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  • #32081
    Anonymous @

    @drben I already know many details. I’m not joking.  Strax is there. And I showed you guys a picture of Strax there. It’s actually in the shot.

    Stuff is going on where they are re-interacting as a part of a future episode.  No Joke.   If you look at the picture I posted you can see the Sontaran in it. It wasn’t Photoshopped other than me writing text on it.

    I do agree it looks too narrow, but Strax is there.

    #32083
    DrBen @drben

    @RickGreen – I still can’t quite tell from your posts whether you are merely very confident in your theory, or whether you have some sort of outsider information that informs your conclusion.

    If it’s the former, fine.  I just disagree.  The photo is blurry and could be any number of things.  The behavior doesn’t seem at all like Strax to me.

    If it’s the latter, you should be talking about it in the Spoilers thread (or not at all – I don’t know if actual leaks are beyond the pale in this forum).

    Personally, I will be irritated if it turns out to be Strax.

    #32084
    Anonymous @

    It’s obvious and he’s not the only one interacting in other places.  I’m not speculating because I didn’t have to.  It is them interacting in relation to a future episode.

    Bonus Predictions…

    Or is it a different Sontaran?

    Who was banging on the door? What was said to the Doctor?

    Will the Doctor meet an old Coal Hill school alumni

    Will there be more Dinosaurs in a later episode smashing robots?

    What about going back into Genesis of the Daleks and interacting there sometime?

    Will Rusty appear and save the day?

    Only half of the bonus predictions are true. Which half?

     

    Sorry enough of that I’m just sticking to the Sontaran thing in the picture. What do I know.

     

    #32085
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    Going back to @purofilion and the whole Gretchenfrage from ages ago. It’s been swishing around at the back of my head. I studied German and loved Goethe, so I’m probably grasping, but…

    … Perhaps a point of interest (alternatively a point of boredom) is that in Faust, Gretchen is saved. She is explicitly and noticeably saved, in that when she dies in the play, the Voice Of God shouts from the wings “She is saved!” So definitely an emphasis on being saved.

    So if there’s a deliberate Faust allusion, then the name Gretchen definitely implies being saved…

    Except that it doesn’t. Because Goethe spent a lot of his life writing Faust, and earlier on in the rough drafts of Faust (or the Urfaust (original Faust)) the Voice Of God shouted from the wings “She is damned!”. So between the rough drafts and the final version, the metaphysical fate of the Gretchen character changed from hellbound to heavenbound – all at the stroke of a pen.

    Now why did Goethe change his mind? Was it maturity that softened his heart to the plight of poor Gretchen? Or was it the need to appease a growing commercial audience that convinced Goethe to send her to heaven? Or was it just the random and inexplicable whim of the all-powerful author?

    Why am I posting this here and not back on “Into the Dalek”? (I hear you ask) Well, in answer to your question (we really didn’t ask ourselves that, but do go on…) I want to float the theory that the allusions to Faust (and there are a few of them, I think) are deliberate, and they point towards an ongoing Faustian theme. (Stay with me here…

    In the old folk tales (pre-Goethe) Faust sold his soul for anything from a feeling of true bliss to material wealth to the elixir of eternal life…

    Now, could it be that the Doctor has unwittingly entered into some sort of Faustian contract? Do his extra 13 regenerations carry some sort of yet-to-be-discovered Faustian price?

    Or is Moffat being all postmodern and giving a little wink to the concept of the “whim of the author” (Screw canon. I’m God of the Whoniverse and I’ll save who I like… “Never tell me the rules”)?

    Or is the writer very subtly pointing out (to a ridiculously small number of people, possibly only me) that the mature Doctor (like the older Goethe) is more inclined to mercy than his brusque demeanour might have us believe.

    Or is the Nethersphere (Please can we start calling it the Nether Regions? Just for larks?) a morally ambiguous place? Is Gretchen Carlisle both saved and damned in some weird-but-linked-to-Goethe way?

    Or is it a more general allusion to old Romantic ideals?

    Or did Moffat just throw a dart at a list of baby names?… Am I wasting my life?

    @rickgreen – All of the above is scientific FACT. 🙂
    x

    #32087
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @oblique
    I’d be interested to know your thoughts about Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland and The Wonderful Wizard of Oz. Are they both just children’s books written only for children with the sole purpose of commercial gain? Or can they be read at a number of levels? Are they in fact a bit clever?
    x

    #32088
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @RickGreen and @drben

    Any information derived from a not-yet-broadcast episode does not belong in this thread. If it’s from one of the episodes leaked online it’s flat out forbidden – that’s stated on the home page.

    If it’s from location photos, cast information or a mate on the production team, it’s a spoiler and belongs in the Spoiler thread, only. Official previews and official clips live in the Trailers blog.

