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I think this gets back to different people’s expectations for Doctor Who. Personally I love the emotional resonance that powers so many of the Doctor’s stories. I think one of the reasons I liked Donna so much is because she wore her heart on her sleeve. Her emotional power struck a chord with the Doctor, often at just the time he needed it. The same is true with the other new-era companions and their respective relationships with the Doctor. Without that, I think I would find Doctor Who far less engaging.

Am I overly sentimental, or somehow bringing the show down because I appreciate an emotionally true story over a fastidiously logical one? I don’t think so. For the record, I don’t like so-called chick flicks. If I can sense the wheels of emotional manipulation turning, I rebel. But when a story draws me in, rather than resorting to maudlin cliches, I’m in. For whatever reason, this works for me in Doctor Who. But obviously it is not to everyone’s tastes.

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@lisa @purofilion I enjoy your splendid expansions on my theory. But now my brain is done trying to tease this out. Can you believe this is keeping me up at nights? It is! (That and too much caffeine yesterday and today.)

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Hmmm, @lisa that could indeed be the reason for the sonic sunglasses. The Doctor sees her as Clara, and somehow the sunglasses make it so that everyone else (except the Tardis) sees her that way. And except for Lady Me, who is there to let the Doctor know she knows exactly what’s going on. Maybe thanks to Missy, who unlike River is big on spoilers.

Returning to @kharis and her remarkable catch on Me/Ashildr’s wardrobe as she photobombed Clara’s selfie with her student, I wonder if she dressed up like Clara’s mother because Clara’s mother, and father, and the leaf, were nothing more than a story that Clara believes is her own? Clara has a journal with the leaf, correct? Maybe the journal included a description of her mother, and Lady Me (who has written so many of her own journals) has read it. Clara believes these stories in much the same way Dalek Oswin believed she was still human. Why would Clara need stories? Same reason Oswin needed to distract herself with Carmen and souffles. I wonder if, after jumping into the Doctor’s time stream, Clara was changed, no longer truly human … but a hybrid? And now, with Missy’s help, she has been transformed even further. Ah, the imagination runs wild!

Still, didn’t Davros accuse the Doctor of being responsible for creating the hybrid? Hard to see how he could be blamed for this, since it was Clara’s idea (and River tried to stop her) to jump into the Doctor’s time stream. And then it was Missy who shoved her into the Dalek. Hmmm … I like my theory for its dramatic possibilities, but it’s a giant plot sieve.

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I have a little trouble with the idea that Me/Ashildr is impersonating Clara, and the Doctor wouldn’t spot it. After all, in the Christmas special he said he always saw Clara as Clara, even when she was an aged Clara. There was a brief moment when we in the audience saw the younger Clara, and then she was the older one again. The Doctor doesn’t see appearances, but rather the essential personality, I think.

My hugely bonkers theory (except I can’t work out in my mind how this would be pulled off) is that Clara has been trapped inside the Dalek ever since Missy shoved her in there. The Doctor knows this, but is shielding her from the knowledge. Now, how would he make it so that everyone else sees Clara, and not a Dalek? A hologram wouldn’t be convincing enough, and couldn’t interact with others the way Clara has. Obviously I’m not smart enough to figure out my own theory. So much for my plot-writing abilities!

Having said that (because I just can’t let go): Would that explain why the Cloister Bell keeps going off like mad? If a Dalek is on board the Tardis, isn’t that a dire emergency, one of the most serious threats the Doctor could face? But I don’t recall the Cloister Bell going off at the end of this last episode, when Clara greeted the Doctor. So there goes that idea.

Would this fulfill Davros’ hybrid prophecy? Probably not, since that’s what Daleks do anyway. Another area where my bonkers theory falls short.

However … if my bonkers theory turns out to be more or less accurate, then I see Clara coming back full circle to the tragedy that was Oswin. And it will be even more heartbreaking, given what she means to the Doctor.

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@seeoswald So little use? Clearly you need to get around more. One or two posts a day constitutes “little use” in my book. But that was feigned indignation, of that I am sure. A common fallback, when all else fails. of trolls.

As for the quality of the scripts, “eye of the beholder” and all. And Eccleston? We’ll agree to disagree.

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Thanks for the kind words, @purofilion and @gamergirlavatar !

You know what hooked me on Chris Eccleston’s Doctor? “Everybody lives, Rose! Just this once — everybody lives!” I still get chills remembering his unbridled joy and exuberance. In fact, I think I must revisit “The Doctor Dances” again!

