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Has anything been said about the actual air dates for the aniversary specials. Just saying so I can book my shifts accordingly is it going to be over a 3 day weekend or is it going to be over 3 weekends the Beeb seem to be remarkably silent about when they are actually going to be shown.

 

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@nuwhovianjean  In the uk I think your best bet would be the BBC iPlayer, it was also on Netflix but was taken off when Disney+ announced its partnership and I think outside of the uk Disney+ will have the contractual rights to screening past series’s

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@translatorcircuit  I seem to remember watching a series called  Star Maidens in the late 70’s or early 80’s, if I remember right it was a Gerry Anderson co-production of some description. I also remember watching the Lexx series it was broadcast in the uk on an early version of skys  sci-fi channel I also remember it was almost soft porographic and had a Barbarella type vibe.

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@blenkinsopthebrave That may be, but I think that may end up being a byproduct of the story. The obvious thing for the 3 episodes is who or what is behind or caused the Doctor to regenerate with 10’s face. Though we may find out because of who the doctor is  it’s not necessarily unusual for him/her to recycle a previous face it’s just that up until this last regeneration cycle that the Doctor has forgotten that he/her has had a face previously due to having his/her memory wiped. Though I’m still betting there will either be a cause or being behind this regeneration repeat. The only thing now is that I’m not so sure that the Celestial Toymaker is the one as it’s now being hinted he’s only the focus of the second episode with meep the beep being episode 1. I’m scratching my head about episode/part 3 and the giggles hint as to who this may be hinting at, as a long time fan/watcher of the show I can’t remember a big bad who’s trademark was giggling.
If the 3 specials are to be separate stories but with an underlying thread I don’t know why they are going to be broadcast so close together though the exact timing of when the episodes are to be broadcast hasn’t  been announced to my knowledge. They could have been screened much like Tenants final 3 specials with one at Easter  one midsummer and the final one on the anniversary, so I suspect the underlying thread may be more important than the individual episodes and RTD doesn’t want to give us too much time to speculate for some reason.

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So the 60th specials look to be like a 3 episode series with stories that may or may not be connected.

 

 

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@blenkinsopthebrave, @jannetteb,@dentarthurdent. I agree in your assessment of the pre gap costumes in the main, though I would say that Sylvester McCoy’s costume did improve somewhat in the second half of his tenure and if memory serves me haven’t all the Doctors from Tom Baker onwards had a question-mark positioned somewhere in their costume I seem to remember Peter Davidsons shirt lapels had them embroidered on them at least and C.Bs costume was such a riot of rainbow colour I’m sure there was one or two somewhere.

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@dentarthurdent the same here they had me sitting out in a big chair the afternoon the day after my op despite still having 2 chest drains. They had me walking the next morning and going to the toilet and back by the end of the day and I was actually discharged home to finish my recovery on day 5 postoperative similar you. I had been told I was probably going to be in hospital at least 7- 10 days post valve replacement. I think the worst  thing was when they pulled the temporary pacing wire out it was a horrible sensation.

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Lol visualising you running to what I would call a telephone pole to hug it to ease coughing pain made me laugh as I well remember my own post open heart surgery recovery from a few years ago and having a cushion available for when I coughed and if I was out in the car (as a passenger) with the cushion to provide padding against the seat belt.

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Thank you @phaseshift and  our lord and “master” emperor  @craig without which this space would not exist. Btw given all news lately about the 60th anniversary, and though I have been a lifelong fan of TV Who  for some reason Beep the Meep seemed to have passed me by possibly because I never got the DW weekly magazine my local suppliers of comics at the time being rather snobbish about what kids magazines the held in stock ie if it wasn’t DC or Marvel they didn’t stock them. I have been looking online to see if any of the comic book adventures of Beep  have been digitally reproduced but other than a plethora of TV magazine articles I can’t seem find much other than the odd single frame images.

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Is it me or are they being a bit canny about actually identifying Neil Patrick’s character as the Celestial  Toymaker. Now I really am wondering if my bonkers thoughts a few days ago that he’s not playing the ToyMaker but is a new incarnation of the Master I wouldn’t put it past RTD to let us think NP is the Toymaker when he’s someone else entirely. As I have stated elsewhere I wondered if the forced regeneration into masterdoc had had some effect of giving him unlimited regeneration ability.

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@all a belated Merry Xmas to you all hope you all had a good day.

