Time Heist

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    thommck @thommck

    @bluesqueakpip ahh so because the Doctor is aware he is in a loop he is able to maintain it.

    Mind you, it would have been easier if he went back in time and stopped Karabraxos capturing the Teller in the first place! Mind you, that would probably have much wider consequences e.g. A bank owned by the Teller creatures with a fearsome Karabroxos protecting it from within a glass tank 😉

    Brewski @brewski

    Well, so we now have the answer!

    The Doctor is going back into his own past to correct mistakes.

    The Woman in the Shop is Doctor 13!


    PhileasF @phileasf

    @thommck – I like the diagram. It matches my understanding of the episode.

    The phone number is in a ‘Moffat loop’, as the cast and crew apparently call it. Old Karabraxos phoned the Doctor. The Doctor time-travelled into her past and gave Young Karabraxos his phone number. Young Karabraxos became Old Karabraxos and called the number.

    Star Trek: Deep Space Nine coined the term ‘predestination paradox’ for this kind of thing. Possibly its earliest appearance in Doctor Who is in Day of the Daleks, where time travellers cause the very thing they were trying to prevent. IIRC, Stephen Moffat is in the Day of the Daleks DVD extras talking about how much he loved it as a kid.

    This idea has been a staple of time travel fiction for more then 100 years. The earliest example I know, and one of the best, is the short story ‘Enoch Soames’ by Max Beerbohm, which can be read (legally) for free on the internet. I recommend it as one of the best short stories ever. It almost out-Moffats Moffat. (My favourite bit is at the end, where the narrator seems to anticipate nitpickers, as if aware that someday there will be an internet, and painstakingly explains away the logic holes people might imagine they’ve found.)

    Another great example is in the novel The Anubis Gates by Tim Powers.

    That such ‘acausal loops’ can occur feels wrong, but some physicists speculate that they’re happening all the time at the atomic level. An event that apparently occurs routinely is the ‘spontaneous’ creation of a positron and an electron: they seem to be created out of nothing at the same point in space, then they briefly fly apart, and then, due to their electrostatic attraction as oppositely charged particles, they collide and annihilate each other. Some physicists have speculated that the positron is actually the electron travelling backwards in time, and that when we observe this electron/positron creation/annihilation, we’re really observing an ‘acausal loop’ in which an electron travels forward in time, then changes direction and travels backward in time.

    thommck @thommck

    Thanks @phileasf, some really deep insight there.

    I’m downloading that ebook as we speak 😀 http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/760

    wcasey5 @wcasey5

    What a great episode, Capaldi is making an excellent doctor IMO, and getting better all the time. As far as the paradox goes, it could be like the bill and ted key paradox, but also the Doctor didn’t have his memory restored before he gave his number so that kind of puts him in the clear, paradoxically. Something is going on with Clara’s memory, because the teller could latch on to the others and drain them. It met a block in the doctor and had to work through but couldn’t, or didn’t have enough time, with Clara, so I would suggest that’s why she was in the episode.

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave


    acausal loops

    Fabulous post. It is posts like that this make this site the brilliant place it is.

    Not much in the way of coherent thoughts from me yet–having only recently been released from the cellar, the light is still a bit overwhelming. But some reflections (albeit, not quite as brilliant as @phileasf) soon. Hopefully.

    Oh well, maybe just one now. Has anyone noted that the whole acausal loop in this episode is reminiscent of Moffat’s joke in his Comic Relief Doctor Who parody “The Curse of Fatal Death”?

    “I went back in time and bribed the architect to build the castle….” etc, etc.

    Rob @rob

    Afternoon All 🙂

    Hmm a few points to throw into the bonkers-kenwood-chef and beat with the “k”

    I am a time traveller is literally the phone number as phone are alphanumeric

    Psi got the Tardis phone number from the download he used to bait the Teller


    With the memory juice to reboot his circuits

    Also Kalbroxos may be living her life backwards just as River Song did and as an after thought the real one may actually be a clone and not know it

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @mudlark    I had completely forgotten the plot of The Abduction from the Seraglio, so all I can say is “wow”. I wonder what they thought the odds were that anyone would pick up on that?

