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…and if all of the Claricles were born like a regular person, does that mean she was born to Gallifreyan parents at one point?  Or was Clara just randomly in the Tardis repair shop by time travel?  Did she get there by another TARDIS and that’s why she knows which TARDIS is a good choice?

@bluesqueakpip

 

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Okay, I need Clara Clarification.  I understand popping up all over the Doctor’s time stream, but what I don’t get is how does she come into being as a “Claricle” because being born seems complicated.  How is she born to parents who do not share her DNA? Seems like I am missing something.  Any thoughts?

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@bluesqueakpip Thank you.  Another question, why doesn’t Danny have any recognition of her at all when she goes back to the restaurant a second time?  Especially when she mentioned the name Rupert?  How come he doesn’t remember that?  And my problem with the two Clara’s at the same time is I thought that would cause horrible things to occur, like in Father’s Day.  Is it just that her time in the restaurant was so short that it didn’t cause any issues?  I guess that simple explanation is the best I can come up.  Still don’t understand why Danny by the second trip to the restaurant didn’t recognise her.

Also, I wonder about how the word “listen”<span style=”line-height: 1.5;”> got on the chalkboard.  Did the Doctor go back in time and write it or was it someone else?  </span>

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@bluesqueakpip The journey of the soldier toy never bothered me because I saw it exactly the way you do.  It’s simply ends up with the Doctor.  My thoughts are more preoccupied with the two Clara characters in the episode.  When Clara enters the restaurant for the second time, and sees herself walk away, is this the moment original Clara disappears?  No, because that Clara goes home and goes traveling with the Doctor, so she can be in that exact spot.  What happened to the Clara walking away?  Does she have her own alternative time line?  ‘Listen’ is so jam packed with questions like these that it has become one of my favourite episodes.

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<span class=”useratname”>@jphamlore</span>  Yes, any site that uses the Rider Waite deck is going to be the most classical.   My training was from my mother who believed the Tarot told an ancient story tied to King Arthur, The Fisher King and most of all Christ.  She did not use them as divination, but as scholarly study and a way to use archetype.  She was a part of a group that saw this story being the hidden story of our sentient and soulful existence.  I met some of the authors of famous books on this subject as a child and became fascinated myself.  I studied the cards from Jungian perspective, looking at them as subconscious archetype.  I also continued studying on my own time the books my mom had in our home and she schooled me on her beliefs and theories surrounding this story.  She believed that the Tarot kept the true story alive in the medieval days when this story would been burned and destroyed in book form.  It was seen as a game so harmless.

So I have never studied it online, since my schooling in it was before there was a web/online available to everyone.  My mom was fond of the Rider Waite deck for it’s traditional approach.  Some newer decks can get very occult or new age, and this tends to water down the universal symbolism and often reduces it to la la drum circle, tantric sex, healing crystal stuff.   That’s not the kind of Tarot we are referencing, that is a type of Tarot popularized by people who believe in astrology.

Let me know if you find a site that is user friendly.  I will look myself and get back to you.  (:

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@drben I also noticed that the tarot references in this season are meant to be noticed and almost put out as clues.  If they were there before that was just good sleuthing on your part.  But the titles in this two parter alone are almost a request to pay attention.  This whole two part episode seemed to be the Major Arcana 1&2 plus the Minor Arcana wands.  I think that may imply four Queens and four Kings who will manipulate his journey toward ‘The World.’ The issues with his screwdriver and Missy’s random stick would lean more towards her being the negative and positive influences of the Queen of Wands.  This whole two parter was all fire and wands, so it makes sense.  The Queen of Wands even has a familiar next to her throne.  I also thought the dog referenced in the Clara joke Missy made about the couple looked oddly like the dog drawn traditionally as the faithful companion to the Fool.  It all seems very deliberate this time.

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@purofilion    I really don’t think Clara is related to the Doctor, nor do I think the Massie Williams character is.  Just for clarification.

I do on the other hand believe he play out the tarot cycle all the way to ‘The World’ which would clearly symbolize Gallifrey on his journey.

