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2 November 2015 at 19:05 #46190
@ludivine I wish! If I ever get a ticket to London and a place to crash where people don’t mind two little Wholigans boys in tow and one overgrown boy known as my husband, then I will meet you there. (;
Actually, my real dream is to move to Cardiff and work for the BBC, but I’ve never figured out how to make myself a desired asset to their team. I am not a British citizen, so I would practically have to be requested. I’m a terrible writer, can’t swim and don’t speak Welsh. Haven’t figured out how to make a past professional ballerina and current science teacher plus ballet company director of any interest to their respected team. All my skills are ballet production and science. Any ideas? (;
2 November 2015 at 18:22 #46186Haven’t had a chance to read anything on this thread yet, and I just got around to watching the episode early this morning. Halloween is a big deal where I live and I was distracted by getting my mini Dalek and mini 11th Doctor out the door for trick or treat. (:
Appreciate the theme of the episode, but could not connect to it.
My problem is with the characterization of the Doctor and Clara. It just didn’t feel like them, the way Harry Potter Movie #4 didn’t feel like Hogwarts and the characters seemed flat and distant. It was also highly predictable, like the police woman and Clara Zygons. This is random, but also not a fan of Clara’s outfit or lipstick, also seemed out of character. It was well written, and I am on the side of the message, but it had that disconnect, much like Harry Potter #4 where you left the theater thinking that the characters may have been called Dumbledore, Harry and Hermione, but it didn’t FEEL like them, Hogwarts didn’t feel magical and the story never held you. This episode left me in a similar way; there were no visceral moments, no “ah ha” moments and I was never drawn in. I liked it, because it was Doctor Who, plus one of my favorite Doctors, but it was “meh” for the most part, especially after the kick off of the episodes that proceeded it.
On the positive, I am on board with the message, and many props for Doctor Who having the courage to out our human madness. The Dali Lama sums it up well:
The Reality of War
“Of course, war and the large military establishments are the greatest sources of violence in the world. Whether their purpose is defensive or offensive, these vast powerful organizations exist solely to kill human beings. We should think carefully about the reality of war. Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous – an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that war is criminal or that accepting it is criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering.War is like a fire in the human community, one whose fuel is living beings. I find this analogy especially appropriate and useful. Modern warfare waged primarily with different forms of fire, but we are so conditioned to see it as thrilling that we talk about this or that marvelous weapon as a remarkable piece of technology without remembering that, if it is actually used, it will burn living people. War also strongly resembles a fire in the way it spreads. If one area gets weak, the commanding officer sends in reinforcements. This is throwing live people onto a fire. But because we have been brainwashed to think this way, we do not consider the suffering of individual soldiers. No soldiers want to be wounded or die. None of his loved ones wants any harm to come to him. If one soldier is killed, or maimed for life, at least another five or ten people – his relatives and friends – suffer as well. We should all be horrified by the extent of this tragedy, but we are too confused.” – Dali Lama
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2 November 2015 at 16:26 #46176@lisa Brilliant! Remember ME!
<span class=”useratname”>@countscarlioni That was a heartbreaking song, and certainly could be the direction we are going.
</span>26 October 2015 at 17:26 #45603@pedant Sorry about the misspelling. (: “Or simply filling in for Clara’s mother. Or offed her….” That is a creepy thought. She does look smug in that selfie. Yikes. That is more in line with my Nightmare Child concept.
26 October 2015 at 17:20 #45599@drben Yes, not sure if it means she is Clara’s mother or she is making a point that she is in control of Clara’s mother.
The face being different with Ellie/Clara’s mother that the Doctor saw could easily be manipulated by technology. Her voice sounded more like a speaker when she faked a man’s voice as the Knightmare. Not saying she used technology, but she was in contact with people who could have given her technology, could have been Missy or the Lion King. With accesses to technology she could have wore a hologram. By Clara’s time she may not have even needed outside help. The chip that was planted in her comes from a race where the leader could change his face at will. Maybe the chip helped amplify that power. ME would have known the Doctor would check on Clara’s origins.
Or it’s just her way of showing she has control over Clara’s mother, which works with @jphamlore theory perfectly.
26 October 2015 at 17:05 #45597@pendant Sam Swift is going to play an important role for sure. Good idea about him being the Minister of War
I tried watching Game of Thrones, I really did, but it was predictable as heck, cliche to the point of eye rolling, and from what I could tell, completely relies on blood, violence, horror and porn to keep the audience involved. Since absolutely none of those elements do anything but bore me I had to finally admit to a few close friends I would never be a fan. So, I don’t have enough experience to compare Miss William’s performance. I only saw her playing the cliche girl who wants to be more than a girl in old times, so she becomes good with a bow and arrow, blah, blah, blah. Too cliche of a part to see her abilities as an actress. I thought she did very well in Doctor Who. Not anything that stood out as great or bad, which means to me she played it just right.
