s chapter is over.

    #49023
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @puroandson

    That chapter is now over.

    Agree 100%

    btw, how is life in Brisbane? My memories are of stinking, sultry, 30 degree heat in December with far worse to follow. Or am I being unfair?

    #49024
    Mirime @mirime

    @thebrainofmoffat or 4th possibility, Clara’s Tardis takes her back to Gallifray at a time it decides is appropriate for her to face the Raven.

    #49025
    Anonymous @

    dear @midnyt

    That’s why I felt Hell Bent diminished that. It really elevated her for me, and then they went and ruined it.

    I think a few people are really determined to view Clara’s death as essential? Why? I’m only 14 but I would like some reasoning as to why you think she absolutely had to stay dead.

    @bluesqueakpip has made some really strong arguments about classical literature and the concept of comedy and tragedy -on top of that she has made some strong arguments about why Claras death could easily be the biggest mistake ever. I mean ever. Here she is, doing everything she can to be the Doctor, she’s helped a friend and she has been told she’s got the absolute protection of the Mayor ‘me’ and then she dies anyway? No, you see that cannot be right, in my opinion because as Mum explained it, if in dying, it’s like saying “no, you can’t be the Doctor”. It’s like saying “you women have no hope but to try and fail and even if you’re a hero you still have to die” when the writer now is saying “no, you get a second chance and it is the Hybrid who is dying”

    The Doctor’s memories are failing for Clara and that is very sad for her: also she said “I don’t want this Doctor. I’m ready to die. This is my time. ” but she was given a peek into a possible future for her where, free from the Doctor, she could continue to be like him: wanting all those adventures and now they are there for her to have with her bessy mate! And she always liked Ashildr when they first met so I think her death would have been a poorer ending.

    It would have lessened her enormous contribution: she’s not an ordinary companion and never has been so I see that she needs an extraordinary existence to culminate this story. And why, anyway, does she have to die again!! She died as a governess, she died as Oswin and to die at the hands of the TLs would have made the Doctor a War Doctor all over again -and this is the really clever bit, she saved him by staying alive. She was the one, who said “don’t kill that man. Be a doctor not a warrior. Run and be happy. Be kind. Don’t be cruel.” Also so did Ohila of Karn. she said “are you being a coward?” No, in having his memory wiped, he wasn’t choosing the cowardly option but the strong person one.

    The hybrid died but Clara didn’t -she’s suspended between heart beats and this is doctor who after all -there are second chances and there should be in my opinion.

    (Mother of Son just re-checking some of those ideas there and toning down his opinions which are strong midnyt -please forgive him there, he’s getting quite excited!)

    But it’s great to see you back on the Forum theorising way and putting forward your ideas and thoughts as always. As Son of Puro says: ” totally awesome ”

    Puro and Son

    #49026
    CountScarlioni @countscarlioni

    @geoffers    Thanks! Doctor’s trip to Ashildr/Me. he specifically says that it’s the last few hours of the universe, and that the time lords won’t be able to track him there. he also says to ashildr/me “go to hell, by my calculations you’ve got about five minutes…”  I’d wondered if there was a time stated in terms of how long in the future the Doctor had to travel to find Me at the end of time. But @tardigrade pointed out  the TL general said “Gallifrey is currently positioned at the extreme end of the time continuum, for its own protection. We’re at the end of the universe, give or take a star system.” So I don’t think he could have travelled on a whole lot further. 

    #49027
    Anonymous @

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    Hello there over!  Yoo-hoo. It is. Disgusting (the heat). The aircon was repaired last week  -so covered with mould from the humidity that they had to pull it apart for a clean out. Still, chucking an occasional bucket of iced water over my head is causing the family to laugh and take random pictures. The wood floors don’t mind the occasional clean!

    Malls, however, must be avoided as they are full of people trying to run from said heat.

    So, it’s time for telly and lots of icecream and lemonade. Basically sitting in a kiddies pool of ice and water is another plan whilst holding a wine cooler – till about April.

    Why do people live in Brisbane? Habit I think! That’s why I live here at any rate.

    Ooh, off topic: in Brisbane one is Hell Bent. The Son and I are revealed as the hybrid….again flailing about to remain on topic.   🙂

    Cheers (I wonder what it’s like to open your door and see snow? I don’t remember that anymore!)