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@countscarlioni I was thinking exactly the same thing. Maybe the reason we’re seeing and hearing these anachronisms is because Ashildr has been traveling up and down her time line. And here’s a good argument for Missy entering the picture. The Doctor refused to take Ashildr along with him. Wouldn’t that be the very thing Missy might seize upon? Missy could grant Ashildr’s wish to jump ahead in time, visit other worlds, etc., knowing that would open up loads of manipulation possibilities for her. And we saw in this episode that Ashildr is vulnerable to manipulation from others, if they dangle the right carrot in front of her.

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@ichabod

In the second, yes, she could still be in the dalek and hallucinating the rest of S9; it just feels like a heck of a stretch to me (thoroughly appropriate for bonkerizing, of course).  Could Clara hallucinate the deaf woman’s experience of being followed down the corridor by the axe ghost for example?  Anything is possible, but . . . ?  Maybe I have missed a crucial step here?

Well … think back to Oswin. She didn’t realize she was a Dalek till the Doctor forced her to see it. She thought she was cooking souffles, but it was only when the Doctor asked her where the eggs came from that she thought to question it. Might we be in a similar situation here? After all, we’re not seeing her life on earth anymore. When was the last time we saw her in a classroom? I’m thinking it was the season premiere. Then again, there’s that photo of her with her student (and Ashildr off in the background) that she showed the Doctor. Hmmm, bonkers theory blown, perhaps.

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My first Doctor was David Tennant. Hubby and I watched “Smith and Jones” during our trans-Atlantic flight to Denmark back in 2007, and I was hooked. Back in Canada, we watched Doctor Who on the Space channel. Stayed hooked.

Then, a couple of years ago, we got Netflix. I thought David Tennant could do no wrong, really hadn’t kept up with Matt Smith’s Doctor at all. So when we decided to start with Chris Eccleston’s Doctor, I figured he couldn’t hold a candle to Tennant. I was wrong! I fell in love with the Doctor, his Doctor, all over again. Worked my way through his first season, was rather sad to see him go, then moved on to Tennant and realized, to my surprise, that his first season didn’t exactly hit the ground running. It actually took him (and, I assume, the writers) a while to figure out who this Doctor was. But then that season picked up steam, and I enjoyed watching the development of that version of the Doctor.

Then Matt Smith’s Doctor came around, and he really did hit the ground running. I was impressed by the strong start to this new Doctor, which was a very different imagining of the role from either Eccleston or Tennant. The only problem is that starting off at such a manic pace means you can only build on that, so by the end of Smith’s run, I felt he was suffering from an overdose of mania and an underwritten companion. It was a relief to slow things down a notch with Peter Capaldi’s Doctor, and also see some vastly improved writing for his companion, Clara, who no longer felt like a placeholder but a more fully realized character. The chemistry between them in Seasons 8 and 9 has put them on equal footing, IMO, with all the other great companions and their complex relationships with the Doctor.

I write this only to point out what is probably true for many others: I enjoy all the Doctors equally, all for different reasons. Admittedly I have only really watched the new-era Doctors. Someday I will set aside some time to play catch-up with the others. I’m sure I will enjoy them, too.

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@kharis Brilliant catch on the clothing match! I never would have remembered that about Clara’s mom, much less paid attention to what Ashildr was wearing way back in the background. Bravo!

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@ramzeppelin I’m sorry that Doctor Who has become so unenjoyable for you. Your “truth” is different from mine, and we have very different perceptions. For me, it’s the only currently running show that I actually look forward to watching. I don’t see any “agenda” (liberal or otherwise) being applied. Certainly writers bring their viewpoints into a story, and I find that writers often write from their own emotional understanding. So there is a tendency to tinge historical fiction with modern constructs, however unintentionally.

Me/Ashildr is something of a modern woman, I agree. However, she disguised herself with a man’s voice, costume and a mask when she was doing her highwayman gig. She adapted in order to succeed. That’s a trait of human beings throughout history. So I wouldn’t call that having a liberal agenda, but rather trying to imagine what kind of person a young woman coping with immortality might develop into as she lives through the ages, and all around her die. It’s an intriguing puzzle, one that countless writers have taken on. It’s especially appropriate for Doctor Who, given its time-travel theme … not to mention how it addresses the Doctor’s tendency to abandon people like Ashildr, failing to stick around and really live that life, with all its ramifications and consequences, with them.