    @thommck   Nice diagram, but no red arrows?  🙂

    @phileasf   That bit of physics is fascinating! The world of physics is really so much deeper than what I was taught in school– I bailed on the subject in Grade 9 because I just found it so mind-numbing, but between places like this forum and the Minute Physics videos my clever son sends me, I am getting re-educated!

    DrBen @drben

    @thommck – spot on!

    I’m perfectly ok with closed loops (or acausal loops as @phileasf so eloquently puts it) because I assume the Doctor has a more nuanced view of time and paradoxes than I do, and if creating one’s own time loop doesn’t bother him, it won’t bother me either.

    When I feel close to head-asplode time, I just think back to this exchange from “The Shakespeare Code”:

    MARTHA: But are we safe? I mean, can we move around and stuff?
    DOCTOR: Of course we can. Why do you ask?
    MARTHA: It’s like in the films. You step on a butterfly, you change the future of the human race.
    DOCTOR: Tell you what then, don’t step on any butterflies. What have butterflies ever done to you?
    MARTHA: What if, I don’t know, what if I kill my grandfather?
    DOCTOR: Are you planning to?
    MARTHA: No.
    DOCTOR: Well, then.

    chickenelly @chickenelly

    Following on from my popular *ahem* analysis that Robot of Sherwood was in fact Shrek in disguise, my latest thesis compares Time Heist with another family favourite :

    1) Clara with her face coloured in


    2) Psi in search of a missing part


    3) Saibra looking for that extra something

    4) Ms Delphox or her previous clones


    5) Director <span style=”color: #252525;”>Karabraxos</span>


    6) Ms Delphox instructing the Teller to find intruders


    7) The Doctor


    8) The architect revealed


    9) The Tardis returning the Doctor and Clara (& K9) back to the real world

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    OK – @juniperfish was quite right. I did enjoy it a lot more the second time around. It’s actually really well put together, and the idea of Doctor Who doing a heist movie is such a good idea, you wonder why no-one has really done it before.

    I’ll echo the praise @jimthefish gave to Douglas Mackinnon after last weeks Listen. His direction is great, even when he’s riffing on established tropes (the slow motion “let’s go to work” scene as they walk through the bank is a cliché, but come on – it still looked great). I pronounce him (at this early stage) the Nick Hurran of Series 8 (Hurran made a massive impact with The Girl Who Waited, God Complex, became SMs go-to guy for look, with Asylum of the Daleks, Angels Take Manhatten and inevitably ended up doing a spiffy job for the money in Day of the Doctor).

    The Teller is a great construction, and reminds me of some of the great animatronic work that Farscape did (and considering the excellent Jim Henson workshop was behind that, it’s a compliment).

    It’s probably been mentioned, but Psi and Saibra seem to represent the two of the underlying themes of the series so far. Psi, with his memory issues (and that was a great little scene, his “final” conversation with Clara prior to seeming to commit suicide) and Saibra with her identity issues.

    I actually ended up really liking them, and the scene at the end of the episode with them in the TARDIS actually made me want to see more of them. Hopefully, as @drben mentions, that may be on the cards. Like the Paternoster Gang, there is something engaging about them to me, and their powers seem like a gift for storytelling avenues.

    They may be rogues, but they’re the kind of rogues the Doctor has always had an attraction to. Perhaps it’s time for another random and purely spurious list?

    I don’t think it has the “holy crap” impact of Listen, but it’s a really good romp.

    Oh – and laughed my head off at some of the humour, especially about the calories in the TARDIS at the end. Who wouldn’t desire a guilt free environment?

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    Rogue’s Gallery

    OK, Time Heist introduced us to two new colourful rogues in augmented human Psi, and shape changing human mutant Saibra. To rob a bank. I’ve noted on other forums that the concept seems to have shocked a few people with very short memories, because the Doctor has always had an easy going relationship with a certain type of rogue. You know – the guys who live by a code, even if it’s not the one that’s entirely in vogue at the moment (in legal circles).

