Forum Replies Created
1 November 2014 at 23:48 #34475
My 10y/o was very cross that the master, who he loves, had changed into a woman! However, about 15 mins later he was loving it!
I thought it was a great part 1, although over far too quickly!
I didn’t really understand why Clata destroying TARDIS keys was a threat, surely he can just click his fingers?1 November 2014 at 13:30 #34414
Just quickly wanted to jump in to give my thoughts on this episode after reading all your posts.
We’ve just spent a week in Thetford forest so this seemed like a very apt episode.
It really didn’t gel with me at all, for a number of reasons. I don’t think it was an awful episode, my kids seemed to like it well enough, I just didn’t really understand what the motivation of everyone was.
I understood straight away that the trees were protecting us so maybe that is why it all felt a bit lack lustre
Instead of criticizing, think of this more as a list of questions…
* Why was the doctor going to Trafalgar square in the first place
* Why was Maebe so much like Amelia Pond?
* Since when does the TARDIS have a voice sat nav
* Anabelle reappearing in the hydrangeas suggests she had run away but others here think she was resurrected. The while thing was a bit too fairy tale (ok, maybe that’s the point)
* Why were the sparkly things bothering Maebe and no-one else. Where they caused by the meds our the trauma?
I liked how Danny was the hero again, using his torch a lot like a sonic screwdriver!
I took the ending with Missy to mean she was trying to either test or kill the Doctor/Clara by causing the solar flare. She was surprised that the trees fought back.
The sparky spirits are another tiny/invisible thing.
Call back to Pompeii with the “Save who you can” bit. See the Missy blog for my thoughts on that!
Can’t wait for tonight, I wonder how much will be revealed before the cliffhanger?
Off to ask my boys on their Missy theories now31 October 2014 at 00:59 #34362
@janneteb Love your idea that Danny and the Doctor are related. That is much more interesting to me than Clara being related. They haven’t interacted much but they certainly seem to be able to rub each other the wrong way, like only family members can! Perhaps he is Susan’s grandson?24 October 2014 at 16:01 #34063
@lisa I don’t think she’s a claricle, in fact I’m willing to put money on it!
Also, I’m sure Clara called the TARDIS from her the Maitland’s home phone. She was only given a number from the WitS, which I always thought was just on a piece of paper24 October 2014 at 12:56 #34060
@melloyello, My consensus (and I believe the general thoughts within the forum) is as follows
Their is Clara-Prime. This is the original, natural, completely ordinary 21st Century Clara that the Doctor found in Bells of St John.
In Name of the Doctor Clara-Prime jumped into the Doctor’s time-scar and was split across his whole time line. On the forum we call them Claricles.
Victorian and Dalek Clara are Claricles. They were born like normal humans and have no knowledge of their fate to try to save the Doctor from the Great Intelligence. The episode states that the Doctor rarely notices her. The Claricles are are bit mysterious and not fully explained. The episodes have led us to believe all the Claricles die at a young age while trying to help the Doctor. This was possibly imprinted on them by Clara-Prime’s original sacrifice of jumping into the time-scar
Clara-Prime is stuck in the Doctor’s time-scar, which is it’s own separate place. She can see flashes of all the Doctors running around her and sees the Claricles failing to help him.
The 11th Doctor (Matt Smith) then jumps in and saves Clara-Prime, taking her out of the time-scar, at which she suffers great memory loss.
She wouldn’t have seen the 12th Doctor (Capaldi) as the Doctor’s time-scar only went up to his death on Trenzalore (before the timelords saved gave him a new set of regenerations).24 October 2014 at 10:04 #34054
@thedoctorsotter, @fangirl-slowly Welcome along, always nice to hear some new voices on the forum. You’ll find a whole range of people on here, from those who watched the original episodes in the 1960s to the more recent newbies who’ve managed to binge-watch the 8 new series in a couple of months!
@fangirl-slowly, like @spider said, I’m aware it was implied Captain Jack was the Face of Boe, I thought it was a great twist at the time, but it definitely wasn’t concrete evidence. Just a fun silly idea of mine that it could be the Doctor 😛
@fatmaninabox, you are missing out if you haven’t seen The Lego Movie. One of the best films of the year (no joke). Find a small child and use them as an excuse to watch it!23 October 2014 at 21:17 #3403923 October 2014 at 20:53 #34038
Just quickly popping back in to let you know my Missy blog post is up on the forum Missy Who?, we can use it as a central place to share our Missy theories before all is revealed!23 October 2014 at 09:36 #34012
@drben, I forgot about the special dino Optic-nerve, good connection!
@mudlark, I suppose the “window” behind Missy does look like the newer style Cyberman eyes. Perhaps she has been miniaturised into a cyberman (just like the Doctor in Into the Dalek)
@ixion I noticed those numbers on the wall and also thought it was to show how the boneless could read. Not sure if that was deliberate mis-direction or just a badly placed prop!?
@bluesqueakpip, Of course, I forget Moffat is such a bare-faced liar! He’d sell his own grandmother to throw us off a plot!
@barnable Glad you enjoyed the links, I must admit I am trying to inject a bit more @wolfweed-iness into my posts as I’m missing his absence myself!
@purofilion those slugs sounds very creepy, sent a shiver down my spine. A shame you had to resort to kerosene and couldn’t zap them back to there own hellish dimension from whence they came! Reminds me of an interesting (and creepy) fact I learnt in a QI episode about how caterpillars move faster as a group22 October 2014 at 15:35 #33984
I was putting together my Missy theories and it became more of a blog article! I’ll formulate it properly and send it to @craig to see if he fancies sticking it up.
