20 September 2014 at 19:20 #32172Craig @craigEmperor
Reminiscent of Philip K. Dick short stories such as Paycheck, The Doctor and Clara become bank robbers when the mysterious Architect sets them a task they cannot refuse – raiding the most dangerous, most secure bank in all of time and space.
With the help of a beautiful shape-shifter and a cyber-augmented gamer, they must fight their way past deadly security, and come face-to-face with the fearsome Teller – a creature of terrifying power that can detect guilt.
Don’t breathe? This time don’t even think!20 September 2014 at 20:22 #32185IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant
Enjoyed that. A snack rather than a feast, but a tasty one.20 September 2014 at 20:38 #32189Devilishrobby @devilishrobby
Hmm not sure what to think of this episode. In the main I think I liked it. It makes a good standalone episode but doesn’t appear to have any interconnection with any events elsewhere (yet). Though about halfway through we were going to have two more candidates for Missy but was pleasantly surprised when they showed up alive and well.
Had one thought though, has the tracker cured the doctors memory problems. At one point I almost got the impression that the doctor had a secondary motive for wanting the tracker to scan him but wasn’t sure what it was.
Will definitely have to watch again to see if there’s anything I’ve missed.20 September 2014 at 20:38 #3219020 September 2014 at 20:40 #32191
Really weird and definitely one I may like more on a rewatch.
It’s not that Stephen Thompson is a bad writer – I enjoyed his Sherlock scripts – but so far I haven’t liked his Who scripts. They always feel as if they should be huge fun; that everything’s in place for a fun and exciting time – and then things are just slightly ‘off’, so that it turns into an episode-by-numbers.
Anyway, I started to find the central conceit a bit irritating about twenty minutes in. It’s a bad sign when I wander out of the room to put the kettle on; I’m normally glued to the telly for the entire episode. What I wanted was more information placed a bit earlier.
Thankfully, I really liked Capaldi’s Doctor in this. I said last week over on the Graun that I thought ‘Listen’ had cemented him as ‘The Doctor’ for me; yup. Definitely – he was ‘The Doctor’, even with a script I didn’t much like.
So, now we know how Gretchen ended up in ‘Heaven’. That teleport, with scream, is exactly the same effect. She didn’t die; she was teleported.20 September 2014 at 20:54 #32192
I really liked that. A lot. A good runabout but with lots of layers about greed and everyone’s price. And dead chuffed cause I reckoned the architect was the Doctor from very early on (for much of the reasoning the Doctor comes up with at the end – devious, timetraveller… why?!)
Another riff on the last of a species, and a callback to Hide again (after last week’s lost timetraveller) with lonely monsters being really starcrossed lovers, Rings of Akhaten -“eat my memories”. A wee wave to the fabulous Orphan Black perhaps with the clones? And “the woman in the shop” – Ha! I know when I’m being teased!!
Best of all I see the Doctor really becoming “the Doctor”, authoritative without being a bully. And a bit of confident charm starting to leak through.
Still unravelling the ins and outs of it. Not totally clear why Karabraxos decided to phone him in old age. Was she finally feeling guilty…? And why did she change her mind about setting the Teller loose on the Doctor and Clara and tell the “guards” to take care of them instead?
Bit of a security flaw surely, that they don’t have security cameras and audio in the vaults…?!20 September 2014 at 20:55 #32193
I really enjoyed that episode.
I have 2 questions though:
1) How did the Doctor know that there would be another bank robber trying to enter the bank at the same time as them? (easy enough for a Time Traveller, I guess, but it wasn’t explicitly pointed out in the episode as far as I remember)
2) If it was that easy to get into the BankTrooper armour, why not do that from the get go?
It still gets 5 stars from me, though, because I believe that these are not insurmountable problems, and I really enjoyed the whole feel of the episode.
Best episode of the season so far.20 September 2014 at 20:57 #3219420 September 2014 at 21:01 #32195idiotsavon @idiotsavon
Cor blimey, that needs a re-watch. I’m not entirely sure what just happened!