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Oh Robert you mad evil person, I had an evil thought whilst I was in my personal forced regeneration cubicle aka the shower this morning. What if we’ve all been wrong about Neil Patrick’s role as the celestial Toymaker but he is in fact the Master now wouldn’t that be a turn up for the books. Now bear with me we know Deshwan Master was probably dying at the end of Power of the Doctor but what if because he force regenerated into a Jodie/Master has he has altered his own Timelord genetics into activating the timeless child like unlimited number of regeneration, though in theory the Master may have regenerations left. Those of us who remember the Tom Baker pre gap era will remember that the Master was likely given a new regeneration cycle in the Deadly Assassin Story when the Timelord council ordered his decaying appearance be fixed to ease their sensibilities of what a Timelord should look like. It wouldn’t surprise me if RTD has been doing one of his notorious lies to give us a major surprise in the 60th Anniversary Specials by letting us all assume that Neil is playing the Celestial ToyMaker. Now I wouldn’t expect him to continue the role long term and it would probably only be for the 3 specials with him regenerating again just as Tennant is regenerating into Gnuti’s Doctor.

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@translatorcircuit if you had paid any attention to news releases when RTD  said he had the scripts for 4 specials he was referring to the 3 specials that make up the 60th anniversary celebrations and the Gnuti’s  introductory Special which is going to be aired over the xmas period  with his first season after that. Now given that most seasons have taken in the region of 8-9 months to make it may mean that we could be seeing that season early in 2024 even the January. Also that same article you have quoted also stated RTD had 6 manuscripts for Gnuti’s first season plus a 7th blinking on what I imagine was his computer which puts payed  to your previous assertion that the Disney+ deal was dictating the length of the season be only 6 episodes. So no there isn’t going to be a further 2 years until the next full season it’s quite possibly only going to be 13 or 14 months. The Who season premiere has never really been a fixed time event the very first Nu Who season started at Easter though I will admit we had got used to Who starting usually in the Autumn normally early autumn being September time. The scheduling is down to the BBC and I think the events ongoing in any particular year have been and will dictate series launches, it may even be that the Disney deal may regularise the start windows for future seasons. The last few years have been a scheduling nightmare but that’s in a big part been down to the Covid restrictions effects on filming and though not as restrictive now still are having effects on the tv and film industry in general.

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@translatorcircuit with all due respect what utter drivel. I sincerely doubt you are a true Who fan  all your comments seem to be negative and putting down the BBC and criticising the production values and the actors about things that are  often out of their control. You’re banging on that Who  has been cancelled by the BBC is blatantly untrue, my impression is that RTD has committed to being the front runner for at least season 14 and 15. Also the deal with Disney+ relates to the overseas steaming/distribution but in the UK and Ireland the BBC will be broadcasting the show. In this day and age it’s not unusual for broadcasting companies to join forces to produce  programs and the  overseas Disney+ distribution deal it is hoped will give the BBC funds to be able to hopefully give us longer series’s in the future. Your griping previously about the some of the lead actors having been allowed to end their runs as the Doctor with a series of specials is basically ludicrous, these actors have to commit to productions anything upto 2 or 3 years in advance so the shows producers will have been well aware of this and it would have been discussed in detail by both the actor and the Who production team before the actor takes on a new role.

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@rewvian it’s not a tv series it’s a 8 part multidoctor audio story series by Big Finish that’s been announced as part of this years DoctorWho day, as far as I can tell the 3-4 specials with 3 making up the 60th anniversary with Tennant and the Xmas/newyear introducing Ncuti in his first full episode is the official BBC tv offering

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@nerys I have to agree to a large extent about your comment about the overuse of what has been called legacy villains like the daleks  especially in the last few years I kept thinking especially for the Xmas/new year specials I think almost all were Dalek stories we had at least 3 specials on the trot that were Dalek centred. In part I think this has been  driven by classic fans wanting traditional style  who stories and part a lack of imagination by the writers in producing new foes that are liked by the viewers. Also to be fair Doctor Who  even in the Classic era has  always gone back to classic foes like the Daleks and the Cybermen time and again, I think most seasons have contained at least one story containing at least one of the legacy villains.