    Its natural enough I suppose. He’s a hero who nicked a TARDIS, and cheerfully ignored his own societies laws. He’s assembled his outfit from hospital locker rooms on no fewer than three occasions. He’s a rogue himself! Or a Marxist. All property is theft, and all.

    But who is the best, and where does this new pair figure in the grand scheme of things? Only one way to find out! Spurious list time!


    When the Fourth Doctor started on his quest to locate the Key to Time he forged an amiable (and competitive) relationship with Garron (Iain Cuthbertson), a swindler, charlatan and all round conman. It takes one to know one, as he identified similar traits in the Doctor. The story is a heist in itself, as they both try to obtain a rare stone, which is the first segment of the Key. Who is the better conman? I’ll let you guess.

    7.Lady Christina de Souza

    Michelle Ryan played the jewel thief and all-round bad-girl in Planet of the Dead. It divides people, but I though she was great, and her over confidence in herself a critical part of the character.

    6.Captain jack harkness

    People forget that Jack was introduced AS a co-man. He tried to pull a scam that went wrong. Had the right intentions to sort it out though. Maybe that’s the secret of being the kind of Rogue that the Doctor likes?


    OK – as I pointed out elsewhere – some Renegade Timelords are evil. Some of them are good. Some of them are dodgy wheeler dealers with even dodgier accents. Drax, who revealed to the Whoniverse that Theta Sigma was the academy designation for the Doctor appeared in the final story of the Key to Time sequence, The Armageddon Factor.

    Blessed with a cockney accent that he picked up in Wormwood Scrubs prison, Drax was a character whose allegiances shifted swiftly. After trying to con a true professional, he backed down and the old school (or academy) tie won through.

    4.Dorium Maldovar

    Didn’t we all love Dorium? Even being beheaded didn’t deflate him that much. SM must have kicked himself after making his end a bit too final, because he’s fricking hilarious in his trio of appearances. Alas, Dorium, someone who owes the Doctor is one of the few who really pays the price for his crimes (including selling River a Time Agents manipulator, with attached hand) by losing his head. He still continues to chew his ear though.

    3.River Song

    But who is the bigger rogue – the guy who sells the dismembered arm, or the gal who buys it? Her story was twisty turny, but here was someone who matched the Doctor. Of course she was a rogue – a bad girl. With a nod and a wink, she’d insult nazi’s and beguile the psychopath of her dreams.

    2.Sabalom Glitz

    Possibly the biggest rogue the Doctor has called a friend? The Sixth and Seventh knew him, and he was a bloke (as revealed in DragonFire) who SOLD HIS OWN CREW for bodyparts. Played with swaggering amiability by Tony Selby he was more than a bit of git. He knew it, you knew it – the Doctor knew it.

    Glitz paid for his crimes though. Oh yes.

    At the end of Dragonfire Mel (Bonnie Lanford) left the Doctor (hurrah!) to rehabilitate Glitz. Poor bugger.

    1.Absolom Daak

    Those who have seen the mentions of Absolom by @wolfweed and others and who have no clue who he is/was deserve a tutorial. A chain-sword wielding psychopath from the future, he’s convicted of crimes too naughty to mention.

    Sent through a void to his sentence to be a DK – a Dalek Killer, he kills, falls in love and suffers loss. He befriends people, including a taskforce including an ice-warrior, a Sontaran, and a Draconian.

    He wages war on the Daleks and eventually meets a small Scottish accented man (that’s the First Scottish Doctor) and fights them again to, what for him, is a logical conclusion.

    Daak is a great part of Who history for those who grew up with him. Possibly mad, positively insane, and his hatred of the Daleks only matched by the Doctors. You’ll allow us old un’s a fanboy squeal at his mention, I’m sure. It’s worth seeking out his story which has been collected many times.

    Oh – and just a mention, Star Tigers, his second story featured possibly the first mention of a clockwork droid! Clickbrain.