“picture the thing you want most in the universe and decide how badly you want it.” (Faust, anyone?? 🙂
“Everything has a price tag I think you’ll find” (What about the Doctor’s new regeneration cycle?)
From Don’t Blink to Don’t Think… I’m convinced that controlling thoughts and reflexes is a Thing.
x20 September 2014 at 21:02 #32196
Tea?!! Will be interested what you think after rewatch. Good call on the teleporter effect. So… just a thought – did they say where they’d teleported to? Could they have gone to Missy’s “heaven”? (For a cuppa before rejoining the fray of course). Will need to rewatch myself.
Memory worms… hmm20 September 2014 at 21:05 #32197
I believe that they teleported to a ship in orbit, where the Tardis was also stowed.20 September 2014 at 21:08 #32198
I believe that they teleported to a ship in orbit, where the Tardis was also stowed.
Ah, yes you’re right, I’d forgotten (memory worms!)
But… whose is the ship? (see above re Missy’s world theory)
Why did the Doctor think they were suicide weapons, rather than thinking “teleport”?
@bluesqueakpip – I’m starting to think your original pre-series theory about the Doctor’s memories (and lack of) being something more than a throwaway may be coming back into play.
Why did the Doctor write “I’m a Time Traveller” on the paper he gave to Karabraxos instead of telling her?
btw – re another bank robber – there wasn’t, there was only them.20 September 2014 at 21:14 #32199
So the chap that got souped was just an innocent bystander? I must be missing something here – was he part of the set up all along, who volunteered to get souped?20 September 2014 at 21:24 #32200Miapatrick @miapatrick
Since the first two episodes featured Missy, and the first three mentioned the ‘promised land’, I’m assuming that the last two episodes must contain some sort of a reference/clue. This one could be quite simple. Imagine what you want most of all in the world…
On that subject, what did the Doctor want most of all in the world? Obviously he sent himself down their to complete his mission. And he managed to save a species from dying out. The whole ‘last of their kind’ scenario has been there since the re-boot. And he’s still, effectively, the last of his kind.
Anyway, really liked that. Capaldi is a wonderful doctor. His bedside manner defiantly improved from episode two when it comes to being with the dying. Looking forward to his caretaker turn. Don’t think he’ll quite take to it the way his predecessor did.20 September 2014 at 21:33 #32201TheatreGuy @theatreguy
I liked it – a solid adventure, great guest star, and a wonderful supporting team for the Doctor to bounce off of.
I need to watch again, but something odd seemed to be implied when the Tellor was going into Clara’s memories, I remember noting something important was implied but have now forgotten!
And The Guardian seem to be very positive about it!20 September 2014 at 21:39 #32202Oblique @oblique
47minutes of complete absorption.
Great story, lovely sets, beautifully shot , monsters that really aren’t monsters at all, very nice cast… loved Siabra and Psi in the supporting roles … v-e-r-y sexy. I do hope we meet them again.
Capaldi’s Doctor: I like his humour, which never feels laboured and he’s coolly pragmatic. I don’t think he’s quite the indestructible super-hero of recent previous incarnations (not exclusively, I add with haste)
The labyrinthine vaults and Teller: recalled the minotaur myth, and Aggedor the beast of Peladon, being pressed into service in the mines.20 September 2014 at 21:45 #32204
Abslom Daak was one of the ‘most wanted’ criminals… Who else from the Whoniverse did you spot?20 September 2014 at 21:51 #32205Miapatrick @miapatrick
@theatreguy when the Teller was getting at her memories, I thought that there was some kind of reference to her time in the Doctors time stream, and wondered if she was trying not to think of it.
Then when the Doctor used him to undo the effect of the memory worm, I wondered if she might have begun to remember something about it that she had lost.20 September 2014 at 21:53 #32206JimboMcMaster @jimbomcmaster
Very much enjoyed that, especially the opening scenes with the memory worms, and them not knowing why they’re there etc. Just a really great original idea for an episode and a great way to throw them straight into the action. Getting a tiny bit fed up with all these timey-wimey circles though. But enjoyable, possibly equal to Listen for me (heresy!), but a few things I was uncertain of:
How did the Doctor get the cases into the bank? (The ones with the teleports etc in). Why did Karabraxos leave, and lose all her wealth? Surely solar storms couldn’t have been destroying the bank? And:
@scaryb Yeah I’m confused why she phoned him, presumably she felt guilty about the Teller’s mate in the cell, wanted him/her freed.