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@impuredalek my understanding Disney haven’t bought the”rights”  the bbc keep them they’ve just bought the streaming distribution rights. Unlike the rights to produce the show which as I’ve said the BBC hold and others like the Terrance Dicks Estate (I think it is) who hold the copy right to the Daleks so Disney can’t just go and produce their own version of Dr Who (thank god). They do however hold the overseas streaming and distribution rights through their Disney+ platform as part of the deal it appears they’re injecting a s**tload of money into the future production of Who though how much creative control  hasn’t been actually been specified, personally I hope the BBC are keeping overall control and I don’t think RDT would stand for too much interference.

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@oblique having read the articles especially the RT article which seems to have down played Disney having overly too much content control and emphasised that the deal is more about them taking over the overseas distribution of Who. Now whilst I may have issue with the apparent domination of the streaming  side of the entertainment business Disney seems to be embarking on, as I think I’ve stated  else where there may be positives in this for both the who production  team and the BBC in that this brings  funding to the show and irrespective of everyone’s feelings on how the BBC is funded the next few years are likely to be tough.It also will possibly provide a larger audience base especially outside of the UK where Who is more of an institution, which in part may help prevent Disney trying to change the the look and overall content. Let’s be frank Disney have had a history of trying to “famlifying” shows content when they’ve taken over or have become involved in existing shows but Who at its core has always been a family orientated show and let’s face it who wasn’t that little  kid behind the settee at some point😉 so Disney shouldn’t have a problem. As for the GFR article it seemed to be more about hyping up fan reaction than actual facts.

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@oblique a complete clean slate in Who would be next to impossible as the Doctor is the sum of his previous regenerations. The whole concept of the Timelord renegade, and the Doctor is technically a renegade of his race, is that his past has shaped him/her, in the doctors case it’s produced a personality that will nearly always try to help those in need of his/her help. What the Regeneration process does seem to do is highlight different aspects of the Doctor’s personality thus making each Doctor different but the same.( I really hope that makes sense). Also I think RTD has too much invested in the NuWho era and too much fan respect to be doing  a reset so to speak. Also the fan base for who would never forgive him if he was to entirely dump the past. Yes I agree I personally would prefer for there to be creation of new villains and less reliance on the old reliable enemies like the Daleks and Cybermen and the Master. In part though it may be that because they have been fan favourites there has been so much reliance on them to be the big bad.

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@translatorcircuit I’m sorry are you trying to be purposely provocative or do you live on a different planet you’re comparing totally different types of programming that appeal to different demographics Doctor Who appeals to a different and niche subset of people than those that would have been watching Strictly Come Dancing which frankly probably has a wider appeal ( though personally I’m not a fan) as it is a “celebrity” reality program which is likely attract a wider hence probably a bigger audience. Your implication that the viewers who then switched to other channels as sick is frankly preposterous they are not sick they just wanted to watch something else the BBC has no control over the viewers this is not a police state, and your rants over series lengths and the fact that actors such as David Tennant and Jodie Whittaker had other commitments so they only made the Specials for their final years the BBC obviously wanted to keep them in the show until they could be written out, sometimes an actor’s decision to leave a show may happen between season so the specials route may have been an accommodation come to by the production company and the actors to keep them on board until they were “written out”.

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@translatorcircuit I’m sorry but I find some of your comments about the cast bit offensively ageist just because an actor or actress has aged from their original times on the show doesn’t mean they can’t be in it now yes Janet Fielding(Tegan)  has aged but in part that was supposed to be their part of the plot remember it’s supposed to be 40+ years since Tegan was left by the Doctor and 30+ for Sophie Aldred(Ace)  I’m sure that in 40 years you will look different from what you look like today, and as for Paul McGann yes he looks older than his one main TV outing as the Doctor but so did the other pre gap Doctors except for David Bradley who was reprising his role as the HartnellDoc now Chibnall could have had some CGI magic done using the actors and made them look like their original appearances but to me that would have been wrong.

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Well it’s not as if ?Celestial powers haven’t been involved with  the Doctor before The White and Black Guardians for example. And yes RTD does lie but he’s generally been a bit more subtle about it in the past.