26 October 2015 at 16:49 #45593@sirclockface There certainly has been enough references to believing your surroundings and activities are real, when in fact they are not, take ‘Last Christmas’ for example. So what you are saying is very possible.
@pufferfish Yes, 80’s are back, but I agree with you, it’s out of place.
You both gave me a lot to chew on while I am at work today. The idea that Clara has heading back to the nethosphere is awesome. There are so many good ideas on this site. Even the ideas that don’t turn out to happen would make awesome stories! The writers on this site should take my kids spin off series idea and get together. I’m NOT a writer, but I have good ideas and a background in science, plus I have a great memory for history, so I could be one of the idea people and the dramaturg. Basically, I will help in the background where I am most comfortable. (;
Everyone, great theories and great analysis of the theater elements. @purofilion & @bluesqueakpip
I thought the writing was excellent, and the girl who played ME did a fine job. I’m very fussy, and I sincerely enjoyed the episode. I’m honestly surprised with season 9, it has been consistently excellent and entertaining.
26 October 2015 at 03:09 #45522There has been lot of hologram use lately. What about my idea of Achildr using a hologram, especially knowing all too well the Doctor would check up on Clara’s beginnings.
The Knightmare Child is a long shot for sure, but they did bring back Davros.
26 October 2015 at 01:41 #45516@blenkinsopthebrave True, Moffat does play with us, but what about the Nightmare Child? What do you think of that theory? Same? Just a coincidence, or throwing us some fun, or could Clara become the Nightmare Child? Or even Achildr?
26 October 2015 at 01:38 #45514That is brilliant. I really like this concept. But what if Ellie really isn’t dead? Have they ever said how she died?
<span class=”useratname”>@sirclockface</span> This concept would certainly play into your Danny Pink/Orson theory.
26 October 2015 at 01:02 #45509@sirclockface Wow, that’s intense. No, I have not read that anywhere else.
26 October 2015 at 00:17 #45502….plus, I think she still has the amulet.
26 October 2015 at 00:02 #45500I just had the most horrible theory. I mean horrid. Bonkers and horrid. If Achildr is Clara’s mum, then does she become the Knightmare Child? Could this be the long feared Nightmare Child? Or is Achildr the Nightmare Child? Oh boy. Not a good theory my mind came up. But on the note about depression, long term apathy and hopelessness can make a once good person very shrewd, clever and creepy cold. The goodness in a person under extreme protection in the mind due to past hurts.
25 October 2015 at 23:28 #45498Have no idea how to post images, so sorry it’s only a link to a picture of the card.
25 October 2015 at 23:27 #4549725 October 2015 at 23:24 #45496Description of the tarot’s Strength card: “Under a golden sky, a woman gently pats a lion on its forehead and lower jaw. The woman gazes down at the lion with a peaceful smile on her face and appears to be successfully taming this wild beast. The fact that Strength is represented by a woman indicates that this card is not focused on pure physical strength. She has the infinity symbol above her head, the same symbol seen in the Magician. Her white robe is that of the innocent Fool, indicating a purity of spirit.”
It should also be noted the picture is drawn in such a way that the woman could be closing the lions mouth or opening it. My mother always pointed that out.
25 October 2015 at 23:14 #45494I said in the last episode’s discussion that I thought Achildr’s tarot card was Strength. After seeing how she handled the lion like character, I am even more sure that her card is Strength. If you grow up in the tarot tradition a card is chosen to represent you in a reading. My mother gave me Strength so I know a lot about this particular card. My mother was given the Star. I have not seen who will receive the Star tarot card yet. No one fits….yet.
25 October 2015 at 22:50 #45490@bluesqueakpip Good point. She does look smug and she is staring at the camera like she knows the Doctor will see it. Could be a message.
25 October 2015 at 22:47 #45489🙂 I’m so glad we are back on how amazing this episode was and how epic the entire season has been. Thank you @purofilion for helping us get back on topic.
I recently went through a depression, and the things ME was saying to the Doctor about being trapped living and wondering why any of us bother with this predictable cycle of death and suffering, went through me head. Her feelings of boredom, apathy, and general sense of “now what” that being 800 brought on mirrored real life depression a lot better than any other show I’ve ever seen. Mix all that insight in with humour and a well-paced story and we get yet another great episode to muse over.
