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Here’s a goofball idea (and I don’t think this is an original thought; seems to me I read someone else making this observation, but I’ll just take it a step further): What if the Dave on Shona’s list is actually Professor Albert? The shock of seeing the professor killed by the dream crabs has stayed with her in her waking state and troubles her enough that she is now willing to forgive him for that “comforting” pat on the knee … which I’m thinking she experienced in real life, and so it played a role in her dream. Dave is still alive; we just don’t get to see him wake up, because Shona checking that item off on her list leaves it to our imagination as to how that will play out.

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@drben I like your bonkers theory! It’s along the lines of what I was thinking, except that I didn’t take the time to imagine the elaborate backstory that you did. Bravo!

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@purofilion I’ve been lurking. But until we had a new episode to talk about, I haven’t had much to say, LOL! I guess I need that inspiration to get on a roll. I’ve also been busy with work leading up to Christmas, and also taking part in the seasonal overindulgence.

@Barbara Lefty Which does get us back to, that house ain’t real…

Which reminds me of my earlier faulty logic. I was thinking that at the very least, Clara was dreaming her father’s house because of Danny asking Clara if it was her dad knocking. But, of course, if it were her father’s house, why would he knock at his own front door? Duh.

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I really can’t add much to what everyone else here has stated so eloquently, except that “Midnight” was the episode that made me a Doctor Who fan. The minimalist sets and powerful acting revealed a challenging story that was well beyond the fun diversion I’d thought Doctor Who was.

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By the way, when I talk about something being “real” or believing in Doctor Who, it’s not that I think I’ll bump into the Doctor or one of those characters on the street one day. It’s not that kind of reality. But I do believe in some of the basic truths the stories convey.

One episode, in particular, stands out to me because I consider it the one that made me a Doctor Who fan: “Midnight” from Season 4. The special effects are sparse; the eerie atmosphere is achieved largely through great acting. We learn that the worst does not always bring out the best in people; that’s a hard truth to face about human nature, because it means we have to wonder what we would do in this situation. Even though this frightening idea is conveyed through fictional characters, the message is powerful because we care about the Doctor. (And, to tie this in with “Last Christmas”: David Troughton, who was in “Midnight,” is the brother of Michael Troughton, who was in “Last Christmas” … and of course they are both sons of Patrick Troughton, Doctor No. 2.)

I think this is often a difficult concept to tackle. For some, “real” means tangible, completely grounded in reality. But I think it can also mean vivid, or deeply felt, and stories can help us experience that and sort it out. As @arbutus so eloquently put it, in this episode we’re allowed to make our own choices about what we consider to be real. That’s what I mean about finding truth in fiction, and believing in that truth (even though it’s fiction). I know, that’s probably as clear as mudflaps!

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OK, here’s the link to the “Last Christmas” extra (which, by the way, is lots of fun, so I thank @nine9 for mentioning it). I watched it all the way through but didn’t hear anything about Jenna staying or going, so there must be another extra that I’ve missed? Dunno.

@arbutus In my view, the tangerine on the window was meant to allow the audience (and most importantly, the children in the audience) to believe if they choose to that Santa was real. There was no way that Moffat was ever going to write a Christmas episode, knowing that many families watch with small children, and have it shown that Santa is not real.

Absolutely, I agree. Fantasy is clearly a basis for most, if not all, of Doctor Who. So why not include Santa Claus within a fantastical realm? I think he fits perfectly in that “what if” world.

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@nine9 And I love that my comments are not appreciated for simply making a statement that Santa Claus is not real.

I don’t think that’s the problem. I think it’s more an issue of stating opinion as fact. You said that “Making Santa Claus real in the Who universe or in any universe would be terribly wrong. He cannot be real.” That may well be your opinion, and I respect your opinion. You have every right to it, just as each one of us does. Consider this: There are many people who believe in God or a Higher Power given some other name. There has long been a conflict between science and spirituality, because there is precious little in the spiritual world that can be scientifically proven. Yet people still believe, and those beliefs are very real to them.

