The Magician’s Apprentice

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  • #43215
    lisa @lisa

    @Purofilion Regarding ‘not dead big surprise’
    So how is it that the Doctor knows he can send the confession device to Missy. He had to
    know she wasn’t dead. Something to do perhaps with that blue light when she was zapped off?
    Was that a clue for him? Well it was the same blue lights we saw again when Missy and Clara
    get zapped to death by the Daleks. Therefore, to my thinking they both survived.

    BTW, like how you tie ‘Into the Dalek’ into the current episode.

    #43216
    janetteB @janetteb

    The night shift have been busy… Lots of lovely bonkers theorising to catch up on over coffee this morning.

    @spider Your theory was suitably bonkers indeed. I agree that Missy and Clara are most likely dead as is the Tardis. In order to save them the Doctor must go back, undo his mistake, abandoning Davros and thus teaching Davros that compassion does matter. This will of course lead to a change in Dalek DNA which will mitigate somewhat their ability to achieve their goal, universal mastery and the extermination of all other races. It will not result in nice cuddly Daleks that bring your slippers to your feet and fetch in the mail but there will be a possibility of a Dalek being good.

    I don’t think Bors will stop the Doctor killing Davros mainly because it is too much a repeat of the ending of Death in Heaven with Missy and the Brig” not that that has stopped Moffat in the past. Also I don’t think the Doctor would even be seen (beyond one cliff hanger ending) to be contemplating killing a child. He abandoned a child but actually pointing a gun at a child is very different. I suspect the beginning of next episode will hit the viewer with a “how could you think that” moment.

    When time is re written hopefully Bors will be saved as well as Missy and Clara.

    @jphamlore that was a good point about the sonic. Davros however does not appear to recognise the sonic when he sees it in Genesis of the Daleks. (Does the doctor even have the sonic then? I have started re-watching but not got that far yet.)

    @ichabod I assumed that the Doctor did not know about Danny and the child however maybe Clara asked the Doctor to drop the boy back to the time of his death. After all a child returning to life after a few years is not really an issue, (as some of the ARSE fans claimed on other sites) when one has a time travelling mate.

    On the subject of Danny I can imagine Missy revealing to Clara that she killed Danny after all making a car appear out of nowhere to kill someone in order to get the Doctor’s attention would be entirely in character.

    Cheers

    Janette

     

     

    #43218
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    I personally believe the Tardis is programmed by a future version of the Doctor to do various magical things when they are needed, such as the door slamming shut in Journey’s End which eventually led to the short-term creation of the Doctor-Donna.

    I believe before he was diverted to Skaro, the Doctor was actually investigating the Weeping Angels, which is why he was headed to a particular bookstore, that of Sally Sparrow. Or perhaps it was another bookstore that had a book that had an interesting picture of a Weeping Angel captured on it. That is why the Doctor was traveling alone, to avoid another time accident with a companion. But the Tardis knew on this day, this hour, the Doctor had an appointment to see Boy Davros to get various things started.

    Everything is coming together in the Doctor Who universe to one giant unity. I speculate the Time Lords will never come back to this universe. They are forever in another dimension and can only communicate indirectly through dreams and visions. Madame Vastra is a shaman who use hallucinogens to induce an altered state of consciousness to communicate across time, space, and I speculate dimensions. Dr. Who can therefore mine an entire genre of modern ancient astronaut / New Age theory that contends that psychedelics enabled shamans past and present to communicate with spirits from other dimensions and obtain forbidden knowledge. The Time Lords are going to be those spirits. Some will be kind and helpful, guardian angels. And some will be corrupted and desire what they ought not to have, to rejoin this universe to enjoy the flesh. These will have a terrible end and will become another type of angel, Weeping Angels, a form of demon condemned to feed off the suffering of others through time distortions.

    #43219
    lisa @lisa

    for those of you that follow the viewer statistics I just read that the viewing
    broke records in the states! It also got great numbers down under. Its on
    Doctor Who News

    #43222
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    Mmm, there is a fair bit of moaning in The Other Place, but really a lot of positives as well. I’m glad to read people talking about their children really enjoying it. I love the mystery, and I would have as a child, but its good to confirm the enjoyment isn’t as tightly confined as some make out.