    If you have been deeply traumatised by having your favourite rogue missed from this selection, I’ll assure you that you can add yours below!

    soundworld @soundworld


    I am a time traveller is literally the phone number as phone are alphanumeric

    I just had my second viewing – he writes something (presumably the tel no) on the paper, folds it over, then writes ‘I am a time traveller’ on top of the folded over bit.

    I’m sure Psi has the number too since Dr was doing the ‘phone me’ gesture, but I’d tend to think the Dr has just slipped the number to him.

    Definitely a good romp 🙂

    DrBen @drben

    I’m confused — doesn’t he do the “call me” gesture at Karabraxos, not Psi?

    soundworld @soundworld

    Yes, but at Psi also before his farewell

    wcasey5 @wcasey5

    He does the “call me” to both.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @juniperfish – hope you’re feeling better?

    As far as I can work out, the Doctor’s Grandchild Stakes are:

    Clara: the favourite – pros are that she’s very similar to the Doctor in many ways. Cons: two – the whole ‘boyfriend’ thing and the fact that the TARDIS really doesn’t like her.

    Danny Pink: bit of a late entrant, but his background (Creepy Children’s Home) is similar to River’s (and possibly to the Doctor’s). He also fits the ‘traumatised ex-soldier’ model, and is proud of the work he did saving people.

    Courtney: the outsider. Two things made me wonder about her: firstly she says Clara’s face is too wide. Then a few scenes later the Doctor says Clara’s face is too wide. Secondly, she’s been introduced in very much the same way as Susan was. She’s the pupil that two teachers at Coal Hill keep thinking about and discussing. Courtney, like Susan, even gets to star in her own flashback.

    Courtney could simply be a shout-out to An Unearthly Child; the teachers who are/may be the Companions are, this time around, discussing a very Earthly Child. Every school has a Courtney.

    But we’ve now got our cast members from the original show. One female teacher, one male teacher, one pupil and the Doctor.


    Somewhere way back when (I can’t be more precise than that, but I think around the time of Name of the Doctor, and prompted by the last exchange between The Doctor and River) I concluded that Clara is probably their daughter (and therefore Susan’s mother).

    Just putting that out there…

    RIVER: Oh, there’s one more thing.

    DOCTOR: Isn’t there always?

    RIVER: I was mentally linked with Clara. If she’s really dead, then how can I still be here?

    DOCTOR: Okay, how?

    RIVER: Spoilers. Goodbye, sweetie.</span>

    Anonymous @

    @chickenelly – Hilarious stuff!!! I can’t believe it all fits. There is one more Scarecrow and Tinman steal the guards uniforms too. 🙂

     @PhaseShift – TY for the Absolom Daak tutorial. I had no idea who people were talking about. But now, I have a new choice for returning characters. Please! Bring Back Absolom Daak!!!

     Perfect job on your Rogue Rankings.

     There is a good chance that Psi will be back, especially after the Doctor’s “call me” at the end of the episode.

     @PhileasF – Great post with a lot of undeniable evidence.  So I have to agree the SM probably does intend to create a “Moffat Loop”.

    What is so cool to me is, the writers or SM seem to always leave a bit of an escape hatch – i.e. Psi knows the Dr’s number – for people who want another explanation. I love that and don’t think that is by accident either. Sometimes you have to stretch to piece it together, but that is Ok to me.   So I always seek out the alternative explanation held together by dental flaus and bubble gum.  😉


    the Big Bang is a singularity, a point where everything known breaks down and nothing can be known.  Perhaps a point where anything can happen.

    Nicely put. That is a very Whovian idea. I like it.  🙂

    Anonymous @

    @pedant that would explain Clara’s ability to ‘cope’ inside the Dr’s timeline without being ripped into tiny pieces and shredded about like leaves upon the wind.

    It suggests she receives an almost genetic ability to show compassion (if you’re into the nurture or nature theory) and also explains the phrases belonging to other Doctors she’s ostensibly or unconsciously collected.