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For me the episode was a bit plodding due to Clara’s absence. Which makes me realize that I will miss her when she’s not there. It was so nice to see her there at the end, but of course it also reminded us of how keenly the Doctor will miss her, depending on what her ultimate fate is. I also wonder how much he knows of what is to come. His forlorn look, in response to Clara’s comment, “I’m not going anywhere,” implies that he knows something.

@purofilion I too remember the Doctor’s “I never said it was your mistake” reply to that “I’m not your boyfriend” exchange he had with Clara. I do not read “girlfriend/boyfriend” into their hug. It’s a hug of affection, and also of reassurance. I’ve never been much of a hugger, mainly because my family was never into it. But my maternal grandmother was, and oh how I, as a child, cherished her kisses and hugs. They reassured me and made me feel the world was all right. And also that I was a person who was worth loving. Being physically demonstrative toward others is a way of expressing that. Though I still remember the Doctor’s comment about a hug being a way of hiding your face. There’s truth in that, too.

Like others, I’m guessing that Me/Ashildr has had a talk or two with Missy. But I also wonder about River Song, and of course other companions she may be following. And what about Donna? I know I’m a broken record on this subject, but I so keep hoping for her to return, if for no other reason than to give her a better ending to her time as a companion. I would find it very satisfying for Donna to meet “this face” with whom she played such a crucial role.

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I figured I wasn’t alone!

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OK, am I the only one who watched the preview for next week and went “Squeeee!” at a returning familiar face? (Not sure I can say who it is, but said familiar face and name were clearly revealed in the preview.)

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OK, I stand corrected. I rewatched “Asylum of the Daleks” (along with “Fires of Pompeii” and “Last Christmas”) last night. Oswin is a bit of a motor-mouth, too. So Coleman really has become more deft with Clara … not that she was a slouch to begin with. But I do agree that there’s more substance now than with her initial companion incarnations. Those early Claras seemed to lack the energy and wit that Oswin had. She reclaimed it last season, and I still think that’s just due to better writing for the character, giving her more to work with.

Also, Dalek Oswin does say, “… remember me.” But Carmen Oswin says, “Run, you clever boy … and remember.”

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@purofilion @ichabod I agree with what you’re saying about Clara becoming more interesting, less of a motor-mouth, because of the more nuanced acting Coleman is bringing to the role. And it could very well be due to her maturing as an actress. Yet I keep going back to her Oswin/Dalek incarnation. Am I wrong in remembering that as being closer to the Clara we’re seeing this season? I may have to go back and watch that episode again. I feel that perhaps she’s just getting better writing, in terms of more depth. Not in terms of plot; she got loads of plot last season. But maybe more direction in terms of who Clara is, at her core. So Coleman can do more with that.

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@tommo The phrase really is “Run, you clever boy … and remember”:

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@pedant OK, fair enough. Young person, then? Not a child, but not yet an adult either.

@lisa I must not have been watching closely enough. I saw only one helmet. Good catch! I can’t recall the final outcome for the sonic sunglasses.

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@lisa You are right, Missy said that to Clara, something long the lines of there being loads of nano-tech fixing the damage as the Dalek feed went in. Problem is, no one knows exactly what happens when it comes out. I’ve been wondering about that. Plus, wasn’t Clara still inside the Dalek when the Doctor gave up some of his regeneration energy? Methinks Ashildr isn’t the only hybrid for whom the Doctor is responsible. But if Clara does turn out to be a hybrid, who gets the credit? Missy or the Doctor? Both?

Also, the Doctor is tired of losing people, but at least he is coming at it from the point of view of an adult. Not a human, but an adult Gallifreyan. Ashildr is still quite young. So mightn’t that be a problem, having someone who is immortal, but equipped with the emotional intelligence and self-awareness of a teen? If he thinks his emotions cause him to do irrational and/or unwise things, what of hers?

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@lisa

My question is how did there come to be only 2 chips? There were a lot of mire. I have
to re watch but it seems to me that there could have been more then 2 that the Doctor could
have taken. I think I’m missing something.

Didn’t those two chips come from the helmet of the one they grabbed for Ashildr to wear? All the rest left ahead of Odin, as I recall.

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@bluesqueakpip The Cloister Bell ringing again caught my attention. Is this going to be part of the entire arc this season?