    Watched it again yesterday, and a couple of thoughts: Is there more to Davros’ presence there? What, as the soldiers ask him, is he doing on the battle field? I’m not saying SM isn’t quite capable of just leaving it with ‘he got lost’ but I wonder… the child actor is really good, isn’t he?

    Second thought- Missy and the daleks- is she just being The Master and attempting to switch sides- after all, she hasn’t turned good- or is she trying to save the Tardis? Killing off a few humans to prove a point is one thing, but she is a timelord/timelady (I’d prefer the title to be gender neutral, as well as Master, but then, she is evil…) and a tardis is- something else. Not only useful, but conscious, and one- maybe the last one- being destroyed by the Daleks might rankle. As for the Doctor- her ‘friend’- she’s seen him get over the death of companions (with a maybe to her eyes unnecessary sulking period) but Sexy?

    #43223
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    <span style=”color: #000000; font-family: Times New Roman;”>@jphamlore- and it was interesting to re-visit Davors’ motivation. Not that I want, particularly, to feel sorry for Davros, but some understanding is helpful. ‘it’s just- the war’, war for his entire life and probably generations before this. The Time War, for context, might have gone on for as long and probably longer but did not, as far as I know (?) encompass the Doctors entire childhood and early life. And it still drove him to pretty desperate measures. I think we’ll definitely revisit ‘you would make a good darlek’ with this proviso- he would, but he won’t. Just as the Claracle, the crazy daleks thought, would make a good dalek, in instead, made a dalek who was still good. </span>

    #43224
    ichabod @ichabod

    @phamlore  Wow, great saga there!  I like it very much!

    About Vastra — does she time-travel?  I think she started out a while back in some — caves on another planet?  And then fighting the Sontarans — she wouldn’t have a Tardis, but she sure did get around, and now seems anchored in Victorian London.

    #43226
    ichabod @ichabod

    @janetteb   I keep thinking about that, too — that Danny’s first death might be revisited and revealed to have been part of Missy’s larger plotting . . . Though in a way I hope not.  I do love the idea of Danny having a first death that’s just as meaningless as most of our accidental deaths seem to be, then being succeeded by a truly heroic death in DiH.  So Clara’s determination does bring about a great resolution for him, with a fine flourish to finish it — the return to life of the Afghan boy instead of his own return.  That’s a very fitting Karmic solution in its own weirdly Doctorish way, and it pleased me very much.  I know some see that as sentimental, but from a Karmic viewpoint, it’s a reasonable, elegant, and kind conclusion.

    #43227
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @ichabod In The Name of the Doctor, I interpret Vastra as basically acting as a shaman even using drugged vapors to get Clara from the 2000s to be able to attend the conference call from Victorian England. Then and after in the series it has been mentioned that time travel can occur in dreams.

    #43228
    Anonymous @

    I watched it a third time (already!) yesterday when it was replayed on TV, and my opinion swung up again this time.

    It really is very, very good overall. While I still dislike the seemingly unnecessary distractions and the needlessly over-dramatic or over-done moments of the first half (all the media of the world reacts in shock- shock!!!, the big Missy head, etc) I was more struck by how, despite the pace of the beginning, once you get to the end it doesn’t all feel squished in, it feels like you’ve been sitting there for longer than 45 mins and everything’s had its space. Even the bits I complained about are still obviously good (except for the big Missy head); and the beginning, the scene with Clara & Missy in the square, and everything from Sarff’s arrival in the amphitheatre onwards, is absolute gold. I spent more time watching Capaldi’s face closely, admiring how good he really is, which is not something I usually pay all that much attention to. Capaldi + Gomez + Coleman (+ Bleach) are a bit of a dream team. Especially brilliant is that second-to-last scene where Clara’s about to die- as I said earlier the Daleks are scarier than they’ve been for a long time as they turn on her, Davros’ “ecstasy” speech is perfect, you can feel the trigger-happy tension of the Daleks, and Capaldi’s “Clara?… my Clara?” just after he begs for mercy is so well done. Even if all this about a ‘death’ you know will be reversed, it doesn’t matter.