@Bluesqueakpip @scaryb I too think Capaldi really started to feel ‘at home’ as the Doctor for me. He always felt like the Doctor , but today I forgot he was still quite new. Also, this is probably the closest we’ve got to an ‘average’ Twelfth Doctor, as previously he’s preoccupied by fear/paranoia (Listen) or hatred for Daleks (Into the Dalek) or incredulity (Robot of Sherwood) or post-regenerative effects.
Very much like this Doctor.20 September 2014 at 22:21 #3221020 September 2014 at 22:30 #32211
I’m confused why she phoned him, presumably she felt guilty about the Teller’s mate in the cell, wanted him/her freed.
I was a bit disappointed about her motivation – I was hoping that she had had some sort of change of mind about her clones, and that she was going to ask the Doctor to rescue them one-by-one as they were each about to be incinerated, as only someone with a Time Machine would be able to do.
Although, on second thoughts, that is exactly the modus operandi of Missy. Thus, my first bonkers theory of this season is to suggest that Missy will have a clone army of Karabroxoses, rather like Palpatine had an army of Jango Fetts.
The “mated pair, last of their species in the universe” seems to be a tired trope to me, although the only other example I can think of at the moment is the pocket universe creatures from Hide. Unless the Doctor and Missy are a “mated pair, last of their species”… ?20 September 2014 at 22:58 #32217
@scaryb – no, still want a cup of tea about twenty minutes in. 😉
@theatreguy I think the most important implication about Clara’s memories isn’t the memories as such – it’s that she’s feeling incredibly guilty about something. Both times, the Teller locks on to Clara.
They give her an in-story reason to feel guilty – she’s gone on a date with the Doctor rather than with Danny – but she seems to feel guilty about something she can’t remember. Very, very guilty.20 September 2014 at 23:00 #32218Serahni @serahni
Another one I’m going to have to rewatch! Overall, I enjoyed it. It had a slightly different feel to it, mostly because as someone mentioned, it seemed a fun little stand-alone with no over-dependence on story arc. I am sure there were clues embedded, a little trail throughout the series is exactly Moffat’s style, but it was nice to see something that can also be self-contained. I also liked that The Doctor seemed front and centre perhaps more than he has in other episodes. It’s almost as if, as he becomes comfortable in his new skin, he steps further into the spotlight.
It’s also kind of cute that he displays moments of jealousy. I no longer think it’s about romantic interest in Clara but more that dependency on her to keep him on the straight and narrow. After all, he phoned her from a long way away to ask her to stay and help him be less scared.
One thing that did stand out, however, is that it’s getting a bit old watching the many ways he pleads with Clara to drop her plans and go with him. I guess most companions in the past have traveled with him full-time and it’s being made very obvious that Clara is trying to have a normal life running parallel to her extraordinary one. I don’t mind that but I do wonder at the necessity of watching him try to convince her all the time. (Though knowing Moffat, that’s no accident.) The Robots of Sherwood episode just started with them in the TARDIS and that seemed to work just fine!20 September 2014 at 23:03 #32219Timeloop @timeloop
Liked that episode. Had a feel of ‘the arrow’ and ‘mission impossible’ at some points.
Not confused by anyting, surely a standalone.
The only thing I didn’t like : ‘beat that for a date’ – The Doctor is competing with Mr. Pink. I don’t like that whole boyfriend theme.
Also: When the Doctor gets hugged at 43:36 He rubs his arm uncomfortably. Looks like it hurts or something?20 September 2014 at 23:13 #32220BanjoFiddler @banjofiddler
Clara laughing inappropriatly 23:44??20 September 2014 at 23:17 #32221IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant
I don’t like that whole boyfriend theme.