In the meantime, I’ll add a few of the juicy bits we get from her in this episode
Why do people think this episode proves she is a baddie? The “evil” laugh? I didn’t particularly get that vibe from her yet, especially after the Doctor warns us not to be quick to judge the Boneless.
The iPad Missy was using felt really odd to me. It is such an object of this time, right down to the protective cover it had. This makes me think Missy is now on 21st Century Earth. Either that, or she pinched it off one of her “visitors”!
This also makes me think she could potentially have been the Woman in the Shop. If that is the same person that Clara says “So that’s who” when reading the Time War book it will mean the Doctor and Clara should both recognise her (unless she has changed appearance). If that link proves true then surely Missy is a Timelord?
The fact Missy could view Clara live makes me think of the optic hack that Clara so readily put in her ear. Could that be Cyberman tech or just cyborg tech like Psi had (Into the Dalek). This links to all of the imagery of “eyes” that we’ve had this series (the close up of Half-Faced man’s eye, Clara’s eye shirt etc.) and the feeling of being watched (Listen, invisible watch)
The circles in the background (@PhileasF) have also been spotted a lot this series (Orson’s Timeshot, Galiffreyan writing in general, Pi reference in Flatline), Perhaps that links with the eyes?
Al this talk of eyes reminded me of a story where a man had something stuck in his eye that made him have horrible visions of everything. It reminded me of the “Sliver of Ice” that was described as being in the Doctor’s heart last series (Hide). In the story he ends up crying it out when his true love dies. This made me hunt it out and I believe I was thinking of the Snow Queen by Hans Christian Anderson. In fact, I have a funny feeling that it was mentioned by forumites last year? You can read the story in full here hca.gilead.org.il/snow_que.html, a few mentions of Demons and Heaven in the first section alone!22 October 2014 at 12:37 #33982
Got to finally watch the episode last night and just caught up on all the great posts here.
I actually loved this episode, it seemed so bizarre from the get-go I thought it would be really cheesey but, despite all the comedy, it actually managed to be really scary and unnerving. Great work by the Director I guess. Not to mention the writer and everyone else involved. I also heard this would be Doctor-lite but that wasn’t the case at all, he was very prominent (unlike in Blink).
The look of the Boneless was definitely a great achievement. CGI is usually pretty awful in TV programmes but this was magnificent and really brought the monsters to life!
One of the scarier scenes was when the PC got sucked into the carpet. Did anyone else notice her name was PC Forest!?
I was going to speak about the similarity between the Siege mode TARDIS and the Pandorica but @Purofilion wrapped my thoughts up well on that one
I agree with @glenisterm that there seems to be a general acceptance of aliens now on Planet Earth. It’s quite refreshing that humans are aware they exist but life still carries on as normal. Even a trip on the TARDIS seems quite an acceptable thing to do, where I’m sure it used to be a lot more precious.
If you haven’t looked at the writer’s, Jamie Mathieson, blog then I’d recommend a read. There is so much great insight into how the show is made and how the writer works with Moff. jamiemathieson.blogspot.co.uk. The writer also tweeted how Peter changed a few of his lines, such as the great one about the “TARDIS cracking the Earth” was originally “sink into the earth“. A great improvement to DW lore from Capaldi there I think.
Me & the boys all noticed the Doctor’s hair suddenly became flattened (@Brewski) but we figured it was due to him pressing it up against the TARDIS’ mini-door. Perhaps the lack off life support also reduces hair gel powers!?
In the Doctor Who Extra, Moff clearly points out that Clara is addicted
Rigsy was an interesting character. I had an awful feeling he was going to reveal his real name was Richard Pink but thankfully that didn’t happen. He seemed a very troubled boy. I hope he got a bit of a confidence boost. I do wonder whether the Doctor would have saved Rigsy, or if the hairband was part of Clara’s individual approach to Doctorness.
@scaryb It’s a “thing”/Thing. It was pure glee to watch that moment, especially seeing a new dance move for the Doctor after but I do wonder why they have so much emphasis on the actual word “thing” in this series. It seems to be mentioned in every episode. Is it just a contemporary phrase or something deeper?
I have quite a bit to say on Missy ideas but I need to do a bit more research so will be back later. I’ll leave you with this pic from the ever-rewarding doctorwho.tumblr.com22 October 2014 at 09:42 #33978
@badwulf Just upload the spreadsheet to the Excel Web App or Google Docs and then put a link here.
@samsungthornby Nobody knows! The Doctor himself admitted as much in the Kill the Moon episode. This allows us to theorise that it was actually the Doctor that became the Face of Boe 😉
@devilishrobby They said all 13 because they didn’t know Tennant counted as 222 October 2014 at 08:47 #3397621 October 2014 at 10:00 #33942
@scaryb, @JimboMcMaster, Would you mind not referring to ‘future’ episodes in the previous episode posts. It’s kinda like crossing your own timeline!
I haven’t had a chance to see Flatline yet, so trying to avoid any mentions of it! 🙂20 October 2014 at 15:45 #33905
Rusty is that you?
The BBC has unveiled a computer game called The Doctor and the Dalek, as part of the Make it Digital initiative to get more young people into computer coding. It is voiced by Peter Capaldi and the story, starring a friendly Dalek, is written by Doctor Who series writer Phil Ford. A browser game playable over the internet, it is aimed at six to 12-year-olds…
I’ll definitely be getting my kids involved with this, awesome idea15 October 2014 at 12:56 #33593
I heard Professor Brian Cox on the radio this morning promoting his new show Human Universe on Tuesday nights on BBC2
It’s already a couple of episodes in (viewable on iPlayer) but he was saying how the next episode talks about multi-verses.