    Rick, if you’ve worked out this theory from examining stills from the already broadcast episodes using high magnification, fine. That’s what we do. If you’ve worked it out using any information at all from an episode not yet broadcast, you shouldn’t be here. You should be in the Spoiler thread.

    Theories that do not use information from not-yet-broadcast episodes don’t count as spoilers and don’t need a warning. Even if you have spotted Strax waving at the camera (during an already broadcast episode) in the reflection on a dessert spoon. 😀

    #32089
    DrBen @drben

    Thanks, @bluesqueakpip.

    #32090
    Anonymous @

    I will use the spoiler thread. I didn’t know about it when I first posted. I learned after the fact. It’s derived from more than the still image which I extracted myself. There’s more to my knowledge than what is already there so I will use the other thread which I also posted in.

    #32091
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @idiotsavon     Can I just say, this is in its entirety the best post I have read in ages?

    In my view, the contrast between Faust and UrFaust suggests that, while the self-sacrificial characters appear to have been saved, they have in reality been damned. Missy is clearly Faust (or maybe Goethe; not really clear on that point– thoughts?).

    But no; if the Doctor is a Faust character, perhaps Missy is in fact the devil, and her Nether Regions are exactly that, and Gretchen et al have indeed gone to hell. Maybe the Doctor will have to save them from the devil with some really great fiddle playing? Or would it be the pipes, in his case? (Not the spoons, we’ve moved on.)

    I’m feeling a bit giddy now, I don’t usually guess any of the answers!

    #32092
    DrBen @drben

    In my view, the contrast between Faust and UrFaust suggests that, while the self-sacrificial characters appear to have been saved, they have in reality been damned. Missy is clearly Faust (or maybe Goethe; not really clear on that point– thoughts?).

    But no; if the Doctor is a Faust character, perhaps Missy is in fact the devil, and her Nether Regions are exactly that, and Gretchen et al have indeed gone to hell. Maybe the Doctor will have to save them from the devil with some really great fiddle playing? Or would it be the pipes, in his case? (Not the spoons, we’ve moved on.)

    I too am digging this theory.  But let me throw in a twist.

    We are being instructed this season to part with our pre-conceived notions, and that our first instincts are not always correct.  (Robin Hood is real after all!  The monster knocking at the door is just the hull settling!)

    Given Missy’s odd manner, and her “Welcome to Heaven” bit, we (as clever suspicious DW fans) will immediately assume the opposite – that Missy is some sort of malevolent creature.

    But what if she is exactly what she says she is?  Not God per se, but some creature of salvation and good?  (After all, we’ve already met The Devil, haven’t we?)

    This fits into @idiotsavon ‘s discussion of Goethe’s Gretchen being alternately damned and saved.  If the Doctor is Faust, making a bargain (through Clara) for a new regeneration cycle (with the Time Lords?) in exchange for… (what? his soul?)… and Gretchen and the others are sacrificed along the way as pawns in that bargain… Well, maybe Clara is the final sacrifice?  There have been numerous theories in this forum that she will meet her end sooner rather than later.

    And maybe Missy will grant her salvation, finally (re)uniting the Claricles?

    #32093
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    Just sitting down to respond, but my dog has other ideas. Very quickly though: Unlike Goethe’s world, the Whoniverse cannot and will never offer an unambiguous position as far as metaphysics is concerned. Goethe’s world has a God, a heaven and a hell. Dr Who has an eternally vast universe ruled by laws of (all be it wibbly wobbly) time and (if you ask a physicist nonsensey-wonsensey) science. Personally I think that Heaven/The Promised Land/The Nether Region is a very real physical place.
    Anyway, I’m always grasping for literary references, so here’s a thought: Remember Clara’s necklace that she used to wear? The bird with a wide wingspan hanging around her neck?… I’ve not studied the Rime of the Ancient Mariner, but bet someone on this forum has… If we go with the idea that Clara will be in some way a sacrifice, and the albatross around the neck is a poetic symbol of wrongdoing/guilt/unnecessary sacrifice of something magnificent… Is Clara’s early necklace a portent of her ultimate fate??

    My dog is attempting to lick my skin from my face. (I am 4 minutes late for our evening walk.) Very torn, but should probably take her out. I do love this forum 🙂 x

    #32094
    Oblique @oblique

    Believe me, I’m well aware of  what goes into the making of a television programme and how long it takes to write a script, a play, a book… You make assumptions.  I have friends who are published writers and others who work across a lot of disciplines in the film and television industry; Sci-Fi included.

    I do appreciate the work that goes into Dr Who, and I take your comments on board. But… there is a lot of conjecture; and please, I’m not talking about continuity between individual episodes that multi-link current and previous seasons.