I don’t think ti was boyfriend, I think it was an expression of dependency. “I’m more fun than anything on a date”.
He rubs his arm uncomfortably.
Yes I noticed that – like something happened that we didn’t see.20 September 2014 at 23:33 #32223TheatreGuy @theatreguy
@bluesqueakpip – good points. There was certainly something with her conversation with Psi about him wiping his memories to protect family and friends.
it feels they are alluding to Clara not quite knowing something about her own past – perhaps having had her memories wiped/suppressed for the same reasons20 September 2014 at 23:43 #32224Anonymous @
I kept thinking that the Teller was like a more evolved relation to the memory worm. They didn’t go that way so it’s probably just me.20 September 2014 at 23:48 #32225Anonymous @
I think he was rubbing his arm because Saibra gave him a tight hug.20 September 2014 at 23:48 #32226Pufferfish @pufferfish
I really loved that. Generally I don’t re-watch until tomorrow so it will be interesting which things start stacking up following the application of 20/20 hindsight.
Because she doesn’t think of herself as a person who lies, Clara’s guilty about the range of evasions and lies she’s had to make/tell to carry on travelling with the Doctor, and she’s really guilty about not telling the Doctor where the Tardis went in his timeline in Listen. The shots they used when she was being scanned by the Teller evoked both Name of the Doctor and The God Complex, so maybe @miapatrick is on to something?21 September 2014 at 00:20 #32228
@theatreguy – well, Clara did have her memory wiped in another Stephen Thompson script – Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS. That was the episode where she both saw The History of The Time War (‘So that’s who…) and the Doctor’s name ( on that little tiny…).
And it was very carefully established that The Teller brings buried/blocked/suppressed memories to the surface.21 September 2014 at 00:35 #32231Spider @spider
First impressions of this episode, i enjoyed it but there was a lot i was’t sure of. I suspected the Doctor being the face behind it all pretty early on. Maybe that changed my perspective of things. On a second watch though got so much more out of the episode (As usual). First time we have seen this Doctor socialising properly, laughing, having a joke! That was really interesting.
But, question: Is it just me or was Clara totally unneeded in this episode at all?. Apart from the brilliant comedy at the beginning (face coloured in and needing to reach a shelf) I felt she was completely unnecessary to the plot. Everything that happened would have happened exactly the same way whether or not she was there? It felt she was just a white board for the Doctor to voice his theories on. Now, given that is a role for the companion fine..but really why was she there? Why didn’t the doctor leave her with his architect self. On the other hand, i liked she took a more backward role and it was all about the Doctor this episode.
The other thing that caught my eye through this episode was RINGS on peoples hands. The Doctor wears a ring on the 4th finger of his left hand. we’ve seen that before. could be do do with river and being married. maybe not. BUT more importantly, Clara is wearing a ring on her hand as well, middle finger left hand?. PLUS psi also has a ring left hand on his little finger?, As far as i can remember i don’t see a ring on sabre (or however you spell it) hand. would need to look again For all this rewatch the scene in the lift/room place as they wait for the dimension bomb to go off.
Later on. Watch ms delfox (Keeley hawes! i only just saw looking at credits, didn’t recognise her!). She has four rings. TWO on each hand. the two on her left are gold and are on the same fingers Clara and the Doctor wear rings on (middle and index). She is also wearing two rings on her other hand pinky and one other side…they are black.
I dunno what to conclude about all that but there is a LOT of hand waving in this episode, almost making us LOOK at peoples hands to see some sort of message…or maybe i am seeing patterns that aren’t there!
Off to watch again and spend the entire time looking at people hands in case i’m onto something!
Whaddya mean obsessive!? 😉
(\(\;;/)/)21 September 2014 at 00:36 #32232Apopheniac @apopheniac
Aggghhh, was working late tonight so just watched the ep and the Extra. I will definitely watch again tomorrow.
This was fantastic. I liked it so much better than Listen.
So, now we know how Gretchen ended up in ‘Heaven’. That teleport, with scream, is exactly the same effect. She didn’t die; she was teleported.