    On the other hand, Clara doesn’t seem to me to be a ‘time-head’ like River but Susan  -with her outstanding knowledge of Science was astonishingly progressive. I keep forgetting that Susan’s story whilst ‘finished’ by Hartnell’s Doctor in one sense, was left incomplete and it’s possible she’s somewhere… In her purse is grandfather’s phone number…?

    janetteB @janetteb

    The character of Susan is a narrative gold mine. We were told so little about her and all those unknowns, ie can she regenerate, who were her parents, why did they leave Gallifrey, what becomes of her, are all waiting to be explored. For someone as detail, obsessed as Moffat then I am certain that he has often thought of Susan. Another theme of Time Heist, is family. Psi has lost his memory of those who cared for him and of his family. The creature is being manipulated through family affection, Saibra is alone, without family like the Doctor though I must he is definitely taking on the Grandfather role with Clara which gives @pedant‘s suggestion some weight but there is still that Christmas Day snog which would indicate no close relationship between them. There do seem to be a lot of missing parents, Clara’s mother, Danny Pink’s parents. @bluesqueakpip. It occurred to me too that Courtney might be Susan.

    I rewatched Time Heist this morning and thought of several things to say but after then watching an entire First Scottish Doctor story with a sniffly teenager I have forgotten. I will have to rewatch tomorrow and make notes.

    @phaseshift. The Rogue’s Gallery was excellent. At times the Doctor needs the help of friendly rogues because they can commit deeds that he can’t. Another one who comes to mind is the big game hunter in Dinosaurs on a Spaceship.



    nick1235 @nick1235

    @Iamnotafishiamafreeman hope i get your name right. It was at Trenzalore, Name of the Doctor, When Clara stepped in to the Doctor. Wait. If Clara is their daughter, what about Jenny (11th’s doctor) made in the battlefield. She’s able to regenerates and was seen escaping the battle after it ends.

    Anonymous @

    @nick1235  I just have a feeling that Jenny won’t be back yet, for years. I know this is apropos of nothing, but I never really liked her -terrible of me really. She was probably wonderful; maybe it was the episode I didn’t really like?

    @janetteb “a narrative gold mine” for Susan. Well put.  And as others up thread have said, Courtney could well be Susan -yes, the “wide face” comment, the fact she’s in Pink’s conversations with Oswald (thought I’d go all surname on people); her position in the first episode and the smart and somehow knowing (but still student-cheeky) “you wish” retort makes me wonder too.

    But if SM brings back Susan ‘Foreman’ (foreshadowed in the Day of the Dr on the ‘board) then he could bring back Jenny, I guess. So Susan was ‘before man’ and Pink was “at the very end of the universe” where the Dr wanted to be the ‘last man standing’?

    Mudlark @mudlark

    @arbutus  Re Abduction from the Seraglio: just in case you are attributing to me an expertise I do not possess, I am bound to confess that  my knowledge of music is patchy at best.  In this instance I recognised the piece as by Mozart and suspected that it might be significant, but I had to do a bit of searching to identify it.  Once the identification was confirmed the rest was easy, because Abduction from the Seraglio happens to be one of the Mozart operas I have seen, albeit many years ago in a BBC televised production, and I recalled enough of the plot to see how appropriate it was!

    janetteB @janetteb

    @Purofilion I agree that Jenny is not likely to return in the near future. Moffat did imply that he did not want the Character saved because he had plans for her but because she was a narrative “opportunity” for future writers. Jenny, when and if, she does return may well be in another regeneratio and, hopefully, older and wiser. Jenny’s ability to regenerate however implies that it is a genetic trait rather than a time lord gift which means Susan would also have the ability to regenerate and so would outlive David and potentially be looking for a means of returning to the Doctor and Gallifrey. Of course it is still very much in the power of the show runner to determine just what the rules of regeneration are at this stage. 50 years and still so many unanswered questions…



    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    The character of Susan is a narrative gold mine.

    Agreed. The continual fascination with Susan shows one main point – her story feels unfinished. Leaving with David wasn’t an ending – it was the beginning of a new kind of life. Romana and Jenny both have the same sort of feeling.

    They’re the characters the fans think could come back – and because we know they could, we keep speculating whether they will.