    See, now there’s some positivity!

    I suspect the Shadow Proclamation will reappear in the second part, just because it seems extraordinary to create that scene, bringing in the original actor (who seems to be a reasonably big name) and all, for less than a minute of (not strictly necessary) screentime. But who knows.

    #43235
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @janetteb

    I agree that Missy and Clara are most likely dead as is the Tardis.

    Missy and Clara possibly. As I said a while back, the fact that their skeletons showed briefly as they disappeared suggests that they may have been caught in the Dalek fire, whether or not they were using the vortex manipulators to shift themselves.  The Tardis is another matter entirely.  As @scaryb noted, the HADS (Hostile Action Displacement System) was almost certainly enabled – it is unlikely that the Doctor would have forgotten this under the circumstances – and she would have removed herself from the scene the instant she sensed herself under attack from an external source.

    As I noted in post #43169, the consequences of the Tardis being destroyed would be catastrophic, as indeed we saw in The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang.  At her core is what is essentially a star in process of going nova, held in stasis by what we must assume are some highly exotic forces.  The release of all that contained energy would fry everything within a radius of many light years, and this was only prevented in The Big Bang by the Tardis going into a loop which created a local suspension of time.  Even so, the explosion-in-stasis was enough to replace the sun when the rest of the universe disappeared.  Similarly, In Journey into the Centre, she created an internal stasis which temporarily prevented the explosion from extending beyond the core.

     

    #43239
    Anonymous @

    – When she enters the amphitheatre, Clara does the Danny Pink wave.

    – I’m sure someone mentioned thinking that there were a few aspects of the show that were similar in they way they were set out to BG Who or to theatre- Bors ruffling through things, easily finding the TARDIS, and announcing it to the camera; and having a completely plain room with some Daleks just milling about- I can’t find the post now. But along those lines, the entry to the amphitheatre scene, particularly Missy’s entry, felt very, very much like a theatre performance, walking onto stage.

    #43242
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @miapatrick – Hey! Great to see you back.  And thanks for picking up on Boy Davros’s line “‘it’s just- the war“. That line was just as chilling as “Davros” and “Exterminate” for me. At first I wasn’t sure if the soldiers were shocked that the child was on the battlefield, or that a child existed at all.  And agree with @ichabod it would be satisfying if there was a parallel with Danny’s saving the Afghan boy.  Hmmm.  You’ve got me thinking – maybe this is all a ploy by Davros to manipulate the Doctor into doing something.  Also – the Doctor isn’t present when the Daleks are exterminating. Like us, he’s watching on a screen. Even if we (cynical viewers) don’t believe they’re dead – the Doctor looks like he does.

    Agree with @supernumerary The Daleks are very, very creepy in that scene, you can feel the bloodlust. You’re shouting at the screen “DON’T RUN” when the usual command from the Doctor is “basically… RUN!” (They’re cats in tanks, LOL).  Likewise Davros is super-creepy when his usual raging hysteria is dialled waaay down.  And why is there such a mix-match of dalek eras? Is this the last remnants of their race, back on Skaro, or is there something else?

    Ha! Your Vastra as Shaman and Angels origin theory is intriguing.  I’m not sure if it was my post you’re thinking about but I did mention that the scenes that resonate are very traditionally theatrical in the best way, with tension ramping up between 2 cracking actors.

    Great spot on the Danny Pink wave. Love it.

     

    #43246
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb

    Even if we (cynical viewers) don’t believe they’re dead – the Doctor looks like he does.

    Yes, it’s always worth remembering that the characters don’t know that they’re in a TV series or that they have a contract for the whole of Series 9…
    😈

    #43247
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @purofilion and @denvaldron

    To put Who’s falling overnights into context:

    Downton Abbey also had a drop of 0.8 million. There’s some comment on how increasingly unreliable the overnights are becoming at the bottom of the article.

    #43248
    Kharis @kharis

    Well, most likely they are dead and a catalyst for the Doctor going back to save them, or Missy, who clearly survived last time by using her vortex manipulator, used it again and Clara’s was a slave to hers so off they pop when and where the crazy Mary Poppins decides.  Of course, then Clara would have vanished when Missy did.  So, dead.