    Clearly my comments have sparked controversy. Not at all my intention. I think our appreciation of the show differs.

    (Release the antibodies)

    sincere regards

    Oblique x

     

    #32095
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @drben    That’s a really good point about preconceived notions playing out in an unexpected way. And yes, it has been suggested that we might also be making assumptions about Missy (although I would argue that if so, we have been deliberately misdirected through the way she was written and played in her first appearance).

    Also, if the Doctor unwittingly traded his soul for a new regenerative cycle, that would explain why he seems to be searching so hard for it now (“am I a good man”, etc.). He’s certainly taking a longer time about figuring out “who he is” than previous regenerations have done.

    Of course, there is also the question of whether a thirteenth regeneration (something that wouldn’t normally happen) would be more difficult than a normal one, and whether future regenerations will always be this hard, or whether it’s just that there has been, as some have suggested, a “reset”. There’s also this: The Eleventh Doctor is one of the very few incarnations to die of old age, rather than misadventure of some kind. The War Doctor seems to have done so as well, and of course, we were not witness to Nine’s beginnings. (Many have assumed that he met Rose very quickly after regeneration, but we don’t have what I would call hard evidence that he was new out of the box!) The First Doctor’s regen was also triggered by age, but he was so early on in the cycle that it could perhaps be argued that the age of the body didn’t matter as much.

    #32096
    wcasey5 @wcasey5

    @arbutus there is a shred of evidence that nine was new, he looked in the mirror in Rose’s apartment and made a comment about his new ears or something like that, now he didn’t check to see if he was ginger….. If that counts.

    #32097
    Oblique @oblique

    Idiotsavon: My opinion of Alice and Oz… No they’re not written simply for the entertainment of children; yes they can be read as sub-textural pieces, and no they weren’t written / produced to make money, although perhaps with Judy Garland the studio expected at least some return… Alice keeps on being revived, and Oz has had a prequel.

    But here all three stories had a reasonable time to play, it had time to set up its characters, introduce plot (though Alice it might be argued didn’t need a plot to wow the Victorians; it was all so remarkable) and there was the important ingredient of anticipation.

    Whereas nu-who also has enormous ideas which do not always relate successfully to the screen in the time available to tell the story. Dr Who, to me, feels rushed. I think some episodes work very well within the parameter of a single episode, others need more.

    Sub-context? Yes of course..

    Profit! Absolutely: DVD sales and merchandise.  The BBC are business like any other.

    Oblique

    #32098
    DrBen @drben

    @arbutus – Lots to think about, but I want to address the minor point of whether Nine was fresh out of the box.  I think the “Rose” episode is actually a bit inconsistent on that point.  On the one hand, Clive has a website full of sightings of a Doctor with Nine’s face throughout history, suggesting that he’s been mucking about for a while.  On the other hand, when Nine first goes into Rose’s apartment, he looks disapprovingly at himself in a mirror and futzes with his ears, as if he’s still getting used to them.

    I guess the answer is that Nine has been around long enough to visit a few places in Earth history, but not long enough to be fully acclimated to his big ears. 🙂

    #32099
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @drben – alternatively, Nine went on a history tour between dematerialising the TARDIS when Rose turned him down, and coming back to give her a second chance.

    #32100
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @wcasey5   Yes, I’m aware of that scene, but that’s what I meant by not definitive. It suggests he’s still getting used to his looks, but that doesn’t mean that as @drben says, he hasn’t had a few adventures already. We know that he regenerated alone in the TARDIS, but we have no idea what happened next. When Rose met him, he was already in the middle of a “thing”, and may have been up to a certain amount, without having had loads of time to look in mirrors and so on. Personally, I think they deliberately left that point vague by introducing Clive and the Doctor sightings, to leave possibilities open for future stories and so on. But Nine’s regeneration is not the point, really, except to say that it’s possible that he could have had a rough time learning to know himself before meeting Rose. As Twelve is having a rough time now.

    #32101
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @oblique    I agree that After Gap Who has often felt rushed to me as well. Personally, I prefer the more leisurely pace of old (but I know that not everyone would agree with me on this!) But I do think that Moffat and the other writers are well aware of the fandom’s love of picking things apart and looking for clues, and I’m sure that many of these “clues” and “misdirections” are quite deliberate. This is the new way of watching TV, of course, and it applies to the fans of many different shows. Back in the day, people didn’t watch TV in the same way, because, with a few exceptions, there weren’t story arcs as we have now. That started in the eighties, for the most part, at least in North America.