Could be interesting watching considering current theories about what is going on in Doctor Who at the moment!15 October 2014 at 11:35 #33586
@geoffers: the number of evil, twice over. they that bear the foretold stare have 66 seconds to live
I thought Prof Moorhouse was referring to 666, twice over being 66. Doesn’t make much sense logically but the moon is an egg and all that 😉14 October 2014 at 15:46 #33554
Thanks for the info @brewski.
I only just realised that someone would have got a phone call at the end of the episode saying “I’m sorry to inform you sir/madam but it seems a passenger has blown up the Orient Express”
I hope they had a good insurance policy!14 October 2014 at 13:39 #33548
I was just watching the Doctor Who Extra for this episode and spotted one of the background posters on the train
Some interesting place names to add to the evergrowing list in Doctor Who!
I can’t find any of them relating to something we know about already and they are probably just the whim of a set designer but that shouldn’t stop us making something fit!
14 October 2014 at 12:16 #33543
- Fortress of Riskar
- The (Ti?)tans of Mereosh
- The Walking Woods: One potential link to Danny (see image at the bottom)
- The Diamond Falls: could possibly relate to how diamonds fell from glaciers in the “Midnight” episode
- Catacombs of the Whispering Dead: A link to Missy or perhaps the Whisper Men on Trenzalore?
- The Hanging Lands ???am:
- ?Hol?? ??low: OK I’m Clutching at straws here!
@phaseshift I’m excited about watching along with Curse of Fenric. That’s a title that seems to be mentioned quite often but I don’t have any recollection of it from my youth.
That “film” version sounds really interesting. Do the DVDs have a habit of combining all of the older episodes in that way?14 October 2014 at 12:12 #33541
@tristanlorius I’m sure you have just gone and posted this on every forum you can find but your “idea” seems to be more of an “opinion” and not a very well informed one at that.
I couldn’t resist multiple comments on the doc you attached but I fear you won’t pay any attention to other people’s opinions any way.
We have a nice thread on here, Companions Past and Present, where you may like to talk about what you like about certain companions. You may find that to be a more enjoyable use of your time13 October 2014 at 13:29 #33494
Not so mello after all, what a shame …
Anyway, I have my bucket of exclamtion/question marks at the ready so hear we go.
Despite the later showing we got to watch this one live! What a fun episode. We had the lights off and my 10y/o was clinging on to me from the start 🙂 It was almost Scooby Doo!
@oblique: “Mummy on the Orient Express, the clues in the title”
Are you implying that Clara is the Doctor’s Mummy? If you’re not, I will!
Who was that Albert Einstein lookalike? Surely if it was the real one the Doctor would’ve said hello? Have they met before? Presumably it was just one of Al’s descendants (following the Orson theme).
The mention of hard-light holograms also made me think immediately of Arnold J. Rimmer (the TARDIS has visited Red Dwarf before). Now we need to look out for Clones, Gangers, Autons, Replicants and holograms!
Loved the look of the mummy, very scary and not an obvious man-in-a-suit. I’m wondering if the broken foot dragging was a clue? Look at for somebody breaking their foot in a future episode! @Bluesqueakpip, yes, the salute reminded me of Danny’s too.
Who created the Mummy? Presumably not the same person controlling GUS? Makes me think there are two factions at war here.
I liked how all of the passengers were used to space travel, they almost ignored the Doctor, or at least didn’t find him very special/interesting 😛
The Doctor says he is a doctor of “Intestinal parasites” and it turns out the mummy was suffering from one in a roundabout kind of way! It also made me think of the antibodies and bacteria we have been seeing in this series.
The Doctor wants Clara to stay, trying to give her a fantastic adventure (what he thinks she wants). Although, I feel he doesn’t just want a companion anymore, he wants an accomplice/partner. He doesn’t want to be alone or to have to start again with a new companion. Was the “Don’t Stop Me Now” song a subliminal message to Clara?
My only real bugbear with the episode was the explanation for the 66 seconds. In fact, when the veil was lifted from the train the curtain fell on the whodunnit element for me as a viewer. They seemed to pluck the “Phase-Shift” technobabble out of thin air. Maybe @phaseshift himself can enlighten us a bit? I was hoping they would discover the time was actually 66.6 seconds to add a bit more to the heaven/hell themes (OK, maybe the undead mummy is enough of a nod to that!).
Perkins was a curious character who definitely was playing his cards close to his chest. He seemed similar to Donna’s set-up. A popular but not necessarily “in-demand” comedian that could easily come back as a full-time companion. They completely tricked me into thinking he was going to be a permanent TARDIS occupant.
Where did they end up? Reminded me of New Earth (where the Cat people lived). The Doctor was drawing frantically in the sand but we never got to see what, more chalkboard style calculations perhaps? @phileasf, I agree the whole set up seemed suspicious. Did he really save everyone or just Perkins & Clara?
@spider I felt Clara’s change of heart robbed her speech at the end of Kill the Moon. @badwulf, @miapatrick, Clara didn’t change her mind because of Danny. She actually is deceiving Danny and lying to the Doctor. I believe she thinks she can have her fun with the Doctor and then just timehop back to Danny so he is none the wiser. Has she gone to far now? Is she unable to quit the addiction (@ScaryB)? What happens when she overdoses, a transformation into Missy perhaps!?
@jimbomcmaster – Great defense of the “soap” elements. I agree with you completely (except I am a Clara/Danny fan)
“the Doctor did give up traveling for ages and ages – in The Time of the Doctor”.