@juniperfish, I too liked the Doctor’s wardrobe this time around. It integrates Capaldi’s punk-rock past into that magician’s outfit. Missed the guitar riffs in the theme, though. I guess that was a one-time thing.

One thing I noticed is that Ashildr and Clara look rather alike, at least to me. Both have big eyes. Connection?

I was happy that the Doctor finally realized why he chose that face. I still dream that Donna will come back and have her memories with the Doctor restored … without harming her, of course. But I suspect that may be just a dream.

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@miapatrick

I’ve even seen conversations get a little heated on this site, but then everyone seems to calm down and not declare war and that is a rare thing on the internet and worth protecting ;).

I so agree, and how wonderful this lovely little haven is for it! It’s not that people agree on everything; I’ve seen a fair bit of debate just in the short time I’ve been here. The difference is that by and large this debate is conducted with at least a modicum of respect. People have differing opinions, but they are open to others’ opinions. It’s not “I’M RIGHT, and you all are idiots,” but “This is my opinion, and you’re welcome to try to change my mind (not that I will, necessarily, but the door is open).” I like that. How I wish all Internet discourse was conducted in that manner.

Re: the Fisher King dying in the flood, even if it were a water creature, mightn’t it have been killed by the crushing force of the water rushing in?

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It took two viewings before my head hurt a little less on this one. “Bootstrap paradox” still has my brain all atwitter. I think I need to read some posts here to understand it better. And watch it a third time.

Did O’Donnell remind anyone else just a tad of Amelia Pond? Something about her facial expressions and voice, and maybe her “fan girl” eagerness pushed my mind in that direction. I admit I caved to the thought that she might be a future companion … but of course that option was nullified.

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Hubby and I watched the episode again last night. Chuckled anew at the flash cards Clara prepared for the Doctor (as well as her facial expressions), but our favourite laugh-out-loud moment was when the Doctor asked, “Anything else I should know? Someone got a peanut allergy or something?”

Wish I could offer some sort of bonkers theory as to how this is going to be resolved, but I’m barely keeping up as it is. I love reading everyone else’s thoughts, though!

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How wonderfully thrilling this was! A scary, standalone ghost story … except that it wasn’t standalone, LOL! We have to wait till next week to see how it finishes. Argh! I agree with @serahni that the hearing-impaired character will be create some sort of resolution for this dilemma. It’s practically telegraphed to us. But, even knowing that, I’m excited to see how she will resolve it.

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@bluesqueakpip You are not alone in your loathing of acronyms. I’ve wasted, oh, probably half a lifetime sitting here trying to figure them out. Some of us just don’t immediately grasp those trails of alphabet soup.

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@mudlark @serahni

I see that you both have beaten me to it. Sorry, I should have read all the replies before posting!

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Re: the debate of “dumbing down” Clara for the sake of the script, I wonder if it might be something far simpler than what we have discussed. Maybe she was feeling an emotional resonance, a memory buried deep down but still there, of her Oswin incarnation who was permanently trapped inside a Dalek. Wouldn’t that induce a state of shock? After all, the terrors Clara has faced before were yet to come, possibilities that were never fully realized because she, like the Doctor, believes she will win. But those traces of Oswin must be somewhere in her consciousness. I know I have been waiting to see them come to the fore. So maybe that knowledge of a such a terrible fate is what struck Clara.

When Missy was taunting Clara and going on about how stupid she is, I thought that was just Missy being the manipulative bully that she is. Clara wasn’t being stupid, she was figuring things out. But Missy seemed to enjoy toying with her and demeaning her, making her feel stupid. Bullies are very good at pulling the rug out from under the people they have targeted, finding their weaknesses and magnifying them so that the individual loses confidence, even if only momentarily. Missy was inflicting psychological manipulation on Clara. And, in this, Clara is no match for Missy, who has been at this a long, long time.

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@arbutus I think that the Daleks will be far more interesting as a species with the potential for things other than xenophobia and slaughter. Moffat or future writers could take this in interesting directions.

This was one of the things I’d long been tiring of with the Daleks. They were pretty much a one-note foe, seemingly brought back for nostalgic purposes. But understanding that the beings trapped inside are actually screaming different things than “Exterminate!” … well, that creates a whole new chilling understanding of them. I thought Jenna Coleman captured that perfectly. I was wondering if we would see a flashback to her Oswin Oswald incarnation inside the Dalek, but maybe our seeing Clara in a nearly identical scenario was enough. No hitting us over the head with it.