    It has taken a bit of getting used to, for me, and I tend to prefer the less conspicuous arc of the type that we seem to be getting here, over the heavier-handed variety (Season Six, for instance, where you really couldn’t miss any episodes if you wanted it to make sense). I suspect that this has been a deliberate attempt on Moffat’s part to make everyone happy. (Not sure that will ever work!) Here, I can enjoy the stories on their own merits (or not, as the case might be). I can have fun hyper-analyzing every camera angle if I like, or just watch the story and go, “Hey, wasn’t Capaldi great in that scene?” and “Funny lines in that one” and so on.

    Actually, I usually do both.   🙂

    #32102
    DrBen @drben

    @bluesqueakpip – True!  Actually, if you haven’t read it yet, Charlie Higson’s excellent short story The Beast of Babylon (from the super-fun 11 Doctors, 11 Stories collection) tells the story of where Nine goes between Rose turning him down, and coming back to give her a second chance.

    @arbutus – I’ll agree that, regardless, Nine seems to be having identity trouble even after meeting Rose.  He is generally genial, and then basically loses it during “Dalek”.  So your point about follow-ups to “old age” regenerations may be valid.  Although I’m inclined to think that the “new cycle” thing is more likely to blame for Thirteen’s existential crisis.

    #32103
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @drben   On the whole, I think you’re probably right. The “old age” thing occurred to me as I was writing, and I threw it in because, well, bonkers, and so on.   🙂

    #32104
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Can’t resist putting my twopennuth worth in on the degree of 9’s newness in the “Rose” episode. I think he had been around for a while as @drben said Clive seemed to have an archive of what appeared to be 9 having been around for some time at least on earth.

    As to the ears thing which I didn’t think much of at the time has bought to mind a comment by wardoc as he begins to regen about big ears. So perhaps it’s something like the ginger thing the doctor has he doesn’t like big ears.

    Other than that it just felt like he had been around for a while.

    #32105
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @oblique
    Hee hee, I was banging on about the cleverness of Dr Who the other day, and my friend sent me this link to some overly-academic Mr Men reviews. His point is well-made 🙂
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A1SM813W6H36YA/ref=cm_pdp_rev_all?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview

    Is that what we’re doing, in your view? Over-analysing and conferring meaning that isn’t really there?
    Or is it something else? I ask again: Am I wasting my life? 🙂
    x

    #32106
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @oblique (again)
    I like what you said about pace, and am interested in your thoughts. I don’t watch much TV, but when I do, I feel like there’s some unwritten rule that scenes can’t last more than ten seconds, and I often find it offputting.
    I think this Dr Who series is slower-paced and I like that a lot. Much as I adored Matt Smith, I’m beginning to appreciate the brooding and the waiting and the quiet of Peter Capaldi’s Doctor.
    Do you think so far that this series is too rushed?
    I’m second guessing you here, but I feel like you think that bonkers theorising is a bad thing, whereas I think it’s a wonderful thing. It doesn’t matter if the Dr Who franchise is chasing targets, competing with X-Factor and trying to sell a million Clara Dolls by next Tuesday. Stephen Moffat remains an artist, and artists delight in art. We don’t know what the twist will be but we know there will be a twist. We don’t know what the clues are, but we know there are clues. We don’t know what the visual allusions are, but we can be sure they’re staring us in the face.
    Guessing is fun.
    x

    #32107
    Spider @spider

    @idiotsavon  Of course we are over analysing and conferring meaning that isn’t there (or is there, who knows!). That’s not wasting life, that’s fun! 😉

    “State your name, rank and intention: The Doctor, doctor, fun”

    Personally I’m waiting for Mr Men titles: Mr Timelord Victorious, or Mr Angry Eyebrows…or Little Miss impossible girl…oh dear, i may have started a thing….XD

    Also, totally agree with you that the slower pace is a welcome difference. I loved the faster paced stuff for other doctors, but it totally fits Capaldi’s doctor to be a  slow(er) burner.

    (\(\;;/)/)

    #32108
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @spider

    Ha ha, that’s ok then. When I arrive dishevelled and unprepared for work tomorrow, I’ll simply explain that I was very, very busy “conferring meaning that wasn’t there”

    And she’ll say “We’ve all been conferring meaning that wasn’t there, but some of us found time to iron our trousers.”

    And that will be true on a frightening number of levels.

    My advice: You need to copyright the whole Mr Men / Dr Who thing before it’s too late 🙂
    x

    #32109

    @oblique

    You seem to be having difficulty keeping the goal posts in the same place.