    #49028
    ichabod @ichabod

    @pedant  Everything in the last few minutes shows Clara’s absolutely desolation and heartache as she gets confirmation that the plan had worked, if not as intended then as expected (the purpose of the diner scenario being to run that test). The close-up acting (sorry, don’t know the technical term) by Jenna was stunning and screamed this, and it was slammed home like a an express train hitting the buffers as she turned away, unable to face him lest he work it out.  And then she gave what comfort she could. Because, basically, Clara rocks.

    This works too — beautifully.  It was my first reaction and ties in with Moffat’s claim to be writing more plots and  motivations than ones the more imaginative fans think up.  The emotional pay-off of this approach is massive, as you say.  But when you’ve absorbed all of that that you can, there are these other possibilities, which can also work (the Doctor planned the whole thing or most of it, he and Clara worked it up between them, etc.) because DW fans tend to be very smart and creative with these stories, and the writing under Moffat’s leadership, plus the splendid acting teams’ talents, open up the stories to fantastic creativity in fans and others.

    @puroandson  . . . we already have a true and logical resolution: she’s out and about with all memories intact finally able to step (almost) into the Doctor’s shoes. Her companion won’t run off, they have an OK knowledge of the Tardis and the hybrid is released from torment and from duty of care. I think it’s logical already and whilst Clara and her mate may sign up for radio plays I don’t think we’ll see her or Ashildr again -maybe Ashildr will reappear briefly but then the question will dangle in our heads where is Clara? That chapter is now over. Just as Rory and Amy ‘s chapter is over.

    I really like the idea of the Doctor freed to move on, with possible call-backs in the future to S8-S9 if there’s an irresistably good place for that to happen.

    Heaven Sent/Hell Bent is turning out, the more we talk about it, to be a deeply satisfying ending for this TARDIS team, for me.  A large part of the satisfaction is this multiple-level interpretability.  But I like fluidity and open-endedness in fiction in general, rather than nailing everything down once and for all.  Time moves on.  There is no once and for all.

     

    #49029
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @rob

    Did you check the sign on the door as you came in? Invisible Clara wrote ‘listen’? Bonkers enough for me!

    @Morpho
    I think the main arguments against the Doctor being half human are that a) we’ve never needed it and b) it comes from that wretched Movie That We Do Not Mention. Also, I always feel faintly uncomfortable when we get a half human alien, because it always has this subtext of us humans being the greatest thing since sliced bread. We’re not: as someone said up the thread, we’re hybrids who are half good, half evil.

    So I’d go for Me having picked up a rumour based around the Eighth Doctor’s lie, rather than fact. In fact, I’d go for @arbutus‘ theory that Moffat is teasing, given that the ‘Doctor is half-human’ idea was considerably more disliked than the sonic sunglasses ever were. 🙂 However, there is indeed some reason the Doctor started hanging around Earth and humans so much – which is why he’s looking so grim when she talks about the rumours.

    a devious plot by Missy to break the Doctor, and one that worked out, from her point of view, quite spectacularly.

    As devious plots by Missy go, she couldn’t have been more honest and less devious about it. She flat-out told him what she was doing in Death in Heaven, and then gave him a further massive hint in The Witch’s Familiar. And it’s also a very ‘hybrid’ plot: Clara is the enemy inside the friend and Missy, who sent her, is the friend inside the enemy.

    That is, Clara is both very bad for the Doctor and very good for the Doctor. Very bad for him because he becomes obsessed with her, with protecting her, with keeping her alive – but very good for him because Clara saves him. Keeps him alive. Moves him away from the War Doctor, and back to being ‘The Doctor’. Every time.

    It makes you wonder what Missy meant when she said ‘I want my friend back.’ Does she want the Doctor to be more like her, so they can be friends again? (I nearly typed ‘fiends again’, which is oddly appropriate). Or does she want her friend, the Doctor, back again, instead of this PTSD afflicted war veteran who’s replaced him?

    Does she even know which one she wants? The friend inside the enemy, the enemy inside the friend.

    @ichabod

    how the hell could she carry that huge library around with her?!

    Ashildr was obviously not only an early adopter of the diary, but an early adopter of the kindle e-book. 🙂

    @pedant

    That is a message that exists only in your imagination

    They said that to Arthur C. Clarke about communications satellites. 😉 Anyway, arguments from incredulity aside, the title of the first episode in Series 9 is ‘The Magician’s Apprentice’ and then in the final episode of Series 9 we see Clara flying off in a Type 40 TARDIS (with dodgy chameleon circuit), on the run from the Time Lords, with a companion.

    The argument for ‘hubris’ seems to be based around the idea that this ‘apprentice’ thinks she can be the Doctor – and can’t be. But the whole point of an apprenticeship is that you’re ‘apprenticed’ to a trade you can do. And by the end of the series, the ‘apprentice’ is Clara Who.

