Death in Heaven

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  • #35132
    Anonymous @

    One or two thoughts before I watch it again and probably change my mind about most of them.

    I liked . . .

    . . .  the fact that Danny did turn out to be a good guy after all.

    . . .  the whole thing with the Brigadier at the end. Very moving.

    . . . Danny’s line ‘We are the fallen’. Also very moving on this particular weekend.

    . . . all the performances, especially Michelle Gomez as Missy. I don’t, however want to see her again too soon, for the reason already suggested by others – too much of a good thing. I would like them to develop her character in a different way to the route taken with John Simm. He was great as Saxon,unnerving in his barminess, but when he came back he was like something out of a Stephen King novel.

    I disliked (in the sense of didn’t want to happen) . . .

    . . . the zapping of wonderful, oily Seb (do you think its short for Seborrhoea?)

    . . . Osgood – nooooo!

    I also disliked (in the sense of just didn’t like) . . .

    . . . the rather slow paced Cyberman stuff. Stomping about, getting out of the graves etc. It felt a bit like padding once or twice. But I’m not a fan of Cybermen or Daleks and am more than happy to accommodate those who are. That is the great appeal of Dr Who – if you don’t like one bit there’ll be something you do like along shortly.

    . . . to me Santa was a mis-step. I could have coped with the bleak ending. Still, one for the kids.

    And, as always, I’m left with some questions.

    Orson Pink, of course.

    Gretchen. Do you remember her asking the doctor to do something great and name it after her?

    Why did Missy suddenly turn round and arrange herself artistically between two headstones? Some sort of transporter as others have suggested?

    Was there any significance in Missy applying lipstick before killing Osgood? Or were we just meant to think she was going to escape by making Osgood hallucinate, making her death more shocking?

    Anyway, can’t wait until Christmas.

    #35133
    PhileasF @phileasf

    There was a lot to like, and a lot to think about. I’ve enjoyed reading everyone’s thoughts.

    It was almost but not quite entirely unlike my theories. (Well… someone became a Cyberman, so I wasn’t totally wrong). I don’t mind. It just meant there were more surprises than I was expecting. Which… I guess is what makes them surprises.

    But now I’m relying on the Christmas special to tell me all the episodes I didn’t like didn’t really happen.

    And if it doesn’t, I’ll spend the next hundred years expecting that every new Moffat episode is finally going to resolve that ‘fantasy’ arc from 2014  🙂

    The opening credit sequence, with Jenna’s name first, and her eyes, was a laugh. (I must admit I didn’t notice the first time I saw the episode, and probably wouldn’t have the second time either, if not for comments in this forum. So thanks.) It’s almost as if they anticipated all the complaints about the show becoming ‘Clara Who’ and decided to poke all those people with a stick. Or maybe they actually added that bit fairly recently, after reading one too many Guardian comments.

    For whole wild minutes I was flashing back to that theory from season 7, that Clara is a future Doctor. Apart from hater-baiting, I think the real ‘purpose’ of that sequence was to suggest there was going to be some massively complicated bonkers explanation, such as people like me were expecting; so it comes as an even bigger surprise that the episode was a straightforward human story rather than an exercise in being clever with time travel and technobabble.

    Poor Danny. Clara went to hell and back to rescue him from death, but then she was the one who ‘killed’ him. And after that she seemed content to let him stay dead, rather than wanting another crack at rescuing him. Now he’s had several non-boring deaths, a saving the world death and a saving one child death. So that’s OK.

    That bad news Clara was trying to tell the Doctor at the end: was she about to say Danny didn’t escape? Or does she have some other — THREE MONTHS — bad news?

    And in the end the Doctor and Clara separate as they have lived together, with lies. And by now they must know each other well enough to each know the other is lying. They’re each playing, I think, with their deep knowledge of the other, saying what they really think by saying something entirely untrue and knowing the other will know the opposite is true. The Doctor settle down on Gallifrey? Come on. And I think the Doctor knows Danny didn’t make it, and stops Clara telling him this unpleasant truth, encourages her to lie because it spares them both an uncomfortable emotional scene. They know the time has come to part, and these obvious, harmless lies make it easier. Honesty leads to crying and shouting. Lies let them part as friends.

    But their relationship is complex and subtle enough that I might be completely wrong.

    To the bullet points:

    – Missy tipped off UNIT about the Cybermen in St Paul’s. Like a lot of Missy’s actions, the motivation is obscure. I guess it was so she could meet some of the Doctor’s friends and kill them. Really, UNIT should know enough about the Master not to be tricked like they were. As soon as Missy woke up she should have been sedated again.