    #32110
    Spider @spider

    @idiotsavon Ah, then the response to tell your boss that the ‘trousers of iron’ (oh hello, episode title?) are a fixed point in time and will be instrumental in the destruction of the entire human race unless YOU can save it. I then recommend waving your hands about in an enigmatic way while brandishing some sort of screwdriver with a coloured LED attached and babbling incoherently  (alternatively insert any favoutie Doctor mannerisms/catchphrases in here)

    On the other hand i do not condone this as a form of rapid promotion of job prospects XD

    Ok! Need to go register this Mr Men / Dr who thing before some other time traveler…oh. Bollocks!

    (\(\;;/)/)

     

    #32113
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @idiotsavon      Those Mr. Men reviews are perfect. Some people are just really, really funny!

    @spider   Maybe it’s the iron that’s the fixed point! I might just be using that excuse next time the shirts are piling up. Because, frankly, people in general confer too much meaning on pressed shirts that really, just isn’t there.

    So far, I must say that Moffat has been ringing all the bells for me: new Doctor less “user friendly” but both poignant and hilarious; story arc low key but still intriguing; inappropriate snogging kept out of Doctor/companion relationship; nice balance between “character” stories and what one of my medieval musician friends calls “drums and fun”; lots of great little moments with me going “YES!”. I have probably left more good bits out. I am loving this series!  🙂

    #32115
    Anonymous @

    @spider

    Personally I’m waiting for Mr Men titles: Mr Timelord Victorious, or Mr Angry Eyebrows…or Little Miss impossible girl…oh dear, i may have started a thing…

    http://www.redbubble.com/people/mandrie/works/10332978-little-miss-pond-sticker?p=sticker

    #32118
    Anonymous @

    Coming late to this party as it’s been a seriously hectic week, so apologies if I’m repeating stuff others have said.

    In a series that’s been enjoyable but kind of a magpie affair — Deep Breath, Paternoster gang, riffing on Girl in the Fireplace as well as kisses to the further past; Into the Dalek, riffing on Asylum of the Daleks, Dalek, I-Borg and others; Robots of Sherwood, riffing on Androids of Tara as well as that pirate one of Smithy’s whose title I can never remember — this was a stone-cold instant classic.

    Excellent performances. I wasn’t really a fan of Clara last year but Jenna Coleman has been just awesome this year. From thinking it might be time for her to go, I really don’t want her to now. Samuel Anderson has been terrific too, managing to bring something new to the male companion bit. (I like the theory that he might be a male equivalent of the Claricles. Not sure it’ll turn out to be the case but I do like it.)

    Capaldi continues to be a revelation too. Not quite the Doctor I expected. A bit more vulnerable, even a bit more childlike. And still just the faintest hint of Malcolm Tucker to him. But in a good way. And this was the first episode where I think we really got a sense of his Doctor. And this makes me think that Listen has been placed just slightly too late in the run. I think it could quite comfortably have swapped places with Robots of Sherwood, which was too frenetic and messy for us to get a good sense of this Doc. Into the Dalek was necessary as the second episode as it brought in the Danny Pink backstory stuff.

    The Young Doctor stuff was a bold stroke and I suspect it’s at least partially meant to mirror the Master’s story from a couple of series back — the Doctor saw the stars and catharsis of fear, whereas the Master saw tempered schism and the madness that came with it. I’m back to thinking that we could well see the Master again before the end of the year.

    Finally, much was made of the coup of Ben Wheatley directing the opening episodes, but I’m afraid that I found them rather workmanlike and even slightly clumsy in places. But Douglas Mackinnon’s work has far excelled it. Between his Who episodes this year and his sterling work on Line of Duty last year, he’s fast becoming the best director working in British TV at the moment.

    #32122
    Anonymous @

    @idiotsavon  right ‘the Gretchen parallel’. I think it’s on the money as either ‘saved and ‘not saved’. People often think it was a pact with the devil -when it was a bet; quite different, yeah?

    “Dass ich erkenne was die

    Welt Im Innersten Zusammenhalt”

    The rest, I’m afraid my poor German will be unable to express! So here he says “so that I see and know what holds the inner and lower worlds together”.

    Mmm. Very Doctor, no?

    Faust and indeed poor Gretchen (who knows more than she’s letting on and is happy to lose her virginity btw) can be arrogant figures, with a hubris that at least he’ll attain perfect insight into the universe.

    idiotsavon -you are onto something. I would, of course,  have liked to have been onto it first -but that’s Faustian and look what happened there!

    Kindest, puro.

    #32123
    Anonymous @

    @isiotsavon  I see Clara as a Gretchen figure personally. I know she isn’t but let’s check out her name….before Clara there was….Gretchen?

    #32124
    Anonymous @

    oh flip I meant @idiotsavon above

    #32125
    Whisht @whisht

    btw @idiotsavon – I’m really liking the Faust theories!

    Mainly as they add a sheen of class to the bonkerising (not that they needed it!).