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@purofilion Actually it was a ballet teacher.  I was the one with the scary ballet teacher.  It taught me that people are extremely unique and complex.  I thought she was cruel and one time when she humiliated me about my feet I ran out crying and swore in my mind she was a psychopath who shouldn’t work with young people.  Turned out when we became colleagues years later that she thought she was doing me a good turn.  She thought it was better to harden me at home than to send me off innocent and soft to a big city ballet company.  Oddly enough, as a colleague she is very kind.  She did jam my feet under the piano to stretch them and left me there like that for an hour and when I got up I couldn’t walk properly.  Naturally, I thought she was heartless, until I found out her motivation years later.  Russian ballet teachers are known for this.  It’s terrible and I completely hate that style of teaching, but in the end her motivations were complex.

Missy seems way more screwed up, but maybe she is really trying to get a point across? Not that I’m saying she is, but it’s a possibility.

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@lisa @juniperfish Watching ‘The Witch’s Familiar’ again I started to wonder about the sisters of Karn.  Like Missy they are unpredictable.  Maybe Missy works for them, maybe she’s the familiar?  Just a random idea while in bed with bronchitis.   (;

 

 

 

 

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@lisa  This is also where my mind was going.  I think you’re right.

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I’m a terrible writer.  I didn’t mean to say in any way I thought Clara was related to anyone, I don’t think she is.  I do think she’s CAL, but that’s a separate subject and I don’t think she’s related to anyone like Missy.  Clearly I’m not good at conveying my thoughts.  I was not condoning or putting down “tough love”  just pointing out it happens all the time and people are complex, and good characters are complex, and it’s hard to say what Missy was doing.  That’s all really, no theories, no judgements,  just saying it may not be completely black or white.

 

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@arbutus  Absolutely loved your breakdown of Season 8.  I really enjoyed the season and still go back and watch a few.   I didn’t see the pattern until you pointed it out.  There really was something for everyone.

@purofilion “I think this reminds me of why we come together from all over the world to talk about this little show with big ideas. We debate, we argue, we laugh and learn. I know I might sound a bit twee but it’s great to know you all and to have learnt such wonderful things from all of you.”  Loved this quote from you.

 

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@bendubz11  Sent  (:

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Thanks!  (:
<div class=”bbp-reply-author”><span class=”useratname”>@bendubz11</span></div>

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@bendubz11 What are HADS?

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<span class=”useratname”>@bendubz11</span> I can private message you if you promise to never repost and promise it will not spoil anything for you.

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@bluesqueakpip Makes sense, it’s the Tardis version of playing dead.

There are a lot of episodes where random things came out of those pockets.  The squirt gun was a favorite.

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@geoffers

Agree, what a start!  It’s going to be a great season.  Also agree that the screwdriver will make a comeback, just like hugs and jelly babies.  I don’t think it’s possible for the show to eliminate the screwdriver yet, mainly because we still have not seen the future version handed to River in Forest of the Dead.

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@blenkinsopthebrave great quote!  @mudlark completely agree.

The show is complex and creative, just like children

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@lisa   Yes, that was Clara at the library with the tenth for sure.  (:

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@lisa  Yes, born and raised.  The tarot theory is on The Witch’s Familiar thread.  I have a much more complicated theory involving a lot of the Whoverse, tarot, Atlantis, Egypt, Greece, Rome, etc.  but I am not a great writer, plus my last theory on Silence in Library and Forest of the Dead I posted not long after Asylum of the Daleks came out and was immediately picked up and turned into an article a few days later and lives in cyberspace forever more.  My concern with that is that it became a public theory.  This is going to sound weird, but I feel like it’s one thing to obsess over our theories here and other threads with us crazy Whovains who just have to talk about it while we wait for the next episode, but when the theory hits the general public it isn’t fun anymore. I felt guilty. Like parents can sit around and talk about Santa not being real, but telling a kid Santa isn’t real feels crappy.  Not quite the analogy I want, but basically I felt bad after.  Maybe more like cutting someone off mid joke and telling the punchline yourself.  Not sure, how to explain but I feel Moffat has weaved these incredible story lines and I ruin the impact by telling the outcome.  BBC has such amazing artists who bring Doctor Who to life.  The music, acting and videography create a visceral reaction that telling it in a post can’t, so when you get to the reveal on the screen, it feels anti-climatic.