Yes, yes, yes, and yes again.
a callback to Hide again … with lonely monsters being really starcrossed lovers, Rings of Akhaten -”eat my memories”.
I got both of those, too. (two? 🙂 )
I love that picture of Keely Hawes in her old lady makeup. And I want to pause and look at the criminals Psi was downloading. A gold mine of characters and theorising potential.
“Everything has a price tag I think you’ll find” (What about the Doctor’s new regeneration cycle?)
What a good question. I also noticed so much emphasis on eyes in this ep so I think @bluesqueakpip was right a few eps ago saying that this series is all about eyes.
it’s getting a bit old watching the many ways he pleads with Clara to drop her plans and go with him. I guess most companions in the past have traveled with him full-time and it’s being made very obvious that Clara is trying to have a normal life running parallel to her extraordinary one.
Its also feeling a bit pushy on the whole “hes not her boyfriend” thing. I had hoped they got that out of the way already. The Doctor is still needy for companionship, though. After his lotus sitting on the Tardis in Listen, and its exploration of his loneliness and childhood fears (widened out to a general humankind fear expressed in a particular nightmare) it feels OK that he is portrayed as someone who is needy. But he shouldnt be competing with Claras dates, I agree with you.21 September 2014 at 00:47 #32234Craig @craigEmperor21 September 2014 at 01:06 #32235Apopheniac @apopheniac
Its just too effing late but I saw @bluesqueakpip s comment when logging out.
Clara did have her memory wiped in another Stephen Thompson script – Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS
I wondered why Clara was so moved by Psi saying he had no family or friends to remember, and how he had deleted them for their own safety. I need to go to bed and re-watch this ep tomorrow. But I will focus on that moment because I think it is quite important to the arc. My immediate thought was that Clara was thinking of Danny (Rupert / etc) but perhaps she was thinking of her mother who died? Or her father and step-mother? Who would Clara see when she saw her life flashing in front of her eyes? I think the Doctor, and all of his lives that she tumbled into. But you have made me remember that her memory was wiped once before, explicitly (and implicitly because shes not supposed to remember being The Impossible Girl).
So many “criminals” to ponder.21 September 2014 at 01:40 #32247
Each one of the robbers pictured has a number (possible clues?)…..
The line up is:
(Not sure why but) the Gunslinger
Sontaran? (partly obscured)
Sensorite (?) again
Strange that last week’s next time trailer had a different order and much slower!
I wonder if the unknowns are production crew a la Brain of Morbius? I don’t recognise them.21 September 2014 at 02:45 #32249Serahni @serahni
Now, given that is a role for the companion fine..but really why was she there? Why didn’t the doctor leave her with his architect self.
I suspect this is along the lines of what’s been said about The Doctor’s neediness and also his confused sense of self. Clara has become his designated ‘carer’, someone he trusts, someone he believes knows who he is and can help him rediscover that for himself. I think he keeps her around simply because, without her, even The Doctor is struggling to figure out what that name means anymore. It’s arguably another sign of the egocentric nature of this incarnation, that he would continually risk her for his own benefit, though it could just as easily be said that it’s kind of nice that The Doctor is recognising he needs help. This is, after all, the same man that kept trying to ditch her not too long ago. He needed her help then, just as he needed her help countless times throughout his lives as the Claricles stepped in to preserve his timeline. Maybe the difference now is that he’s finally acknowledging it.21 September 2014 at 11:11 #32258PhaseShift @phaseshiftTime Lord
I’m really going to have to rewatch that later in the week when I’m not working. The disjointed time-narrative threw me a little on first watch.
Some good performances though. I think we have some ongoing questions about identity throughout this series (as we had in Eleven’s run). The shape-shifter commends the Doctor on being “a good man” but he doesn’t see it that way at the end. Would he like “The Architect”? No he doesn’t. The Doctor hates being manipulated, although often manipulates. The first Scottish Doctor, Sylvester McCoy, would have been happy with a moniker like “The Architect” though, wouldn’t he? Next week we seem to be returning to Doctor and Widow territory with an adoption of “The Caretaker”.