    – As for being the Woman in the Shop: there must have been easier ways to ensure the Doctor would find 3W, than to manipulate his life for hundreds of years!

    – Does Kate really need an explanation for how you could fit 91 Cybermen inside St Paul’s? I’ve never been there, but it looks big enough without invoking ‘bigger on the inside’.

    – This episode courted controversy a bit. Firstly, a flippant reference to suicide bombing: ‘Cybermen don’t just blow themselves up for no good reason, dear. They’re not human.’ Secondly, it appears that Missy has run an artificial afterlife for the human race for a very long time, and that this is why humans have ‘myths’ about an afterlife. (Which we now know weren’t myths.) So much for religion then — they were all the Master’s fault!

    – So… people who died a thousand years ago… Ten thousand… A hundred thousand years ago? Have they been in the Nethersphere that whole time? What have they been up to?

    – ‘Unlike the reports we have on file…’ In the mortuary scene and others, the news media seem to know about the Cybermen. We seem to have returned to the situation at the end of the Russell T Davies era, where it was no longer feasible to pretend people didn’t know all about the alien invasions that had been seen in the show. As I saw it, Moffat went to some trouble to ‘reboot the universe’ so that wouldn’t be true any more, but now we’re back there, with a ‘here and now’ in the series that is significantly different than ours.

    – Clearly the world in which the leader of every country agreed to make the Doctor the CEO of Earth in the event of an alien invasion is a very different world than ours.

    – As I recall, there was some spoilerific location footage in which the Doctor seemed to react to Clara’s death (or apparent death). It now looks like that was staged to deceive fans spying on the location shoot! The lengths program-makers have to go to to keep secrets nowadays.

    – The Doctor knew Sylvia Anderson. Fun, but I think about 99% of the audience just went ‘huh?’

    – When the Cybermen are tearing the plane apart, why doesn’t someone suggest they all escape in the TARDIS?

    – Why did Danny take Clara to the cemetery? (Bonkers theory… because he was aware of the Brigadier-Cyberman, through the Cyber-internet, and wanted to be near another reliable Cyberised dead person.)

    – And Danny stopped to pick up a warm jacket for Clara? I guess this was because Jenna needed a jacket at that location, and her comfort and health were more important than story plausibility. And fair enough.

    – There’s another dreamlike sequence when Clara wakes up in the cemetery. Things – presumably Cybermen – seem to run past the camera, but she doesn’t see them properly until later. But if they ran past her like that — only visible out of the corner of her eye — she really should have been able to get a good look at them.

    – I guess all those Cybermen who died burning the cloud had their consciousnesses uploaded into the Nethersphere, which is why Danny was able to save the child, who had presumably also been turned into a Cyberman. I guess Danny only figured out that ‘walking out of the Nethersphere’ capability of the bracelet at the last minute. He needs someone with a TARDIS and some Time Lord technology to rescue him from the Nethersphere sometime between that moment and when the Nethersphere ‘dies’. I wonder Who?

    – Given that the Doctor and Clara should be able to figure out there’s a possibility the Nethersphere is still operating, I wonder why they don’t try to break out… ooh, everyone who died during the episode. And everyone else who ever lived. Everybody lives! As soon as we’ve found somewhere for an extra hundred billion people to live.

    – If Time Lord technology is capable of creating an afterlife for the human race, and the Doctor knows this, is he now obliged to make it happen?

    – Will we ever see the Cyber-Brigadier again? I imagine he’ll be watching over the Earth, and especially his daughter and the Doctor. Next time Kate’s in trouble he’ll appear out of nowhere to save her. Look out for a broad-shouldered guy in a long coat and a very big hat who whirrs when he walks.

    – Missy has an obvious escape route: she runs the Nethersphere, which collects the consciousness of everyone who dies. No doubt she’d have a spare bracelet (or equivalent device) hidden away somewhere inside it, and be able to walk out. For her, death is pretty much indistinguishable from teleportation into her own lair.

    #35134
    Mudlark @mudlark

    Such a lot to unpack in this episode that I scarcely feel up to commenting, even after a second viewing this morning.  I was slightly worried that it might end up a bit OTT, in the manner of an R T D finale, but no, in my  judgement it wasn’t.  The balance between the personal – individuals forced by moral dilemmas to examine themselves and interacting accordingly – and the action and pyrotechnics seemed perfectly judged, and it packed a big emotional punch without lapsing into treacly sentimentality.

    Missy proved an excellent foil for the Doctor; in a sense the reverse side of the same coin although she, as she herself admitted (twice), is completely bananas rather than just a mad(wo)man in a box..  And what she wants most of all is not world domination, still less galactic domination, but for the Doctor to admit and demonstrate their kinship.