I felt the same but I thought of The Snowmen episode when he lived in the clouds (although @geoffers may have unconvinced me!). Those pesky memory worms have maybe got loose in the TARDIS!
Finally on to Gus, or is it G.U.S.?
“Augustus was an ancient Roman title given as both name and title to Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus (often referred to simply as Augustus), Rome’s first Emperor. On his death, it became an official title of his successor”
In Rome’s Greek-speaking provinces, “Augustus” was translated as Sebastos (@PhileasF you almost beat me to that one!). The Roman element would definitely point to a “mortal” being deified, becoming God-like and having power in the afterlife? Also, a bit tenuous to say the least, but we have a sarcophaGUS on board, a vessel to the afterlife!
@soundworld Great Unintelligence System? Do I win 😉
Off to refill my bucket now but I’ll leave you with a couple of awesome bits of artwork from the BBC gallery!13 October 2014 at 09:07 #33484
An unplanned baby? No way! Any baby will be timed to maximise educational advantages
Haha, that is very true! However, we may get the Doctor going off on his own, only to come back 2, 5 or 10 years later for the final episode where Clara has settled in to family life?10 October 2014 at 10:01 #33335
@oblique, @Purofilion I almost fainted when I saw you both think
Amy and Clara virtually indistinguishable-yes
No! I have always felt Amy and Clara are complete polar opposites! Where Amy was brash and determined, Clara is thoughtful and cautious. I can remember people on here remarking how, when we first met Clara, she stayed put when the Doctor asked her to. Amy would completely ignore whatever the Doctor said, in fact she usually did the opposite just to prove she could.
We still see it happening in this series. In Deep Breath, the Doctor jumps off the bridge into the icy Thames. Clara just goes back to Madame Vastra’s for a cup of tea, whereas I’m sure Amy would’ve dived in after him (maybe with Rory trying to hold her back). If anything, Clara is more like Rory <insert Rory regenerated into Clara bonkers here>.
I don’t really want another “pregnancy” story line but I like the concept of Clara trying to fulfill what she thinks her predetermined fate is. Things with Danny/Orson have got to backfire or twist somehow surely?
Also: As I said, I don’t watch much TV, but am open to recommendations 🙂
Check TV thread for some good suggestions! http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/general-open-thread-tv-shows/9 October 2014 at 16:50 #33303
@nick1235 Is there an echo in here? 😉
A lot of people have said how they thought the slo-mo shot was cheesey but in Time Heist the slo-mo shot seemed to be one of the highlights! I actually think the reverse of that. Go figure!?
When the Doctor says “that was ages ago” I think what you deduced is exactly what you are meant to think. He’s doing a lot of stuff inbetween visiting Clara. This may be a reason for her feeling a bit distant towards him.
Why do you despise Clara’s attitude? I presume you are talking about the scene near the end where she leaves the TARDIS. I could completely understand where she was coming from. How would you have reacted?9 October 2014 at 15:53 #33295
I thought Danny’s somersault was a bit unnatural but then I saw this on tumblr …
I wonder if we’ll see anymore super powers from Danny?7 October 2014 at 16:10 #332107 October 2014 at 15:39 #33208
I feel some people are over-egging the gravity of the plot so firstly (along with those awful puns) I present the origin of the moon-egg 😉
Here is some useful official BBC content that helps clear up a lot too
Quiz The Moon – bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/59bhtcgMnFZrnRF4xzPdvS7/kill-the-moon-the-quiz
(I got 8/10)
Doctor Who Extra – bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p027s01k
Do We Really Need the Moon? bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00dl61c
Being a late comer to the conversation I hope you are still interested in my thoughts on this episode
I really enjoyed this episode! After seeing a golden arrow propel a space ship out of our atmosphere I’ve watched with an “anything goes” attitude. I loved the look. The black and white style filming on the moon surface looked beautiful and so much more realistic than your average green-screening. I’d love them to do a pure black and white episode again!
The plot felt a lot like a Tennant/RTD style story (all it missed were some “Breaking News” montages!). Not scientifically accurate. Ridiculous in fact but as others have mentioned, who knows what the Moon Dragon is capable of. It could have Telekinetic powers. The “reasons” given by the astronauts were just their personal theories. Nobody understood what was happening, that was the point. Who’s to say the “Dragon” didn’t lay a small egg to which it instantly expanded due to the space vacuum environment? (LOL at the thought from @pedant of waiting to see the creature that comes to fertilise it!). Rather than complain about “plot holes” or the definition of sci-fi, why not write a “Fix the Moon” blog post. I’m sure @craig wouldn’t mind putting a few up for us to comment on.
What I personally had more of a problem with was Clara’s plan to “ask the Earth”. Would people in 2049 really get the message? How? Could you trust the lights? What if Google controls them all in 2049? Is 45mins enough to declare a democratic decision? The countdown was artificially put in place by Captain Lundvik. However, reading other’s thoughts on here made me recognise it was Clara in panic made, trying not to make the decision herself. So some fairly clever writing after all.
What I enjoyed most was that I could use the pause button on my remote! There were so many ideas thrown up in this episode that I had to keep taking a minute to ask my two sons “What would you do?”. TV hasn’t promoted this much discussion between us ever!
Kill the moon? We all said we would save the egg, mainly because you had to hope for the best. I’m pretty sure the image of the moon being an egg will always stay with my 10 y/o – the magic of TV!
Should the Doctor help? My boys thought yes at first but then decided it was our decision, as earthlings and he didn’t have a right or obligation to help. I do wonder where he went, was he just flying around the moon or did he go off into the future?
