Time Heist

Home Forums Episodes The Twelfth Doctor Time Heist

This topic contains 247 replies, has 57 voices, and was last updated by  Missy 5 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #32495
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @blenkinsopthebrave        Aaaanndd… he’s back.   As the young ‘uns say:  Made of awesome.

    #32496
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @handles     Excellent parallel. That’s actually a solution I could accept (although I agree that it might be a bit anticlimactic!).

    #32497
    Serahni @serahni

    Am I just imagining things when I think that it’s been hinted at that The Doctor had a wife and children back on Gallifrey at once point in his early life?  I cannot remember for the life of me why I think that, my brain isn’t so great at remembering details or where they come from.  If that’s the case, and I think it’s been touted before, might Clara be his wife?  Would make Susan her granddaughter too.  I like a lot of the other theories, emotionally if not logically, but I am still left with the uncomfortable feeling that The Doctor flirted horrendously with his own daughter at some point if I subscribe to them. LOL.

    #32498
    janetteB @janetteb

    Jenny also appears to have the ability to regenerate so that implies that it is genetic. All in all I think that the rules of regeneration are not yet fully established.

    I would not want Susan to return as a companion but would like the Doctor to encounter her, to resolve her story and that could certainly involve a regeneration though I agree Carol Ann Ford would be required to introduce the character.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #32499

    @serahni

    hinted at that The Doctor had a wife and children back on Gallifrey at once point in his early life?

    Not so much hinted as stated, since he an away with his granddaughter.

    #32500
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant – being a pedant myself, I have to point out that having a definite and genuine granddaughter does not necessarily involve a wife and child on Gallifrey.

    Not when you have a time machine and a Moffat Loop to hand. 😉

    #32502
    Anonymous @

    @drben – We just have a different idea of “paradox”.  To me Blink and the creation/existance of the cracks are not paradoxes.

    I know Moffat Loops are his staple, he is my favorite writer of all time (and I don’t like Time Loops  😉 ).  Other than The Big Bang, he always gives me a way out of his loop, it is so cool how he does that.

    #32504
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @handles @janetteb

    Glad you enjoyed the collection of Rogue’s ;-).

    @handles, I meant to put links to the graphic novels (if you want to know more about the comics universe, which is very engaging, try @wolfweed s excellent blog, and there are some documentaries I linked to in the Faces strand).–

    Absolom Daak – Dalek killer collected.

    Nemesis of the Daleks (which features contributions by Paul “Family of Blood” Cornell)

    @janetteb

    I did consider Riddell from Dinosaurs on a Spaceship because, you’re right, Rupert Graves definitely played it with a lot of roguish charm, but sadly had to conclude he wasn’t apparently guilty of any crimes for his time. I also considered Vorg from Carnival of Monsters, who was on the dis side of the reputable scale, but decided no in the end.

    Oh, and I didn’t notice @lisa had already made a comparison to Farscape’s own bank heist in Season 2 (as always – well worth checking out).

    #32505
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @serahni

    It seems to me Clara’s reaction to The Teller, and her struggle with the TARDIS last episode is continuing the business that we had in Series 7. Is Clara a “normal” human? There are plenty of indications that she’s got a little extra something.

    In Asylum of the Daleks Oswin manages to resist the Dalek Conversion by forging her own mental reality and resists/conquers the Dalek telepathic Pathweb.

    In Snowmen, the Claricle follows the Doctors instructions to imagine the Snowmen (telepathic snow) melted, and even he looks massively surprised by how rapidly it happens.

    In Rings, she senses the TARDIS doesn’t like her, and her memories / regrets of times unfulfilled win out where the Doctor failed.

    In Hide, the Professor is a mirror character for the Doctor, and the empath for Clara. It’s noticeable that one of the psychic “hot spots” in the house becomes active after she runs through it.

    Clara is shown to care a lot about people in all her forms (Entertainments Officer, Nanny, Teacher) and is astonishingly good at reading/gauging people.