We face a similar dilemma in this whole question of whether Santa Claus is real. To many children, he certainly is. So why would it be “terrible” to make Santa Claus real in the Whoniverse? After all, the Whoniverse is populated by countless other fictional characters we enjoy watching … and, to varying degrees, believing in. Not necessarily as being “real” … but as being worthwhile pursuits for our imaginations, intellects and emotions.

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@nine9 I’m not sure the point is really whether any of us wants Santa Claus to be real. I think many of us are happy to entertain the “what if” fantasy of Santa Claus being real, which is a nice bit of escapism from the drudgery (and worse) of our world. I can think of things far worse than wanting Santa Claus to be real. And I think part of the magic of Christmas, for adults, is enjoying the belief of children. That was something this episode portrayed quite effectively, for me.

As for Jenna leaving, I haven’t seen the extra you refer to, so I could very well be wrong about this. But I felt that these rumors were nothing more than that, rumors planted in the media to build up anticipation over how the Christmas special would be resolved.

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@nine9 Making Santa Claus real in the Who universe or in any universe would be terribly wrong. He cannot be real. By the end of the episode we are left to ask ourselves if they are still dreaming or if anything of what happened was real. It could also be Missy behind all that.

I disagree … but then that’s what opinions are all about. My perception of that ending was that it was Santa Claus who orchestrated the whole thing to reunite Clara and the Doctor, so that they could repair their Gift of the Magi lies to one another. The tangerine, Santa’s favorite gift, is his calling card. The fact that it was left on the window for us to see tells me he is “real” … or, at least, as real as things get in the Whoniverse. After all, Santa Claus did tell the Doctor, “Before this Christmas Day is done, you will be glad of my help.” And wasn’t he? I think so. He and Clara, both.

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@bluesqueakpip It’s just that, it being Christmas, and having seen her family visit her – I’m guessing that this time, she’s at her Dad’s. The Christmas tree has a family sized group of presents around it and the house is much too big for one person – but about right for Dad, Stepmum, Gran living-in and a guest-room for Clara to visit.

I think you are correct, that Clara is at her dad’s … or at least dreaming that she’s there (depending on when the dream actually starts). When she and Danny are downstairs, snuggling on the couch, there’s a knock on the door (this turns out to be the Doctor). As Clara is getting up to answer the door, Danny asks Clara if it’s her dad, and she nods, then says not to get him started on golf. So Clara’s father’s house is indeed the setting for Clara’s dreamscape with Danny.

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@cubefox Does anybody like her?

I daresay if you bother to read through some of the posts on this forum – heck, just this thread, alone – you might find a few people who like her.

@bluesqueakpip … yeah, really sulk. By the volcano. It matches his mood.

I like that. It fits.

@jimthefish Well, that was really good. I’m glad that SM is continuing his tradition of the last few years of using the Christmas episode as a continuation of the narrative rather than a ‘time out, it’s Chrisssstmasss!’ episode. Lots to love in this episode too and setting up the Doctor and Clara nicely too.

Amen!

@macphisto96 Yet Clara discovers that the Doctor is the most fantastic thing of them all – and in the midst of a dream, the Doctor literally takes the reins and rediscovers his own childlike sense of joy.

I was so happy to see this Doctor finally having fun! It brought me a surprisingly strong feeling of joy.

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Ah, OK, I knew that Jenna was rumored to be leaving. Interesting that perhaps that was just a red herring, too? Or maybe Jenna changed her mind?

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OK, I have missed out on what happened with the Daily Mirror. A synopsis, please?

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@twholt I thought the Doctor kept waking up at the volcano where Clara betrayed him. Which is a bit confounding, since that in itself was a dream state. And is that volcano Pompeii? Hmmmm . . . .

@geoffers Good point about the “three months” Post-It note. It makes sense that it would be the length of time she’d been traveling with the Doctor and lying to Danny about it.