    The Doctor, the reluctant warrior, is subjected twice to the temptation of power, although the first time, when co-opted as Commander in Chief of Earth, he is given no choice in the matter.  Missy’s Faustian offer presents him with a dilemma: if he rejects it the cybermen will control the earth, and if he accepts it his integrity is irredeemably compromised. Ultimately the resolution is brought about by the fundamental flaw in her plan: deletion of emotions has not necessarily removed the ties between the people resurrected as cybermen and those whom they loved in life.  So cyber Danny can be trusted to command the self-destruction of the cyber army and the nano-pollen clouds, and Kate is saved by the intervention of the Brigadier ex machina (sorry, pedants, I  couldn’t resist).

    Osgood, on the other hand, dies, which is genuinely saddening. –  or does she?  Is it possible that those zapped by Missy were in fact uploaded to the Matrix data slice, which presumably still exists in its own separate dimension. And the minds stored in could well remain there, since downloading to the cyber-bodies would not necessarily entail their deletion from the ‘hard drive’. In fact the reverse is implied, as @hudsey pointed out, since Danny was able to contact Clara and send the Afghan boy back from there two weeks later .

    This leaves me wondering, like  @lisa , what exactly happened to the Nethersphere.  I got the impression from the way that the Doctor referred to one dimension folded inside another but not to a Tardis specifically, that that it might be the Matrix which was generating the mausoleum dimension within St Paul’s (which might also get rid of the recursion problem).  I presume that once the mausoleum space had served its purpose it could be retracted, leaving the Tardis behind in St Paul’s to be retrieved by UNIT.  The Matrix data slice, within a much reduced space,  would remain in its own separate dimension. Otherwise it might have been retrieved by UNIT for storage in the Black Museum.

     

    #35135
    matthias @matthias

    Ok, some questions about the Nethersphere and Danny:

    – Is the Nethersphere still active now? Does it still save dying people?

    This leads to Danny’s “death”. There are two options:

    1) He is in the Nethersphere after burning himself. Did the Nethersphere saved also the braclet along with him? Otherwise he could not send the boy back to Clara.
    But in this case, there is hope because the Doctor should know how to access the Time Lord data core and they could bring back Danny (and all the others).  So I do not understand why Clara just did not ask him?!

    2) He is really dead. However, how is he able to send the boy back with Missy’s braclet? The braclet can transfer people from the Nethersphere to our world. But I doubt it can transfer people from heaven back to our world.

    Has anyone ideas on that?

     

    #35136
    beancounter @beancounter

    A disappointing episode:

    Another shipper fiesta with the cybermen in the background.

    They didn’t seem threatening. Just spent a lot of time standing around.

    After Clara shut Danny’s emotions off, he still had emotions and motivation to help them? The “love conquers all” theme has been overdone.

    Even through Danny wasn’t connected to the cybermind, he knew how to fix the problem…too convenient

    The Master’s bracelet can call someone back from the afterlife? Seriously?

     

    I hope this means the end of the Clara era and a new companion next season.

    #35137

    @beancounter

    The “love conquers all” theme has been overdone.

    Love didn’t conquer all, Danny’s sense of duty did (emphasised with the Brigadier coda).

    It’s almost as if the story was show on Remembrance Weekend.

    The Master’s bracelet can call someone back from the afterlife?

    I’m guessing you missed the fact that the afterlife was a great big con.

    #35138
    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @timeloop It’s certainly not only British, so agree there.  It’s also very German as well, amongst others.  Yet it is a British show and we’ve seen an emphasis on that aspect of British nature in the past.

    I’ve seen several people here and elsewhere speak of the missing joy.  I understand that, but that is purposeful.  So often in past adventures, the damage done by them was never examined.  Not very often was the damage done to the Doctor examined and most companions, especially in the modern series, get a happy ending.  Rose got her Doctor in the end.  Martha got Mickey and continued a life of adventure.  Donna unfortunately did not get to remember what had happened, but she married a nice guy and the Doctor made sure she was taken care of.  Rory and Amy went back in time, but had a great life.  Against all odds, these guys didn’t come off too damaged.

    Yet we saw the scare tissue in Name of the Doctor.  As 11 said, “Time travel is damage.”  This series and the entire relationship with Clara was set up by Missy to enhance this IMHO.  Clara and the Doctor enhanced each other’s worst traits, having to up their games with one another.