    Personally, I think she’s a latent empath/telepath, hence her diverting the TARDIS into other people’s timelines when she thinks about them while linked. There is a long history of humans with these abilities in Who (as Hide helpfully reminded us) stretching back to Pertwee’s Planet of the Spiders (and it’s notable that Hide had a Blue Metabilis crystal from that story).

    @bluesqueakpip rightly pointed out in a thread on the last series that Susan had these powers as well, but I honestly don’t think that’s on the cards. Mainly because Susan’s story has continued in Big Finish Audio. I don’t think that’s insurmountable, but it would be unusual to discount something in spin-off media that’s an ongoing franchise for the BBC.

    I do think that this question of her potential powers is beginning to re-emerge though and I think I may rewatch the other stories in 7b when I get the chance to see if there are additional hints.

    #32506
    FlirtingDinosaur @flirtingdinosaur

    I’ve been away and haven’t yet had time to catch up on all the your thoughts on the episodes. But I’ve managed at least to catch up on your post reg. Time Heist.

    First of all I am in need of a rewatch, but still I wanted to share some of the mummbels inside my head. I liked the episode, although I think it’s not the strongest so far this season. Listen was much more creeping up my neck then the Teller. Also as lots of you I’ve figured out the identity of the Architect about half way through. I expected Psi and Sabre (?) to popp up in Missys Heaven, but was pleasantly surprised for them to not be dead at all. To otherwise fully make up my mind, as I said, I will need a rewatch.

     

    @spider the tank also reminded me of children of earth. I half expected vomit to come flying in the Doctors direction.

    also i agree. with his 2000 years of life, and all the things he has done and seen, there must be an enormous amount of guilt in him (also even things he feels guilty about, that were not his fault/intention i.e. when he destroyed satalite 5 and left earth in a stillstand / all the oods he failed to save..) Certainly there must be more guilt in his head then in Claras. Unless she has gathered lots of guilt between her Clarnicals? Or some other thing we don’t know about yet??

     

    @phileasf I love your theory of saving everyone. Although it be a slightly boring adventure for the future Doctor to go back an get everyone out, it makes perfect sense in regard to the Time Heist, as in: giving them teleports instead of suicide-shredders because he won’t be able to go back for them in the TARDIS. But then again, the Heist was planed by the future Doctor, surley he’d think of an escape plan that is above simply letting his accomplices die (even if he’s not on a tour-back-in-time to safe everyone).

     

    @melville I’m not sure if you mean we never got to see what was in the vault for the Doctor, or what would have been his greatest desire, if there was something in the vault for him. Because I think there never acctually was a thing waiting for him. There were rewards in the vault for Psi and Sabre but for the Doctor and Clara the reward was saving a species from extinction. But if I missunderstood you, my bad ;D

     

    About the ‘call me’ sign to Psi, I thinks, as has been mentioned by someone above (don’t remember who, my apologies), that it meant ‘I’ll stay in touch’ in case he wants to rob another bank rather then ‘call me’. so he woudn’t need to have the Doctors number.

     

    @serahni  I got the same feeling about the Doctor and a family on Gallifrey (or anywhere, acutally).

    When they met his DNA-daughter Jenny he told Donna (was it Donna, I think so..) that he’s been a father before.

    And in the story of the empty child an acutal medical doctor sais ‘before the war I was a father and a grandfather, now I’m neither. But I’m still a doctor.’ and the 9th Doctor replies with ‘I know the feeling.’ So I always assumed he once had an acutal family. But maybe someone with more pre-war-Doctor knowlidge could clearify??

    s

     

    #32508
    janetteB @janetteb

    @flirtingdinosaur good to have you back.