25 October 2015 at 21:23 #45482Thank you both. (: Tee Hee
Now I feel better! The Emperor himself is impressed! Day made, really. (:
The pictures are perfect. They really show the similarities.
Here is A BONKERS theory. IT is the same person, but those weird eighties earrings Ellie has on are creating a hologram, so she looks different.
25 October 2015 at 21:11 #45480LOL! while I was posting my last post people DID comment. Ha ha, I should erase my other comment.
25 October 2015 at 21:08 #45478@pedant or @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeManYES. THANK YOU! If I wanted to listen to insecure assertions of knowledge or maturity, or opinions trying to masquerade as facts I would go look up the comments in one of the popular complaining sites. I come on this forum for intelligent conversations, fun or “bonkers” theories. I love what you wrote: “We could have been reading a really interesting post full of insight and critique of the episode we have just watched, but instead we are reading the same old fanboy wailing about how much better things were ‘when I were a kid’. We could have considering the use of symbolism and metaphor (richer and more effective now that at any time in the show’s run), but instead we get whinges about long words.We could have been considering the acting of a disconcertingly assured 18 year-old… ah fuck it, I can’t be bothered – you are just too boring and long-winded, thinking it clever to recycle the same old whines, utterly devoid of wit or humour and a complete alien to charm.” YES! (: What you said.
Okay, enough with all the waa waa waa, thinking opinions are facts and general boring back and forth.
Plus:
“I’m being extremely clever up here and if there is no one standing around, looking impressed, what’s the point in having you all”
Not one word about my insight, not one word. (; Come on everyone! Someone at least pretend to be impressed.
25 October 2015 at 18:37 #45464HAS ANYONE NOTICED ASHILDR IS DRESSED IDENTICAL IN THE SELFIE TO CLARA’S MOTHER WHEN CLARA’s PARENTS FIRST MET? Seriously, I thought this would be all over all the net and the Doctor Who Forums this morning. Not one site, no one mention. Okay, so I will be the first to throw it out there for all to chew one. Why are they dressed the same? Coincidence? Costume department bored? Like with the necklace?
Me thinks not.
25 October 2015 at 03:48 #45417Just got to reading all of this. Crazy week, and that is putting it lightly.
Too much, so I will sum up:
@purofilion and @ichabod What you two said. (: Loved reading your posts about the episode and Doctor Who and about life in general .
Clara – I think her character is extremely complex; she is very flawed and original, and unpredictable. One of the best. Tarot: Hanged Man & The World
Doctor – Yes, questioning himself, making poor choices, toying with darkness. This is often the case with someone who has had a complex background of extreme highs and lows. Some people never get to that step. It’s like the mirror scene in the Neverending Story (another “children’s story” and it’s funny how children’s stories go deeper than the majority of “adult” literature and movies) it is one of the final steps towards becoming enlightened and ready to be a tool for the universe’s progress. The consequences of his actions may very well be leading him towards the Valeyard, which will be an important step in his growth. Tarot: The Fool
Ashildr – She is set to be a very important character somehow tied to Clara, there is little doubt. Minister of War, is a brilliant connection, nice job. The fact that she is “battle god” and Clara is “friend of God” (only when she was Oswin) but most of the time “ruler of gods” as Oswald. They will be tied in, and would not be surprised by a family like relation. Tarot: Strength
Too many thoughts, too many theories, some about River, CAL, and Missy, and some about the Valeyard. I truly enjoyed everyone’s posts and I actually read them all. My head is swimming and my nine year old is waiting for to stop writing so we can watch tonight’s new episode. He finished his math, so now it’s time for me to hold up my end and get off the computer. Doctor Who is a highly anticipated family event. Sorry for the losses and illness in our great community. Love to all. Sorry for the brevity. Enjoy tonight! Can’t wait to see what they throw at us next. What an all-around awesome season and fun ride. (:
11 October 2015 at 18:37 #44496@fivefaces @bluesqueakpip Yes, she does seem to attract a lot of paradoxes and issues with time. Hmmmm. Like the bonkers theory about a password The voice of the Fisher King sure sounded like House from the episode with Idris.
11 October 2015 at 18:22 #44492@bluesqueakpip Avalon’s symbol is the apple. Could mean Eve, or more likely, Morgan Le Fay.
5 October 2015 at 17:27 #44114@bluesqueakpip Of course! It must be, then there is the traditional maiden, mother and crone.