    Moffat seems to have taken a different angle.  Most of the time we show up and want an adventure to watch.  We see it, have some fun, clap, and never think about what really happened.  I laughed, clapped, and screamed with delight as the Doctor and his companions sailed through the sky in a carriage pulled by a shark that could swim through the air.  Yet even there some serious things went down.  A man’s life was completely rewritten so he would serve the Doctor’s purpose.  He was a fun and happy manipulator, but a manipulator nonetheless.

    Moffat is exploring who the Doctor is, what he does, and why he does it.  We were warned at the beginning of the season during Into the Dalek that we were journeying into darkness.  I always thought that meant more than just for that episode.

    I can see why those who are looking for joy and fun would be disappointed with this series.  There wasn’t much of it, if any at all.  Yet we have seen Moffat deliver those joyful stories – and I think we will get some of that when Santa Claus shows up at Christmas.  He was the one who crafted the seemingly dour and scary Empty Child/Doctor Dances story where #9 got to proclaim at the end “everybody lives” and we could see way back then that that was his great desire.

    Yet the damage catches up with you.  He spent roughly 700 years on Trenzalore fighting for that town and planet.  He saved countless lives only to see them whither away as time moved on and he gradually grew older.  He saw the people he could not save over the years and the losses that he and others suffered.  I think Moffat decided that we could not easily just jump back into a lot of fun, exciting and joyful stories.

    Then to end this series we find Osgood lost just because Missy was vindictive and jealous.  Danny, who the Doctor finally came to respect, sacrificing for all humanity.  Clara dejected and damaged herself.  Missy apparently killed, taking the knowledge of Gallifrey with her.  And the Doctor alone in his TARDIS, dejected.  Time travel is damage.  These adventures cause damage.  It was so often ignored through the life of the show, glossed over, or fixed too easily (not to say it was never explored).

    Many wanted something fresh going into this series.  This seems to be largely uncharted territory.  They tried a bit of it with Colin Baker but it never came off right largely due to some terrible stories filtering through and the BBC’s waning interest in the show.  But I doubt they could have done this back in the 80s.

    I do hope to see the fun and adventure come back in, but several things need to be resolved before we get there.  I’m glad for this journey down the rabbit hole.  It hasn’t left me clapping and laughing, but I have been left thinking about the implications of the story.  I like both outcomes equally well.

    #35139
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @matthias  You ask if the Nethersphere is still active.  All the indications are that the answer is yes, as I noted in my post #35134 above.  If Missy had a duplicate bracelet or other means of escaping being pulverised by the cyber Brigadier (and like many others here, I think she did escape), she might have sneaked back there and, if so, she could in theory use it to continue uploading the minds of the dying.  But what would be the purpose?  Her plan to install  ‘saved’ minds in cyber-bodies has been foiled, and now that UNIT know what she has been up to, it is unlikely that she could get away with attempting the same thing again.

    As for your other questions: Danny is clearly dead; he said so.  On the other hand the copy of his mind remains stored in the Nethersphere, and if he did not immolate himself when ordering the self-destruct of the other cybermen he had some kind of body to return the mind to.  The body of the Afghan boy he killed would not have survived in usable form, since the death occurred years earlier, but must have been reconstructed, probably during the process of the cyber-upgrade.  Danny was presumably able to find him in his cyber form through their mutual connection in the hive mind of the cybersphere, and so rescued him.   The Nethersphere is a scam; a pseudo-heaven. The question of whether or not there is any kind of afterlife other than a technological transfer of conscious minds is very deliberately not addressed by Moffat.

    #35140
    beancounter @beancounter

    @pedant
    Both love or a sense of duty require emotion…which Danny supposedly no long had…

    Perhaps you missed the ending where Danny blew himself up with the other cybermen, this time dying for real and permanently. That spherical e machine that captured his mind the first time, was not in play at the end (because he was separated from the cybermind)

    And if he was in the nethersphere, why not take the doctor and go back and rescue him, this time without interference from the Master or the Cybermen.

     

     

    #35141
    The9thDoctor @the9thdoctor

    What an incredible episode!

    Fantastic!

    I think most of you have already exposed thoughts similar to mine, but I will note them:

    1. Missy is not dead.
    – Well, she should regenerate, no?
    – Nobody explains how she returned.

    2. Danny’s return is irrelevant.
    – Presuming Clara is pregnant, doesn’t matter if he returns or not. Their faily line is granted.

    3. Gallifrey stills lost.
    – Now the Doctor’s identity crise is gone, he can focus on the main problem: Where is Gallifrey?

    4. In the next season, we will have more about Doctor’s past.
    – Listen episode: it is shown his childhood.
    – Death in Heaven: Clara talks a lot about Doctor’s past:

    Four wives:
    – Queen Elizabeth (Dead)
    – River Song (Dead?)
    – Susan’s mother. (?)
    – Unknown. (?)