    #43249
    stevethewhistle @steve-thorp

    Unless I have mised a comment, I don’t think that anybody has mentioned that whereas old- Davros has an eye in the middle of his forehead, boy-Davros desn’t. I think that this implies that the old-Davros and boy Davros may not be the same person (unless the third eye developes later in life, I am not an expert on Dalek anatomy.).

     

    It wasn’t until a rewatch that I realised that the tune that the Doctor introduced himself with was the Doctor Who theme. Duh!!! I wonder if this version will be used for the title music.

     

    With the parallel between boy-Davros and the boy that Danny saved, Maybe the plan is to rescue the boy and foster him to Clara.

     

    I thought that old-Davros was looking very weary after a lifetime of war, and it has occurred to me that this might be the start of an attempt to end the Time War.

    #43250
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @supernumerary: As the Shadow Proclamation seems the equivalent of an interstellar United Nations, it would not be surprising if the Doctor could “win” for the moment by finding a way to cut the Daleks down to size enough for the Shadow Proclamation to at least keep them in check. Missy mentioned the Daleks are running death camps which ought to violate some of the Shadow Proclamation’s laws. I think this is consistent with the Fourth Doctor’s belief that the Daleks existence could do some good if it inspired the creation of such an intergalactic United Nations.

    @stevethewhistle: Davros’ third eye is I believe an electronic one that replaces the function of his other ones since he is blinded. It would not be unexpected if the hand mines blinded him and even stole his eyes.

    #43251
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @bluesqueakpip @purofilion and @denvaldron

    The ratings may not yet be fantastic news in the UK, but it was a result in the US:

    http://www.doctorwhonews.net/2015/09/season-premiere-breaks-records-in.html

    #43253
    Whisht @whisht

    well – a bit late to the party and not much to add.

    Really enjoyed it and am still hoping for a face-off (well, snide bitch fest) between Misstra and Davros. Loved Bleech’s performance – tired yet far more evil and menacing than any hissing hench-snake-man.

    Not much to add to everyone’s thoughts. Loved the ankle-grabbing lhandmines (grabbing ankles again); loved “would you like some shade? I know how you humans burn” (Gomez is just awesome); enjoyed “which one of us is dying?” before the hug; and I just cannot think where I’ve seen the Doctor hop around and then proclaim about the gravity before, but I’m sure I have (trying to even remember which Doctor…).

    Only thing no one’s mentioned is the wedge shaped gap in the “confession dial” thing. Why would there be a piece missing? Is it actually not finished? Is it possible the confession is no longer strictly ‘factual’ (in that he changes Time)? Does someone else have the other bit which ‘finishes’ it? Is “it” actually a confession thing? When finished is it something else….? a key, or chameleon arch or Chekhov’s Duck?
    Anyone figured out what the Gallifreyan says..?

    But none of that is truly bonkers, so…. The planet they are on. Is it the Asylum of the Daleks? Is this why there’s a bunch of them from various eras together? Is that the time that they have travelled to…?

    (did I mention I really enjoyed this episode? 🙂 )

    #43254
    lisa @lisa

    @supernumerary The big box screen pop out of Missy you refer to
    when she is speaking with UNIT is actually something in a UK children’s show.
    Remember the Simms master liked to watch the Teletubbies. So my guess is that
    its a reference to the TV viewing tastes of the Master/Missy.
    ( Gee, I wonder what that might be?)
    But the younger viewers of the show would get that.

    #43256
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @lisa  And Delgardo Master watched the Clangers (and was beguiled into thinking that they were a fascinating, and genuine alien species).

    #43257
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Missy has also mentioned Earth’s ‘great telly’. 😉

    If Gallifreyan telly is all like the stuff we saw in The Deadly Assassin, though, it’s not surprising that our television one of the few things she finds impressive about Earth. If either Missy or the Doctor are ever looking for a nice little earner, they could probably start importing box sets once Gallifrey is officially re-opened.