    It can certainly be argued that the reason for the ‘accident waiting to happen’ is that the Doctor never really encourages Clara to think she’s in genuine danger, this-could-actually-kill-you danger. He encourages her to think that she’s completely safe – as long as she’s with him.

    You see that in Face The Raven, in fact, when he has her hanging out of the TARDIS. Or Sleep No More – which is a previous episode where Clara said ‘we’ll fix this’ and the Doctor ends up insisting that ‘we’ will sort it out. Or The Girl Who Died, when he rescues Clara from having her brains devoured and being asphyxiated in deep space (not necessarily in that order).

    The ‘fatal flaw’ doesn’t belong to Clara. Which may be the real reason the Doctor was prepared to spend 4.5 billion years getting her back.

    I agree with you entirely that the Doctor genuinely doesn’t recognise Clara – the acting on both sides suggested that to me, as well.

    #49030
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip

    You might be right, but atm not totally agreeing with that prognosis. When clever people are involved, there’s not necessarily a contradiction between devious and honest.

    Probably similar to you, I was well against the humanisation of the Doctor in the TV Movie. But, let’s be honest, that process began decades before, and one has to make a final judgement on whether it’s canon or not. Moffat made that judgement two years ago. Now the only question is: how to make it fit. It doesn’t seem like the end of the world to me if the Doctor’s mother was human; in fact, to be honest, such details strike me as inherently tedious. But if someone can make a fist of dealing with it, I’m pretty sure Moffat can.

    #49031
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @Morpho

    There is no question that the Doctor said his mother was human. The question is whether he was telling the truth when he said it. 🙂

    Rule One: the Doctor lies.

    And frankly, if the Time Lords (especially Rassillon) knew that the Doctor had a human mother, why were they even asking him who the hybrid was? Given their well established status as a bunch of racist gits, they’d have assumed the Doctor to be the hybrid straight off.

    #49032
    ichabod @ichabod

    @puroandson  Son of puro — I thought, after Heaven Sent, that the most satisfying end for Clara would be the raven death (or something like it).  But I’ve changed my mind about that, and I agree, it’s better in emotional terms for the viewers and in story terms for the characters for her to “graduate” to a “rest-of-your-life” full of heroic and exhilarating adventure — she turns true to her original nature, and “Impossible Woman” with Time Lord goals but a human spirit, living whatever time she has between one heartbeat and the final one ripped from her by the Raven, who knows when!  (We’re all pretty much in that boat anyway just living normal lives, so it’s not a punishment, just life.)  I also like that she gets to share it with Ashildr, who managed pretty well with an open ended future but stuck on Earth.  She also deserves release onto a wider stage to explore.  I’d send snow if I could, but you know how it is . . .

    I’m about to do my first re-watch (I caught the show Sat. night on tv in my hotel in Oregon — full of ads, of course), to see what I can see and test some of these theories about who knew what when etc. and what everybody’s intentions were.  Wonder how people will come to view these issues after re-watching over time.  The Xmas thing doesn’t play into it, since it’s described as happening back when River was still alive.

    #49034
    Anonymous @

    @morpho

    When clever people are involved, there’s not necessarily a contradiction between devious and honest.

    I know many clever people and they can tell the difference between devious behaviour and honesty. Its sort of like saying “clever people are more likely to just be devious” and I don’t think that’s right. Golly, that’s pretty pessimistic? 🙂

    Could we say that sociopaths are more likely to confuse the devious and the honest? Rather than just “clever people”

    Son of Puro and Puro

    #49035
    ichabod @ichabod

    @bluesqueakpip  As devious plots by Missy go, she couldn’t have been more honest and less devious about it. She flat-out told him what she was doing in Death in Heaven, and then gave him a further massive hint in The Witch’s Familiar. And it’s also a very ‘hybrid’ plot: Clara is the enemy inside the friend and Missy, who sent her, is the friend inside the enemy.

    Missy is that, isn’t she?  Interesting, how that worked.  Her purpose was fairly simple: to make huge trouble for him, driving him away from his involvement with humans and bring him to his oldest friend for help.  Only her plans are always wacky even when they work (part way at least).  Everything she does is too narrowly conceived because her egomania blinds her to the impact of others’s actions and perceptions on events, so it inevitably goes awry, or overshoots the mark and turns into something else.