Kids in the TARDIS. My boys were very jealous of Courtney but both said they would have ran all over the TARDIS exploring. Not just sit there. I would have loved to see a few back rooms too!
Should Clara leave? My 12 y/o gave a whoop of excitement when Clara lost her rag at the end with the Doctor. Not because he dislikes Clara but because he can see their relationship isn’t working. Me and my 10 y/o think she’ll be back permanently but maybe not in the next episode.
Spiders: (@JimTheFish) The spiders/bacteria did feel like a misplaced “alien”. Considering the show’s history of spiders I was expecting a lot more out of them. I also thought “Cold War” was a much more tense and scary episode. This one missed the mark on the fear factor a bit. However, it wasn’t lost on me that we once again had a theme of size/miniturisation. Humans expect bacteria to be tiny but alien bacteria can be the size of badgers! Very reminiscent of the lethal antibodies in “Into the Dalek” – both just doing their job, protecting their host.
TARDIS: Did anyone else spot the TARDIS “laughing” when the Doctor was ridiculing Clara at the beginning of the episode. We are also reminded how Clara and the TARDIS don’t get along. This led me to find a video clip that I had previously not heard of – Clara and the TARDIS, an extra on the Complete Seventh Series DVD. Sounds interesting, will be great if anyone can track down a link of the actual footage
Courtney Blinovitch: The Doctor tells us she marries a feller called Blinovitch and becomes President of the United States! Was this a joke or was it the Doctor referring to her crossing her own timeline? In theory, as the PUSA in 2049 (at age 50?) she would have know exactly what was going on with the moon so maybe she was sabotaging the astronauts all along?
Ancestors: Lots of talk of children and, I think, specifically grand-daughters
Fuzzy/Grey Areas: I’m not surprised a few events are fuzzy and grey for the Doctor with those eyebrows getting in the way! Seriously, though, I took this to mean that there was always one timeline here but the Doctor would never have been able to travel to it because it was in his own timeline. This would be why they are fuzzy, like the TARDIS perception filter, when he is travelling through time. Maybe The Promised Land is one such fuzzy area? He could only return when Clara had locked the point of no return.
Immortality: The Doctor doesn’t know how many times he can regenerate. He is quite cavalier about the whole thing. What if Captain Jack isn’t the Face of Boe but the Doctor is! What if the sub-plot of Clara being unhappy with the Doctor isn’t a sign that she will leave but that the Doctor will! Twelve’s own internal worries may end up being to much for him to bear. He may want to reset himself/test his immortality and start again?!?
@badwulf – Thanks for the link to the Trolley problem, a great head-scratcher. Although, it doesn’t seem to include an altruistic suicide option?
@handles – as @cathannabel says, Courtney wasn’t wearing vortex manipulators, they were anti-travel-sickness bracelets
@phileasf – love your “I disliked this episode less on the second viewing“, They should put that on the boxset 😉
@thebrainofmoffat Don’t try to think of some many questions/faults, come up with some solutions, it’s much more fun! 🙂 (Fix The Moon!)6 October 2014 at 12:06 #33134
Haven’t seen Kill The Moon yet (hopefully tonight) so I’ll keep the conversation on here for now!
I had a new(?) idea about Missy. I think we are focusing a lot on who she is rather than her motives. I think the Doctor may have trapped her in the Nethersphere. She is the only living being in the Promised Land which gives her a level of authority. She only talks to people who have met the Doctor so she can gather clues as to his whereabouts. Missy is looking for a way out!
@spider, @arbutus, You talk of Clara not knowing what to do isn’t an isolated case. Remember in “Into the Dalek” the Doctor told her to go to the “memory” banks and do something and she didn’t have a clue what. Also, I think I remember in Deep Breath she was fairly happy to wait for the Doctor to come back and tell her what to do when he disappeared.
I don’t think it’s anything in particular but just a common human panic mode! Amy was very assertive and would do whatever the heck she’d like whereas Clara seems more cautious and lacking in self-belief a bit. Only when she is pushed to the very edge does she seem to act.
@badwulf In regards to the present tense thoughts; I don’t mind it. It gives you a sense that anything could happen. With past tense you know it’s going to be alright in the end because someone lived to tell the tale!3 October 2014 at 09:36 #32885
@idiotsavon My old youth theatre director defined drama as
The extraordinary happening to the ordinary
Anything else is a documentary 😉1 October 2014 at 16:51 #32830
Thanks @phaseshift, sounds good to me!
I’ll probably watch it live and give my kids the edited highlights!1 October 2014 at 09:07 #32821
@Handles Glad to here Gotham has made a good start, I’d heard from a few people on twitter that it was a bit dull for them.
It’s being broadcast on Channel 5 from mid-October so I’ll definitely be watching/recording it. Is it suitable for 10-13 year olds or more of a grown up affair?30 September 2014 at 17:01 #32782
I finally managed to watch the episode last night. It felt very much like an episode of the Sarah Jane Adventures, whether that was because of the writer, location, ‘monster’ or the fact of watching sci-fi on a school night! This is a long post (which is becoming a habit of mine here), please let me know if you want me to be a little more concise!
First of all Otter Who is a thing now!