    There’s also a technical reason for the fascination with Susan: at some point, every keen watcher of Doctor Who checks out ‘An Unearthly Child’ and wonders ‘what happened to the granddaughter?’

    janetteB @janetteb

    @bluesqueakpip Agreed. Romana and Jenny are also characters with the potential to return but I think we are more interested in Susan because she is linked to the Doctor and because she was with him in the beginning and as you say, most keen fans watch the first episode, even if they don’t follow through with the rest of the BG stories.



    thommck @thommck

    I’m not sure if I go for “Courtney = Susan”

    Although I’m sure a lot of fans (me included) would like to get an appearance from her I don’t actually want her to become a regular companion. If it turns out she was a regenerated Courtney then it is a bit bizarre she goes to school still! Presumably she could find the Doctor if needed, she doesn’t need to hang around Coal Hill waiting for him to show up.

    When (not if) we do meet Susan again it surely has to involve Carole Ann Ford, either for a flash back or a full blown regeneration.

    Courtney would be too similar along the “Mels”-River Song path

    I only just found out she returned to the show in subsequent episodes, am I correct in thinking the last was The Five Doctors? How was she left then?


    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Still catching up, and I have undoubtedly missed this, but has there been any discussion of whether Susan was the woman in the shop who gave Clara the phone number? (which would be a nice way of bringing Carol Ann Ford back)

    Also, I am not conversant with the Who novels (and therefore I am ignoring them in terms of canon) but since it has now been established that not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords, then am I correct in concluding that Susan was not necessarily a Time Lord? After all, just because she was related to the Doctor does not have to mean she was a Time Lord, yes?

    Of course, the point of that reflection escapes me at the moment. Time for more coffee.

    DrBen @drben

    I think it’s entirely possible that Susan could be The Woman In The Shop.  After being left behind, Susan could have found her way back to Earth in the 60s, and simply come the long way round (or rather, for her, a short cut).  Therefore, for her, it hasn’t been another 1500 years since her grandfather left her, but only 50 years.  That way, Carole Ann Ford could play her again — perhaps she’s not 100% Time Lord, and therefore ages more like a human?  Perhaps she’s working in a shop, recognizes Clara from the time Clara told her and the Doctor to take the other TARDIS, realizes something weird is happening, and gives her his phone number.  Just imagine when he finds out who it is!  Similar to School Reunion, I suppose, but with the familial angst cranked up to 11.  (Or 12, as the case may be.)

    And then a regeneration scene for Susan at the end, and the Doctor gets an entirely new companion!


    Serahni @serahni

    Hmmn, I’m probably late to the party but I notice a few comments about the Teller’s attempt at reading Clara and, though I hadn’t thought much about it at the time, it does make for interesting theories.  I’ll have to watch the scene again but I suppose you could just pass it off as her being a rather unique individual, disjointed and scattered into all those Claricles.  Who knows what’s locked deep in her psyche, little tidbits that she doesn’t quite remember but can’t quite forget.  It does make me think too, though I don’t know if I’m a fan of the idea or how it would all work in, that a chameleon-locked Timelord would probably confuse the Teller too.  It does really feel like we’re meant to find out something about Clara by the end of this series and I am still wondering if their hush-hush on whether or not Jenna is leaving is because she is but Clara isn’t.  If there really is a family connection in all of this, we may have a regenerating companion on our hands.

    DrBen @drben

    @blenkinsopthebrave – Jinx!  Here’s your Coke.


    thommck @thommck

    @blenkinsopthebrave, I’m pretty sure as soon as the “woman in the shop” was first mentioned in The Bells of St John we were all jumping up and down saying it must be Susan!

    It was then strengthened as a possibility when Clara said “So that’s who” when reading the “Time War” book in Journey to the Center of the Tardis and again in Day of the Doctor when she lingered at the photo of Susan in UNIT’s Black Archive

    Serahni @serahni

    @blenkinsopthebrave  I was actually just thinking the same thing.  It might have been in the mysterious book from my childhood that I will get when I’m home over Christmas and reread, but I actually always assumed Susan wasn’t a Time Lady.  She’s certainly Gallifreyan and was very clever but I don’t know if it was ever established that she actually had a regeneration cycle.  As per the end of Listen, it seems that Time Lords and Ladies attend The Academy in order to bear the title, so it’s entirely possible that Susan didn’t attend, or may even have left with The Doctor before she was able.

