Into the Dalek

Home Forums Episodes The Twelfth Doctor Into the Dalek

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    Anonymous @

    @lisa  welcome to the Forum. I think you’re new?  Great argument for Missy being River. I personally don’t think Missy is River but then your particular suggestions such as the way she sacrificed herself for the Dr, the name ‘mysteries’ ( Mel = Melody and Tasha Lem and the various meanings behind the names) are all very interesting and suggestive of the way Moffat likes to use names -Trenza as a braid (something that was mentioned on this site long ago by several clever posters!); Mel as Lem and the wonderful associations with River, the Ponds: the only water in a forest is…etc.



    lisa @lisa

    thanks for answering- 1 more thing I left out- Missy does seem a bit ”off’  – wondering if that might suggest the Dalek that was stuck inside Tasha Lem –   really glad Moffat created Missy- already 1 of my favs-

    midnyt @midnyt

    A few people have put forth the suggestion that Missy might be River. I don’t think she is. River and Tasha Lem had a similar feel to them as characters. You got the feeling that they truly cared about the Doctor.

    Missy feels like a stalker to the Doctor, not like someone who as actually ever been a part of his life. She comes across as every stereotype that guys fear in an obsessed female.

    lisa @lisa

    agree- definitely obsessed- time will tell if its a positive or negative –  not clear about that-  I think to be honest that there is a history cause she refers to him as boyfriend – it might turn out she is a totally new character and that’s fine – but maybe we haven’t seen the end of all the River story- I  just have a hunch that   her story   is potentially still in play


    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @nick @janetteb I agree about Jenny’s self assertiveness. What’s surprising me is so many people seeing her as submissive. She seems perfectly prepared to call her wife out when she thinks she says something out of line.  In a way I’m reminded of Jane Eyre. Originally she is more comfortable as Rochester’s employee, he is her employer but outside of that they are equals, than when she thinks she is about to marry him, as a penniless, familyless woman. And besides, maybe you don’t, as some people think, have to be (Northen) English to make a decent cup of tea, but maybe you need to be human. Vastra provides the beverages when they do the mind-link thing…


    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    I was talking to someone about Who last night (like you do) and they suggested, if the library mainframe and the papal mainframe are the same, could Missy be a virus? Then I was reminded on how a coding mistake (or something) warped someone face but made them a genius. So glitches can happen…

    Anonymous @

    @miapatrick ah yes, I did comment on the fact that Miss Evangelista ended up in the in-between world with a mutilated face. She said something about once being pretty but stupid but now she was ugly but intelligent -dreadfully, terribly paraphrased, my apologies. Certainly Missy’s right eye looks rather odd and creepy. So, whilst it’s not Evangelista it’s some kind of code ‘angel’: evangelista makes ‘angel’; ‘is angel’ or ‘eve’ or ‘evil’. Mmm. Kindest, puro.

    Silverman @silverman

    @seranhi – This incarnation of the Doctor must appear very different to the Clara knew – apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick with what you were saying. I would argue one thing though – I haven’t detected a streak of self-preservation in this Doctor. People who know the series of old may disagree, but I’ve always thought of the Doctor striving for the good of others and being willing to sacrifice himself. This incarnation may lack a ‘bedside manner’ but I didn’t see anything in that situation that signified him caring about his own welfare – he was taking advantage of Ross’ death to save them all. It would be nice if he comforted him, and I think people who are nice wanted him to, but it wouldn’t have saved Ross’ life, or changed his fate, to say sorry.

    @purofilion – sorry if I’m raking up the ‘slap’ debate (hence the ‘tedious’ comment in my last post.). It’s tricky on here – I’m new to the site and find that you log on at a certain time, read comments and want to contribute to the debate, sometimes hours after the last post on it. As stated, when I first watched the episode I didn’t really notice it, or at least wasn’t bothered – it was only after comments on here about it that it got me thinking, and I thought I’d throw my tuppence in.