I have this crazy theory, this huge over arc of a theory, but it feels like a mega spoiler.  I can easily talk about little things, like the tarot part, but the other theories make me feel like letting the CAL & River theory out of the bag.  Like I knew the boy was Davros, but I can only imagine the impact if I hadn’t figured it out, so much more fun to be surprised.

Can send you a private message with some of it if you are really curious, can promise not to repost and you are sure knowing wouldn’t spoil your fun.

I could be wrong too, about my big theory, about CAL and River, then all my stressing over people knowing would have been silly.   The CAL theory has been out there for awhile so talking about it here is just fun.  It’s always different with crazy fans because we get excited about everything.  (:

Leave you with this lovely thought about Forest of the Dead “The only water in the forest is the river”  So she can flow in and out.  Just saying. (:

 

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@bendubz11  Right?  Silence in the Library was the only Doctor Who episode to creep me out.  It’s just I can’t remember which episode I put the theories under, it could be either one, since I found things to support the big theory in both.

I think Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead are two of the best Doctor Who of all time.

I’m loving this new season too.  The Witch’s Familiar was awesome.

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@jphamlore  You’re right, parenting is the wrong word, hazing or training would have been better choices.

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Welcome @tommo  (:

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@bendubz11 You may be right, it’s on one of the two.  I see it in my mind as one big amazing episode, so I forget.  (:

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@mudlark  Thank you, yes I was concerned, but only because I hate that style, and I suffered under a cruel tyrant of a teacher, only to find out decades later as colleagues she felt that, “it was better to be hard and cruel while I was still young and at home safe then to find out later alone in New York or London that our profession was competitive, cruel and scary.” She traumatized and embarrassed me (once jammed my feet under a piano) and then later in life as a gentle colleague tells me it was for my protection?  No, but you are right, Missy seems psychopathic and comes off devoid of empathy.  True, but is she a psychopath, or a “high functioning sociopath” with possible hope of redemption from her early childhood trauma, much like Davros?  It does seem to be the question this season.  Are our choices what makes us good?  Are we born good or bad?  Is their a glimmer of goodness buried in every sentient being?  How much comes from deep fear?  How much is just wired that way, like a Dalek or Cyberman?  Does Danny, the Brigadier and Dalek Caan provide evidence that wiring and chemistry can be won over?  Are we our labels?  Are they absolute? How do we as empathetic beings handle the broken?  Hard questions this season we are all left to personally contemplate.  Hardest question this season brings up is the boy Davros question.  I tried to contemplate if I was sent back in time to kill the baby Hitler, what would I do?  I couldn’t, but that isn’t necessarily the most moral or best answer.  What a season we are about to journey through!  These are important questions with windows into ourselves.

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@juniperfish  I was warned by the emperor that there was indeed spoiler info in it.  I honestly had no idea, and don’t want to accidentally do it again.

The lengthy theory lives on SitL, but in short I think all of this Clara trapped in the wi-fi, trapped in a Dalek three time is a foreshadow of her final destiny about the fragment of herself that lives on: CAL

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@juniperfish You’re completely right about the rebirth portion of ‘The Hanged Man’ and even though I think she will die a martyr death now, thanks to Moffat’s little hint, but I think she will be reborn in a sense.  Not necessarily as family, but if you look on my SitL theory you will see what I mean.  Don’t know if dropping my SitL theory here would be considered a spoiler.

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@blenkinsopthebrave  Ha ha!  True, sunglasses indoors has a prat feel to it.  I always assume the person is just hungover. (:

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@mudlark  Oh, no, no, no, I do not believe any good can come of this form of parenting or teaching.  Was in no single way making a judgement call on if this particular brand of teaching was good or bad, I was merely pointing out that Missy is a twisted psychopath and her mind this might be her twisted and damaged attempt to make Clara better and stronger.  Most Russian ballet teachers are terrifying and completely punitive, my point was that Russian ballet teachers often sees their approach as helpful, I was not implying that Russian ballet teachers were sane.   Missy is terrible to her, and by no means would anyone sane treat another like this.  My point wasn’t to praise “tough love” it was to point out I’ve seen tiger moms and ballet teachers torment their students and children only to find out they truly think it will keep them safe and prepared.  I personally abhor this style, I was merely pointing out that it happens often enough and it can be complex, especially if there is mental illness involved.