    Children:
    – Mostly unknown. One of them, Susan’s parent. (?)

    Clone children:
    – Jenny. (?)

    Grandchildren:
    – Susan. Any other? (?)

    5. Clara will return.
    – She has her own quest. Bring the undead boy to his parents.
    – Most probably she’s pregnant.

    #35142

    @the9thdoctor

    Four wives:
    – Queen Elizabeth (Dead)
    – River Song (Dead?)
    – Susan’s mother. (?)
    – Unknown. (?)

    Marilyn Monroe.

    @beancounter

    Both love or a sense of duty require emotion…which Danny supposedly no long had…

    Yes. It is almost as if the strength of human will saw him through, just as it did with Dalekised Oswin. And it is not a new Who trope:

    “Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It’s only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They’ve survived flood, famine and plague. They’ve survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They’re indomitable.

    You can look that one up.

    @herisson and others

    It is a trivial matter, once Clara and the Doctor start to speak truth to each other and can finally and properly go their separate ways on good terms, for Clara to say “Doctor, I have one last favour. I need to take a boy home”. Time machine, people.

    #35143
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @The9thDoctor- Susan’s grandmother, I dearly hope!

    but yes, there was a lot of stuff straightened out. And Susan is now, officially stated to be his granddaughter.

    I like your point three as well.  I’ve loved the last few seasons, but it would be nice to have a little less earth. Hopefully, if he finds Gallifrey, we’ll see a little more than just the timelords. I think a doctor in the Captain America film commented how the first country the Nazi’s invaded was their own- was Germany. The first people to be hurt by the arrogance of the TImeLords?

    @beancounter- no, it is possible to act out of duty without emotion. This wasn’t ‘love saves the day’ this was that, despite what the doctor said to Clara in the last episode, love is more than a mess of chemicals. It’s a promise. in contrast, Craig’s surge of chemical emotions burnt out the attempted Cyber conversion (I can’t remember the name of the episode). A parents love for a baby is very chemical, I think. Danny’s love for Clara had progressed past the stage of chemical reaction.

    #35145
    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @beancounter Danny was sustained by his promise as a soldier.  A true soldier was not going to just be subjugated by the Cyber collective.  The obey orders, but orders that pertain to the vows they’ve made as a soldier.  That’s why Danny was horrified by killing the child.  It was not purposeful, but it betrayed his promise.  That’s where the Doctor got Danny wrong.  He thought he would just submit, but he did not.  Nor did the Brigadier.  Their promises held them firm.

    #35147
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    A truly jaw-dropping level of ARSE on display on the Guardian thread if anyone’s masochistic enough to look btw….

    #35148
    Apopheniac @apopheniac

    Hello @jimthefish

    Why read The Guardian BTL?  (except for the laughs at the same names coming on every week to say they’ll never watch again)

    I have a problem with Missy’s guards in this ep.  They obviously didn’t notice her get out of her handcuffs, they didn’t care that Missy said she was about to kill Osgood, but most of all:  they were swaying slightly side-to-side in every shot.  I think they must have been drugged or something, but it wasn’t explained.

    About The Guardian, though – someone posted this in reference to them:  Dumb Guards

    #35149
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @jimthefish – I’ve been participating. It’s depressing. 🙁

    @beancounter – a sense of duty overriding Cyber Conversion is as much a part of the mythology of the show as ‘Cybermen have a severe allergy to gold’. 😉

    Most recently, the Cyberised Yvonne Hartmann in Doomsday ‘did her duty for Queen and Country’ by holding off other Cybermen while the Tennant Doctor and Rose tried to seal the breach between worlds.

    #35150
    RobertDaller @robertdaller

    Wow, just wow, y’know it’s funny I was quite disappointed by the lead up ‘Dark Water’ due to how it handled the whole ‘Don’t cremate me’ issue, I was also disappointed by Missy being the Master, as I said before in my previous review, but it had some good moments, don’t get me wrong.

    THIS however redeemed the last episode for me in a way, thank goodness they said the whole ‘dead are conscious’ thing was a lie.

    The CyberZombies were fantastic, and unlike last episode Missy really seemed like The Master to me, and hey points to Moffat for not cracking jokes about The Master being a woman, I was honestly afraid all the gender change jokes would ruin the fear of this episode, but hey! they’re were none!

    Danny’s death baffles me a bit, (mostly because of Orson) so hopefully that will get explained in Season 9. (Could be Claa’s pregnant, or maybe it was his brother/other relaive’s descendant?) and while it’s possible he’ll come back, via some timey wimey mess like Rory did 1000 times, I honestly hope he doesn’t, I think it would ruin his sacrifice for me.