I’d suggest that everyone here goes to the official BBC Doctor Who website after each episode. It usually clears up a lot of facts and references for me. Here’s the one for The Caretaker – bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3rplSFcj3ZSHPhgk3NPYMRL/the-caretaker-fact-file
Was the Police Officer actaully a PCSO? He certainly had the right hat. It also fits in with the theme of a lower-rank/greater risk
I found Danny really interesting in this episode. He seems completely ordinary most of the time but then he’ll give a look that implies an ulterior motive or subliminal thought. Notice how he thinks it is quite plausible that Clara and the Doctor are aliens. Considering how most humans in other episodes like to dismiss there existence I felt this slightly odd. There was also “UFO” in grafitti outside the old building where the Skovox Blitzer was hiding (note for @BadWulf The Blitzer was atracted to Arton energy in a nearby old building. It wasn’t actually in the school until the Doctor lured it there!).
I had really high hopes for the Blitzer at the beginning of the episode. He seemed to be a mix of other monsters. Silurian head, Cyberman body, Dalek Eyes and lots of Auton mannequins lying around. At first I wondered if the Doctor had created it and planted it there as an excuse to spend more time with Clara and show him how exciting and wonderful he is. However, turns out it wasn’t nearly as creative as that! Just another “deadliest” robot that went to the Stormtrooper School of Shooting
Clara mentions Orson Pink to the Doctor but no word of Rupert. I wish she would be a bit more upfront with both of them about this! When Danny asks Clara why she travels with the Doctor she says it was because of the awesome things she sees. I was expecting her to talk about how the Doctor is a Good Man and they need eachother, not just that time and space travel is cool.
Danny also straight away calls out the Doctor as being Clara’s Dad. Is that too obvious?
Danny spoiled the Doctor’s original plan but ended up being the inspiration for the successful plan, very loopy. He seems to have turned from Dan Dan the Soldier Man to Dan Dan the Action Man. What a jump!
The Doctor kept referring to Danny as a P.E. teacher. This made me think he has actually been spying on Danny already. Danny does, after all, run a before-school Coal Hill Cadets club.
You really get a sense of PTSD when Clara walks Danny down the steps after nearly being sucked into the time-hole/vortex thing. Almost like he was having some kind of flashback.
The behaved just how I expected him to this whole episode. The only thing I didn’t get was why he didn’t evacuate the school?
I loved the whole Adrian (Matt-Smith-a-like) confusion. Did you spot Adrain wanted to talk to Clara about The Tempest. I’m no expert but isn’t that a story of an exiled magician duke conjuring up a storm to give his daughter her rightful place of power?
Most people here seem to like the Courtney Woods character yet I remember an outcry previously when we had kids in the TARDIS. I really don’t like her at the moment. I think that is because I knew too many nasty girls like her when I was in school! I’ll give her a chance to redeem herself now the Doctor has opened her eyes. “Courtney Woods” is an anagram of “Doctors New You”, a message for Clara perhaps?
@nick1235 “The Doctor said : “I had one teacher EXACTLY like you” – another time travel event for Clara to the Gallifrey?”
Great spot Nick, that’s a great idea for a Claricle
My thoughts on “Heaven”
@flirtingdinosaur “Missy is back. Although she pretty much kicks all of our theories in the gut.”
My thoughts exactly! I was sure it would be the Blitzer ending up in heaven and instead we get the PCSO (including his hands). So presumably Heaven has nothing to do with robots but also, if the burnt hands where the PCSO’s and not a mannequin then they aren’t physically being teleported there, it’s a reconstruction or virtualistaion.
The white room reminded me of a scene from another show, possibly a cartoon or maybe Bill & Ted 2. Is Heaven actually Hell? Is that what the PCSO saw when he looked out the window? Does every door in that long corridor lead to an individuals own personal hell? Similar to The God Complex too I suppose.
The word Nether-sphere implies a bubble or orb where things are contained separate to everything else. A bubble universe perhaps?
@fivefaces Congrats, you spotted a Roman link! The man in the Nethersphere was called Seb. A quick look at wikipedia reveals the name has roots in Ancient Rome and Greece. Deriving from the words for <span style=”color: #252525;”>”awe, reverence, dread, shame”. It also sticks with this series’ religious theme thanks to Saint Sebastian</span>
I’m guessing that every death means a trip to the Nethersphere/Heaven. In other words, it is really the same as the idea that Earthlings have of an Afterlife. I think the Doctor has already stated there is no such thing in a previous episode so he must be completely unaware of Missy’s antics. Missy only has tea with people that can tell her about the Doctor. Perhaps she wants to swap places with him and escape the Promised Land?
A few other side notes
@phileasf I haven’t quoted you in my post but I always enjoy reading your insights, you always seem to see something that I don’t
@blenkinsopthebrave Now it is time for more coffee to ruminate on “the promised land”
I read that as “Now it is time for more coffee to urinate on “the promised land”! A good place to finish 😉30 September 2014 at 13:25 #3276526 September 2014 at 12:05 #32518
Writing in need of some consolation …
1) I am going to a party tomorrow night. Although it’s going to be really good fun and I am looking forward to it a lot I have a feeling that a Doctor Who screening isn’t on the agenda. Oh well, that’s what iPlayer is for.
2) Slightly more worrying is that my middle son (13th birthday next month) told me over dinner that he isn’t really bothered about Doctor Who any more and only watches it to make me happy! Bundled with the fact that we can’t watch it live tomorrow I fear we may be down to a 2/5 Whovian family :'(24 September 2014 at 14:44 #32476
@blenkinsopthebrave, I’m pretty sure as soon as the “woman in the shop” was first mentioned in The Bells of St John we were all jumping up and down saying it must be Susan!