 

 

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Since you’re bonkerising @brewski I’m suspecting the regeneration into TennantDoc14 (it’s been confirmed in an interview with RTD that the new TennantDoc is going to the14th regen and Gnuti is regen15)  has been caused by a combination of the efforts of Jodiedoc to reverse the forced regeneration into the masterdoc and some kind of outside cosmic  influence perhaps by the Neil Patrick Harris character that is assumed to be the Celestial Toymaker. Also given that we now know the 60th Specials are all going to be broadcast in November of next year I suspect they are all going to be one story a bit like Tennant original 2 part exit special the End of Time. In fact I suspect we’ll find out that because of the events involved in the Centenary Special that the new Tennant14 regen is unstable which will lead to the ultimate regen into Gnutidoc.

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@bluesqueakpip I think Dan’s early exit probably was in part John Bishops availability as I seem to recall he has quite a hectic engagement schedule, also I was always a bit surprised when it was announced he was becoming a regular companion initially and that this would be an issue. It was pretty much the same issue I foresaw when Bradley Walsh was bought in when Jodie first took over, he is basically too busy other work wise to be able to commit long term. Getting his exit out the way early on in the story obviously allowed Chibnall to make more of the Yas/Doctor interaction. The way they made his exit actually allows for periodic return of companions easier with the “companion support group” though we all know the Doctors reluctance to return to old companions.

 

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@nerys my initial response when I heard about the BBC’s deal with Disney+ to distribute Who world wide outside of the uk and Ireland was horror, in part because this felt like Disney trying to buy up a successful “franchise” to add to its portfolio.  However on reflection and having watched several u-tube who  commentators  channels and the overall positivity the statement has bought about the BBC may have had some valid reasoning in moving/selling  the distribution rights to Disney+; 1. It actually improves and widens viewing potential and therefore the fan base for Who, 2. As @bluesqueakpip indicated the no doubt large cash input Disney will be forking out will be offsetting the production costs but this may work out in the fans favour in that longer seasons may end up in the offing and guarantees funding for the program. It may also be the BBCs attempt to simplify all the complex distribution rights and deals under one banner worldwide.

 

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It’s been confirmed that the 3 60th anniversary Specials will all be in November 2023 so I’m assuming they’re doing something like Tennants 1st sendoff  The end of Time  Story as a 3 part special and giving us a story that runs for about 2-3 hrs in total. Wether it will say be over 1 weekend or 3 consecutive weekends will obviously yet to be announced. On another note evidently the new TennantDoc isDoc14 and Gnutidoc is going to be Doc15 according to an interview with RTD.

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@blenkinsopthebrave I thought Tennants return for the 60th anniversary specials had been pretty well established. Though the reason for the re/degeneration to TennantDoc has not yet  been explained and how this is going to lead to this finally leads to the regeneration into Gnutidoc ( yes I know I’ve bolloxed the spelling), though I do  have some theories as to this which I will discuss once I do not feel I am giving too much episode content for those who still want to watch the episode 😉

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Are we going do a non spoilery content in posts for the first 24/48 hrs to allow all our members who want to watch the special especially as I believe they haven’t done a simulcast across the counties like in other major who specials. Not that I haven’t thoughts and theories to spout but it only feels fair to our overseas members

 

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Well my first gut feelings is that was better than I thought it would be, not saying more at the moment to avoid spoilers, and need more time to cogitate and digest it more

 

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Have a correction to make I stated in my earlier post that I had thought that the sonic screwdriver had been introduced by the Pertweedoc  but I was in error, though I wasn’t entirely sure when I said it. It was actually introduced in the TroughtonDoc story Terror from the Deep apparently, finally got around to googling it as it was nagging at me.

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@dentauthurdent you’re right the whomobile was a different vehicle. It was a futuristic looking triangular “hovercraft’” type single or two  person vehicle as I remember, I think they used it in a couple of stories though his “Bessie” souped up vintage car was Pertweedocs main non Tardis transport. Just as a point of interest I seem to remember they also used a micro helicopter similar to the one used in the Bond film “You only live twice “. You have to remember the early Pertwee era was when they experimented with making Dr Who more “Bondesque” it’s also when they introduced the Doctor using Venusian Karate and I think it was also (though not entirely sure) when the sonic screwdriver was introduced. As I said this was the era when they attempted to make the show more action and gadget oriented.

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@dentarthurdent have you seen the Flux series not to give any spoilers but The Division is explained in full during Jodies last “full” series. In the main Chibbers  tenure as show runner has been extremely lack-luster. Yes there have been a few good episodes but in the main his helming has been very divisive in the view of a lot of who fans. In my own opinion he tried to alter too much of the established lore, plus I think there was a degree of push back by some fans when Jodie was appointed as the Doctor. Overall this had led a prefect storm of circumstances that has meant his tenure just wasn’t up scratch so to speak.