    #43258
    lisa @lisa

    @whisht Yes the ‘CD’ – Been thinking its more than what it seems too.
    I think its interesting to think about it as unfinished. I think it has
    another use beyond what the name implies. Plus the fact that it was sent
    to Missy who was supposed to be dead? So the Doctor knew she wasn’t dead.
    That implies to me that he had seen her before the goings on of this episode.
    In fact to me it begs some questions about the Doctor plotting with Missy
    to execute this new plan. They both could have an agenda. The Doctor’s is to
    fix mistakes and Missy’s might be on behalf of the TL’s to attempt some damage
    control of the Daleks. In any case, Missy seems incredibly engaged in helping
    the Doctor which doesn’t happen to often (odd that?). And I don’t think she’s dead.
    Or Clara. They showed the blue light which I think is a transporter as opposed to
    the red light which would be death.
    I also have to wonder if a missing piece in the ‘CD’ will make it change.
    TL tech created many devices with strange functions, the Moment or Fob watches etc.
    I wait with enormous anticipation for part 2 🙂

    #43259
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @mudlark

    Clangers!

    Yes! I had forgotten that:

    #43261
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @lisa

    Of course, we only have Missy’s word that the CD player contains the Doctor’s last will and testament.

    And how much stock would one place in Missy to tell the truth?

    #43263
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Nice spot on the ankle grabbing @whisht, missed that. Suspect it’s an echo rather than significant, but it I like it.

    Didn’t spot the missing chunk on the CD player (of Rassilon) – will need to have another look… unless you’ve got a screen grab of it? Does the Doctor not also mention its function to Ohila (in the prologue)? Will need to check that as well. If it’s only referenced by Missy, then no, I wouldn’t trust a word of what she says, and my money would be on a “Chekhov’s Duck”* 😉

    Word on Sorcerer’s Familiar is that it’s at the very least up to TMA standard. Can’t wait. The trailer at the end of TMA is intriguing, not least that it switches to black and white. And what are the things lurking in the shadows..?!

    Aaaah, just love the Master and the Clangers, always good to see it.

     

    *copyright @bluesqueakpip, haha

     

    #43264
    Anonymous @

    @lisa – I knew the Master’s history with kids tv shows, but didn’t realise the big head might be referencing one. There you go.

    #43266
    Serahni @serahni

    @blenkinsopthebrave The Doctor does acknowledge the disc, however, when Clara questions him about where he sent it.  He doesn’t corroborate exactly what is on it but we at least know he sent it to Missy.  That’s a start. lol

    @whisht  There is an episode of Tom Baker’s with a yo-yo that deals with gravity.  I think it might have been The Ark in Space.  Did he also use it in Kill the Moon?  Trying to recall.  Can’t remember if he jumps around or not though!

    #43267
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    Weren’t the Doctor and the members of UNIT making references to Thunderbirds in Death in Heaven when the Doctor first boards the command plane? Then again apparently everyone makes references to Thunderbirds, in particular, the former Top Gear.

    #43268
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @bluesqueakpip Unfortunately Gallifreyan television is hobbled by the older generation’s nostalgia for when it featured the equivalent of the fights in the Roman Coliseum, with live broadcasts from the Death Zone.

    #43270
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @serahni

    Exeactly my point. Yes, he sent her the CD Player, but is it his last will and testament?

    #43271
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @jphamlore – yes, the Doctor called the Valiant ‘Cloudbase’ and there then resulted geek war between Osgood and Colonel Ahmed over whether Cloudbase was from Thunderbirds or Captain Scarlet.

    I suppose this could have been an incredibly subtle clue that Osgood was actually Zygon!Osgood. 😉 She got it wrong.

    One of my ‘wish list’ items is a scene with Missy watching In The Night Garden.

    #43272
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb

    If it’s only referenced by Missy, then no, I wouldn’t trust a word of what she says,

    True, but she’s pretty obviously struggling with a translation problem. First she calls the CD Player of Rassillon a ‘Confession Disc’. Then, when it’s obvious Clara has no idea what that is, she translates it as ‘Last Will and Testament’.

    ‘Will’ – instructions for the disposal of an estate – it contains the Doctor’s instructions for after his death.
    ‘Testament’ – ‘sign or evidence’ – the explanation of why he died and presumably of why his instructions must be followed.