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Well, well, well. That was not at all what I was expecting. I guess the “three months” Post-It note was a classic case of misdirection. Now I’m not sure what it meant. But we saw Clara neither pregnant nor dying … leastways not in the way that we were guessing. So still we are left wondering how we met one of Danny’s descendants. Maybe that question will be left unanswered.

I was certain we would see a resolution, or at least a partial one, to the missing Gallifrey, but it never came up. So I guess we will have to wait till next season to see how that story is pursued.

Many of the episodes we’ve seen this season would have terrified me as a child … and this bit with the dreams is no exception. Never knowing for sure when you’re awake? That will keep the kiddies lying awake at night. It certainly would have me.

One thing I really enjoyed about this episode was seeing how Peter Capaldi and Jenna Coleman’s characters finally connected. They now have a warmth and camaraderie that had been hit or miss throughout much of Clara’s tenure. I hope they are able to develop that even further in the coming season, especially now that they know they can be completely open and honest with one another.

I really, really want to see this episode uninterrupted by commercial breaks, which completely took me out of the flow of the episode. They are a necessary evil, I know, but I’m sure everything will come together for me far better when I can watch it the way it was meant to be presented.

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I just watched this on Netflix (as contrasted with my previous viewings on Canada’s Space Channel). It was wonderful to see it in high definition, and commercial-free. I’d forgotten so much! As Nightmare noted, it was such a joy to see the three Doctors sparring with one another. There was a remarkable contrast yet cohesion between the three personalities, which I really enjoyed. The Moment and Clara had great scenes, as well … as did The Curator … or Doctor? Hmmm … just writing about it makes me want to watch again!

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I actually did love this episode, a very poignant sendoff to Tennant’s Doctor. I just came across this interview with Timothy Dalton (and I hope I am posting it in the correct thread; if not, then mod please feel free to move it). In it he discusses his role on Doctor Who, among many, many things.

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@arbutus Bravo! I agree completely.

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Once again, I am very slow on the uptake (and I apologize if someone else has already mentioned this): But here we are, starting out with an active volcano. And Pompeii is where the doctor found “the face” he chose for this regeneration. I wonder if the reference was intentional … and if so, why didn’t the writers dwell on it a bit more deeply? I keep waiting to see the doctor finally connecting the dots between The Fires of Pompeii and now. But maybe I’ll be waiting a long, long time.

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@badwulf – Interesting point about Dr. Skarosa. It certainly is an intriguing choice of name, but I’m not sure if that was intended by the writers as just a little in-joke, or something more significant. We certainly have no proof that the Cyberman in Dr. Skarosa’s dark water tomb was, indeed Dr. Skarosa … or if such an individual even existed. After all, the whole 3W scheme was a con, so it stands to reason that its “creator” could have been, as well.

However, it’s just as interesting to surmise that Dr. Skarosa was indeed an “idiot” who fell for Missy’s Poltergeist/white noise parapsychobabble and built an entire business around it, at Missy’s behest. Who better to be at Missy’s beck and call than someone like that? He might then be eager to join 3W’s other wealthy clients and be uploaded to the Nethersphere, his body in a dark water/Cyberman tomb. As the company founder, maybe that was one of his contractual benefits.

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@badwulf Does anyone else have a problem with novels written in the Present Tense?

For me it really depends on the novel. I agree with @thommck – If the atmosphere an author intends to create is that in which anything can happen, and that events are not following some “already happened” pre-known narrative, then present tense works very well.

One of my favourite contemporary authors is Miriam Toews. Her “A Complicated Kindness” would not have worked, IMO, if told in past tense. Its immediacy keeps us on our toes, much the way real life does. Present tense also offers the hope that, when things are going badly, they can get better. The author doesn’t always deliver on that promise, but the hope of it is part of what sustains the reader to the end.

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@scaryb you are correct, I hadn’t quite thought that through. The issue wasn’t that people who chose cremation wouldn’t have their souls uploaded to the Nethersphere, but rather they couldn’t be downloaded into a Cyberman body. Hence Seb’s question to Danny about cremation. So Osgood and others who got zapped into cremains by Missy could be in the Nethersphere … but without a way out. Which may have been more merciful, considering the only option seemed to be coming back as a Cyberman (excepting the boy Danny sent back to Clara).