 

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@blenkinsopthebrave 👀 well if true that feels great and as one of the still surviving original cast is certainly deserved as either part of the BBC Centenary for one of its iconic series’s though that puts him in JWs departure story, and he would have certainly been a deserved cameo as part of the 60th celebrations.

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I am sad to pass on the news that Bernard Cribbins has died today at the age of 92. I’m sure all of us would like to pass  on our collective condolences to his family, Bernard was a great comedic character actor who has given us all memorable characters over 70 years from his Carry-on roles to his role as Wilfred Mott -not his first role on Who

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@blenkinsopthebrave well as I said I hope the hell it falls through it would be a sad day for the who fandom

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Ok this is speculation as far as I can see, but for those of you who follow YouTube commentators on Who especially Tharis (who in the past I’ve noticed  does tend to be fairly balanced in his posts) it has been reported by him that there has been an article ( I’m not sure where) which reportedly has Disney in negotiations with the Beeb to Stream Dr Who from the next season. In a lot of ways I sure as hell hope this is either false or falls through. Personally I can’t see the Beeb giving up the rights to worldwide streaming when it has its own BBC worldwide services, but given the way Disney have seemingly appear to have  been aggressively buying up the rights to screen various series on their Disney+ platform sometimes at the expense of the traditional fan base ability to view their favourite shows.

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@brewski possibly though I tend to agree with the general consensus that Harris may be playing the Celestial Toymaker who as I remember is one of the celestial immortal figures much like the black and white guardians . Having said that it may be the Trickster may just be another name for the Celestial Toymaker. Also it all depends on if  or by how much RTD is going to roll back on the Doctor being the Timeless Child, cause RTD a lot of respect for Who lore and in the PreGap era,  especially in the McCoy era the were hints that he had been known as the Trickster

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@dentarthurdent hmm yes for me Survival always felt a bit incomplete I think in part because there was never a what happens next  as that was the last pre gap story before the  2000 Who  film and then Post Gap series start. But I agree McCoys final season did have a definite vibe with there being hints then that there was more to the Doctors past that we then knew. In part I think this may be where Chibbers got his idea for the timeless child as there were hints that the Doctor was much older or from a time in Gallifrey’s ancient past comparable to Rassilon’s and Omegas time making him some kind of 3rd Founding Timelord. I think this was expanded on in one or two of the inter gap years who books which are not necessarily considered canonical and referred to as the Trickster.

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@janetteb It was a joint BBC/overseas venture not sure who the non Beeb studio was. It actually started out not too bad and as you say McGann actually made a good stab  at being the Doctor in the movie as I said it was some of the more non-cannonical story line that caused some fans to kick up a fuss that and the “love” interest and americanising that seemed to make it less than ideal. As you say when McGan reprised his role for the Night of the Doctor short he made an excellent Doctor. In part it’s a pity they can’t do a retrospective Who series with McGann reprising his role and filling in the ‘missing years’ , though depending on what the 60th anniversary special/s turns out to contain may be a past doctor will be able to come back

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@janetteb I think it was me who referred to the 2 60’s Dr Who movies as being Hollywood as I remember they were made at Elstree Studios under their banner so that was my mistake. My referencing to them being Hollywood was more in the style that Sci-fi films of the period even from Britain seemed to follow the U.S. model of what I would call B-Movie Hollywood style that the science fiction genera seemed to be treated. As you say they were essentially the tv series stories truncated into if I remember a right as 90 minute format. Also they tried to simplify the even then limited Who lore by not even referencing the fact that the Doctor wasn’t human but had Cushing portray him more as a brilliant if absentminded professor type . I  think it was a similar mistake that was made with 2000 Dr Who movie given that it had tried in part to re-write the Doctors history as being part human, as a lot  Who fans  took exception to this bit of non-cannonal history. Don’t get me wrong I enjoyed McGanns portrayal of the Doctor and would have loved to see a series launched off the back of the movie.