Sisterhood of Sybiline, Sisters of Karn and Raven Sisters of Avalon all seem to have a common thread and purpose too.
5 October 2015 at 17:13 #44112No one wants to humour my ‘Devil’s End’ and ‘Satan Pit’ theory? 😉 Yeah, pretty crazy, I know, but that’s why I love this forum, crazy and bonkers is just part of the fun. 🙂
Going with the Merlin theme, and Nimueh, the ravens are a symbol of the triple goddess of the aisle of Avalon. Who is the third? Missy, Clara and? Wasn’t there a mute helper of Nimueh? Named Raven? I will have to look that one up, I simply don’t know where that memory is from.
5 October 2015 at 16:52 #44111@bluesqueakpip Agree, the location is purposeful, not only because of it’s military history but it’s legends around Ackergill Tower, Castle of Mey, Standing Stones and The Hill O’ Many Stanes. It’s also the home of the family Sinclair/St. Claire that uses the raven and a boat like the painting on it’s crest. There is a legend of a sea serpent in Loch Mey, most likely this is what the painting is about, even though I really like the Narnia concept. Government buildings are often adorned with the history of the town they were built in.
5 October 2015 at 06:52 #440915 October 2015 at 06:49 #44090Ellie Ravenswood from the Raven clan of Sinclair. The name of the town the water base is in told us a lot. My mother’s name was Ellen, so I don’t need to look up that Ellie means ‘bright shinning one” which is interesting since Claire means light too. The town the base is in is a hint of things to come. The crest of the town includes a raven and Viking ship.
5 October 2015 at 05:05 #44087Caithness is the town of the family Sinclaire or St. Claire. In legend, they were related to the Fisher King. Family of St. Claire? Clara relation?
5 October 2015 at 04:58 #44086“For the Cathars men were the swords that spirits fought with, and no one saw the hands. For the Cathars a perpetual war was being waged throughout the whole of creation between two irreconcilable principles—light and darkness, spirit and matter, good and evil.”
And for a little more to chew on if you are willing to watch the two episodes I sited as possible prelude to Under the Lake: http://watch.pair.com/false-christ.html
Just for fun while we wait for part two. 🙂
5 October 2015 at 04:19 #44085@purofilion
Probably not similar enough, but it was fun to make the connection. I am now throwing out the fun and bonkers theories. 🙂
5 October 2015 at 03:24 #44081@donnydhuum Welcome! (: Yes, I caught that too. Here is a theory, I think the passive alien Tivoli,was just made a pilot for a daemon or devil consciousness. Watch ‘The Daemons’ and then ‘The Satan Pit’ two part and see what you think. Just something I’m throwing out into the mix.
5 October 2015 at 03:00 #44078Watch episode from the third Doctor ‘The Daemons’ and then look at the writing the 10th Doctor can not translate in the ‘Satan Pit’ plus the words in that episode could transfer into people like in ‘Under the Lake’ and the writing looks very similar. The two episodes could be a prelude to ‘Under the Lake’ and the next tarot cards ‘The Devil’ and ‘Death’ and possibly the ‘Ace of Swords.’
5 October 2015 at 02:02 #44073@jbhamlore Your theory makes perfect sense. It does seem extremely foreboding to have the cloister bells going off. The Tablet of Destiny could create the ghosts.
5 October 2015 at 01:58 #44071@purofilion
Your Ring theory works with The Raven Banner by Ian Cassells I brought up earlier.
5 October 2015 at 01:21 #44068…as in ‘Under the Lake’ is part two to ‘The Daemons.’
5 October 2015 at 01:14 #44067@juniperfish Moffat would. (;
The Dæmons:
Okay, the Master is wearing similar glasses in the Daemons as that the Doctor is now wearing, a scientist at UNIT by the name of Osgood is trying to end the argument between science and magic….I could go on. Maybe this episode is really part two of the The Dæmons.
In an episode that takes place in legendary Caithness, with the history of The Raven Banner, and an episode coming up called “Face the Raven” …… probably just a coincidence.
4 October 2015 at 22:15 #44061@lisa GOOD POINT! I’m also going to go back and look.
The Doctor is clearly the Merlin/Magician/Fool in this. River said wizards in stories always turned out to be him. (:
Possibly the big white box is the resting place of Merlin said to be in the waters of Avalon.
4 October 2015 at 20:54 #44057Didn’t the Master/Missy wear similar glasses in Devil’s End? Not saying it’s Azal in there, just came to my head that maybe the Master/Missy both needed the glasses to see something more clearly.