    I’ve never hit anyone, so consider a physical reaction of any sort to be a poor choice, although I admit women slapping bigger men is sometimes played for laughs/deemed ok because it is reversing the expected dynamic. I certainly wouldn’t class what I saw as domestic violence, though, and am well aware that more serious problems go on in the world than one action in an episode of Doctor Who.

    (Being picky the whole ‘re-organising neural pathways’ was slightly different as the Doc had asked her to do it.)

    Apologies if this is an overly-serious response!

    Serahni @serahni

    @silverman  I was using snippets from both Capaldi’s episodes when I referenced that, sorry!  And admittedly, there is more evidence of it in “Deep Breath”, with his “”Well I’m cold too, there’s no point in us both being cold, give me your coat!” and “there’s no point in him catching us both.”  I understand that these seem to be intentionally ambiguous and, of course, he does come back to save Clara, but was that always his intention?  Or is it that his brain is misfiring, serving up these little moments with utter sincerity before something deeper kicks in and he winds up doing the ‘right thing’?  I’m not sure.

    And yes, you’re right.  In Nightmare In Silver, The Doctor asked her to do it.  By doing so, he gifted her the knowledge that it would help and placed upon her the responsibility to use that knowledge when it was needed, even if he himself had lost the ability to see its merit. 😉  Keep in mind that The Doctor himself, immediately following the slap, is full of praise for her.

    “Clara Oswald, do I really not pay you?”

    “You couldn’t afford me.”

    Silverman @silverman

    @seranhi – ooh, good point! I’ve only watched Deep Breath once, and had completely forgotten about both of those! The coat thing wasn’t very nice, and I was shocked by the ‘there’s no point in him catching us both’, but it was such un-Doctor like behaviour that I’m assuming that it’s something that will be explained later in the series – like his appearance in the artificial forest in the second part of the Weeping Angels story in S5, that was only explained in ‘The Big Bang’. Either that, or his personality was even more fractured as he was still getting himself back together after regeneration.

    Either way, this Doctor obviously has little time for social niceties, or a care for how he’s perceived by others…

    Anonymous @

    @serahni and @silverman -all great points and beautifully expressed!  When you said that “his brain is misfiring” do you mean in a positive way? I’m wondering if, instead of growing lighter and more generous ‘in spirit’, will the Doctor actually go darker? Silverman, I know what you mean about logging on and finding that all these new opinions have been sparking about the night. I often find myself wandering into a day old debate! Kindest, puro

    Serahni @serahni

    @silverman Added more to my comment.  >.>  I had to watch the damn episode again to get the quote. LOL.

    @purofilion  I have always felt that there is something about The Doctor that is…hrm…predetermined?  It seems to me that the reason he has such limited control over his regeneration, (as opposed to, say, Romana, who we saw trying on bodies until she found one she liked), is because The Doctor doesn’t get to choose who is he.  He becomes what is needed.  And I am delighted by the notion that we are now at a point in his story where this Doctor is needed, because it’s bound to be scary as hell!

    Nightmare @nightmare

    Just thought I would say (not really adding to the conversation but….) the line in this episode where Clara refers to herself as the Doctor’s carer then the Doctor says “Yes she’s my carer, she cares so I don’t have to” I thought was really funny, I actually re-wound that bit a couple of times anyway….

    I don’t think the Doctor was being particularly harsh or nasty (the coat bit) however imagine you have just regenerated your lost and confused, you don’t know who you are what type of person you are, you are probably going to be a bit grumpy.  Like when eleven first met young Amy and he told her to cook him food, he seemed a little bit harsh towards a child and as eleven (Matt Smith) said “It’s all new nothing works” and “It’s like eating after brushing your teeth, everything tastes different”.