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I’m reading through everyone’s posts and gaining even more understanding of the episode. I really can’t add to the wonderful insights everyone has posted. I found Clara being trapped inside a Dalek (echoes of her Oswin incarnation) absolutely chilling. I feared that, as this was where we first met Jenna Coleman, this might be our parting of ways. I’m happy that didn’t happen … though not for lack of trying by Missy.

Stellar acting by everyone. The reactions of the Doctor as Davros appeared vulnerable were so believable. While I figured that Davros was pulling a deception over the Doctor, it was a masterful one … though not quite masterful enough. I think the reason Davros could pull it off so well is because he truly believes some of it (though which part is anybody’s guess). This seemed to reflect the overarching theme that no one is solely good, or bad. We’re seeing those shadings in Missy.

Favourite line: “Your sewers are revolting.” Love the double-entendre!

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@mudlark I noticed the same thing you did, that for both Missy and Clara, their vaporized “skeletons” appeared when they were shot. So I think they were either killed, or Davros has created some sort of illusion for the Doctor to witness. Either way, I’m thinking his plan is to coerce the Doctor to travel back in time and make a different decision about saving Davros. “Careful what you wish for”? We shall see.

Overall, I loved this episode (though I shall love it even more without commercial interruptions). Capaldi’s Doctor is fully realized now, and I’m looking forward to seeing how this plays out as the season progresses. Also, Clara strikes me as being stronger than in her previous seasons. She now has the spark that I recall from Oswin, which is why I looked forward to the idea of her being a companion. And then I felt that spark was lost in her “Impossible Girl” incarnations. She regained it throughout last season, but I still felt there was something missing. Now, without Danny, and seemingly without any solid emotional grounding to her life on Earth, she seems more … not exactly reckless, because she does care about consequences. But she is not torn between the inner conflict of her “addiction” to time travel and her commitment to Danny (and the lies that conflict necessitated). So she can fully commit to her companionship with the Doctor. In my opinion, this was reason enough to bring the character back for one more season.

One more thing: I was happy that we started out, crack off the bat, on some planet other than Earth. I can understand the reasons for sticking so close throughout much of last season, but I missed the alien locales that lend excitement and fear of the unknown to Doctor Who. It was refreshing to start this new season in that territory.

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Sorry, it appears that I have set off something of a firestorm. The news was all over my Facebook page, and elsewhere, so as others have said, since it was that widespread, I didn’t consider it a spoiler. But I will think more carefully about that in the future. Again, my apologies.

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Hopefully I am posting this in the correct thread. I saw this in my Facebook newsfeed today:

Jenna Coleman ‘leaving’ Doctor Who

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@arbutus It’s true that Courtney barely knew the Doctor. Yet (and correct me if I’m misremembering this) wasn’t she spying on him? I’m not sure how long that had been going on, but as I recall she was keeping tabs on his comings and goings. And then, to have the Tardis revealed to her, and to get a sense of what the Doctor was capable of … well, maybe it wasn’t so much about her knowing him, but her idea of him as some sort of idol. The Doctor was surely the most powerful being to enter her life, and she sensed that at some level. So getting reassurance from him would be special.

@purofilion You expanded on Clara’s reaction, and plausible reasons behind it, far better than I. Thank you.

@arbutus But I completely agree with you about Clara. I enjoy her as a character, but I would loathe such a personality type in real life.

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@arbutus I do agree that Clara’s reaction was an overreaction. But I also think her overreaction was justified. She was absolutely terrified at having that kind of power. Strange, too, since she’s a self- and other-described control freak. Yet I think she didn’t realize how terrifying it is to have the Doctor’s peculiar destiny-changing power. She thought she knew … but only when given that power did she realize how staggeringly difficult such choices are. The Doctor gave her that power, I think, so that she could genuinely appreciate what it’s like for him. Clara thought she wanted it, perhaps (as seems to happen with all the various companions) thought she was more capable than he. Then, when backed so perilously close to the edge, Clara realized she wanted no part of it and was furious at the Doctor for putting her in that position. Hence her hissy fit. It’s not reasonable, but then her reaction wasn’t a rational one. It was entirely emotional. So I can roll with it, even if it’s over the top.

I have mixed feelings about Courtney needing to be told she’s special. True, most children couldn’t care less. But as someone who lacked confidence growing up, I was one of those kids who did need to be reassured in that way. Sometimes you just need that special person to boost you up a bit, and then you really see what you’re capable of.