    There have been numerous references to the Doctor having family in AG who but none as far as I am aware, other than the presence of a granddaughter in BG who. I think that family and backstory were not really of interest in the past. The reason Susan was written in as the Granddaughter was early sixties morality. It was thought too riske to have an old man travelling with a young woman in a confines of a blue box. There was much debate among fans as to whether Susan was indeed his granddaughter or if “Grandfather” was just a curtesy title. Plenty of fans seemed to want the Doctor to be an asexual being, who was “above” all that family nonsense. AG Who writers have established that the Doctor did have a family implying that Susan was indeed his granddaughter. The Doctor alluded to having had children more than once before he met River which also suggests that she was not the partner in that family, though it is entirely possible that there were offspring of their relationship. Now that would really, really upset some of the die hard fans. How could Moffat resist??

    Cheers

    Janette

    #32510
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @janetteb – there’s the famous Second Doctor sequence in Tomb of the Cybermen, a reference to a brother by the Third Doctor, but yeah – it’s the AG Doctors who have consistently described themselves as having been a Dad.

    This is the second trip round the dial; I don’t think we’re going to discover the Doctor’s first family. The shot of Susan in Name of the Doctor may be all we get.

    But we may well discover his second family.

    #32511
    Rob @rob

    @DoctorAsADadConverstion 🙂

    In my head the scene between the Doctor, Rory, Amy and Melody/River alwys implied two things one being River was Melody and two that the Doctor and River had a child who would use the cot too

    #32512
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip I agree with the second family idea -how is Clara connected with that I wonder? I recall stating yesterday that I thought we wouldn’t see Susan (yet or ever) but perhaps her ancestors might pop up, for as @janetteb said, could Moffat resist that and also resist bringing to the fore River’s children?

    @phaseshift makes some great points about each episode last season with Clara and claricles. I also recall writing that Clara was extraordinarily compassionate and kind -since The Bells of St John, although even here, she’s a great nanny (with, at that point, no computer skills). PhaseShift put that idea into better words -an empath! Of course, that’s super-Whovian and the show has plenty of history with empaths even before this past season.

    @flirtingdinosaur  yes you’re right about the vault: saving the teller and his partner was The Doctor’s heist and reward. Clara, the empath, would be sufficiently happy with this than with a lottery ticket equivalent!

    I think the ‘call me’ (to Psi) was as @arbutus and others have said, a type of: “let’s get in touch in the future; that was a rollicking ride and you’re fun”. I think we’ve figured that Psi didn’t need the number but that Miss K received it from the Doctor. I do love the Polchinski  Paradox that Bluesqueak discussed yesterday; a much needed physics lesson for me n’ all.

    Surprisingly, BoyIlion, in his last year of primary school read that post and said casually: “yeah, I know that, I heard that before!”. My response was “%^2@>.?/!)??”

    “No mother, my teacher is a science specialist (first I’d heard that) and is a Doctor Who nut like you [a “nut“?!] He talked about paradoxeses [that’s what he said] and this Polshitski guy too.” I know, but it happened. I spat out my afternoon mini-glass of Riesling (last glass left of that Jacob’s Creek drop) – @blenkinsopthebrave being stuck in a cellar with a Jacob Creek wine would be a joy, btw.

    So off on de’holiday where I’ll be scuba diving to about 55 feet -I could meet @pufferfish -though I’d be staying well away. They are notorious for coming close and ‘sniffing’ you out. A marine attack dog. I was going to buy a quality camera for under water swims but the ones I’d like are ridiculously priced so I could either buy the camera and sit at home or actually go away! Kindest, puro.

    #32514
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @purofilion     Oh, could you ask BoyIlion if we can all call it a Polshitski Paradox now???? If he insists, we could write it as Polshitski Paradox ™.

    Have a lovely holiday! I’m picturing a very green sea (on the surface, not at 55ft down). Pleasurable sigh. I’d love to see the fish but I would probably stick with a snorkel! You’re a braver woman than I.  🙂  Enjoy!

    #32523
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    Wow, only gone a few days and absolutely loads to catch up on. (Gives a whole new meaning to “Don’t Blink”!)