    Serahni @serahni

    @thommck  Susan has definitely been dangled in front of us.  I was almost sold on the idea that Clara’s mother was Susan and that Clara’s been chameleon-locked since birth for her own protection or something but, as much as that sounds nifty, I also struggle to make it fit.  Does that mean her mother didn’t die but regenerated?  Did Susan just sort of disappear into the background?  Did Clara’s father know he’d married an alien?  There’s something about it that seems off.

    So how about Susan being Clara’s daughter instead!  In keeping with what I said before, about it not being clear that Susan actually is a Time Lady, and given that Clara is now bouncing around all inside the Doctor’s timeline as far back as his childhood, is it inconceivable that Clara’s daughter might be delivered to Gallifrey to be raised and kept safe?  I can’t decide if the timey-wimey stuff is too bonkers but, since this is Who, I’ll just assume not!  I don’t know why this would happen, mind you, I think I’m just determined that Clara be related to her in same way.

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave


    Yes, of course. There must have been a memory worm with me in the cellar.

    Mind you, when the Doctor mentions the woman in the shop and says: “we still don’t know who that was”, it was a perfect opportunity for Clara to look at him and say: “well, actually…” but she didn’t.

    Hmm. Now I am questioning my previous reflection. Obviously time for still more coffee.

    nick1235 @nick1235

    @purofillion She’s probably a back-up girl? I mean, she’s don’t do much in the episode and has really really low impact on how the story goes. But nevertheless, I think she’s more like of a back-up plan if Moffat starts to run out of ideas ( dont know if that’s possible ), good call on him to bank a character and banish it for a while XD

    DrBen @drben

    @blenkinsopthebrave – But if the Woman in the Shop is Susan at 65 and the picture in the Black Archives is Susan at 15, Clara wouldn’t necessarily have put two and two together yet.  Could have just been “she looks familiar…”  And I think we’ve established that, while Clara remembers some of what happened in Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS (the “impossible girl” conversation), she doesn’t remember the details of what she read in The Book.  When Vastra asks Clara the Doctor’s name in Name of the Doctor, she doesn’t know it, despite having read it in The Book.

    So there’s no reason for her to have said “so actually…” this week.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @serahni – not bonkers at all, since it’s now been very carefully established that the TARDIS can return to Gallifrey, if it’s to an earlier point in the Doctor’s timeline.

    Incidentally, about Clara – we all seem to be ignoring an important piece of data. The TARDIS doesn’t like her. Still doesn’t like her, in fact. She bit Clara when Clara had to use the telepathic circuits.

    Is this due to the timeywimeyness of all the Claricals, or does the time machine know something we and the Doctor don’t?

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave


    I seem to recall running with the idea that Clara was the daughter of the Doctor and River, and therefore Susan’s mother, way back when Clara first appeared. I also recall being quite excited by the idea at the time, until it was shot down with devastating logic by those far more clever than I.

    Although, for the life of me, I cannot remember what the counter-argument was.

    But there is still something emotionally appealing about the idea.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    shot down with devastating logic

    Was that me? Devastating logic is kind of my thing. 😉

    If so, I can’t remember it either. 😀

    Brewski @brewski

    Hey all!  I gotta say I’m a little surprised I didn’t yank any chains when I suggested that the Woman in the Shop was the next (and first female) Doctor. May have reached my bonkers threshold.

    Also, has anyone considered the even wackier notion that Susan is Jenny’s daughter?

    The first Doctor may have known she was his granddaughter by DNA but not where she came from. Until he met his “daughter” some time in the future.


    wcasey5 @wcasey5

    @serahni I agree something is up with Clara’s memory and the teller. I think that the mental block will be a plot point down the road. They may even have to visit the teller to unlock her brain, or Psi. Could have something to do with all the Claricles (there is a slight possibility that Rusty is one in my mind, could be totally wrong).