    So what she actually served the Doctor (through Clara’s company) was a look at madness and obsession from *the inside*.  In S8, it’s the stormy and terrifying mid-life crisis that brings him clarity about his regenerated self.  In S9 he lives through the *opposite* of deep and desolate loneliness: traveling with his soul-mate as companion.  It’s the flirty romance of SmithDoc pushed to an extreme of closeness.  We find that the such a depth of connection and caring can so fully occupy and distort your life that you *must* turn away to survive (and to preserve the autonomous life of your cherished one).

    Which I doubt was Missy’s intention at all.  She’s a natural agent of chaos, which means that sometimes her worst actions lead to more good than bad results, because, well, *chaos*.  All bets are off.  And the beneficiaries of Missy’s campaign to nab the Doctor for herself are many, but I don’t see Missy herself as one of them.  He’s not going looking for her to tell her she was right and invite her aboard.  He’s sallying forth in his beautiful wine-colored coat to be the hero with the healing touch that he’s meant to be.

    #49037
    ichabod @ichabod

    @bluesqueakpip   Oh, and — Yes, the fatal flaw is more his than hers, as he recognizes when he talks to the chalk board:  Doctor: “What would (Clara) do?”

    Board/Clara: “The same as you.”

    Doctor: “Of course; that’s what got you killed.”

    Rory’s judgment is validated: the Doctor, fooling about saving people and showing off, brought out the latent hero in his companion, and she died because of accidental blow-back from acting like a TL when you’re a human with just one life.  Yet he’s bad at traveling alone, so — what does he need by way of companionship next time?  A sidekick?

    Let’s note, though, that in one way Clara’s trust in the Doctor was not misplaced: whatever else happened, she *did* in fact gain the opportunity for a Doctor way of life, albeit on human terms, because he would not give up exercising his duty of care, even past her actual death.  Her ambitions to become A Doctor led her through the fire, but in the end has been rewarded, not punished.  Icarus falls, and then soars again.

     

    #49038
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @rob

    Also during Rasillon’s visit to the barn he stated…..

    How many regenerations did we give you, I’ve got all day

    Strongly suggesting a more than just another full set

    Or possibly less. The terminology used at the time was giving him a new cycle of regenerations, from which you’d initially think 12. But if you remember the circumstances of his regeneration he had so much regeneration energy to spare he destroyed an attacking armada, so who knows- he could be effectively immortal (like just about everyone else now 🙂 ). He has used some energy since without regenerating, e.g. with the daleks early in the series – perhaps enough to cost him regenerations. So my considered opinion, taking all that into account, is that we can narrow down his remaining regenerations to somewhere between 1 and infinity :-).

    @morpho

    The regeneration process since the reboot has been a bit over-the-top, none more so than in Time of the Doctor. That said, in that same episode the actual physical regeneration part was pretty much instant (i liked it) and, correct me if I’m wrong, the General is the first regeneration we’ve seen since? I suspect the promise to set the regeneration effect in stone may have been broken…

    I’m not to concerned about the atypical Time of the Doctor regeneration (see previous paragraph). Ten’s was still wild- he seemed to be fighting that one (“I don’t want to go”) which might not have helped. We’ve seen River regenerate since then, which was more on the scale of the general’s, so it does seem it’s the Doctor who is unusual. The after-effects of regeneration also seem stronger on the Doctor- he can get rather confused and erratic, whereas mostly it seems the regenerated TL can get right on with things (general, River, Master, Romana back in the day).

    @ozitenor

    Note the way that the sonic glasses work, as Clara explained to Ashildr when they first met. You just think the thing you want to be done, and the glasses (or screwdriver, as the case may be) will execute a task based upon your thought. So, even if Clara described what she thought when using the glasses as “reverse the polarity” what she was thinking at the time she reprogrammed the neural block gadget was more likely “make this work on the Doctor not me”. At least, that is my wild speculation! I doubt her thought was “reverse polarity” I think that’s just the shorthand used verbally (and I suppose inaccurately) to describe what she did.

    I’m fine with that explanation- a psychic interface for the glasses. Just hate the “reverse the polarity” phrase and had to have a dig. I could just about tolerate it from the Doctor, where it would be shorthand for “I’ve done something very complicated that you wouldn’t understand that reverses the effect that this device will have”. From Clara, it’s just nonsense and a simple “I’ve changed this doodad to reverse its effects” would be more straightforward. And yes, I know it’s an old Who reference that some may see as a nod to old fans, but it’s just such twaddle I can do without it- some things are best left unexplained, rather than getting a silly one – the word “metachlorians” is coming to mind…

    @lisa

    This was collusion between Missy and Rassilon!