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@purofilion Teachers are modern day martyrs for sure.  We tend to use the teacher’s love for their students by treating them like crap and overworking them.  Why?  Because most people know that the teacher’s heart bleeds for their students so it is known that they will sacrifice their own life, time and health.   Very Clara.  I don’t know why people bag on Clara?  Maybe it stems from their societal conditioning to bag on martyr types?

@barnable As soon as I heard the Dalek say “mercy” I thought of the Dalek from Big Bang.  It stuck out to me even then.  Maybe it was Clara somehow?  That would be terrible.

 

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@phaseshift Thank you!  It was a great read, very thoughtful and in depth and the first tarot/archetype read I’ve had concerning the Doctor outside of my own theories.  It was totally different from my theories on who from the tarot each represents plus how his journey is progressing through, but we all agree the Doctor is being represented by card 0, no number, nulset, the Fool.  The Fool who is ignorant yet wise, is he stepping off the cliff because he trusts taking his faithful companion (the dog which Moffat even managed to reference Clara as in TMA)  or is he just not seeing the danger?  It represents the constant beginning and end.  Very Doctor.  He cycles through with each regeneration.

I guess what surprised me about the two first titles in series 9 and so much of what went on in TWF was that no one was talking about Moffat’s absolutely obvious point to the major arcana in this season.  It’s barely a theory this time, since it seems that Moffat is making it so obvious.

 

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I do not see Clara as the Empress.  There are two schools of thought on the symbolism.  The archetype, Jungian version would say all the cards are aspects of the Doctor, not just the humanoid and male cards.  That would make him the Magician and the Witch.  It is the idea, much like regeneration itself, that the cards represent aspects of the self, and the people we become on our journey as we cycle up through our journey into a more developed self.  The other school is the idea that they represent the person on the journey and their spiritual guides or people and circumstances for the Fool’s tempering.   This version explains that the story of the tarot can be out of order, but each lesson must still be learned along the path.  Both follow the concept that as the Fool is always cycling around this journey.  It is not a line, but a circle, and therefore their is no final completion, only many journey’s that temper the soul.  Much like the time wimey Whoverse.

Following the second school of thought, most would assume Clara would be the next card, the Empress, but Moffat made it very clear that she is ‘The Hanged Man’ which tells us she will die and martyrs’ death.  Of course, this is inline with her character, since she is fearless in her sacrifices for others that she loves.  Sad to realise, but I think we must prepare for her to play out the traditional Hang Man’s story.

I don’t think Moffat gave us the visual of her as the Hanged Woman as an accident in TWF.

 

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Yes!  Exactly @juniperfish I think this is exactly what Moffat is doing.

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@blenkinsopthebrave I don’t see the glasses as cool, I see them as another way to hide his face.  Also, I live in Silicon Valley, so it just seems like a incognito version of Google glass.

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@lisa Cool deck.  🙂   The Doctor definitely is the Fool according to the stories concerning his journey.  The rest of the deck is mostly fun.  Missy as the High Priestess is actually a very intriguing concept.  Having studied the history and archetype since I was a child and being surrounded by the Arthurian writers my mother hung out with in my youth, I would say she is the High Priestess in many ways.  The High Priestess is often depicted as Isis between the pillars of dark and light.  She is an extremely complicated figure, unlike the Empress who is just as important, but less complicated.

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I have a very lengthy, complicated and possibly crazy theory involving the origin of the tarot, the Greeks, Italy, Atlantis, Sabine, Karn, Egypt and the Doctor himself and his true name and it fits in rather neatly into it.  🙂

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@juniperfish

Loved reading your write up about redemption!  Very insightful.