    Anyway, it’s the explanation and instructions-to-be-followed. To me, the Chekhov’s Gun that is quacking is the ‘it will open on the Doctor’s death’. This disc will open. 😀

    I suspect another possible translation may be ‘Suicide Note’, but that probably was a no-no for a family show. However, the ‘Confession Disc’ being a Time Lord’s suicide note would certainly explain why Missy’s suddenly behaving as if she’s temporarily dropped the lethal games. She’s genuinely worried.

    #43273
    Anonymous @

    @whisht

    The old Doctor had an ep with gravity as @serahni mentions but I recall ‘hopping’ from Kill the Moon -as well as the yo -yo.

    @denvaldron, what do you think?  -thank you @bluesqueakpip for finding those stats. I think over-nights need to be placed in perspective:

    To put Who’s falling overnights into context:

    Downton Abbey also had a drop of 0.8 million. There’s some comment on how increasingly unreliable the overnights are becoming at the bottom of the article.

    @supernumerary

    I think there was a lot of metaphor and hidden allusions to the ‘1st act’ in the fair (with the Doctor) beyond some critics complaining that it was just an over-the top indulgence or “childish tripe” (I’m referencing unmentionables in the d’ place!).

    The hug with Clara and her quiet response to this was an important segue leading to a conversation with Missy. The opening theme of the Doctor mandated the arrival of all 12 doctors in that ‘act’  -he was acting on stage, breaking the 4th wall to speak to us personally and repeated, as you said, with the “stage” act requiring Bors to ‘discover’ the Tardis and Missy to enter with her ‘pretty woman’ theme.

    The Doctors’ statements to the crowd and his companions, I think, were quite significant beyond what some claim as an unnecessary “silly distraction.” There’s usually more to such ‘loud’ openers than what’s originally perceived.

    @lisa

    “also have to wonder if a missing piece in the ‘CD’ will make it change.  TL tech created many devices with strange functions, the Moment or Fob watches”

    Oh I agree: I think there’s more to this Confession Dial that meets one eye <*\->

    It could contain  info for TLs, info about Clara’s new role or Orson’s relations or even his actual name. There could be some reference to River’s final story (which I think was in The Name of the Doctor) -but I have no idea about that…I’m simply riffing what could be on the Dial.

     

    #43274
    DenValdron @denvaldron

    @purofilion In terms of the American ratings. Very positive, but not really surprising.

    As I’ve pointed out, I think that there’s been a concerted effort on the part of Moffat to push the show to an American and an international audience. The American breakthrough happened with Smith, and last year, there was a lot of effort to make sure that Capaldi hung on to that audience. This year, there was the international tour to places like South Korea, Japan, Latin America. There’s a concerted effort to internationalize the thing.

    That Renfaire scene, for instance, there were some really obvious call outs to Bill and Ted (Dude!) (Axes!) (Anachronisms!), and Back to the Future (Rock star cool riff).

    The interesting thing here is that assuming a genuine ratings blowout in America, you’ve got a lot of people for whom the Davros/Daleks backstory means nothing. They just don’t have the history with the show that many of us do. So they’re coming in blind. Davros says his name, the Doctor freaks out…. I think a lot of Americans may not instantly know what’s going on there, or how deeply anchored this is in the show’s mythology.

    So if you’re Moffat, what do you do? You’re starting your series with a really hot story, but it’s inaccessible to the casual American audience. So maybe the thing to do is hit some classic American time travel touchstones – the B&T and BtF, and go really really big and unconventional, just go three ring circus. Not a bad strategic choice.

    #43275
    DenValdron @denvaldron

    Just for the record, the fact that it didn’t work for me, doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate the attempt.

    Look at it like watching a virtuouso figure skater trying to do a triple pirouette, maybe the skater doesn’t quite carry it off. But you can still see what they were going for.

    Writing isn’t just ‘art.’ Writing is strategy and tactics, it’s setting goals, identifying targets, taking different approaches to different things. You get a set of tools, a format, a structure, a style, certain amounts of information, an audience and then you play it out for whatever you can.