    Pretty much my only complaint about this entire episode is Osgood dying, yes I understand it was for dramatic storytelling, but they could’ve easily had it be someone we didn’t recognize so that it didn’t deliver quite as harsh a blow, it just seemed like such a waste of a good character to me, a character whom I honestly thought might become a companion in the future.

    Missy’s death was great, I loved that the brigadier got to kill her, I LOVE THE BRIGADIER, he is to me, the second best thing to come out of the classic series, just behind the 4th Doctor, besides y’know character’s that have been in the modern, like The Master, Dalek’s so on, and to me he didn’t get a good send-off before, glad he finally got that salute he always wanted.

    I wonder if Missy uniting Clara with the Doctor was to get him out of his depression of losing Amy and Rory..

    Makes sense when you think about it, she wanted him there, and Clara sort of got him out of his depression, and if not for his timey wimey timeline main Clara might have called him there.

    But I feel like there’s more to it…
    Which brings me back to Clara, I don’t think she’s leaving yet at all, because we still haven’t gone in to why Missy united them, plus Santa Clause didn’t sound too happy about them leaving with a lie, if she does leave though, the full send off will probably be in the christmas special, unless she is to stay another season, maybe it’ll be because she’s pregnant or something?

    Clara has been a fantastic companion, to me the greatest, I still like the idea of her turning out to be The Doctor and Riversong’s daughter, but I guess that might be weird because of the flirting in Season 7 and the time of the Doctor.

    If she was in fact his daughter,  I could see her staying as a permanant addition via regeneration or something,
    but perhaps it’s best for each companion to leave after a while, keep up tradition and whatnot.

    Though let’s be honest, if regeneration had been made up before Susan left, me thinks Susan’s character would have never left, and instead regenerated.

    And finally the ending was PERFECT TO ME, as dark and dreary, and just downright scary this episode was, it could not have ended any better than with a moment as lighthearted and incredibly goofy as Santa entering the TARDIS.

    HO HO HO! MERRY CHRISTMAS!

    #35151
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @apopheniac – as I said on the Graun, the Master historically has hypnotic powers.

    I said it just once on the Graun. I flatly refuse to repeat it several hundred times for idiots who claim that Moffat is ruining the memory of Delgado but who don’t know one of the Delgado Master’s most basic abilities. 🙄

    P.S. Addendum: I don’t mean you. I’m talking about some folks over at the Graun.

    #35152
    The9thDoctor @the9thdoctor

    @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan

    True!
    But I don’t remember.. Does actually marries her?

    @miapatrick

    Haha, my bad! I meant her grandmother!

    @macphisto96

    Great point!

    The Brigadier and Danny were ‘soldiers’ that held their promises till the end. No matter how much there were absorbed into darkness. This was important to solve Doctor’s identity crisis: Good, bad, hero, president…

    When he finnaly realises that he is an idiot with his blue box, I think he meant that he is “only” The Doctor.

    Well, it doesn’t seem to be a genius conclusion. However, it really is.

    After receiving a new life cycle, the 12 Doctor starts confronting himself about his nature and his role in the universe as he spent his last 300 years in Trenzalore battlefields.

    When he realises that it’s all about being The Doctor, he evokes this 11th Doctor’s statement: “The name I chose was the Doctor. It’s like a promise you make”.

    Season 8 is all about 12th Doctor being the same Doctor that he used to be (the same goes to Capaldi).

    #35153

    @robertdaller

    Danny’s death baffles me a bit, (mostly because of Orson) so hopefully that will get explained in Season 9.

    I suspect it will be somewhat sooner than that.

    Pretty much my only complaint about this entire episode is Osgood dying, yes I understand it was for dramatic storytelling, but they could’ve easily had it be someone we didn’t recognize so that it didn’t deliver quite as harsh a blow

    No. Absolutely not. It had to be someone the fans had invested in, not a red shirt.

    Clara has been a fantastic companion, to me the greatest,

    She has been a revelation. Season 5 Amy will always have a special place for me, because that season spoke to me at a very personal level, but Jenna Coleman has been wonderful and has gone from strength to strength throughout her tenure.

    #35154
    Arbutus @arbutus

    Wow, I’m still in shock. I actually thought that was nearly perfect. It will require a second viewing for me to count the ways, but briefly. The Doctor is not a good or bad man, he is an idiot with a blue box! The Doctor and Clara’s journey has involved a lot of lying. The Brigadier comes back as a Cyberman to save his daughter (that was actually the moment that reduced me to tears!). In the first scene, I bounced with joy on behalf of everyone who posited Clara as the Doctor. The Doctor’s Bond moment, complete with theme music.