    None of us truly know what it feels like to regenerate and of course each Doctor whilst generally being the same person has always been a little bit different, however changed slightly throughout the series, maybe this is just twelves way of handling the fact that he now looks completely different.  Although Clara didn’t handle it that well baring in mind she saw the change happen (that irritated me a little).

    thommck @thommck

    @bluesqueakpip @brewski re: everyone getting de-glooped after ending up in the Dalek’s “Organic refuse disposal” I didn’t even notice them all get cleaned up, I was too busy looking for links to Rome! On my re-watch you actually hear the Doctor say

    DOCTOR: Watch it, decontamination tubes are hot.

    I guess it makes sense that anything leading to a disposal area would have some sort of decontamination part in it.

    Re: Miniaturisation – Am I mis-remembering or wasn’t the Master’s Laser Screwdriver capable of miniaturisation? That’s what I thought of when I first saw this ep.

    @serahni If you are trying to get quotes you can always go to a number of websites were they have the entire script! Here’s one although it may be considered cheating by the purest theorists 😉

    Re: Missy – I wonder if we will get any episodes dedicated to her in this series or if it will just be quick clips all the time. Has anybody said that she could be the Doctor himself? I suppose that kind of links in with the theory it is going on inside his head?

    I just saw all of the episode titles for this series again. I won’t say what they are as I know some will consider as spoilers (they are extremely mild ones perhaps) but I’ll just say episode 12 certainly makes a lot more sense than when I first saw it. Also, Episode 6 has a very teasing title.

    Finally, @miapatrick, I don’t think you meant this on purpose but one of your typos made me spit out a bit of coffee


    Is that what happens when we squeeze out a new bonkers theory :D?

    wcasey5 @wcasey5

    How about the Dalek itself. Could it actually be Clara from “Asylum of the Daleks”? After all it referred to the Doctor and Clara as the Doctor and me. It could have been ejected into space when the planet blew up. They said they found it floating in space.

    wolfweed @wolfweed


    Brewski @brewski

    @thommck lol, ok I’ll buy that.  Though I still think they would have been pretty crusty.  :p

    The Master’s screw driver aged the doctor enough to shrivel him up.  In the classic episodes he had a tissue compression device that shrunk people,  but as a way of killing them.


    Brewski @brewski

    10 reasons why Missy is Queen Elizabeth I

    (brought to you by tongue-firmly-planted-in-cheek)

    1. Missy is a sly reference to her nickname “The Virgin Queen”

    2. QEI clearly became unbalanced for being left at the altar and subsequently wore black as in mourning.

    3. After her bloody encounter with the Zygon, QEI obtained the ability to shape-shift and took on the form of a psychotic Mary Poppins.

    4. She is collecting others like her that she perceives were let down by the Doctor
    5. Missy’s remark about the Doctor’s new accent was actually a dig at her cousin Mary
    6. “The Promised Land” is a dig at QEII about Scotland
    7.Missy’s tie pin has an image of QEI on it
    8. QEI, having been stood up by her husband, The Doctor, annulled the marriage and downgraded him to “boyfriend”.
    9. “Gatekeeper of the Nethersphere” refers to the fact that she isn’t going to let another man go where the Doctor did!
    10. You have been mis-saying her name.  Since she is vigorously unmarried, she is not Missy. She is Miss E!


    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    @wolfweed please tell me that Dalek was being built as some kind of wicker man effigy to be burned ceremoniously by some strange whovians cult . 😉 ;p

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    @brewski oh lol that made me laugh and the reasoning actually works if SM is actually twisted enough to use it.

    Nightmare @nightmare

    In one sense I kind of hope Missy is a newish character, however if not it would be cool if Missy is a character from before the time war era. (I don’t really like to say classic Dr Who and New Dr Who as I see it as all the same)

    Brewski @brewski

    @devilishrobby 🙂 yeah I like Moffat because he is so twisted.

    And I love to find connections where they don’t exist.  I could connect up Leela with Lazarus.  (Always looking for a pair L.L.)



    Apropos of nothing at all, every time I read the words “Into The Dalek” this pops into my head (and now it will yours too!):

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Well I am seriously late to the party – so many good posts, some much needed swift modding and here I swim in at the twelfth hour.