It was then strengthened as a possibility when Clara said “So that’s who” when reading the “Time War” book in Journey to the Center of the Tardis and again in Day of the Doctor when she lingered at the photo of Susan in UNIT’s Black Archive24 September 2014 at 14:13 #32471
I’m not sure if I go for “Courtney = Susan”
Although I’m sure a lot of fans (me included) would like to get an appearance from her I don’t actually want her to become a regular companion. If it turns out she was a regenerated Courtney then it is a bit bizarre she goes to school still! Presumably she could find the Doctor if needed, she doesn’t need to hang around Coal Hill waiting for him to show up.
When (not if) we do meet Susan again it surely has to involve Carole Ann Ford, either for a flash back or a full blown regeneration.
Courtney would be too similar along the “Mels”-River Song path
I only just found out she returned to the show in subsequent episodes, am I correct in thinking the last was The Five Doctors? How was she left then?23 September 2014 at 15:47 #32430
Thanks @phileasf, some really deep insight there.
I’m downloading that ebook as we speak 😀 http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/76023 September 2014 at 14:13 #32427
@bluesqueakpip ahh so because the Doctor is aware he is in a loop he is able to maintain it.
Mind you, it would have been easier if he went back in time and stopped Karabraxos capturing the Teller in the first place! Mind you, that would probably have much wider consequences e.g. A bank owned by the Teller creatures with a fearsome Karabroxos protecting it from within a glass tank 😉23 September 2014 at 10:51 #32419
Not sure if this will help anyone but it helped me (a bit)
I present my wibbly-wobbly-agram (the Year dates were made up just for illustrative purposes)
So, was there a paradox and did the Doctor cross his own timeline?
I think we can say that the Doctor didn’t cross his timeline, all he did was leave clues for a future version of himself
The paradox is actually Karabraxos.
She couldn’t have called the Doctor without getting his number but she couldn’t have got his number without calling him!
Is that how others see this episode or am I bonking up the wrong tree?22 September 2014 at 20:39 #32373
@phileasf – I thought that was a ridiculous theory at first “Everybody Lives!” but the more I read what you said the more possible it could be. Especially as the whole Time Heist episode was basically the Doctor getting his past self to do something
@juniperfish, Listen didn’t prove there was a family link, it just implied that perhaps, Clara and Orson where related, maybe.
@handles I also realised that the actor who played Psi is in a CBBC program where he plays a young Da Vinci himself so it may have just been a nod to that (Boo! far too rational). I think you are barking up the wrong tree with the phone call. Old Karabraxos called the Doctor as we saw on screen. They then travelled to see Old K and worked out a good plan, planted the cases, then travelled to the past to use the memory worms and put the plan into action. Do you follow?22 September 2014 at 14:10 #32360
Now for my replies…
@idiotsavon congrats on the “Don’t Think” prediction. It seems like we are being asked to go against our human nature a lot this series.
@bluesqueakpip Was the teleport really the same effect as Gretchen’s? I didn’t recognise it as such. Are you saying that from memory or did you go back and double check!?
@scaryb – Doctor wrote “I am a time traveller” and phone number so the Director would keep it safe. She values the worth of this information so will keep it safe until she is ready to exploit it. The Doctor correctly predicted that in old age she would feel guilty enough about the Teller creatures to use it.
In regards to where Psi was downloading all of the villains from, presumably the Bank had a “most-wanted” list to look out for, and as the Teller was meant to protect the bank first and foremost, he always saw to the biggest threat first.
I also thought it was very Douglas Adams, it even looked a bit similar to the (awful) HGTTG film.
@handles Karabroxos got the TARDIS number from the Doctor in her vault, near the end of the episode. Then, many years later (in her timeline), old Karabroxos called him in the past to ask him to rescue the Teller monsters … timey wimey.
@serahni I like how Clara’s not always willing to jump in the TARDIS. It shows how human she is. I think the Doctor is trying to avoid another Amy/Rory departure by interrupting her life all the time at unnecessary moments. He could easily give her a year off. He should really get an older companion, like Wilf, or maybe another robot!
@banjofiddler – My boys and I all noticed that weird smile Clara had, not very appropriate but I’m guessing it was just a blooper!
@theatreguy @bluesqueakpip – good points. There was certainly something that struck a bell with her when she spoke to Psi, about him wiping his memories to protect family and friends. It made me think of Donna (@Mudlark beat me to it!)
@acciotardis – Nice name, does it work? I’m thinking Clara is annoyed that she is mentally ready for a date and then gets interrupted. She knows the Doctor can return her to the same time (or close enough) but its a bit of a mind-f@#$!. Also, those trips with the Doctor aren’t always the safest option! The “chance of death” is very high with his little trips.
@phileasf Good spot on Danny speaking words out of order.
The Teller’s orange overalls were very similar to Orson’s. Not sure if that is some kind of link or just more of a “prison-orange” look.
@gothamcelt The old air-vent trick is a bit cliche but remember, no-one is supposed to be able to get that far so why would they add unnecessary layers of security?
@brewski I saw in one of the Extra shows that Orson’s “round things” were made from a re-purposed Dalek mould! They still like to cut costs where possible so I don’t think the patterns in the bank were meant to be linked22 September 2014 at 13:52 #32359
Enjoyed reading all your thoughts, I’ll be @’ing my replies in a separate post.
A good episode. Doesn’t stand out as one that will be remembered much but still very enjoyable. These are exactly the standalone style of episodes that my wife loves, ironically, she didn’t watch this one!
I loved the design of the Teller. The way his eye stalks moved looked great. However, he lost a bit of his edge when he took his prison suit off to reveal a very BG style man-in-a-suit. The Doctor dropped them of in a very heavenly looking place. Was Missy on the other side of that mountain range? At least the Doc now has another ally on his side if he needs to extract some memories from somebody.