    So as far as genealogy goes, and this is a total WAG, Clara is the Doctor’s and River’s child, Susan could be Clara’s and Danny Pink’s child (she could have used Foreman like the Doctor uses Smith), and Orson (Awesome) is Susan’s child……  Maybe.

    As far as regeneration’s go, River got her regenerative power  from being conceived on the tardis, Doctor 12 got his new regenerative power given to him through the crack, so it seems to be something associated with being a time lord, but it is an accoutrement for the position rather than a part of being Gallifreyan.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @wcasey5 – I’d say that River’s ability to regenerate shows the opposite; regeneration isn’t confined to Time Lords. What does it is exposure to the Time Vortex.

    In which case, Susan can probably regenerate. While she may not be an official Time Lord, she travelled through the Time Vortex quite extensively. If she’s the Doctor’s biological granddaughter, she also has the right genes. Put the two together and – regeneration.

    Which is so natural to little Melody, she can manage it as a child.

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Hmmm right had a few of bonkers thoughts sparked by the discussion on whether Susan susan has the ability to regenerate or is an ordinary gallifreyan. I apologise if this has already proposed but i thought I would get it off my chest so to speak.

    1. the Master said in the episode Sound of the Drums, i think it was, that timelords were exposed to the untamed schism of the time vortex in a ceromony on gallifey.

    2. Melody Pond/ River Song was given timelord like regenerative powers by her exposure to the time vortex when being concieved in the tardis.

    Now this third piece of information I am not too sure of its canonisity.
    3. I seem to remember but I think it was in a good man goes to war, the doctor saying that the gallifeyan timelords developed the ability to regenerate in response to exposure to the time vortex on gallifey.

    Now given these facts it came to mind that Susan could have developed full regenerative abilities by her gallifreyan heritage being exposed to the time vortex during her travels in the tardis.

    The other and this is a more bonkers thought could Clara be susan chameleon arched. Yeah I know this is proberly so far off base but it could explain how she survived being in the doctors timestream in the first place.

    Feel free to play with these thoughs 🙂

    oops looks like others had some similar thoughts whilst i was typing this

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Can Susan regenerate? Possibly.

    Should Susan regenerate? Probably not.

    What I mean by this is that while it is firmly established to generations of viewers of the show that the Doctor and the Master can regenerate, I am not sure that Susan is a character who is established firmly enough in the mind of the casual (or brand new) viewer to be able to be accepted as Susan if played by a different actress.

    Moffat is pretty clever at balancing the desires of the committed fans with the neccessities of telling a story to a viewer with little knowledge of the history of Who. So, while it is entirely possible for him to refer to, or even bring back, Susan, I am less convinced that a different actress could carry it off. When he tried it with Mels, the response was lukewarm, to say the least.

    So, for these reasons, I think we are left with two possibilities: either, he brings back Carol Ann Ford one last time for a touching farewell that links the characters (yah!) or he simply drops Susan as a character in the ongoing story of the Doctor.

    wcasey5 @wcasey5

    What if the trip back to the Gloucester children’s home WAS about Clara’s past? Like she was there but was too young to remember?

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    I am not sure that Susan is a character who is established firmly enough in the mind of the casual (or brand new) viewer to be able to be accepted as Susan if played by a different actress.

    Clearly, what we need is John Hurt in drag. 😉

    John Hurt in drag

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave


    Now that should really have been Crazy Captions #89

    “The Whore Doctor” perhaps?

    Anonymous @

    I definitely don’t want this WitS theory to be true, but after Time Heist and Moffat’s affinity for Time Loops it seems likely.

    Old Clara is the WitS.  Old Clara gives Young Clara the Tardis number.

    The paradox is actually Clara.
    Young Clara couldn’t have called the Doctor without getting his number but Old Clara  couldn’t have got his number without calling him!

    @blenkinsopthebrave – Glad you are back.  That would have been a great Crazy Captions, but I don’t think anyone could have topped yours.   😆

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