@lisa yes, I thought that was Dr. Skarosa’s Cyberman who was housed in Dr. Chang’s office, then emerged to confront Clara. My sense was that maybe that had originally been Dr. Skarosa’s office, which Dr. Chang took over.

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Something I just noticed, watching this for the fourth time (and yes, I’m a bit slow on the uptake): When Missy uses her device to kill people, what’s left are effectively cremains, when of course cremation was the very thing 3W warned against. Was this to ensure that whomever she killed, like Osgood, couldn’t be uploaded to the Nethersphere, thus becoming Cybermen?

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Re: trolls on the Guardian blog, I find IMDb to be much the same. There is the occasional respectful and thoughtful discourse, but I find that, by and large, there are lots of drive-bys, and then there are those persistently negative posters who want nothing more than to proselytize about how awful the show has become under Moffat’s tenure, how no real Doctor Who fan worth his/her salt could possibly like the show now … unless one is a fangirl/boy … etc., etc., etc. It really gets tiresome, to the point where I went searching for something better. Thankfully this forum showed up near the top of my search results!

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@fatmaninabox: Oops, sorry about that … and thanks for the heads-up!

@Bluesequeakspip: Yes. Strangely, she also sounded incredibly like David Tennant in her very first appearance; Asylum of the Daleks.

Indeed! Thank you for reminding me. Must revisit that one again. One of my favorite episodes, and my favorite Clara – er, Oswin – episodes.

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@drben That remains my theory about the “three months” thing, that she’s dying.  Bleak to bleaker, I know, but for some reason it feels right.  And it definitely adds resonance to the line “Danny and I will be fine.”

It also makes her “You’re the last person who’s ever going to hear me say that” line to Danny that much clearer.

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Oh gosh, now I’m wondering if the “three months” Post-it note wasn’t that Clara was three months pregnant … but that she has three months to live? It’s just the way she says, “There’s something I have to tell you … and it’s not good news, so just listen.” That’s why she tells him she and Danny will be fine, because in death they will be together? Argh, I just put that together while watching the episode a third time. When the doctor says he’s found Gallifrey, Clara’s whole demeanour changes. She realizes she wants to leave him with that feeling of happiness and hopefulness … not the loss of yet another companion. Except that she doesn’t know he too is lying.

By the way, at the end Santa says: “It’s meeeee. Hello … doctor? You know you can’t end like that, hmmm? We need to get this sorted, and quickly. She’s not all right, and neither are you. I’m coming in. There you are. I knew I’d get around to you eventually. Now, stop gawking … and tell me: What do you want for Christmas?”

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Did anyone notice that during Clara’s “doctor” impersonation, Jenna Coleman’s delivery seemed eerily close to David Tennant’s?

I agree with @arbutus. Rewatching this episode, it is difficult to tell the colour of the blast when cyber-Danny shoots the three Cybermen. It looks like a bluish-white bolt, followed by yellowy-red flames as the Cybermen explode. When Missy is hit, it’s blue light and blue sparks. So it was different … but as to what that means, we’ll have to wait and see.

@janetteb Another mention of the Doctor’s family firmly establishing that he had children and grandchildren on Gallifrey. His despair at the end was truely heartbreaking. What does everyone want most for Christmas? Home and family. No matter where you are or how wonderful the adventures you have having, when it comes to Christmas there is a yearning, even just for a day, for home and family.

So true. For the Christmas special, I wonder if he will decide he must trade his wish for Clara’s … making it even more poignant?

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Oops, I should read posts before posting, myself. I was out of the loop on the Master’s hypnotic abilities, so that answers that about the guards.

Ah, yes, Danny’s sense of duty (and also the brigadier’s). That makes sense to me for why they were able to resist Missy’s commands and do the right thing.