 

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@blenkinsopthebrave surely you and mrs blenkinsop have also seen the first “Dr Who” by Cushing Dr Who and the Daleks which much like the Dalek invasion of the earth reduced the original tv version to another formulaic 60’s sci-fi film with heavy comedy element. I always have thought it was a shame as I felt Cushing could have made an excellent Doctor oven the right script, but given the “Hollywood” treatment of  Who to make the Doctor appear more of a bumbling  scientist rather than the  brilliant Timelord we all love and know from the series it kind of made it more of a comedy sci-fi like you have said about the Dalek Invasion of Earth.

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@dentarthurdent I think I remember reading somewhere the original concept for the show was to give a platform where science could be explored in a fictional story telling way. I can quite understand your frustration about historical set stories it’s much like when I watch medical based tv like Casualty as a nurse who’s worked in an A+E I groan at the multiple high drama medical dilemmas happening every episode when the actuality is in the main more prosaic and mundane

 

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@dentarthurdent I think this will probably mean another hard reset companion wise much like Jodie’s run I might be wrong but I just can’t see the chemistry working for  Yaz and see her staying when she loses Jodiedoc though I suppose Dan might just stay but we will see. As for this being the first Doctor of colour I’ve seen in some articles   which is actually incorrect as in reality Jo Martin actually holds that distinction (which I’ll get back to in a moment ) does not hold any issues as it had already been established that timelords can become any race/colour. Going back to Jo Martin as I was reading the article in The Sun there was a comment about Jo being and Alternate Doctor and I wondered do they know something and have let it slip.

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I think the main problem with these specials there seems to be no link between them. The New year special appeared to be a fairly good start , but The Legend of the Sea Devils has been a bit of a “meh” episode themeticly. At least with Tennants  final year of specials there was the Timelord Victorious theme. Chibbers had a perfect theme he could have carried through from the end of Flux with what I am calling the Spirit of Time telling the Doctor her time was ending and he could have explored this which in part it looked like he was doing. To be honest I think it would have been better if the baton had been passed back to RTD for Jodies final/regeneration episode because in part I  have a feeling that Chibbers has in part been purposely steering the Who franchise to its demise.

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@craig @nerys same sentiments here hopefully once RTD has retaken the reins and we see the results interest and participation will pick up again. BTW I think I’ve had the same spammer leaving me messages.and @bean-powered please  post in the right room we’re not that scary are we

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Hmmm that was the word I was looking for when I posted my initial response to the episode “underwhelming” Chibbers seems to have epitomised that feeling in the main.

 

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Is it me or is this another case of Chibbers almost giving us a good episode then missing the mark.

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@janetteb CGI  seems to have become  Chibbers trait de jour especially in the last few years. It’s almost  like he’s a chef discovering a new ingredient and uses it in everything.

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I’ve been trying  work out when the next series will actually be aired. Now we know we have 2 more specials by Jodie with the last/regeneration episode I think to be aired as part of the 100th BBC celebrations in October. That unfortunately looks like there will be no Christmas or New Year Special as the only Special we have have news of is the Doctor Who 60th special. Now at the moment we we do know that special is going to be a Multi-Doctor story but I got to wondering does that definitely mean we are going have to wait till after that for the series to start or are we going to get the series first. Yes we do appear to know that Tennant and I think Smith are going to be in the Special but just because they haven’t announced the new Doc will be in it doesn’t mean he/she won’t. I had the thought that RTD may opt to have the next series start  Easter 2023 as that would be the anniversary of the launch of post-gap Who plus would give us a season with the new Doctor before the Aniversary special. If the new season is to start after the special it gives us a few  issues 1. How do they give the new Doctor  a decent introduction and 2. Does this mean we have to wait till 2024 for the new season. Personally I would prefer a pre special season as the only way a post Special season would work for me would be for the Special to somehow to be outside of the main Who timeline and being a forgotten adventure with the past Doctors and their memories being wiped in a timey wimey fashion.

 

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@missy Although I think Chris would have made a good choice as the Doctor I agree I don’t think he will be the prime choice as I think his time has possibly passed. Personally I think it will probably be an actor or actress who will be more of a left-field  choice as was Jodie. I suspect it may be a slightly older choice than the fan favourites are currently being suggested, someone between the ages of say Matt and Peter Capaldi. Of course they might go for an older female Doctor though I’m not sure who they would pick, to give us a female equivalent say a Hartnelesque Doctor. If the companions are to stay it would be interesting to see what that would do with Jaz’s current relationship with the Doctor. Right time to stop the early morning pre coffee rambling.

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