    Although not connected, some comments from people (I won’t “@” them as I may be wrong about their views – obviously if they are contributors then they’ll say “yeah!” or “no!”) seem to suggest we’re attributing connections and intricacies in the scripts where none exist and giving writers (Moffat etc) credit where none is due.
    [If not, no worries, I’ve misunderstood and the rest of this is just me farting with words.]

    From my own point of view what I think we’re doing (or at least some of us) is riffing on what we’re watching.

    Or…[scratching for a metaphor] its like being given oblique clues in a crossword and basically saying “fuckit – I don’t understand that clue, but if I put this word across here, then I can make this word down and this word across here. hm, ok now I need a word for here, so… well, this word fits, so…”.

    Now, some of us are better at finding the oblique references, but others just enjoy making up shit and making the words fit the crossword.

    Good news is everyone enjoys what they’re doing! We’re being creative in our own ways.

    which is kinda the point.

    Of course (ah name escapes me as to who was asserting “FACTS”) but actual facts completely fuck this up. They kill speculation. They kill ‘cramming words into a crossword’. They kill creativity – not the creativity of the writers, but the creativity/ mental dexterity and fun of people who enjoy being here.

    hey ho – apologies for windbagging (is that a word?) – farting words, but… if you know facts – be careful because you’re pissing on people’s canvas (ie use the Spoilers thread). If you don’t like conjecture erm, you’re gonna really hate the episode threads, but the Memories threads etc will still be fantastic for talking about what you lov about the show!

    #32126
    Anonymous @

    @Christ @whisht I thought you’d gone and disappeared and there you are with a hat trick of excellence. Great. Love it.

    Back to Gretchen theorising; I would add that in Czech Clara is a diminutive of margrite, magrite and Marla which is often simply said as M’Carla (it’s a loving term similar to ‘tu’ in French, ie, you’d better know them!).  My maiden Czech aunts when I’d visit The Czech Republic (we just call it ‘Czecha’) would be introducing me to “Marlas and M’Carla’s”

    So, anyway, Magritte is often used for Gretchen.

    Right…too tenuous, but F.U.N. Puro.

    #32129
    Anonymous @

    @idiotsavon and @whisht and @oblique I think that what Whisht’s saying is spot on. We gain insight and a boat-load of fun by doing this shit. Creativity and speculation are altered by facts. I think that as someone else said upstream, we have a Dr Who World which exists outside of our realm and thinking. This makes for a different, lateral or alternate reality.

    I woke up and having read ‘savon’s words, promptly pulled out all my Faust books and printed bit and bobs and got to work!

    “The most glorious kind of work is play”: that’s what this Forum gives me, even though I occasionally  often piss people off (it happens to all of us I expect). Kindest, puro.

    #32132
    Timeloop @timeloop

    Just checking in if some new revelations have occured (I usually stop posting after a few days of an episode because there is no new input and I like to speculate with something to back up ideas)  in my absence and I find Faust to be back in the game?! Very surprised and pleased all the same.

    Some nice motives @idiotsavon … The real question is : Does Moffat know Faust and/or Goethe? (BTW I think he changed it to heavenbound to underline that ones actions can always influence the future. If she was hellbound it would leave less hope for the reader, I guess. A life lesson, so to say -it’s never to late)

    Also, allow yourself the fun to look up old theories… I remember one that referenced egyptian mytology and different stages in dying or something like that and I went ahead and did a search…. ‘Eygptian’ brought up a lot of stuff. Interestingly enough Clara had a ‘Phoenix theme’ (being born, living, dying times infinity) once… not sure might have been as early as Cold war.

    @purofilion Did I miss someting? Did you just ‘@’ Christ? XD

     

     

    #32133
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @spider when you wrote “who knows” I saw Tom Baker speaking to Matt Smith: “Who knows, eh? (taps nose) WHO knows.” What an incredible scene that was. (Also “The Trousers of Iron”? This simply has to happen)

    @arbutus I know, the Mr Men reviews are brilliant aren’t they? If I’d written them, that would be my entire life’s work done… Also, is it just me or is the whole concept of ironing completely absurd?

    @whisht Everything that you just said. Brilliant. Can I paste it into an email and send it to the so-called friend who sent me the Mr Men reviews? And for that matter to anyone who tries to piss on the bonfire (the Bonkers Bonfire… The Bonkfire?? Could that be a Thing?)