    They weren’t exactly on the best of terms the last time we saw them together you may recall. But both would probably do anything if it’s expedient, so that doesn’t mean they can’t have come to some arrangement.

    @arbutus

    I don’t think that Gallifrey has experienced 4 billion years. I think that it has somehow been moved along the time continuum, in much the same way that the Doctor has previously travelled to the end of time in the TARDIS, and is now hidden there. Post Time War, but not that far post. 🙂

    No- some time has past but nothing like that- Rassilon has certainly aged, or at least started off looking atypically old after regenerating.

    @whisht

    But please. I do not want to read “wiggle” and “Clara” in the same sentence again.

    Its… erm… distracting.

    There’s plenty of space in the new tardis- she could perhaps dedicate a room specifically for the purpose of wiggling. I assume that’s what those calling for her to have some wiggle room are referring to. It’s probably best you don’t think about that though @whisht … sorry, you already have, haven’t you? 🙂

    #49039
    lisa @lisa

    I’ve been wondering if Rassilon will come to Earth and start meddling around like

    Missy does?   I think it was a real mistake for the Doctor to let him leave.

    Even surprising.

     

    BTW   I don’t see why hinting that the Doctor is part human by SM is so troubling.

    I personally feel having that connection of a  hybrid  between 2 planets is a terrific idea

    and it in no way diminishes  the Doctor for me.   Who nose how it  might end up  but I

    have an open mind about it just like I’ve done about the gender switches.

    Just saying SM……….

     

    #49040
    lisa @lisa

    @tardigrade

    Don’t forget that the coordinates Missy gave the Doctor were correct in space. Just not in time.

    She didn’t lie to the Doctor about where Galifrey was except for timeframe. So how did she know?

    To me this implies collusion with the TL’s and Rassilon too.

     

    #49041
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @lisa

    Don’t forget that the coordinates Missy gave the Doctor were correct in space. Just not in time.
    She didn’t lie to the Doctor about where Galifrey was except for timeframe. So how did she know?
    To me this implies collusion with the TL’s and Rassilon too.

    Missed that, so that’s another connection. And of course the Doctor sent Missy his confession dial, and she apparently brings it back tampered with at Rassilon’s behest, so it’s hard to avoid a connection IMO.

    #49043
    Arbutus @arbutus

    Well, I’ve had my second viewing and really, that rocked. It just did.

    Watching the opening scenes with the Doctor and Clara in the diner, it occurred to me how well both actors do stillness. It’s an expressive thing for them, and can contain a wealth of emotion. This was true at the end as well, in the soft, quiet moments when Clara was essentially bidding the Doctor farewell. Throughout all the diner scenes, the Doctor had a gentleness about him that hasn’t usually been a characteristic of this incarnation. She asks him if he is from Glasgow, and he replies, apparently without irony, “Space Glasgow!” The lovely and prescient line, “Stories are where memories go when they’re forgotten.” His wistful reply to her suggestion that the stories might appear in songs- “That would be nice” and the long look she gave him before disappearing into her TARDIS… really lovely.

    The scenes in the Gallifreyan desert reminded me strongly of the opening sections of the film Paris, Texas, with the evocative desert cinematography and the long silence of the main character. The Doctor, at one with the common folk, reminded me of Eleven on Trenzalore. Did anyone notice that the Doctor, on being ordered to “lay down your weapons”, dropped his spoon to the table? 🙂

    I have lots of thoughts about Rassilon the Redeemer, Rassilon the Resurrected, which I will keep for a separate post, but I did love the camera shot of Rassilon surrounded by the thrown-down weapons of the soldiers, and facing them in a line with the Doctor at its centre. There were twelve of them.

    The Doctor eliciting truth from the general about the hybrid seemed itself a demonstration of his hybrid nature; it reminded me of his own tone way back when he chastised Journey Blue for demanding rather than asking, and also of teacher Clara’s question, “Is this really what we’ve learned?”

    Looking at the Doctor’s face as he pointed the gun at the general, I could only think, “Well, we finally got our dark Doctor.” We never really saw the War Doctor at work, only as he was at the very end of his long journey, but I’m sure that he would have had all the hardness and anger that we saw in Twelve at this moment. It was interesting to me that during their brief exchange, the general, on hearing the Doctor barking out the question, “Regeneration?”, seemed more resigned than anything. He replied with equal brevity, “Tenth.” And they wished each other luck before the Doctor shot him. Very interesting dynamic.