    Thanks for your kind wishes @phaseshift x. I’m not well yet – just finished a second course of antibiotics and still don’t think it’s sorted – freaking AWFUL sinus infection – so I’m writing with a swimmy head from my sick-bed (a month now) feeling more than a bit down-at-fin.

    Anyhoo – I did smile @phaseshift and @scaryb at your Danny Pink/ Journey Blue hook – whoo hoo!

    Strap on your red shift/ blue shift hats my fellow fishy tinhatters!

    I think last week someone mentioned that Missy’s locale looks like one of the places in The Girl Who Waited “Two Stream’s Kindness Facility”? Well, I wonder…. Danny Pink (liking the reincarnation/ Pink-icle of Journey’s brother theory) and Journey Blue are now in effect in two (time) streams (just as there were two – red waterfall and green anchor, in the Facility). One remains a soldier and one is an ex soldier who cries at the memory…

    The Facility was a hospital – and we have medicine and healing contrasted with soldiers in this episode. The Aristotle was a converted medical ship, for which there was no need, because the Daleks left no wounded.

    This series therefore carries within it the question arising from the Doctor’s two time-streams from the 50th – the one in which he killed the children of Gallifrey and the one in which he did not – the one in which he was a soldier (like Journey Blue) The War Doctor, and the one in which he was the healer Doctor again, found an alternative solution and cried for the solder-that-was (like Danny Pink).

    But the Twelfth Doctor knows he lived both those time streams – so he is left with the heavy question – Am I a good man?

    And so are we – the theme of this season. For which, I am heartily glad, because many (myself included) were rather worried about the retcon the 50th potentially pulled on the Doctor’s dark part in the last Time War, which has been foundational to RTD’s NuWho.

    Incidentally, the episode riffs on the film Fantastic Voyage (1966) – in which Raquel Welch and others got miniaturised. Lots of nods to the 60s and Who’s origins. I swear there will be a granddaughter in there somewhere…

    As for Missy – she reminds me of Madame Kovarian!

    No doubt there’s lots more red/ blue stuff where that came from, but forgive me for now – my head is swimmy!

    drdai @drdai

    Hi first post here.

    In this episode he mentions about going to skaro and finding out who he was, could anyone tell me if this was an episode BG?

    Also it made my girlfriend think that doctor could be his initials:

    Eg Defender Of Creation, Time, Order, Reality (my anagram after a while thinking of the possibility of this).

    With missy there are amazing points among the posts I’ve read (all 274 of them :P) I at first thought that it was the tardis, due to the same way the dr saved journey (the white light), but it is the same with CAL.

    I have to agree with it possibly being river through CAL, I could understand the boyfriend remark because it’s a different regeneration, so they are technically no longer wed (til death do us part and mattdoc died, so capdoc is her boyfriend).

    I always envisioned capdoc being similar to the first dr when it was shown to be him as 12 because it’s the first regen of this cycle.

    This could explain why he is frustrated (he may not remember a lot from his past regens, hence his first words as capdoc do you know how to fly this?).

    I thought of a connection with journey blue and the tardis, but part way through writing this I got carried away with this essay haha.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @drdai    Welcome! I like your DOCTOR acronym, very nice. The episode the Doctor refers to here is the second ever serial, from back in the Hartnell era, called either The Dead Planet, or The Daleks, or The Mutants. It’s where the Doctor travels to Skaro and meets the Daleks for the very first time. You should check it out, I’m sure it’s available on Dailymotion or someplace.

    ScaryB @scaryb


    Re – War Doctor/Healer Doctor + medical ship/army ship + 2 streams facility + good man/good dalek etc –

    This is why we’ve missed you!! Hope you feel much better very soon. (What colour are your tablets btw – not red and blue by any chance…?!)


    (And LMAO at Pink-icles!)

    This Doctor knows he didn’t kill all the children on Gallifrey – but he also knows he was going to (till Clara’s intervention).