     

    Will do my best to catch up on all the recent posts. But in the meantime, here’s a bit of bonkers for you…

     

    In Let’s Kill Hitler, when the Doctor talks to the Tesselecta (or with Carter, controller of the Tesselecta), the conversation goes like this:

     

    CARTER: Throughout history, many criminals have gone unpunished in their lifetimes. Time travel has responsibilities
    DOCTOR: What? You got yourselves time travel, so you decided to punish dead people?
    CARTER: We don’t kill them. We extract them near the end of their established timelines.
    DOCTOR: And then what?
    CARTER: Give them hell.

     

    The Tesselecta’s MO in Let’s Kill Hitler is to travel around in time “extracting” bad people on the verge of death, miniaturise them and punish them.

     

    Bonkers Theory number 1009: The role  (and crew) of the Tesselecta has moved on. Nowadays they “extract” good people and reward them…

     

    Missy’s heaven has something to do with the Tesselecta. People are “extracted” on the brink of death and rewarded in a miniature “Heaven”.
    The miniaturisation process in Into The Dalek, and reference to miniaturisation in Robot Of Sherwood could both hint at an ongoing theme of miniaturisation. And the saving of Gretchen and Humpty could be Tesselecta “extractions”. The brink-of-death teleporting of Psi and Saibra mirror the Tesselecta “saving” of Gretchen and Humpty. We still don’t know whose ship the were teleported to. They could have been miniaturised!

    x

    #32524
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @thommk

    It seems like we are being asked to go against our human nature a lot this series.

    Yes, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head… And I think it’s going to have something to do with robots.

    What separates us from robots? Well… We’ve got involuntary reflexes and involuntary thoughts – but we can control them (to a point). we’ve got senses – but we can control or block them if we need to. We’ve got emotions – but we can keep them under control. We can go against our human nature 🙂

    And if we’re part-human, part-robot, we can even choose which memories to keep and which thoughts to have. Emotions are perhaps more a chemical process and not so much a spiritual experience – for a cyborg.

    But one concept that is entirely human, I think, is the notion of belief.

    A human being doesn’t choose what to believe.

    We either believe something or we don’t… We can pretend to believe something, but we can’t stop ourselves believing it or make ourselves believe something else…

    We can research the evidence, and look for reasons to believe or not believe. But the belief bit either happens or it doesn’t.

    We can’t control our belief the way that we control our breathing. We can choose to suspend our disbelief (e.g. when watching Doctor Who) or we can take a leap of faith.

    Belief is not mechanical the way that thoughts, senses and reflexes are mechanical…

    …So I think the way that Robot Of Sherwood centres around belief in something impossible will turn out to be very important.

    …Which is why it’s incredibly weird that we’ve got robots who appear to believe (in in a very human way a) in a Promised Land. Not sure what we should make of that???

    #32528
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @barnable (and others who are asking “How can Future-Karabraxos call the Doctor and cause him to do something she knows he’s already done??”)
    The best explanation comes from Tennant Doctor in Blink:

     

    DOCTOR : People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it’s more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly, timey-wimey stuff.

     

    @mudlark re: the “ever-increasing burden of memory” .. I like this idea. A lot.

    unless there is something in the canon which suggests that Timelords have a direct mindlink to all the information in the universe

    Well, maybe not quite that,  but (9th Doctor, “Rose”) …
    I can feel it. The turn of the Earth. The ground beneath our feet is spinning at a thousand miles an hour, and the entire planet is hurtling round the sun at sixty seven thousand miles an hour, and I can feel it. We’re falling through space, you and me, clinging to the skin of this tiny little world, and if we let go. That’s who I am.