    There were so many good dialogues throughout: the Doctor with Clara, with Ohila, and with Me, beautifully, beautifully written and realized- “She died… it was sad. And it was beautiful. And it is over.”

    I noticed that Ohila says, when Clara asks how long the Doctor was in the confession dial, “We think four and a half billion years,” strongly suggesting that the time inside the dial was indeed subjective.

    I thought the ending was absolute perfection, as the Doctor sees the diner dematerialize around him, and his TARDIS standing there in the desert, with Clara’s face surrounded in flowers and the gentle music of Clara’s theme filling the air. The Doctor enters, backlit, and the Clara music fades as the TARDIS starts to power up, and the transitions into the Doctor’s theme, which continues as he finds Clara’s message and follows her last instruction. And Clara’s painting disintegrates as the TARDIS dematerializes. I don’t think these last few moments could have been any better!

    #49044
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @puroandson     It is a point that Clara has in fact done quite a lot of dying already!  🙂

    I liked that line of Ohila’s when she asked the Doctor if he was being cruel, or cowardly. That whole conversation was good. I think Ohila is growing into a peripheral character who can have some moral authority over the Doctor, which is a rare thing. Other than companions, I’m not sure we’ve seen anyone hold that power over him. And he came out when she called!

    Puro, if Son Of is expressing strong views in a bold manner, clearly he’s been reading this Forum and paying attention! 🙂 )

    I wonder what it’s like to open your door and see snow?   I’d say that depends on what you were planning on doing when you went to the door.  🙂 My mom, in Calgary, swears it drops a bunch every time she has plans to go out to lunch!

    #49045
    Arbutus @arbutus

    Not that I would ever have the cojones to take sides in a debate between that formidable pair, @bluesqueakpip and @pedant, but this:      the title of the first episode in Series 9 is ‘The Magician’s Apprentice’ and then in the final episode of Series 9 we see Clara flying off in a Type 40 TARDIS (with dodgy chameleon circuit), on the run from the Time Lords, with a companion     is really clever.

    @Morpho      Moffat made that judgement two years ago.   In what way? Can you elaborate?

    #49046
    CountScarlioni @countscarlioni

    @mudlark   By the time he had told his story and their conversation in the diner ended, he would, as I have said before, have to have been extraordinarily slow on the up-take not to have realised who it was he had been talking to, after the breadcrumb trail left by Clara, and all the hints and clues she had dropped.

    Would it matter if he’d not taken the hints? Once the Doctor, assuming he truly did not remember Clara in the diner scene, got back into his own Tardis, would he not immediately search the Tardis’s data banks for “Clara” and recover at least some of the lost memories? For him, it’s surely only a temporary loss of some memories. Have I missed something? Is there something extra clever about the neural block?

    #49047
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @countscarlioni

    Would it matter if he’d not taken the hints? Once the Doctor, assuming he truly did not remember Clara in the diner scene, got back into his own Tardis, would he not immediately search the Tardis’s data banks for “Clara” and recover at least some of the lost memories? For him, it’s surely only a temporary loss of some memories. Have I missed something? Is there something extra clever about the neural block?

    “Me” had access to a key to the Doctor’s tardis last time we saw it on Trap Street and it seems like his obsolete tardis wasn’t wanted by the TLs. So Me/Clara could possibly have gone in there and wiped the tardis’ records of Clara. He’d surely have enough clues to find out a lot more though if he wanted to. For me, it’s the emotional connection that was the more important thing that’s been weakened by the wipe, more than the actual memories of what happened, which do seem to be there, even if not in their original form, so even if he does fill in the gaps over time, it seems he’ll be able to live with those memories now. Donna’s wipe was much more complete- not just the memories of the Doctor, but whole swathes of her autobiographical memory too- a much more complete job. Possibly that’s what would have awaited Clara too if she was the one wiped?

    #49048
    Notime @notime

    @lisa

    Conspiracy theory after watching HB tonight
    The Doctor left the sonic glasses on the console on purpose knowing Clara
    would watch on the screen, He also left the mind wiper there. He set it up?
    He figured out that he had to part from Clara. So was he making it easier for
    her? Seems to me that he really didn’t loose a lot of his memory. I really get
    that feeling. The Doctor lies. Again.

     

    I had had the same thoughts as well.

    For me this has been the best season yet.  As usual, I am left with many questions after watching each week.  This time I am left to wonder how it could be possible the Doctor didn’t figure out who he was talking to in the diner when it vanished the way it did.  The wheezing sound should be quite familiar by now…

    Then to see his Tardis with Clara’s face painted on the side should have put to rest any doubt he may have had about her identity.