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@purofilion I so agree with you. I have enjoyed the pacing of Doctor Who episodes this season. As much as I loved the Eccleston/Tennant/Smith Doctors, I felt that the action and pacing were ramped up with each subsequent season, especially during the Matt Smith era. The Doctor seemed to becoming more and more an action hero. I appreciate how Capaldi’s Doctor has been dialed back a notch, so that we get those long, lingering shots and sustained scenes.

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@purofilion You nailed it exactly with the film version of Sherlock. The editing was machine gun-style, but the scenes didn’t carry any power because, as you point out, none of the scenes were sustained, so there was no emotional heft to any of it. It was almost as if the editing were done on some sort of autopilot function: set an editing “tempo” and then use it throughout the entire film. Might look good on paper, but it was a dud for viewers like myself.

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@purofilion Ships crossing, and all that.

And I agree with you about the (film) version of Sherlock. We saw it in the cinema, and I recall our reaction being one of ennui: “Well … it wasn’t awful.” But maybe your assessment is more accurate.

I enjoy your analysis of this episode. I think I’ll watch it with a printout of your post, and maybe I’ll appreciate it even more. Thank you!

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@janetteb I now agree with you about the kids. Watching the episode, uninterrupted by commercial breaks, I was able to get into the flow of the story far better than I was first time around. As a result, the children didn’t bother me nearly as much. On first viewing, they struck me as needless distractions, but I noticed much the same thing you did on subsequent, uninterrupted viewings. Their reactions to the Tardis and other bothersome (to adults) things were delightful. I was OK with the fairy tale aspect of the story, but felt somewhat unsatisfied at the end. Somehow it didn’t come together as well as I would have liked. My first reaction was to blame the kids, but I think you are correct: a lack of internal logic or consistency hindered what could have been a great episode.

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I loved this two-parter and remember being quite taken with it on first viewing. I always thought Rose being smitten with Captain Jack was meant to say, “Look, folks, she’s not smitten with the Doctor. That’s a whole different thing.” IMO Rose and Eccleston’s Doctor had an intense friendship. But I agree that it took a very different turn with Tennant’s Doctor, one I wasn’t entirely happy with. However, it got us to one of the most riveting character write-offs in the series, so with that in mind I don’t complain as much as I would have if they’d dragged it on for multiple seasons.

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@purofilion Thanks for the welcome back! We watch on the Space channel in Canada … which we recently upgraded to HD, hooray! That’s another difference; before we were watching current episodes in low-def (on cable), plus catching up on old eps in high-def (on Netflix). High definition is certainly a vast improvement over that slightly blurry cable telecast.

Sadly Space has commercials, but they’ve gotta pay the bills. Anyway, I will continue to watch on Space because, as you note, I still do feel a certain communal excitement at watching the same program with lots of other folks, especially since we can have our watercooler discussion here soon after. But the interruptions (especially for a show that zips around as much as Doctor Who does) do take away from my ability to hold the story together in my wee little brain.

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Hubby and I are rewatching this season on Netflix. I’m finding I like the few episodes I thought I didn’t like so well … and I think a big part of that is having no commercial interruptions. Even when we record a program and can fast-forward, that’s still an interruption. Things come together for me better without it.

Anyway, in this episode, the Sheriff takes away the Doctor’s sonic screwdriver. As far as I can tell, we never see it returned, yet obviously he get s it back at some point. Can anyone recall when this happened?

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I’m not sure where this news story about John Hurt should go, so I apologize if I have posted it in the wrong place. Mods, feel free to move it to the correct one, if necessary: http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-33151261

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@ichabod Thank you for that clarification! I was starting to worry I was having a Doctor Who “blackout”! Glad to know that’s not the case. You are correct, I never got around to watching Torchwood. That’s what annoys me about crossover episodes or interlinked stories. They’re fine as long as viewers are keeping up with both series. But it’s very odd to see a TV series on Netflix, for example, and know that there are gaps in the story because of a crossover episode with another series. One series is available on Netflix, but the other isn’t, so there’s no way to “complete” the story.

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@ichabod That one’s easy, though: Clara asked to go visit an active volcano (so she could use lava to melt the Tardis keys).

True enough, it was Clara’s prompt which set that in motion. I still like the potential allegory with Vesuvius … but maybe that’s just me wanting to read more into the scene than what was there.