     

    So he’s got a bit more than Google in his head 🙂 Amnesia is perhaps a good solution. At this stage, he could be at risk of going mad. Eleven was already a “madman in a box” after all.
    And the last “Architect” that I remember meeting in Who was in a mental asylum (Bedlam – The Shakespeare Code.)
    Re: The Tardis re-routing the call… River states this explicitly. Can’t remember which episode, but I think it’s Churchill who calls her. He was trying to contact the Doctor, but reaches her. At any rate, she definitely says something like: “You called the Time Vortex. It doesn’t always work, but the Tardis is clever. She re-routed the call”. So @bluesqueakpip yes to what you said. The Tardis rerouted the call from Karabraxos to the best place and time.
    @purofilion @mudlark – Definitely a TM on “wetware” – the ultimate difference between robots and humans 🙂

    x

    #32529
    lisa @lisa

    DB — believe in promised land
    RoS — believe in myths and legends
    ItD— Dalek believes in good and evil
    L — believe that something exists in the dark
    TH — ???? or

    — Thank you to Idiotsavon for his ideas about having faith in the
    end that everything will become clear –really excellent notion for TH

    Interested in other bonkers theories about Belief and these episodes – I saw in the commercial for the next episode Caretaker that the Doctor tells Clara ”go to your assembly and worship something”

    #32530
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @lisa – I ike your episode references. A belief theme running throughout the series so far, I think.

     

    And in Time Heist, the belief theme was subtle, but in a way it was central: each “bank robber” had to believe that the heist was worth doing. And they had to trust (believe in) each other.

    x

    #32531
    ScaryB @scaryb

    So many great posts.

    @phaseshift and @chickenelly Love your galleries, great stuff

    @mudlark Completely in awe of your Mozart spot. Someone on the production team would be so chuffed to know that was picked up on.

    @Handles I see what you’re getting at with multiple timelines but it ties my little brain in gordian knots! Never thought I’d see the day when I’d think a Moffat Loop was the simplest solution 😉 (But keep up the bonkering!)

    @Purofilion Have a fantastic holiday. Sounds amazing. I’m with @arbutus – prefer a snorkel. Deep diving is too technical 🙂

    Woman in the Shop – I presume we’ve gone thro all the usual suspects – Susan, Romana (I and II), the Rani, River, the Doctor’s mum, Martha, Rose, Donna… I do think they’re teasing us even bringing it up again! Do we add Karabraxos to that list now? Presumably it can’t be anyone Clara’s met so far or she’d recognise her.  Her memories were wiped after she said “So that’s who… ” as she looked thro the History of the Time War book in Journey to the Centre of… Assuming it was the WitS she was referring to of course. Could easily have been something else.

    Right – off for a rewatch of  Time Heist to see if  they say whose spaceship it is. (Desperately clinging to theory of it being Missy’s)

    (Oh, and I like @idiotsavon‘s more-advanced-tesselector theory, that goes about saving people rather than “giving them hell”   I also like the idea of subverting the stereotype dominatrix/businesswoman/bitch from hell look of Missy but not convinced yet that she’s one of the good guys. That “boyfriend” line – oooh, doesn’t sound good!!)

    And really looking forward to The Caretaker Looks great.

    #32532
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @lisa

    ”go to your assembly and worship something”

     

    Ooh interesting. Probably just a throw-away comedy line. But within the story arc?? Maybe a bit more sigificant 🙂

    x

     

    #32534
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @lisa

    Ooh, me like! 😉

    So looking at your ‘faith’ idea:

    Deep Breath – the ‘faith’ is resulting in evil – the droids are killing people so they can get to the Promised Land. It is, however, possible at the end of the story that the Half Faced Man has ‘repented’ and killed himself rather than continue killing others. There’s also a subplot of Clara losing her faith in the Doctor, but getting it back (or realising she’s never really lost it) during the interrogation scene.

    The ‘faith’ may also be faith in something real: the Promised Land might be a real place. The Doctor (in the Whoniverse) is a real person. The original Promised Land is certainly somewhere you can point to on a map.