    #43276
    lisa @lisa

    Another bonkers space cadet theory – So what if the CD a explosion or some weapon and
    the missing piece activates it? If I were Missy getting a weapon sent to her by the Doctor
    would really be extremely out of character? I bet that would get Missy worried!
    Ok, maybe it isn’t something the Doctor is prepared to use but he knows Missy could.
    It might some have instructions in it for her but I still think it has nothing to do with
    wills or confessions. That was Missy not telling Clara what it really is. Because she’s
    trying to win Clara’s confidence.

    #43277
    lisa @lisa

    Also, why is the device so protected when Clara touches it. I don’t know why
    its so important to use such extreme protections for a ‘confession dial’?
    I think we are being distracted from the real purpose of the CD

    @denvaldron The baby boomers ! Literally a huge group of fans
    that grew up watching the 4th Doctor on PBS in the states or Canada!
    We all know some backstory to some degree and bring along
    our kids into it. We were the first breakthrough long before SmithDoc.

    #43278
    DenValdron @denvaldron

    @lisa Possible. But what was the viewing audience of PBS back in those days?

    I tuned into Doctor Who through PBS. I donated money. I still have the mug. But it was hardly a mass market phenomenon back then.

    #43280
    janetteB @janetteb

    @whisht good spot re’ the hand. I thought that we were seeing the Doctor as a boy when that happened. Maybe that was an intentional parallel, the man who creates the monsters to destroy the universe and the man who saves the universe were both once frightened boys not dissimilar.

    Also I am sure there is a scene where Baker jumps up and down because I have a mental image of it, coat and scarf flying about, manic hair bobbing. Can’t recall which episode it was however. He certainly also uses the yo yo to test gravity and again I don’t recall when. (Actually may be the Zygon story.)

    @denvaldron Given that old Who is easily available and being repeated in the U.S. from what I hear I would expect that many viewers new to the show would tap into some of the older stories. In the end however a story must stand on its own and not rely upon background knowledge. It is difficult to judge how well the story does that for us hardened fans because we derive so much additional enjoyment from the references to older material. Moffat does seem to do a good job of ensuring that the story stands without knowledge of the backstory it references. For instance the first time we saw the Shadow Proclamation we had no idea what it really was other than something that had been occasionally referred to in passing and duly ignored by all but the most attentive viewer.

    Cheers

    Janette

     

    #43281
    janetteB @janetteb

    For what it is worth, (and I acknowledge that Australian viewing figures being modest at best are not worth much in comparison to those of the UK and US) Dr Who has been repeated in its entirety several times since 2003 with the exception obviously of the incomplete stories so our sons’ generation are very familiar with the backstory.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #43282
    ichabod @ichabod

    Gawd, it never occurred to me to doubt Missy when she identified the CD player of Rassilon as a “Confession Dial” and explained it as a Last Will and Testament.  Drat that Michelle Gomez!  She has one again pulled ze wooool over my eyes!  That there’s a slice missing doesn’t mean it’s been opened or broken into, apparently, but it could mean that a crucial portion of the Doctor’s “testament” (if that’s what a confession dial really is) has been removed and hidden or maybe just left somewhere . . . by the Doctor himself?  Cagey bastard . . . I’m assuming that you don’t need the slice to open the thing, since it won’t open until the Doctor is dead, and then it opens on its own; so why does it need to be defended, as @lisa says, from the wrong person’s touch, since nobody can get into it anyway until the Doctor dies and the dial opens itself?

    I’m betting it may be a will etc., but that it also has other, sneaker functions that have to be guarded from people who is not the Doctor’s TL “friend”.

    #43283
    ichabod @ichabod

    @janetteb  It’s even more difficult to assess a story told in two parts — without having seen both of them.  Word I hear is that TWF answers a lot of questions opened by TMA, and that it’s “better” than TMA, so . . . Agh. It’s not even *Wednesday* here!

    #43286
    Missy @missy

    All these speculations are very interesting. At least we’ll all know the answer, sooner or later.

    Missy

    #43287
    Missy @missy

    @ichabod Peter Capaldi is certainly the doctor for me too.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #43288
    Anonymous @

    @denvaldron

    Well said:

    Writing isn’t just ‘art.’ Writing is strategy and tactics, it’s setting goals, identifying targets, taking different approaches to different things

    Whilst I write chapters for history/music texts, as well as music -and the occasional annoying discography, I’m no real writer. I can see, though, the multiple arenas Moffat must ‘contain’ in  order to appeal to a wider audience.