    I second the notion that the Doctor remembers more than he is letting on.  Must always remember the number one rule.  🙂

     

     

    #49049
    ichabod @ichabod

    @arbutus  Did anyone notice that the Doctor, on being ordered to “lay down your weapons”, dropped his spoon to the table?

    Yes!  Loved it, and a call back to what he’s come to get paid for by the instigators of the Dial ordeal: eating soup in the castle, asking himself if he’ll have to stay there . . . forever?  And the spoon slips out of his hand.

    “Well, we finally got our dark Doctor.” We never really saw the War Doctor at work . . . It was interesting to me that during their brief exchange, the general, on hearing the Doctor barking out the question, “Regeneration?”, seemed more resigned than anything. He replied with equal brevity, “Tenth.” And they wished each other luck before the Doctor shot him. Very interesting dynamic.

    To say the least . . . definitely warrior to warrior: “You lose, you pay — try and do better next time.”  Whereas Rassilon is hustled off in his old body.  I wish the Doctor had wiped the Confession Dial and sent that with the old bastard.

    when Clara asks how long the Doctor was in the confession dial, “We think four and a half billion years,” strongly suggesting that the time inside the dial was indeed subjective.

    I’m taking that as confirmation; no other answer makes any sense to me.  Which reminds me — he reads Clara’s writing, he does as he is told without comment or delay, soberly, as with founding a ritual.  If he truly does *not* remember Clara, how come there’s no surprise, no puzzlement about these messages?  He must know whose instructions those are (those of a very good teacher), and that nothing’s left but this brief coda of simple, silent obedience, for the last time.

    I agree that the final bit was perfect (and you know how skeptical I am about the whole concept of perfection . . . ).

    @tardigrade  it’s the emotional connection that was the more important thing that’s been weakened by the wipe, more than the actual memories of what happened, which do seem to be there, even if not in their original form, so even if he does fill in the gaps over time, it seems he’ll be able to live with those memories now.

    Works for me.  It’s the Clara-as-his-conscience that’s gone, along with that deep-rooted and unshakable bond he had with her because of the Impossible Girl experience.  If Clara has graduated into autonomous adulthood well prepared to lead her own life of space adventure, the Doctor has also graduated, from the School of Clara, presumably with not her voice but what he learned from his time with her (like, the addictive joys and the inevitable dangers of being obsessed with or dependent on anyone, or even losing yourself in the intricacies of your own mind) firmly integrated into his brain.  She doesn’t need a protector any more and he doesn’t need a teacher of ethics and emotional balance.

    Also @notime, that little sequence is pretty explicit as to who the waitress was, and if he hadn’t realized until the diner tardised away, surely he would have reacted strongly to suddenly *realizing* who it was.  No; I think he must have known going in.  So — is it a sad and final echo of the goodbye cafe scene at the end of DiH, with both pretending, but this time it’s a parting of his devising?  The closing stage of his duty of care, which was a thrashing mess much of the time, but which concluded with success: release for both of them.

    #49050
    Anonymous @

    @puroand son

    Son: oi!

    Nope, I disagree. Didn’t we discuss this? I don’t think the Doctor remembers her. It’s over. Also, I don’t think the thing you wrote about “wimin who die at trying to be the Dr means that Clara had to come back” is correct.

    I think that it was about her trying to be the Doctor and failing at that. And of course you’re going to fail at that Son. Why? Because you’re not a TL. I know it’s hard to accept. But it’s true. As a woman I’m not freaked by this version -it’s arrogance or hubris to assume she would succeed -there was a failure of communication. They both went too far -hence this ending. She’s a heart beat away  with some wiggle room and at some point she’ll show up and be re- placed on Trap street and live out her last moment. She’ll pay her dues and that’s OK. You may be free to have your opinion -I can live with that.

    Hubris?

    Look it up!

    Google it?

    Fine.

    #49051
    Anonymous @

    @notime

    hello and welcome to you from the friendly hybrid. Glad you loved it too -a lot of people did. We’re one of them.

    I wonder if the picture on the Tardis could be covered by the Neural Bloc containing an outwardly manifesting Neural perception filter? That way he can see Clara’s picture but not really see her? See? :)(OMNPF)

    – -eerm: trying to pick up a tiddly bit of Malcolm Tucker there -if you reset those letters you might almost get: NMFP -which is Oi Not My Flippin Problem (as I said,  a perception filter)  – –

    I dunno. But that works for me. TL tech n’ all.