    Into the Dalek: I’d say the ‘faith’ is in the possibility of knowing good and evil; and that a Dalek could choose good. The Doctor loses faith halfway through – and Clara slaps him. In the end, Rusty (like the Half Faced Man) carries on killing – but has at least learnt to target ‘evil’ rather than ‘good’. Again, these moral choices are shown to have a very physical explanation – but once the physical is taken care of, Rusty can and does make a choice.

    Robot of Sherwood – Clara believes in the myth and the Doctor doesn’t. Unless things change drastically by the end of the series, the Doctor is wrong. Furthermore, the real person that the myth is based on is smart enough to realise that the myth might be more inspiring for people to remember and retell than the ‘truth’. “Stories make us fly.”

    Listen: the Doctor believes in the stories/dreams of the monster under the bed. This particular faith is, again, based on something real – for most people it’s just a dream; for him, the monster was real. But not necessarily a monster. And his theories about it may be completely wrong. Or not. Was the thing on the bed in the Children’s Home an alien, or was it another kid wearing a Halloween mask? 😉

    Time Heist: as @idiotsavon says, the participants had to believe that they’d made the right choice when they couldn’t know why they’d made it. They also had to trust this ‘Architect’ chappie even when he appeared to be letting them die. Again, their faith turned out to be in something real – the Architect was trustworthy and the reward was genuine.

    Hmmm… so far, then, the ‘faith’ theme seems to be arguing that the things we believe in may very well be based on truth. Bit like the Big Bang and little Amelia believing firmly in stars – when there aren’t any stars. But the audience know she’s right.

    #32536
    Anonymous @

    @idiotsavon – Your Tesselecta Missy theory is my favorite theory now. 

    I want to think of something useful to add to it, but for some reason it always leads me back toward thinking about Dino Missy.  So I am still pretty useless for new ideas.  😳

    However, I am not sure that Missy is saving people for good reasons.  Carter’s people were using the tesselecta tech for extracting bad people for the purpose of justice (which is a good thing).  I think Missy is extracting good people for an evil purpose (which is a bad thing).  

     

    #32537
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @barnable

    We can have a dino-missy-tesselecta if you like. That’s why it’s called Bonkers Theorising  🙂

    Interesting that you think Missy is an “Evildoer”. I’m not so sure. I very much hope that Missy is completely mental, because Michelle Gomez does that brilliantly 🙂 But I suspect there’s a mixture of good and bad involved (maybe good intentions with very bad consequences.)

     

    I don’t think she’s a proper evil nemesis.

     

    x

    #32538
    Anonymous @

    @idiotsavon We can have a dino-missy-tesselecta if you like.

    😆 😆 😆

    I fell into the same trap.  You will probably regret saying that.  But don’t feel bad, it didn’t sound that bad to me at first either.  😉

    #32539
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @ barnable

    If it comes true, you will regret ever having doubted yourself 🙂

    x

    #32540
    Anonymous @

    @idiotsavon – Good point.  It is all yours if you want it.

    #32541
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @barnable  I’ll be honest with you, it’ a bit of a gamble 🙂

    x

    #32542
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    Right.

    @lisa and I have had an idea  (well @lisa really… and I really like it!)

    It centres around the similarity between  names: “Neverland” and the “Nethersphere”, and the notion of belief…

    I’m not a big expert in Peter Pan (@Lisa???), but I think the whole point is that you have to believe in Neverland… And the name “Nethersphere” is not so far away from “Neverland”. So perhaps the theme of belief is not so far away either??

    And in the Whoniverse, there have been lots of times when believing/remembering turned dreams into reality: Rory’s resurrection/Amy’s wedding…

    So Belief? The Nethersphere/Neverland? Is it al linked?? @lisa??? 🙂

    x

    #32543
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    It definitely links with my new idea about robots vs humans, and what robots can never do (Robots can never believe). 🙂

    x

    #32544
    Anonymous @

    @idiotsavon – yep it is tough to get 100% behind your own theory. 😆

    But it does make sense, and if anyone can make it work Moffat can.