    However in mitigation of this incarnation – a bit I noticed in Deep Breath, but then forgot to post – at the beginning where he’s just staggered out of the TARDIS, with his brain completely stewing with the regeneration, where he’s trying to work out where he stops and others begin (me/not me), just before he faints – he tells Vastra that she’s set the wrong frequency on the lamp-thingies she set up for the dinosaur, that it’s causing the dino distress. This is still a compassionate Doctor – just one whose social/communication skills are a bit lacking.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @pedant and @pufferfish seem to be in perfect harmony with the Skids (thanks to both of you)

    @drdai Welcome. And well done on wading thro 274 posts!! Maybe you’re right – the Doctor starts a regeneration cycle looking older then gets progressively younger (more or less).

    @brewski love the QE I as Missy theory – you nearly have me convinced

    @wolfweed – Wicker-dalek – that’s really freaky 😈


    drdai @drdai

    @scaryb and @arbutus thank you for the warm welcome.

    Is there any major plot point in the hartnell episodes that shows the dr who he really is?

    I think with regards to the regen cycle could it be possible that the personalities are similar each cycle?

    Eg capdoc is similar in personality to hartdoc, I think they tested having 2 doctors with a similar personality with the 11th and 2nd doctors.

    cpgolfer @cpgolfer

    @lisa I liked the river song character the original actress was great at it I always hoped they’d find a way of getting her out of the database, I mean a clever mind like that stuck inside a library the size of a planet with access to teleports hmm. There where plenty of hints that has many wondering if Tasha Lem isn’t River the doctor said you already have a psychopath in there her church is called the mainframe, she can fly the tardis. As far as missy who to me looks like a demented marry poppens  well that’s a mystery only the writers currently know the answers to, giving me another reason to be anxious for the weekend.</p>


    @scaryb @pufferfish

    Ha! – A little synchronicity.  now that seems appropriate to Moffat’s Who! (I don’t really have time to look beyond episode threads and maybe Spoilers, so I’m not even sure which of us got there first.)

    lisa @lisa

    w@cpgolpher –always felt that the way River said goodbye to the Doctor was to say they would see each other again and I am convinced she was Tasha Lem- plus if she could do that psychic connection trick once with Clara she can do something like it again- in any case I believe that the character is still in play — I would be absolutely ok with Missy being someone else- but as of now I will bet on River/Tasha/Melody

    Serahni @serahni

    I am still not sure who I think Missy is but I am pretty certain that I don’t want her to be The Master or River. I feel this series deserves a new direction and new enemies.  I wouldn’t be against her being The Black Guardian or The Rani or some reappearance that hasn’t featured in the new series but not something already rehashed over and over again.  (I am genuinely sick of River.) Even the theorising about Claricles leaves me half hoping that we are close to a resolution.  It just feels like time for something else.

    I am aalso pretty sure I can’t wait for Sunday!  The Robin Hood story looks fun!

    Anonymous @

    @serahni hear hear!  It’s time for someone other than River- her story is done for sure. I think people like to read into things- desperately- because they would like her back. But I think, a genuine new baddy is needed. Or, as you say, an older baddy. I know very little about any of them -except for the Master. Maybe, he’ll turn up with this incarnation? But I doubt it.

    janetteB @janetteb

    Yes I agree @serahni Looking forward to Sunday too. After the intensity of the last two weeks a “fun” episode will be most welcome and it’s Robin Hood!!

    I’m certain that Missy isn’t River Song and hoping that she is an entirely new “villianess”. I suspect if “Claricles” make an appearance it won’t be as the major plot device. In fact as has been pointed out, the Claricles did not go beyond the Eleventh Doctor. Likewise  I think River’s story is done with too however there was that last, teasing, “spoilers” which suggests the Doctor may either encounter her again or receive some kind of message from her. I think she still may have a part to play though not necessarily as a living entity.