    However. At the risk of being an ARSE, I’m not sure I can forgive Moffat for killing Osgood. Especially after setting her up as a future companion. Wouldn’t she be fabulous?

    But actually, I’m wondering about that little weapon of Missy’s. Because she seemed remarkably okay with letting the Doctor kill her. And where is her TARDIS? We have seen a self-destruct that was really a teleport before. So will Santa bring back Missy and Osgood for Christmas? I wonder.

    #35155
    Apopheniac @apopheniac

    Hello @bluesqueakpip

    as I said on the Graun, the Master historically has hypnotic powers

    Sorry, I’ve never read all the comments there.  I only went back to look (at the last page) because of JimTheFish’s comment here.

    Apologies for making you say something again, you’re obviously frustrated about that.

    Also, I’ve never seen a Delgado Master ep.  Do you have a recommendation?

    #35156
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @apopheniac – yeah, sorry about the obvious frustration. I’m afraid you got the brunt – hence the p.s. I really didn’t mean it to sound like I was cross at you.

    I don’t mind people not knowing when they haven’t watched the BG series or Delgado; it’s when they claim in one post that we should have a Master like Delgado then, in another post, wonder why the guards weren’t doing anything ….

    Perhaps fortunately, I couldn’t find the smilie for ‘steam coming out of my ears’. 😉

    #35157
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip
    #35158
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    All I can say is wow and for some reason I don’t think the doctor and Clara are finished with each other yet. So many posts to get through, only managed to watch it after the last guests from the soirée we were having had left last night 🙂 but was too tried to check the forum 🙁 oh boy my mistake lol.

    Seriously need a second and properly a third rewatching in order to develop any cognitive thoughts, questions were answered maybe… Other questions raised most definitely.

    So we are lead to belive that Missy/Master was the woman in the shop but if this was so why didn’t clara recognise her. I am reminded of Rivers rules about the Doctor and the prime one of the doctor lies and if it holds true for him it certainly holds for true for the Master in triple if not quadruple spades.

    What was Clara trying to tell the doctor there at the end, we are assuming that it was to tell him that she would not be able to travel with him anymore, but is this more SM misdirection especially given the ending.

    And gallifrey has it really returned.. Yes we know the master lied about the coordinates but was he/she lying about the return. For that matter was s/he lying did it not look suspiciously like there was a sort of back space maybe there is a perception screen preventing anyone seeing the planet.

    Poor Oswin what a cruel thing for the fans to have do away with the shows nod to us hardcore fans.

    Right really need to go watch again to get my head around everything

    #35159
    lisa @lisa

    @apopheniac I agree that if the guards behind Missy weren’t there it might have made no difference?
    @bluesqueakpip and @ Hudsey I agree that the resurrection of the Afghan Boy had a lot of oddness and
    how will Clara handle him? Plus Cyber Danny must still exist in some form to send him back
    Also the Nethersphere in the Black Archives is a great notion !
    @robert Daller – cyberzombies ! in recent years zombies have become so popular

    @everyone I am desolate over the end of this series! I have noticed that there has been some negativism
    about it however I for 1 thought it was excellent! I think that SM conceived something
    that made the series more sophisticated – an appreciation for deeper main character development!

    #35160
    lisa @lisa

    @Devilishrobby- I lie your point about the woman in the shop and Clara not recognizing her ! also- I still
    think the numbers that Missy gave to the Doctor will have some meaning too
    Regarding Osgood- every time we see her they bring up her sister ! – was it a twin sister- a clone sister?

    #35162
    Cadellin @cadellin

    Ahoy there, new to the forums but not the fandom; I’ve watched the 8th doctor onwards-

    Anyone have any thoughts on how the boy ressurected at the end had a physical form? Sure, the Time Lord harddrive was storing people’s minds, but presumably the child’s body is long skeletonised- were we hearing Danny speak from an actual afterlife?

    Maybe Danny is training with King Kai? lol

    #35163
    lisa @lisa

    @cadellin — you and I are thinking the same way about the Afghan boy and how that was presented
    and what will Clara do about him ? Personally, it has all sorts of ‘oddness’ for me however at
    least he doesn’t become a cybezombie . The idea that the dead whether adult or child could get turned
    into that seemed a bit rough but I’ve never been a fan of Zombie horror either

    #35164
    Cadellin @cadellin

    Missy did specifically mention “every man woman and child”, so yes there must have been child cyberzombies. The fact that the Afghan boy had a living, breathing physical form does imply that there is an actual afterlife, or at the very least someone else with a more elaborate Nethersphere.