In the tarot there is a metaphoric journey of the Fool, which the Doctor refers to himself as.  The first card in the numbered deck is the Magician, the second card is the High Priestess.  The stories behind each card and where they are in the Fool’s journey completely correlate to the Doctor’s journey.  My assumption is that he is on the age old quest of the Fool, and knowing the Whoverse, the tarot has always been about him and his journey using physchic knowledge plus legend.

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@mudlark I thought Missy was just expressing tough love?  😉  There are some schools of thought that being extremely tough physically and mentally on a student is a sign of love.  Ever observed a student of a Russian ballet teacher when that teacher sees promise in his student?  The teacher will torment the chosen one and be incredibly nice to all the students who have absolutely no future in ballet.  Clara is assumed the witch’s familiar, so I can see this as putting her through the paces and forcing her to be stronger, better and at the same time with a hint cat like jealousy over the Doctor.

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My IBM dad raised me on Doctor Who and my hippie mom on tarot, so there is a chance I’m completely reading into this and it’s complete rubbish.

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Of course, years ago I was the first to mention my CAL theory on a forum and now I see it all over the net.  Maybe it is my job in the time loop to get another idea moving again; set the flame in my little hippie California town.  I raised by a hippie who looked like Romana 2, so naturally I would be the one to see the correlations.  I was literally raised on Sabine and Arthurian legends.  My mother even co-authored a book on the subject.

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I have checked every Who forum and article and no one has mentioned the tarot correlation?  It can’t be just me.

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@braddy There is little doubt in my mind that Davros will go looking now

@bluesqueakpip @purofilion The only time I recall a Dalek asking for mercy was the Dalek in the Big Bang asking it of River.  It would be incredibly cruel to find out someone was in there that was important to the Doctor or River, including one of Clara’s fragments of herself.

 

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@doctorcapaldi I think the look was about when Missy/Master turned all the people he had been taking care of at the end of the universe into Toclafane, or the dead into Cybermen.  M/M is just like that.   Doctor know M\M would do the same thing to the Time Lords given the chance.

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Yep, she is a full upload sharing space in her mind folder, she is an external drive because the hard drive CAL was full, so she is not dead, she is just sharing space with CAL.

I can’t wait for tonight!  This story arc is already awesome. Skweee!

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@bendubz11 Good point, really good point.   I would call it a bookstore where I am from, so I completely overlooked that, but I am Californian @purofilion so I would most likely say, “Dude, where’s the bookstore” or just say point me to a coffee shop, since most bookshops in SF are coffee shops.  😉    My dream was to work and live in Great Britain, but it was too hard to receive the right to work.

<span style=”line-height: 1.5;”>This may be the most important episode to review for the story arc we are now in.  FotD/SitL are actually master works and brilliantly done on every level.  There is so much in this episode yet to be resolved.  </span>

 

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Well, most likely they are dead and a catalyst for the Doctor going back to save them, or Missy, who clearly survived last time by using her vortex manipulator, used it again and Clara’s was a slave to hers so off they pop when and where the crazy Mary Poppins decides.  Of course, then Clara would have vanished when Missy did.  So, dead.

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Wow!  Viewing down?  Their loss.  That was a jaw dropping episode.  Way to start a new season.  I feel like kid now waiting for the second half.

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Sorry, I’m writing while on video chat.  What I was trying to say is that someone at the BBC has to apply to have a non-citizen come to work at the BBC.  That is hardly ever done.   So I gave up on the dream of living in Cardiff.

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@purofilion Wow, @jimthefish He is incredibly lucky.  I’m going to see the 3D recap and I’m over the moon.  I seriously feel like a kid, all giddy to see what Moffat has in waiting for us.

I’m guessing that @jimthefish lives in England, which I’m also jealous of.  I tried to work at the BBC, but unless someone there applies for a work visa, a non-citizen doesn’t stand a chance.  I was willing to do anything they wanted too, but it’s all red tape.  🙁

I have to just be happy that Doctor Who is available here, and not delayed, like Downton Abbey.

Yes, RTD also rocks!  Doctor Who fans are lucky when it comes to incredible writers.

 

 

 

 

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