    Serahni @serahni

    @purofilion I think you’re right, wishful thinking often plays a part in people’s theorising,  me included! (See my desire for Romana to return. ) I am also aware that I am somewhat influenced by my own lack of interest in both Rose and River’s romantic relationship with The Doctor.  Not a reflection on their excellent portrayal,  I just didn’t feel anything about The Doctor’s apparent interest in them.  So I suppose I can’t point the finger but I still hope for new baddies!

    And Romana.

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord


    Glad to hear from you, but sorry you’re still not feeling better. Hopefully, as and when your swimmy head can cope with it, we’re keeping you entertained. I couldn’t believe we were having a conversation about red-ish and blue people and you weren’t around. IT DIDN’T SEEM RIGHT!

    On missy, I was wondering about that Garden configuration, and it occurred to me that the layout, with the circular display in the centre could be a TARDIS with the theme set to “Paradise”. Now – which flower controls the temporal oscillator? 😀

    I agree with you on the theme. There are questions on the Doctors morality that have existed since the dawn of the show, and I’m glad we get a chance to examine theme without, perhaps, the big question of the Time War business, which tended to dominate the debate since the return.

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord


    Is there any major plot point in the hartnell episodes that shows the dr who he really is?

    I think it’s an interesting question about the reference to The Daleks, and filters into the “Am I a good man” debate.

    I’d argue his first encounter with the Daleks probably did show the Doctor “who he was” – or at least it showed the audience, and I think that’s was Moffat was aiming at.

    In the first serial, The Unearthly Child, the Doctor kidnaps some teachers and they have a misadventure in stone age times (where the Doctor is stopped from braining an unconscious stone age man by his human kidnapee). Not very Doctorish, perhaps?

    With the Daleks, a couple of things are laid out which really define the character. On Skaro he meets the Daleks and their adversaries, the peace loving Thals.

    The Doctor is shown to be guided, above all, by his burning curiosity – he fabricates a reason to explore, and places his companions in serious jeopardy. It’s a repeating meme for the Doctor, and we owe his curiosity 50 years of entertainment.

    Above all – he’s outraged by the Daleks single minded plan to exterminate the Thals, and just as outraged that the Thals unwillingness to fight will see them exterminated. He, with Ians help, turns a group of pacifists into people willing to die to ensure others live. He inspires them, and leads the underdogs to victory. It’s almost the template for many of his subsequent adventures.

    The question of whether he is a “good man” in this scenario is interesting. He subverts the Thals policy of peace at all costs to become fighters. Is that a good thing, in of itself? That depends on your point of view. He does it with the best of intentions though, and the Thals survive. It’s by his actions you judge the Doctor – he tries to do the right thing, often in impossible circumstances.

    His selfishness by placing his own curiosity above the safety of his companions (including his own granddaughter) is another point, and harder to defend. It is however, the predominant driver for the Doctor to explore. As he says in the Daleks:

    You wanted advice you said. I never give it. Never. But I might just say this to you. Always search for truth. My truth is in the stars and yours is here.

    The Doctor is one of the most morally ambiguous heroes in history, and it really started very early. It’s worth exploring those first adventures.

    thommck @thommck

    Welcome @drdai, great 1st post, I love how people here are so engaged that they read through every post, not just dive in 🙂

    What you said sparked a thought in my head (what I think we are now calling a Moffart 😉 )

    This could explain why he is frustrated (he may not remember a lot from his past regens, hence his first words as capdoc do you know how to fly this?).

    These could very well be the first words the 1st Doctor said to Susan as when he originally stole the TARDIS!
    Wouldn’t it be cool if we got another flashback/minisode that showed the first jouney Doc 1 ever took, they surely have the technology to do so but I guess it might be a bit expensive. They could even recreate it with Doc 12 in his place in a timey-wimey way. Maybe I just like the idea of a modern episode filmed in black and white!

    Also, great observation about the connection with journey blue and the TARDIS. Maybe that’s why her family connections were so important in the episode. By that I mean, maybe one of her ancestors was saved by the TARDIS before and she was named after it (a bit like how the name Melody Pond became River Song)

    drdai @drdai

    @thommck thank you.