    @bluesqueakpip  I hadn’t realised this, in  this context:

    “Testament’ – ‘sign or evidence’ – the explanation of why he died and presumably of why his instructions must be followed.”

    @lisa

    The baby boomers ! Literally a huge group of fans
    that grew up watching the 4th Doctor on PBS in the states or Canada!
    ….

    Again, somethg I wasn’t aware of: friends of mine who worked/studied in Canada when I was in Connecticut saw more Who than I did – but then my hrs were hellish and whilst say, Seinfeld was enormous in Oz, half the ppl/students new nought about it claiming, in their slightly snotty way that, “television was poison.”

    Came across a psychiatrist I had to work with many years ago who had emigrated to Oz and asked him if he still believed this. His response: “Oh yar, I shirley doh”

    Thank you to those who defined BTL (below the line)

    Kindest, puro

     

    #43289
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    Speaking of a generation gap, Davros has never really understood his children the Daleks nor perhaps they he. From the very end of Genesis of the Daleks until now, Davros has been caught between trying to correct their flaws while bragging to the Doctor how unstoppable they are. Actually at the end of Genesis of the Daleks, Davros was trying to push the self-destruct button before they seemed to turn their death rays on him. Curiously in the old series Davros was trying to introduce what might be flaws, first suggesting in Destiny of the Daleks that what the Daleks needed to do to was to program their battle fleet to deliberately make errors, while later contemplating adding more compassionate emotions if only to give the Daleks the ability to understand other species better.

    And what’s up in the newer series with Davros acknowledging the existence of a Supreme Dalek other than himself, although perhaps he could rationalize the newer Daleks were created from his own cells.

    It is quite believable to me that Davros could hand the Doctor the power to make or destroy the Daleks back at the dawn of their creation not caring what the outcome was, thinking he would win his argument either way.

    #43293
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @lisa  @purofilion  @ichabod

    Re the CD (of Rassilon):  I paused that scene to have a good look at the object, and I’m not sure that the black segment represents a missing piece.  The design on the surface consists of two concentric circles crossed by lines radiating in the manner of the lines on a sundial.  The black segment extends only to the outer of the two concentric lines, not to the rim of the disc, and when I saw it originally I took it to be another surface marking.  Perhaps  the inner concentric discs defined by the surface markings are designed to rotate independently within the outer rim, and the black segment functions as a pointer in relation to the radial markings, in order to open and to read different sections.

    In the glimpse we had of the disc which the Doctor handed to Ohila in the Prologue it did not appear to have any surface markings, which might mean simply that it was face down. But another possibility is that the markings have appeared because Missy has opened it. Or maybe it is not same disc and it is part of one of Missy’s scams, or a piece of misdirection by Moffat

    #43294
    Anonymous @

    @mudlark @ichabod @lisa

    very good! Yes,  you’re right: the black lines are not like a slice of missing cake. So perhaps there are two? One already given, and we assumed to Missy, but it was not? Rather it  was given to someone else?  Or as you suggest, one is in Missy’s possession, but this is not it and she’s squirreled it away?

    Could it have been given to someone to place in the Tardis? To protect it? What is the last Will and Testament could also affect the Doctor’s other friend or companion, the Tardis?

    Perhaps by slotting the dial in, the Tardis is protected from destruction? Perhaps the dial creates, by some function, another Tardis-like object?

    On Trenzalore, the Tardis duplicated: as energy leaked out, it became larger.

    I like how the Dr says “you know who to give it to” or, “you know what to do with it?”

    I do wonder that if you muck about with it, it might re-arrange itself. Like a disc ready to corrupt if it’s opened or forced at the wrong time, with seconds to go. Which could be exactly what the Doctor is counting on, as it were.

    It’s a dial and a clock face has a dial. Is it counting down to something: but not necessarily with the Doctor’s life?  The intros have lots of ticking clocks: and Clara was born under a clock somewhere (yep, I really need to let THAT go by now!)

    Mmm.

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