    @purofilion Ooh, really good point about the bet. In the folk tales, it’s a pact, but Goethe puts his own take on it and turns it into a wager. Gives Faust free will. Not sure what to make of that, but the Dalek in Ep 2 jumps to mind – free will when he’s broken? Or free will when he’s fixed? Or free will when he’s fixed but still “good”?…

    @timeloop Good question. Do we think that Moffat knows and/or cares about Goethe and the whole Urfaust/Faust thing? If we must bother ourselves with pesky FACTS, then probably not. However, the whole Faustian pact with the devil is a very old and very common story. I hope Goethe is involved, but he doesn’t have to be. Marlowe wrote a Faust story too. I know next to nothing about it, but I think Marlowe’s Faust was Dr Faustus (A Doctor, no less) who made a pact with the devil. And if I remember rightly, @bluesqueakpip said Marlowe’s version had a Gretchen character who went quite unambiguously to hell (is that right?)

    … With all this talk of saving/not saving and moral ambiguity, I’m reminded of what you @purofilion said about Waiting For Godot in the Deep Breath comments. You said something in that post about the Doctor being like the Thief from the Gospels… This really isn’t my area, and correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t Waiting For Godot include a discussion between Vladimir and Estragon about the two Gospel thieves? And about how the Gospels differ in their telling of that story? And the dialogue points towards the arbitrary nature of salvation, I think. Possibly? Anyway, the whole thing of being saved/not saved is there. Or not there. One or the other 🙂

    #32134
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @ timeloop

    I think he changed it to heavenbound to underline that ones actions can always influence the future.

    Never occurred to me. I really like that. It’s never too late 🙂
    x

    #32138
    janetteB @janetteb

    @idiotsavon one thing I suspect that Moffat never does is throw an arrow at a list of baby names. The ambiguity of Gretchen’s final destination would seem to echo the mystery surrounding where Gretchen Carlisle ends up.

    Just sitting down to respond, but my dog has other ideas. Very quickly though: Unlike Goethe’s world, the Whoniverse cannot and will never offer an unambiguous position as far as metaphysics is concerned. Goethe’s world has a God, a heaven and a hell. Dr Who has an eternally vast universe ruled by laws of (all be it wibbly wobbly) time and (if you ask a physicist nonsensey-wonsensey) science. Personally I think that Heaven/The Promised Land/The Nether Region is a very real physical place.

    Well said.

    @arbutus

    Because, frankly, people in general confer too much meaning on pressed shirts that really, just isn’t there.

    Well said too.

    @whisht

    Now, some of us are better at finding the oblique references, but others just enjoy making up shit and making the words fit the crossword.

    When I read that I thought, “oh dear, I am one of the later”. However I am constantly crossing out my theories as I see they don’t quite fit so my crossword is covered in layers of ink and lines so there is almost nothing left by the end but a failed attempt at modern art. But is is all good fun.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #32140
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @whisht @janetteb   If we are going with a crossword analogy now, I must admit that I get the easy bits done and usually give up, until next week when the answers are given. And this is in fact eerily similar to my approach to bonkers theorizing as well. So apparently the analogy works.

    #32144
    Rob @rob

    May just have had one coffee too many…… nope hold on there is no such thing ad too much coffee or a theory too bonkers either….

    Well woke up this morning with Missy on my brain cell ( the one which cant cope with cryptic crosswords but throws words into grids) and she is saving those who the Doctor has manipulated into doing good at the cost of their lives.

    If you can be manipulated by the Doctor surely a Master can twist them to her design too

    Must go quadruple espresso to glug

    #32147
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @idiotsavon

    Do we think that Moffat knows and/or cares about Goethe and the whole Urfaust/Faust thing?

    He’s an English graduate of Glasgow University; it’s quite possible that he’s either read Goethe’s Faust (or studied the plotline) to compare it with Marlowe’s Doctor Faustus. And you certainly study earlier versions.

    Or, he may have seen the opera. There was a production by the ENO back in 2011.

    [I forgot to add that Arthur Darvill played Mephistopheles in Marlowe’s version during the break between filming Series 6 and 7. It’s unthinkable that Moffat didn’t go and see that.]

    #32148
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @bluesqueakpip Man, Moffat knowing Goethe is as surreal to me as Tom Hanks knowing Eisenhüttenstadt (a city in the far east, so far east that we jokingly say it’s west Poland.), a place I did a bike tour to once.

    @idiotsavon Hey, that’s what this place is for! Getting new ideas while contemplating other peoples ideas ;D

    And to stick with the crossword analogy: I’m the one that gets easily bored by questions nobody needs the answer to and are easy to look up if really needed. I guess they are the most fun when solved with a group of people, thinking together to make it work.

    #32153
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @bluesqueakpip @timeloop
    Re: whether the choice of the name “Gretchen” implies ambiguity about where she goes when she (apparently) dies…

    It feels a bit of a stretch to assume that Moffat knows and cares about the contrasting fates of Gretchen in Goethe’s earlier and later versions of Faust.