    Kindest,

    PuroandSon

    #49052
    Anonymous @

    @morpho

    OK, shouty Puro is gone now. But hang on, you said this;

    Moffat made that judgement two years ago

    Wha? Huh?

    Son of the Puro (the ‘almighty’ -honestly she goes on).

    Thankyou

    #49053
    ohboyatoytruck @ohboyatoytruck

    The writing throughout the entire current series has been patchy and erratic and melodrama has replaced interesting plots with great twists. I found the climax/finale of the last series (Death in Heaven) somewhat moving though it was quite dark and grim too, but I haven’t enjoyed a single episode of the current series and the final episode was the worst. Dr Who has basically been turned into a soap opera. When the wonderfully brilliant and moving Day of the Doctor screened for the 50th anniversary it set up an expectation in viewers’ minds that Peter Capaldi’s Doctor would start the search for Gallifrey. I thought th series would be a series of attempts, some failed, some informative that would culminate in a final episode where he finally reached Gallifrey. I even thought that possibly to find Gallifrey he would have to die and regenerate so he would find it at the expense of his current incarnation. That would have been great. Instead he found it in the penultimate episode with no explanation of how Galifrey had freed itself from the frozen pocket universe where the Doctors plural had put it except for an offhand remark by Capaldi that the Timelords must have freed it themselves. How was the timelock defeated? The writers should have written a brilliant plot that explained how the Doctor found the freed Gallifrey – that would have been moving. I felt nothing when Capaldi broke through the diamond wall and found himself on his home planet. No that’s not true, I felt cheated. The wonderful set up of the Day of the Doctor was completely wasted. As for all the audience-milking melodrama surrounding Clara – I was not moved mainly because Clara cannot die – remember she’s scattered throughout the Doctor’s entire time stream – she can only disappear not die. Where has the wonderful pathos gone that accompanied the loss of Rose and Donna? Those series remain the high point for me. The character of “Me” leaves me cold and I find nothing to like about her. I feel totally ripped off and feel like Ive wasted my time even bothering to watch. And the weird looking Christmas special trailer looks no better.

    #49054
    Anonymous @

    @tardigrade

    We’ve seen River regenerate since then, which was more on the scale of the general’s, so it does seem it’s the Doctor who is unusual.

    Having watched both Day of the Moon and Let’s Kill Hitler again recently, sorry to contradict but that’s incorrect. Both of Melody’s regenerations were of the standard reboot format a la Eccelston-to-Tennant.

    @puroandson

    I’m not really sure how you got from what I said to what you said, so I’m too confused to give an answer, sorry. 🙁

    #49055
    Anonymous @

    @morpho

    It was in  your post?   #49030 ?

    You said “moffat made that judgement years ago”? Also, @arbutus asked you what you may have meant. I think you were suggesting that Moffat decided the Dr was half-human? Not sure. You wrote it!

    🙂

    @ohboyatoytruck

    I felt nothing when Capaldi broke through the diamond wall and found himself on his home planet. No that’s not true, I felt cheated

    LOL. Pretty much everyone else was moved beyond description. Me too! Oh well, there’s next year as mum always said whenever I was not happy with my Christmas presents. Maybe you can take out your old RTD series? They’re pretty good too. I liked the old cyberman series myself. And Hartnell and Troughton

    thankyou for reading.

    Son of Puro

     

    #49057
    Anonymous @

    @ohboyatoytruck above I think? Or maybe you’re gone already

    #49058
    Anonymous @

    @puroandson

    Other Puro, I think. 🙂 I don’t know what that stuff about deviousness and honesty meant, you lost me.

    @puroandson, @arbitus

    Haha I didn’t mean anything mysterious by that, just that, before NotD we knew Dr McGann was canon but we didn’t really know how canon. NotD strongly suggested it’s all legit, even the novels. So that the words came out of his mouth I think we have to accept happened. How to make it fit is a whole different question. I’m not on the half-human side of the fence, but I do hope they deal with it in a clever way.

    @bluesqueakpip

    Rule One: the Doctor lies.

    Yes, that would be one way to make it fit. 🙂 Although it looks like they might be going a more interesting route…

    #49059
    TheTardisCoatrack @thetardiscoatrack

    So I am assuming in the process of traveling together Me will give Clara the other chip so she can NOT die (though Clara seems to be doing fine without any help).  Did the Me at the end of the universe already have a “book” about her travels with Clara or is this new in her time stream?

    #49060

    @ohboyatoytruck

    Paragraphs are your friend.

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