Loves some of the filming in the sequences with Clara and the chase. Again, dwelling on whether Clara is a telepath/empath is is feasible that she could have masked her thoughts from the Teller? It seemed to lock onto her for preference twice.21 September 2014 at 11:57 #32260nick1235 @nick1235
Living in the other side of the planets of where DW is being aired isn’t that easy, but hey, I got to watch Time Heist today. Didn’t even REMEMBER it’s a time heist until the Doctor say it is. Funny thing they keep referring this into a bank heist and I can’t recall the fact that the episode is being called Time Heist. Psi, Saibra, the Doctor, really really played their part. I really love them. So.. are we getting the children of time coming back again? Like when Tennant did in the Parting Ways? That’s pretty impossible though since Saibra now don’t have her supa-powa. The slow-mo of when they’re getting in to the bank is VERY VERY SEXY.
1 thing I’m not that really sold to is that, when the extras says, “this episode is like ocean’s eleven” and then they face the Teller, which then they need to “SACRIFICE” themselves with that thing. None of the Ocean’s are dead. Well then. Carry on, thank you for @wolfweed for pointing out Kevan Brighting, I notice that famous The Stanley Parable ( game, 2013 ) voice on the vault and giggles myself through it. I mean, of course, it will be him. His voice is his signature. The tone, the pronunciation is really really felt like him. For those who don’t know, Kevan Brighting, The Stanley Parable ( game, 2013 ), Dota 2 ( game, 2011 ).
Overall 10/10, 2nd most favorite episode on the season, behind listen. Too bad no Pink today. 🙁21 September 2014 at 12:24 #32262Juniperfish @juniperfish
One of my fave actresses Keeley Hawes as Karabraxos and her clone – yay!
I liked the cinematographic panache of the episode and indeed I’m really enjoying the new series overall – a very different feel from the fairytale era of Smithy (praise be to it) – this season has a continual 1960s spy undercurrent, which I think is the most subtle but persistent clue that the Doctor’s granddaughter will be revealed (the 1960s origins of the Who narrative) during Capaldi’s tenure. From Clara’s outfits (lovely suit and bootlace tie in this ep) to the patrician aquiline grouch of Twelve which rather recalls The Prisoner (Patrick McGoohan) and The Avengers (Patrick MacNee)…
The Doctor’s self loathing continues apace from the previous Nu Who incarnations as do the glimpses that his hearts of gold are in there underneath the snippy exterior.
The brain suck was pretty scary – wonder what Linda Lee will make of that one.
@phaseshift Definitely one to watch again.
@bluesqueakpip re Clara’s guilt and her memories. She’s related to the Doctor or I’m a fish in space.
“Why did the Doctor think they were suicide weapons, rather than thinking “teleport”? ”
Indeed – does the Doctor save people or get them killed is the central question (both of course) but at the moment he’s gloomily of the view it’s the latter on balance – another case of up–time-stream Doctor knowing more than our present-time Doctor…21 September 2014 at 12:31 #32264Juniperfish @juniperfish
@pedant – Just looking back at mentions – yes I also think it would be very funny (and not beyond the realms of possibility as we all know the Moff is a Grauniad reader) if the Blue/ Pink intermittent theme is a chain-yanking writer’s gag following on from the Red/ Blue bow ties spec last seasons. But, on the other hand we now have two time streams clearly in Twelve’s past (and two time streams have previously been signified by two colours) the one where he destroyed Gallifrey and the one where he saved it in a bubble universe…
IM-PE-RA-TIVE – Must swim back and watch all the eps with a large notebook and over-sized glasses for Blue/ Pink clues!!!! 🙂21 September 2014 at 12:36 #32265acciotardis @acciotardis
Hi everyone! (This is my first post here by the way – very excited!)