    However, it’s not too much of a stretch to think that he saw/read/studied Goethe’s Faust (final version) at some point. And we can be certain that he is familiar with Marlowe’s Dr Faustus.

    Moffat need not have studied Goethe in any depth. If Marlowe’s Gretchen is damned, and Goethe’s Gretchen is saved, we get the same ambiguity.

    Also, much to my shame I know very little about English literature – so I looked up Marlowe’s Dr Faustus on Wikipedia. I thought the following was interesting (under the title “Damnation or Salvation”)

    The scene following begins with Faustus’s friends discovering his clothes strewn about the stage: from this they conclude that Faustus was damned. However, his friends decide to give him a final party, a religious ceremony that hints at salvation. The discovery of the clothes is a scene present only in the later ‘B text’ of the play — in the earlier version of the play devils carry Faustus off the stage.

    So both Goethe and Marlowe had a change of heart when it came to damning people.

    If there is a Faustian undercurrent (and I think there is) then there’s also a lot of scope for ambiguity about the nature of redemption/damnation – regardless of whether or not Moffat is a Goethe expert.

    #32154
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    Just to add: Dr Who will always be non-committal where religion is concerned. So definitely no way that this is about any sort of Life Everlasting. Whatever Missy is, she’s not the Devil, and whatever her Nether Regions are, they’re secular, not spiritual. And they’re scientifically possible (even if it’s in a nonsense wonsensey way).
    x

    #32155
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Wow! Loads to catch up on.

    Great discussion around the Faust themes. Fascinating that both Marlowe and Goethe had a change of heart about who to give redemption to (thanks @idiotsavon ).

    I also liked the comment (sorry, can’t find the post to credit) about how 11 was the first Doctor to actually experience old age. Capaldi’s Doctor is now approx 2,000 years old. And yet he’s also had a rebirth, more than just a regeneration – the start of a new cycle. Self-questioning and a different perspective is to be expected and welcomed.

    @spider and @fatmaninabox LOVE the Doctor-themed Mr Men

    @whisht Great post re crosswords. I used to love crosswords a lot, but it would depend a lot on the compiler whether I could solve them or not. Some compilers I just didn’t get at all! (And thanks for the Quinch pic on the other thread which I can’t find now)

    @Anyone who thinks bonkers theorising is stupid, or just not fun – can I (respectfully!) suggest this isn’t the right forum for you. (The clue’s in the Forum strapline!)

    @jimthefish I wouldn’t knock Ben Wheatley, I liked what he did on the first 2 episodes, but I agree, I think MacKinnon is outstanding. Looking forward to seeing what he does with Time Heist, which looks like being more action based. Keep an eye on fellow Scot Colm McCarthy who’s just directed the whole of the new Peaky Blinders series. He hasa very different style from MacKinnon,  but his stuff has a verve and confidence to it which I really like. (Also directed Bells of St John and the Sherlock wedding one).

    #32158
    Katharine @katharine

    I’ve lurked here for a long time (so much pleasanter than the Guardian BTL!), but never till now felt impelled to sign up and join in, as I’m not so knowledgeable about Doctor Who as to be able to contribute to all the theorising, despite my first Doctor being Patrick Troughton (I gave up after Peter Davison and didn’t start watching again till Eccleston). However, I do know about early modern drama (I teach it) – my one contribution to the Guardian blog was to identify the quotation from Antony and Cleopatra in ‘The Crimson Horror’ – so the not very accurate (sorry!) references to Marlowe’s Doctor Faustus have brought me out of hiding. (General warning: Wikipedia is very poor on early modern literature.)

    There is no equivalent to Gretchen in Marlowe’s play – the only female character of any significance is the spirit Helen of Troy, who never speaks but contributes to Faustus’s damnation when, it is implied, he has sex with her. The two different versions of the play don’t suggest that Marlowe changed his mind about Faustus being damned – he is taken to hell  by Lucifer in both versions (his final hallucinatory soliloquy pleading in vain for one drop of Christ’s blood to redeem him is one of the most glorious speeches in all of English drama), but one version has him more literal-mindedly – and theatrically – being torn to pieces by devils.

    #32159
    Anonymous @

    @scaryb  I wasn’t engaging in Bonkers Theorising at all.  Not only that they basically show you much of what I said. That image is from the actual episode. I won’t discuss it here since it is for the spoiler area.  It wasn’t based on speculation, it was based on being in the know and knowing it’s a Sontaran..etc. And knowing that the episode has stuff going on in the background relating to another story in series 8. It’s not stand alone.  You can see some of this actually in the footage.  And perhaps another Sontaran. 🙂 But I will only discuss in the spoiler area which I did not know about at first. I should have looked better before posting.

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