I also agree with those who examine the show’s past history with handling the damage inflicted by time travel, and find it wanting. It’s true that we have had too-easy answers for that, and this season gives us a more plausible rendering.

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@peargrins and @phmd I agree with your sentiments. I confess that one of my sources of enjoyment of the new-era doctors has been their playfulness and overall lack of dourness (though obviously there are exceptions to that). I did enjoy those more lighthearted romps through alien territory that Nos. 10 and 11 gave us (though No. 9 was a bit more unflappable, less manic than his successors). I suppose I am also tiring of everything being about the catastrophic end of Earth and/or humankind. I understand the writers’ logic, that we viewers will care more about what happens here than somewhere out there … but it was the somewhere out there that, at least for me, gave the series its magic.

I think my difficulty with this finale is that my emotions are diverted by the mutual lying (again) at the end between Clara and the doctor.  Previous partings have been far more emotional because the companions are often at their most desperately honest with the doctor … and he with them. Are we in for a “Gift of the Magi” Christmas special, courtesy of Santa Claus? I want a satisfying conclusion to Clara’s story, because she and the doctor have basically been dancing around each other, never quite connecting, ever since her arrival. I don’t want to think it’s all for naught.

Speaking of unsatisfying endings: I would really like to see the return of Donna, not as a full-time companion, but given a more emotionally satisfying sendoff than what she got with No. 10. I know there are supposed to be fatal problems with her remembering the doctor and their adventures together, but surely those can be “fixed” in true time lord fashion? After all, she is the reason the doctor was able to choose that face.

I wish that Danny had been as animated in his earlier episodes as he was in these last two. He really grew on me here at the end, and Samuel Anderson really acted the lights out in this two-part finale. However, I had felt a bit “meh” about him up to this point.

Question: Was the little boy uploaded into a Cyberman before being sent back into the living by Danny? Or did he stay in the Nethersphere? I wasn’t clear on how that process worked.

Or was he somehow there with Danny in the same suit? Might that have been why Danny could resist Missy’s command with the bracelet, when all the other Cybermen did as they were told? Even though Danny’s emotions were deleted, the boy’s weren’t. Pure speculation, based mainly on my not being clear what happened to the boy between the Nethersphere and Clara’s hallway.

I loved it when Missy comes floating down into the cemetery like a demented Mary Poppins. Since she disappears in a cloud of blue (rather than fiery red), I am assuming that she teleported just before they were able to kill her, and we will see her again. I hope so, anyway. Even though I’m a bit tired of the recurring three nemeses (Daleks, Cybermen and the Master/Mistress), I enjoyed her performance.

I’m not sure it was ever overtly explained, but I agree with others who think 3W was just a con. After all, actual bodies were needed into which to upload the Cybermen. With cremation, the bodies don’t exist. So I think that whole “don’t cremate me” was cooked up in order to convince people to preserve their bodies.

UNIT was remarkably ineffectual; that must have been the world’s worst two guards chosen to protect everyone from Missy. Poor Osgood … though her death didn’t affect me as much as I think was intended. But maybe she was just supposed to show the shocking realization that yes, those the doctor cares about can be killed off. And the doctor, himself, was remarkably ineffectual. I admit that my most thrilling moments with the doctor are his “save the world” (whatever world that may be) moments, when he uses his capacity for rewriting time to save someone … even though we believe all is lost. I know it’s fantasy or wish fulfillment, but I love those moments. We saw precious few of them this season.

 

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@nerys Welcome! Is that nerys after the wonderful character in Deep Space Nine?

No, I’m not nearly that creative. Nerys was Donna’s oft-lamented “friend” from her pre- and post-Doctor Who life. I was trying to think of a name that hadn’t been taken, and Nerys certainly seemed like a likely candidate, LOL! I can just hear Donna yelling that in that fishwife voice of hers.

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Just popping in to say hello. I read over the posts in the Dark Water thread and greatly enjoyed them (much better than most of what I see on IMDb), so that convinced me to join up. I’m new to the group and am anxiously awaiting tonight’s finale, Death in Heaven!

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