    #32545
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @ barnable

    Hmm… Dino-Missy-Tesselecta…

     

    Now I think of it…  Cor dear, that’s a bit too mad even for me…

     

    If it actually happens , please feel free to point at me and laugh 🙂

    x

    #32546
    Anonymous @

    @idiotsavon – That is exactly what happened to me.  🙂

    But now, @lisa theories about faith really have me worried about bailing on Dino Missy. 

    What if it’s all about having faith in Moffat to pull it off? 💡

    Argh! Dino Missy will not let go of me… SM.  😈

    #32548
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    Yes, the “belief” aspect is a good call @lisa.

    If you wanted to get a bit meta, whether you believe an interpretation of the Doctor works, and is the hero, is an act of faith.

    In Deep Breath, the Doctor questions why that face, as it’s a bit familiar. Well Caecillius and his family elevated the Doctor and Donna to be their household gods. So they believed.

    Again the Half faced man in that episode must (if we are right and he stepped) believed the Doctor was right. An act of faith.

    Gretchen well, she asked a question of Clara

    Gretchen: Tell me the truth. Is he mad or is he right? I’ve come this far, probably gonna die anyway. Wouldn’t mind something to do for the rest of me life. Is he mad, or is he right?
    Clara: Hand on my heart. Most days he’s both.

    Before she took an act of faith to sacrifice herself.

    The Dalek, rightly or wrongly, made his own conclusions about the Doctor but following the path he did was an act of faith.

    I think it’s worth dwelling on because whether you believe in the myth of the Doctor confers power to him. In Doomsday, he said to Pete “Perhaps that’s all I need – a few people to believe in me”. Eleven begged Amy to believe in him, before having to destroy blind faith in God Complex (as the Seventh did in Curse of Fenric).

    So with a new Doctor bedding in, perhaps that is the subtext for the series. Do you believe he’s the Doctor? Does he?

    #32551
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Faith – interesting. It runs all the way through a lot of Doctor Who.

    Faith in the right things is good, blind faith in anything isn’t. Ties in with all the religious imagery @bluesqueakpip and others have spotted this series.

    Interestingly Rusty “does the right thing” ie sees that Daleks are not a benevolent force in the universe and should be destroyed, but with the “wrong” motivation – he does it through pure hate. Hate is bred into Daleks, pure hate is the best they can achieve. Maybe that’s a more honest motive than the Doctor (although maybe he’s getting close) or anyone else can achieve.

    Rewatched Time Heist – still don’t see a reference to whose spaceship was circling above the Karabraxos planet. (Going to be gutted when this turns out to be a plot hole and isn’t picked up on again 😉 )

    Just thinking about the Caretaker – Care-taker – as in the one who cares? (Can’t wait till tomorrow (timeshifting – blagh!))

     

     

    #32638
    Whisht @whisht

    btw have loved all the insights, thoughts and bonkerising on this thread and Deep Breath.
    Hate to pick any names out as I’ll forget people but if I haven’t said ‘hello’ to @idiotsavant and @phileasf already, then I should have!

    I think (hope!) I’ve said hello to others I like (and generally I like everyone’s stuff, but really like learning new stuff like Goethe or connections I’m not even capable of making!).

    As for themes, I am trying to think of good songs (such a shame @danmartinuk didn’t continue his musical links in his Guardian pieces! 😉 )

    #32749
    LordAllons-y @lordallons-y

    This episode was one that I almost didn’t watch but I’m very glad I did. Probably my second favorite so far especially when the twist is brought into account. It genuinely surprised me that there were two of the creatures and love was the “price” the antagonist alluded to. As for the identity of the Architect…I can’t stand when writers do stuff like that. It feels very lazy and I would have liked the episode even more if the Architect had been someone else. Like one of the clones who was supposed to be disposed of but who escaped and enlisted the Doctor to exact revenge? Idk.

    Good episode though.