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@ichabod That’s an interesting way to look at it — as if we’re seeing Danny through the Doctor’s prejudiced eyes all along (even when the Doctor isn’t actually present on-scene), and only come to recognize his inner goodness and courage when it’s too late . . . I like it.  Myself, I kept waiting for a few moments between Danny and the Doctor alone, officer and soldier, finding a touch of common ground in their losses to warfare.  The closest we got was in Last Xmas: The Doctor: “Brave.”  DeadDan, without even turning to look at him: “Already dead.”  Fine.

You know, I didn’t actually have that idea formally articulated in my mind until I was typing out my post. But the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me. Viewers were grumbling all along about why we should care about Danny, and that was the Doctor’s exact attitude about him, too. Our reaction mirrored the Doctor’s own, and we didn’t find much reason to argue with him. We were baffled by Clara’s love for Danny? So was the Doctor, who couldn’t even be bothered to remember his name.

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@ichabod Thing about Pompeii — *did* he do the right thing?  Isn’t Lobus’s descendant John Frobisher, who is forced to make deals with devilish aliens and who then kills his family and himself, thereby “righting” an imbalance created by Lobus and *his* family having been rescued by the Doctor in Pompeii?  It’s a crude equivalency — Lobus must have lots of other descendants, not likely only one branch — but metaphorically the reversal later of the good deed the Doctor did in Pompeii reminds us that all deeds have their good *and their bad* consequences (so it takes tremendous and steady nerve to act heroically at all if you think about it).

OK, I don’t remember this at all. Which means nothing, except that I don’t remember it (and that’s true for a whole lotta things). Hmmm, looks like I need to revisit some past episodes. But I take your point, and this is a theme that is well-explored by Doctor Who, the whole idea of, “Change one thing (presumably for the better), and there are repercussions down the road (not always for the better).”

I don’t think the scene in Dark Water took place at the eruption near Pompeii, only because the volcano in Dark Water was in fact an illusion that the Doctor provided for Clara to work out her stratagem in, using the “dream patch” to distort her perceptions.  It wasn’t a real location at all, and vanished as soon as he took the patch off her palm.  Although he could have used memories of Pompeii’s volcano as the model for the illusion on, I suppose.  Still, that was just a dream, just a dream, just a dream . . .

Yes, you’re right. I guess that’s where I was going with this idea: Even in a dream state, what is the purpose for choosing that place? Is it some echo from the past, similar to his reason for choosing that face? I still would like to see them explore that more, but I have a feeling that aspect of this Doctor’s regeneration rediscovery is over and done with, and we’ll be moving on.

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Going back to the discussion about Danny, I too lament his rather “one-note” character development, but as @ichabod notes, that can’t be solved by bringing him back for Season 9. So I hope the writers don’t go that route. I felt that for as little development as Danny got (which resulted in my not really caring about his and Clara’s relationship, and feeling rather annoyed that I was “told” I was supposed to), he redeemed himself remarkably well in Dark Water and Death in Heaven. It was as if I’d been allowed to discover, in hindsight, all about him that mattered to himself, to Clara and to the world … and the Doctor finally got a glimpse of that, too. Maybe that was the point. Sometimes we do learn these things too late, and then the people are gone before we can appreciate and pay proper attention to them. For me, the two-part Season 8 finale gave me closure on Danny’s character. I hope the powers that be see it that way, too.

[nerys @replies]

Hello, all! Been away a while. It’s a joy to return and find some mostly scintillating discussion about this episode. Some are addressing the hope that Capaldi’s Doc (took me a while to work out who CapDoc is) might revisit some past mistakes. This wasn’t a mistake, but rather a case of the Doctor doing the right thing (thanks to Donna), but does anyone think he might revisit Pompeii to see where he got “this face”? I would enjoy a return of Tate for this sort of reunion, not with “her” Doctor but Clara’s. (It’s still tantalizing to think this might be the very volcano at which he and Clara found themselves at the outset of Dark Water.) I would love to see Donna get a more satisfying “end” than what we got with Tennant’s Doctor. A girl can dream, eh?

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@juniperfish I too enjoyed the relationship between Amy and Eleven. For me it took on a Peter Pan quality … except that unlike Peter Pan’s Wendy (who as a grownup feels she is too old for such things), the adult Amy gets to fulfill the wishes of her child self, Amelia, and go on adventures with her Doctor. Their relationship had a wonderful whimsical quality that really appealed to me.

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