I liked a lot about the episode. Particularly the Teller – fantastic to see a creature that looked so realistic (if that’s the correct word, given that it doesn’t exist!) and I loved the Doctor joking around. However, I do wonder about Clara…it seems like the Doctor turning up in her life is an inconvenience, like she is bored with all the time travel and just wants to get on with her ‘real’ life. I think that works in a way as they are setting up the Danny Pink story, but it annoys me a bit. If the Doctor landed in the TARDIS in my living room I’d be bouncing around ready for adventure!21 September 2014 at 12:36 #32266PhileasF @phileasf
I didn’t really care for Stephen Thompson’s first episode (Curse of the Black Spot), but thought Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS was pretty good. If he keeps improving at this rate, he could become one of the great Doctor Who writers.
At first I couldn’t quite see how the Doctor was able to plant the suitcases prior to the heist. On second viewing I think the idea is that the TARDIS can visit the bank prior to the solar storm, but not during it. But the Doctor can’t rescue the Teller and his friend until the very last moment before the bank closes down, when Karabraxos has left. Thus he needs to be there at the very time that the TARDIS can’t get into the private vault, hence the whole complicated heist set-up.
Why did the Doctor think the teleport devices were suicide machines? My guess is that he intentionally made them to resemble some suicide machine technology he’s seen, so that whenever anyone used one, the ‘survivors’ would think they had died, and thus fool the Teller into thinking so too.
The Doctor first seems to work out who the Architect is by realising that he hates the Architect. Even after he seems to have worked out that the Architect is himself, he reiterates that he hates him. Thus it would seem that this Doctor hates himself. A career break for a therapist indeed. Karabraxos’s self-burning is a mirror for his self-hatred. And Saibre’s belief that no-one can trust someone who looks just like themselves caps the self-hating theme. Hell isn’t other people; it’s a mirror. And we keep seeing Clara mirrored: last week, with her three-sided mirror, and the time-travelly path-crossing that let her watch herself walk away from the restaurant; this week, when Saibre imitates her; and next week the mirror is back, according to the ‘next week’ trailer.
Clara and Danny’s brief scene at the start of the episode: for once, we don’t see it edited into a non-linear sequence — instead, Danny speaks ‘out of order’.
The Teller and friend were wearing outfits a little like Orson Pink’s suit.
What is Clara guilty about? Could it be something to do with her mother? As I recall, we’ve never found out what happened to her. I’m reminded of Amy’s parents. Somehow Clara’s mother has somehow been swallowed up by time paradoxes sparked by Clara’s time-travelling lifestyle.21 September 2014 at 13:19 #32270janetteB @janetteb
I agree with @bluesqueakpip re’ this episode. It was workmanlike and I too paused to make coffee half way through. Interesting point ‘re Clara’s guilt.
@scaryb. Yes Cloning again. I wonder if cloning is significant to this series. It is possible that Orson was a Danny clone, without the memories. LIkewise the teleporters indicate one way the “sacrficed” get to Missy’s though we did see a body in the first episode so with the robot/man, only part at least of him was teleported, the human or robot part maybe.
The mention of the woman in the shop was for me one of the highlights. I do want to find out who she is.
Lastly the teller and his partner walking off into their “promised land” had a very definite “Adam and Eve” feel to it.
Janette21 September 2014 at 14:34 #32278PhileasF @phileasf
Another thought. This episode felt less ‘dark’ than we’ve seen lately. But perhaps this is the darkest we’ve ever seen the Doctor.
This is the first time, as far as I can recall, that the Doctor has had employees. They’ve agreed to risk their lives to obtain the thing they most want. The Doctor has identified their heart’s desire, found or made it, and placed it in the bank’s vault so they’ll agree to help him.