    That is 1 possibility that I was thinking of with journey blue, another was that it’s a moffhint to her being a possible future companion (main or side companion), my third theory I can’t remember with all the posts I read (and it was the 1 I favoured most).

    That would be amazing for it to happen with hartdoc, they could have the actor who played hartnell in the doctor who documentary (I can’t remember his name).

    @phaseshift it shows us the possibility that he has genuinely forgotten if he was a good man and is trying to find out if he was/is.

    Brewski @brewski


    love the QE I as Missy theory – you nearly have me convinced

    Lol, thanks! 🙂 When it comes to findings parallels, I love going for the absurd. I almost went with “Missy is Adric” again, but decided calling her Miss A was too much. 😉

    Something else occurred to me: Now that there are leaked scripts floating around out there, the awful thing about bonkers theorizing is what happens if we somehow manage to be right! :O Would the mods have no choice but to remove our posts?


    Re Journey Blue being a reference to traveling in the TARDIS. LOVE IT!!


    @serahni and @purofilion I am equally convinced Missy is not River and do not want her to be. I am in the Love River camp and to be honest would not mind seeing her again. But I agree, you have to draw the line somewhere and end it. Parting is such sweet sorrow and all that.


    Speaking of camps, am I the only member of “Please No Valeyard!”? There’s a story line I am okay with being done.



    Wouldn’t it be cool if we got another flashback/minisode that showed the first jouney Doc 1 ever took,

    I was kinda hoping they’d do something like this for the 50<sup>th</sup>, especially given that they’d rebuilt the original TARDIS console for AiSaT!

    (@Drdai That is the docudrama you are remembering: “An Adventure in Space and Time” with David Bradley doing a brilliant job as William Hartnell)

    On the other hand, I find myself torn between wanting to satisfy my curiosity about the back story and also wanting to hang on to the mystery that is “Doctor Who?”

    And then we get those intriguing hints now and then. Like the Doctor telling the Dalek that at first he was nobody, just a man running away – and the name Doctor was just a name he gave himself. Until he met them. How did he put it? That he realized who he was: Not-Dalek. Something like that, I think.


    janetteB @janetteb

    The woman in the shop is Susan. I know this was suggested long ago but after a few wines and lots of gardening I am (for the moment anyway) convinced. Susan has an interest in connecting Clara to the Doctor, not sure why initially but it is also Susan who manipulated the education system to get Clara the job at Coal Hill. It has to be Susan because only Susan can a) Travel in time, being a timelord and all that, b) has the link to Coal Hill and C) would know the Tardis phone number. As to a) she did not have the wherewithall to time travel when left on earth but being smart Gallifreyan I am certain that she would have worked something out eventually, after all, being essentially ageless she had plenty of time to do so.

    @serahni nothing wrong with wishful thinking. Moffat once wished he could write for Dr Who. Look where it got him..

    @juniperfish. Sorry to hear that you are still “under the weather”. Hope the antibiotics kick in soon.



    janetteB @janetteb

    @brewski I am definitely with you on the “not the Valeyard”. I dislike the concept though I can’t comment on the execution as I have not seen the story in which the idea was introduced however I don’t think Moffat would dredge up an idea from the dying years of the show. At least I certainly hope he doesn’t because I barely consider much of what took place in the later years to be “canon”. I think the only elements which should be drawn on from BG Who are the stand out classic ones. I doubt that Missy is either the Valeyard or The Rani though Moffat does recycle old ideas and give them a fresh sheen, so if Missy is the Rani she will be a very different Rani.




    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @janetteb – I can’t imagine Missy as the Rani. My mind just boggles at the Rani ever referring to the Doctor as her ‘boyfriend’. It boggles for quite some time. After it’s finished boggling, I may have to take it for a nice lie down in a darkened room.