    #32793
    VashtaNerada @vashtanerada

    I think this episode was not one of my favourites. (Clara was great though!)

    The Architect twist could have been cool, if they hadn’t rushed the explanation so much. Personally I think this episode is the worst of Peter Capaldi yet, although that isn’t really saying much as he’s been a fantastic Doctor. I did like that there were two creatures, and I really liked half-cyber guy (can’t remember his name :P)

    I definitely don’t regret watching it, but I think there were some wasted chances to make this episode even better.

    #33823
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @barnable Thanks for that.

    #34917
    fonzysimon @fonzysimon

    Definitely one of the better episodes this season, the look and writing reminded me of the RTD era.

     

    #34921
    phMD @phmd

    Was anyone else slightly uncomfortable with the Doctor handing out what everyone thinks is a mode of suicide? I cannot see 10 or 11 doing this…maybe 9 but I really doubt it. Seems to me the Doctor would have recognized what those were (or thought they were) and smashed them.

    Sure they were actually teleporters so it all worked out fine in the end, but it still struck me as something way outside the Doctor’s character.

    For that matter what is the narrative cause of Capaldi’s “darker” Doctor? The way season 7 ended it sounded to me the Doctor was on a path to catharsis and fullfillment. He had hope for Gallifrey, wasn’t going to die afterall, and has entered into a whole new regeneration cycle. Clara is fine, with memory entact, and in the same easily tardisable timezone as he is. So why is 12 at first “afraid” (as 11 says in his phone call), and more importantly why is 12 back to acting like the grumpy John Hurt doctor who at the end of series 7, the Doctor has finally come to terms with?

    I feel very confused by this potrayal of the Doctor and I think it does Capaldi a disservice as it makes him seem even more distant, remote, and removed from the character. He doesn’t seem more alien, only more alien to the Doctor’s core personality.

    “Never cruel or cowardly, never give up, never give in.”

    I feel as if we’ve already seen 12 act in a few of these ways.

     

     

     

     

    #39595
    Baddewoolfe @baddewoolfe

    Hi, new to the revived Whoiverse, and first ost on here, so please forgive, should I break rules, I am not aware of.

     

    I finally caught up with the new Doctors adventures.

     

    Has any of you noticed, that in the overhead shot at the Beginning, a Fez wearing Eleven enters the big hal with a woman on his arm? I wonder if he goes there with the old Miss Karabraxos as a sort of proof, that he rights what she regretted, not saving the teller and partner from the solar storm.

     

    It was a where is Wally moment for me, spotting that Fez.

     

     

     

    #41380
    Missy @missy

    Loved this one. The Doctor as the mysterious Architect, I found compelling.

    #41390
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    I find it interesting this episode is showing that if one of the last of a male / female pair of a species, it is acceptable to commit atrocities to keep the hopes of a species alive.  I think this has something to say about the situation of the Time Lords.

    #42359
    Arbutus @arbutus

    This is quite possibly my favourite episode of the series (although there are a couple coming that I will have to see again before making that judgement). But I loved this from start to finish, every single moment of it. Riveting. Stylish. Funny. Suspenseful. All of the guest roles were perfectly played. The Doctor, going from strength to strength. Why are you in charge? That’s my superpower.

    I loved the moment when he realized that Saibra and Psy hadn’t actually died; he can handle death without showing emotion, but the shock of their survival was too much for him. It was great to see the proof that he really does care about the fate of those he leads. It was also wonderful to see his glee as he finally began to understand the truth behind the Architect.

    This felt like old-school Who in some ways, except that it was a roller coaster ride that we would never have seen on the BG show. Five stars.  🙂

    #42740
    Missy @missy

    I give it five stars too. marvellous piece of fiction.

    cheers,

    Missy

    #42741
    Missy @missy

    @baddewoolfe

    Never noticed that. I shall have another look. I’ve probably watched this more than any other episode in series 8

    Cheers

    Missy.

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