This level of manipulation would make Doctor 7 blush. There’s been a tendency in recent years to label the Doctor a sociopath, but this might be the first really sociopathic thing we’ve seen him do.21 September 2014 at 14:35 #32279BESD1 @besd1
Purely in terms of story telling, and having scanned the thread I get the feeling I might be in a minority, I thought that was the best episode of the series so far. I’ve enjoyed every episode, but have been finding the story telling a little lacking on the whole. “Breathe” was an enjoyable introduction to the new Doctor, but the story was a bit of an afterthought, “Into The Dalek” was told extremely well (and featured the 2 best guest performances so far from Zawe Ashton and Michael Smiley), but still somewhat necessarily weighed down by the Doctor’s need to discover himself, “Robot of Sherwood” was this season’s “Gods and Monsters”/ “Curse of the Black Spot” (enjoyable nonsense, but nonsense nonetheless, not to mention as nonsensical as it’s title suggested – golden arrow shoots space ship into orbit? Really?). Finally, there was “Listen”, fascinating and infuriating, with a conclusion that did not fit the observed facts, it flattered to deceive, but the deception was so enthralling that I can’t bring myself to criticise it too much.
So what of “Time Heist”? The story worked from start to finish on its own terms (I struggled a little with brain soup donors still walking around, but I can suspend enough belief to buy that if i assume the brain stem was kept intact to maintain vital functions, and don’t go looking at any anatomical text books), it was suspenseful and exciting, the people felt more than usually fleshed out (I believed in Ms Delphox, Si and Sabre more in a few seconds, than I did Robin and his merry men in an entire episode), Clara continues to grow into her role as moral compass and strong counterpoint to the Doctor and best of all, here, brilliantly, definitively, is Capaldi’s Doctor and, as has been clear at times from the very first second, it is destined to be amongst the finest of all 13 portrayals.
Moving on, a question: the series so far has been littred with references to episodes past. In that 45 minutes alone, and without really looking, I spotted: “The Bells of St John” (this one was clearly a plot point so can probably be ignored as regards my question) , “Rings of Akhaten”, “Bad Wolf”, “The Long Game”, “Amy’s Choice”, “Christmas Carol” and “The Beast below”.
I’m sure I’ve missed some, and I’m sure as lengthy a list could be compiled for each episode this season so here’s the question. Are these references:
(a) a heavy handed but fun treat for the fans
(b) there for a reason related to the developing story arc?21 September 2014 at 14:36 #32280BESD1 @besd1
Sorry: “deep Breath” – not sure why I keep thinking of it as “Breathe”! Possibly a latent memory of Prodigy.21 September 2014 at 14:45 #32281janetteB @janetteb
@PhineasF I have to disagree with you about the Doctor here. He sets things up so that the “employees” will be saved. He plants the teleporter devices for them and the how intent of the mission is to save the two trapped aliens. I think here the Doctor really shows just how much he does care.
@DESD1 having just read Guardian comments I was surprised by just how w ell received this episode was by the fans. This series is providing something for everyone. There have been a variety of episodes, all strong in their own way but not all to everyone’s tastes. This was probably my least favourite, thus far. (I still enjoyed it and my family really liked it.) Welcome too.:-)
Janette21 September 2014 at 14:56 #32282Spider @spider
Oh I like the idea of Blue/Pink mirroring the two different time streams. So perhaps the one where he did destroy Gallifrey is Blue (Journey Blue was a soldier) and the one where he doesn’t is Pink (Danny Pink is an ex-soldier)? @juniperfish, I think I too shall go back and watch all the eps again for more Blue/Pink clues!
Anyone else think of the Torchwood Children of Earth tank with the 456 when Twelve was nose to nose with the Tellers tank?
If the Teller picks up on guilt is it just specific guilt about robbing the bank? Otherwise you think it would right away pick up the Doctor as being a towering transmitter of ultra guilt! Perhaps he can block that telepathically – but if that’s the case why bother with the memory worm?
@serahni Agree with everything you said there about Clara, very well put. I do think the Doctor finally recognises he needs help, he needs someone. I think I just felt initially with this particular episode she was not required for the bank heist so why did he take her along. But thinking about it more and looking at the bigger picture (rather than just the bank plot) this is the Doctor showing Clara (and himself and us as well) that he is a good man. He helps 5 different people here, Psi, Saibra, the 2 Teller creatures plus Karabraxos.
(\(\;;/)/)21 September 2014 at 15:19 #32286Brewski @brewski
The Doctor did say “Shut-ity up up up”. Didn’t he?
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