    Besides, the audio adventures have cast Siobhan Redmond as a regenerated Rani (apparently Kate O’Mara approved) and she’d also be perfectly castable as the Rani on TV. She’d be brilliant, in fact.

    Currently I’m running with ‘female Master’ (finally out of the closet, hence the ‘boyfriend’ joke) or ‘entirely new character’ in the line of Mme Kovarian.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @drdai    I love this term: a moffhint!   Well done.

    @brewski   Absolutely agree re the Valeyard, I have no interest in going there.

    @janetteb   Except… the Doctor always said that he would have sensed the presence of time lords who still existed. Would he not have sensed his own granddaughter?

    And if Missy were the Rani, she would indeed have to be a “very different Rani”, because I can’t imagine the original Rani behaving in this stalker-like fashion. She had nothing but disdain for the Doctor, as I recall. I would have to agree with @bluesqueakpip that the Master would be the only preexisting character that I could see fitting the bill (although to be sure, I’m not convinced of that either, really!). My money is on “entirely new character”.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @serahni   I meant to add that, leaving aside my own likes and dislikes regarding previous companions and enemies, I agree that it would just be nice to bring in a new element this series. I wasn’t always nuts about the 6th series arc, but at least the threat wasn’t the same old same old. That’s the hazard of Moffat’s hanging threads, I guess: in order to resolve them, old elements sometimes have to return even when it might be nice to move on to new ones!

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @phaseshift    Yes, now that you mention it, the morality discussion gets a bit less interesting when you keep coming up against the Great Wall of “Yes, well, he destroyed his entire race”. I agree that a more subtle examination of the question makes for a better subject. As with this: He subverts the Thals policy of peace at all costs to become fighters.   This is an interesting point, in light of the recent “conversation” about the show as promoting an extreme leftist ideology. Because encouraging the Thals to abandon their pacifism in order to survive isn’t very PC, is it?   🙂

    We owe his curiosity 50 years of entertainment.    Yes!

    drdai @drdai

    @arbutus thanks it came off the top of my head.

    The question I have is who acts in the same style as missy? Who seems quite stalker-ish (any character at all)?

    Brewski @brewski


    The woman in the shop is Susan.

    I really want to see a return of Susan. But I don’t think she’s the woman in the shop. For one thing Clara saw a picture of Susan in the Black Archive but showed no sign of recognition.

    For another, it’s just so not-bonkers-enough. 😛 I’m sticking with The Moment was the Woman in the Shop idea.




    I am definitely with you on the “not the Valeyard”. I dislike the concept though I can’t comment on the execution as I have not seen the story in which the idea was introduced…

    Trial of a Time Lord wasn’t all that bad, given the mileu they had to work in at the time. But… the notion that a future Doctor can come back to steel his previous regenerations? THAT is “even more insane than what’s actually happening”!


    I doubt that Missy is either the Valeyard or The Rani though Moffat does recycle old ideas and give them a fresh sheen, so if Missy is the Rani she will be a very different Rani.

    I am inclined to believe she is going to be a previously unknown character. But one thing I have learned from watching the MoffEra is that she is not going to be anyone any body has guessed anywhere.



    It boggles for quite some time. After it’s finished boggling, I may have to take it for a nice lie down in a darkened room.

    Lol at this! A mind is a terrible thing to boggle. Perhaps after its lie down you can give it a nice cup of alacri-tea


    Currently I’m running with ‘female Master’ (finally out of the closet, hence the ‘boyfriend’ joke)


    What’s the line from “Time Crash”?

    10: Oh, the Master’s back!

    5: Really? Does he still have the rubbish beard?

    10: No! No beard. Well… he has a wife.




    Absolutely agree re the Valeyard, I have no interest in going there.

    Whew! Good. I am glad to know I’m in a safe place. 🙂 I was beginning to think I was the only one.


    Except… the Doctor always said that he would have sensed the presence of time lords who still existed. Would he not have sensed his own granddaughter?

    Unless…. she has been in a chameleon arch… :O

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