Speaking of memories. Do you think the neophyte circuit that Psi got only restores digital memories, like an undelete button, or would it work on biological memories too?
I was 100% convinced from the start that Psi was off to the Promised Land. D’oh, tricked again!
I understood the motive and plot for the Time Heist, but I still can’t figure out if it was a paradox or not. A timeline diagram would be very useful. I may have a go later if I find the time.
Something my 10 year old spotted, were the soldiers at the beginning Clergy? Their camouflage uniforms looked very similar. Where did they come from as they seemed to disappear early on.
Anyone else spot how the Doctor was visibly out of breath after the traditional run through the corridors sequence. I have a feeling this is more of a mind-over-patter Doctor
We have shape-shifters and clones in this episode, we can never trust what we see on screen now!
Saibra calls the Doctor “A Good Man” so that puts a tick in that box for him.
The Doctor ponders why the Teller is forced to do Karabraxos’ will. We later discover it is because the creature’s partner is imprisoned. Could this be mirroring the Doctor’s life? Is this why he really travels all over the universe, to find his lost partner?
I got all excited when I thought Karabraxos was a Roman name, however, it turns out it is more Greek. In fact, I got Google to churn out that Kara = land and Braxos = Rock. Not sure how accurate or important that is. Any Greeks on the forum?
Luckily, the BBC site (that @wolfweed) linked earlier points out a Roman reference that I completely missed! Not just Rome but religion and military links too!
The Doctor mentions an encounter with Cesare Borgia, the Italian nobleman, politician and cardinal born in Rome in the 1470s. He was the brother of the notorious Lucrezia Borgia and widely regarded as a capable general and statesman, ultimately undone by his reliance on his father – Pope Alexander VI. At one point Cesare employed the Doctor’s old friend Leonardo da Vinci as a military architect and engineer and it’s possible that this is when their paths crossed.19 September 2014 at 11:07 #32069
@purofilion 😀19 September 2014 at 10:03 #32051
@RickGreen If you don’t work for the show then how could you possibly know your are correct? As we’ve seen as recently as the Robots of Sherwood episode, things can be changed a few days before actual broadcast.
It doesn’t look anything like Straxx and your theory doesn’t even make sense. He can’t time travel and if he could he wouldn’t be sneaking around under blankets, he’d be blasting in through the window!
You don’t get points on here for guessing correctly, that’s why we call it “theorising”19 September 2014 at 09:38 #32047
What’s all this on the sofa?
Was the Rose & Crown shut last night?
I’ll spray a bit of Febreeze on the cushions to freshen everything up a bit for the weekend18 September 2014 at 11:53 #32018
@fivefaces, @pedant I’m surprised they put it on so late. I know a lot of friends with younger children who just simply won’t let their kids stay up that late. It also implies that there is something risque happening as part of the episode will be on after the 9pm watershed, thus another reason kids may be prevented from watching it.
For me, it is a bit late, it is one of the few things that we all sit around the telly for after a treat Saturday night takeaway. One of the downsides of “catch-up” TV is that the family tends to do it on their own terms, rather than all together. Also, we like to have our boys shipped off by 9pm so we can get the wine out!
I can see the headlines now – “The BBC is destroying family life“, “Record Ratings Slump for Doctor Who“18 September 2014 at 11:29 #32017
@janetteb, @spider I re-watched most of Listen last night and I noticed that Orson’s time machine is actually called a Time Shot (it is even written on the walls of the ship). This implies it was meant to just jump to one place and never make a return journey. I suppose they would have had some contingency plan if it ‘shot’ too far, i.e. extra clothes, rations.
I also intently watched the scene with Rupert, where the ‘thing’ is under the red blanket. When the blanket is pulled away it doesn’t really look human, although it does have rather angry eyebrows and a wider than normal face!
Also, I noticed how Rupert says “It took my blanket!”. Originally I thought that was just a funny line but now I’m wondering/hoping we might see the blanket again at a later date. I thought it might appear in Orson’s Time Shot but I couldn’t see it there.
I also noticed Clara loves to hug a cup of tea.
Clara + Tea, Clara-tea, Clarity!?17 September 2014 at 15:01 #31968
@wcasey5 I still don’t see why he would need to use UV paint! Why not just barricade the door or write on it with permanent marker?17 September 2014 at 09:59 #31960
Good Morning 😀
Looks like it has been a very busy night on here, great to read all the new voices.
For those commenting on the Doctor finding Gallifrey – I think that is a mystery for the next 50 years (as Moffatt alluded to), it’s not going to be found anytime soon and we should probably forget about it for a bit.
The extra seat in Orson’s ‘ship’ – Funny that they put in an extra seat but no tumble-dryer (as Orson mentions in the ‘Extra’ clips) . I thought all clothes were meant to be self-cleaning by then anyway?
It got me thinking though, especially as something didn’t feel quite right in the atmosphere on the ship. Why would Orson write that message to himself, and why use a marker that can only be seen at night? More likely, there was another person on the ship and someone was trying to pass the message on in a secret way.
What I’m thinking is the real Orson was captured by “The Monster” after opening the door. The Monster could have shape-shifting abilities to take on Orson’s appearance to enable him to get back to the past. Too far fetched?
I’m very suspicious of the whole Danny/Orson character. Clara seems to like him, and usually when things start going well fo a character it’s the lead up to a major boat-load of pain!
P.S. @bluesqueakpip What typewriter scene? I’ve got no idea what episode/aliens you are referring to!?