4 October 2015 at 20:40 #44055Possibly traces of Void stuff? Like before? Possibly because the damage done between the voids opened up something that let Omega reach into this reality? Maybe Gallifrey is in the Void?
4 October 2015 at 20:35 #44054The sonic screwdriver will be back, it has to be, we’ve seen a future version in past episodes. The glasses are purposefully used because he needs to keep an eye on something, or see it in a certain way, like in Army of Ghosts.
4 October 2015 at 20:27 #44053Okay, any of you who have read my private message about my theories may have guessed I’m sort of freaking out right now, because people on this forum who asked to hear them in PM know I completely called this before I saw it, and also I may have been the first to see the tarot theme in this season and post on it on any Who site. A nod to my brilliant mum on this, she would have been thrilled. This is not me being clever, this goes back to my mother, which I explained in previous posts, researched Arthurian legend, was part if a society of authors on the subject, and this is why as I child I was taught the story and symbolism of the tarot. Like I had said, tarot not as divination, but as a story. I can see the pattern because I was raised on it. I can explain the symbolism if anyone has questions, but my whole theory is turning out to be spot on, so therefore a huge and massive spoiler. I can clarify symbolism on current and past episodes, but ask me for future details at your own risk of possibly spoiling the season fun for yourself.
@juniperfish I really like your Merlin and Nimueh theory. Very intense if the reference is to Clara.
@bluesqueakpip If there is a Narnia reference to Dawn Treader, it would certainly have to do with the theme of journey to the edge of death, and beyond. Clara would be Lucy, their names mean the same thing: light. When I saw the painting I thought of the Loch Ness monster guarding the aisle of Avalon. I like your theory about Narnia though! Has me thinking.
@purofilion I am loving your time signature theory! I also completely enjoyed the music in this episode.
This enemy inside the friend thing has my mind making some turns in my overarching theory.
30 September 2015 at 09:47 #4383730 September 2015 at 09:46 #43836@lisa About the double tied legs, my mind immediately chopped this up to the very practical reason that she was wearing a below the knee skirt which would be ackward. Crew probably argued to Moffat that it was a no go in that outfit and at that point he would have to agree.
@purofilion @bluesqueakpip What still bothers me is how is Clara born in her Claricle forms? So was she born to Gallifreyan parents when we see her on Gallifrey, or did she randomly pop into the right place? She can’t be born to parents randomly?
30 September 2015 at 02:17 #43815@craig I just read the etiquette section on this site, since I’m still trying to navigate the proper place and way to use ideas or info that is considered a spoiler.
Reading the Forum’s etiquette page made me love this site more. I stopped reading all other forms of Doctor Who news and forums because they simply stopped being fun, and it did not read like a discussion. It’s like the majority of people on the other forums and author’s of popular sites do not seem to grasp that an opinion is not fact, and discussions are meant to be a sharing of ideas not an argument. It’s as if the goal is to define their love of the show through what they hate. The etiquette page sums everything up much better than I am doing here.
Basically, awesome blog\page, well-said, well-done and I think this etiquette page could and should be applied to a lot of pages and forums on the web
This forum has a great creative and positive vibe. May it continue until the end of time….and rebooted if there are any cracks in the universe. 😉
30 September 2015 at 01:13 #4381230 September 2015 at 01:09 #43811@purofilion I guess we have to assume he wiped his memory, which he has done before. The whole episode begs to be studied by crazy Whovians like ourselves. The fact Clara was only there for a moment in the restaurant was how I accepted it until then, but then I started thinking about a few crazy theories. What if the Doctor came back to help Clara somehow, that night as she’s talking away, maybe even a different regeneration of the Doctor. What if he steers her away right then on another path? I know I’ve gone crazy now splitting hairs. But what has been getting to me even more is that Danny doesn’t actually own up to the name Rupert. He just said he hasn’t used that name in years. Now I’m really splitting hairs. Maybe the kid is related to Danny Pink. Maybe the Tardis took Clara where it wanted, I remember being surprised to see the TARDIS doing Clara’s bidding on any level but then dismissed my shock as the episode progressed. Maybe the Time Lord relation is Donna, Martha and Mikey, or any other companion known to be able to have children.
I know this is bonkers, and most likely it is grandchild never to have been born.
Okay, less bonkers is who wrote “listen” on the chalkboard? It was someone aboard the TARDIS. Outside of he just forgot that he ran upstairs wrote it and forgot, that leaves us with someone wrote it. Could someone be in the TARDIS invisible? Could it be River? The TARDIS wouldn’t just let anyone on board. Just some fun thoughts.
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