    #35165
    Apopheniac @apopheniac

    Hello @bluesqueakpip

    Thank-you for the links to Terror of the Autons comments.  Reading down on Part 1, I found this paragraph in your 1st comment:

    It’s interesting how many different ways they find to play the companion. Liz was definitely felt to have not worked – not because of the actress, but because she was also a scientist. Worse, she was a polymath scientist; the last time they’d had a scientist-companion, they’d made her expert in one area only (maths/physics) and made her someone with very little real life experience. Liz could discuss stuff with the Doctor as an equal – but the audience doesn’t need an equal. They need someone who can justify the Doctor explaining things. In English, since the audience doesn’t really speak techno-babble.

    Everyone who was especially saddened by the killing of Osgood because The Doctor had just intimated that she could be the next (co-)companion, probably doesn’t remember / know Liz and why her companion character left.

    Thinking about what you wrote, you’re probably right.  Asthma inhaler might give her a humanising touch, but Osgood was probably too good a scientist to make a good companion.

    Speaking of which, I’ve seen The Mind Robber and Zoe was – what?  an astrophysicist? – a scientist (is that who you meant in your comment?), but she was paired with Jamie so that rounded the corners a bit.

    #35166
    Anonymous @

    I DON’T WANT OSGOOD DEAD

    #35167
    PaperMoon @papermoon

    Great episode, thoroughly enjoyed it.

    I also noticed the fantasy theme continuing with Missy as Mary Poppins and Santa will be here for Xmas. I thought it was interesting that Santa tells the Doctor that he (the Doctor) can’t let it end like that (or words to that effect). I wonder what the Doctor will want for Xmas.

    CyberDan the Good – touching scene between him and Clara and their goodbyes. I’m not sure this is the last of the character, there’s still Orson’s family heirloom that Clara gave to Rupert. We may not see a resolution on this, but I hope we do. He again seems to goad the Doctor, he calls him ‘blood-soaked’ and again refers to him as an officer (twice, actually) then again says to Clara that this who the Doctor really is. But this is also the time that the Doctor realizes who he is – he has flashbacks and realizes he’s not good, not bad, not an officer, not a president – just an idiot in a box. I wondered if something clicked in the Doctor’s head at that moment, I mean other than just that realisation.

    This is the second time Clara has claimed to be the Doctor. The first time she did it I thought she was just being a bit cheeky and having some fun at his expense, and the second time she’s trying to save her own life (there’s irony in that CyberDan saves her). Maybe nothing, but if she does it again, I sense a pattern. No idea what it might mean though. On another note, does Missy know that Clara is spread across the Doctor’s timeline and has been there at various points to help him? It isn’t clear to me if this is the case or not. Did she really know what she was doing when she chose Clara?

    They killed Osgood. How dare they! Bring her back! … erm, please. I really liked her – scarf, bow tie, didn’t notice the shoes till someone mentioned it (I can’t remember who, sorry). @apopheniac – I hope your theory is true. @lisa – now you’ve got me thinking of ‘flesh’.

    Oh, and it’s the Doctor’s birthday. At least Missy remembered.

    #35168
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @apopheniac     I thought it was Seb at the door!  In any case, I’m not sure that scene can really count as a spoiler. Unless we’re believing in Santa now!

    @pedant      It is a fundamental of good storytelling that victory has a cost.    I could accept Danny as the cost, but not Osgood!  🙁  I will have to watch again, but I didn’t think the Brig shot Missy. It was the same effect as Missy’s little handheld device made, and I assumed that the Doctor did in fact shoot her. I thought the Brig was just pointing out Kate’s presence in the graveyard. But I may have missed something. I do agree about the overuse of the Master during the Fifth Doctor era. He turned out to be behind almost every threat, and it got pretty tedious. I trust we won’t go that route again.

    @bluesqueakpip    I’m sure the plan is for Gomez to return at some point. They’d be crazy to waste her.

    @jimbomcmaster   I agree, that scene in the console room was absolutely heartbreaking!

    I forgot to say in my earlier post that I am expecting to see some outrage on other forums on the subject of “love saves the day”. But we have been shown a couple of times now that strong enough human emotions can overcome cyber programming, so I was okay with it. (And plus it was an incredibly triumphant moment!)

    #35169

    @arbutus

    I didn’t think the Brig shot Missy. It was the same effect as Missy’s little handheld device made, and I assumed that the Doctor did in fact shoot her. I thought the Brig was just pointing out Kate’s presence in the graveyard. But I may have missed something.

    No, a blue bolt came from behind and to the right of the Doctor.

    #35170
    Arbutus @arbutus

    Oh, and I loved Clara’s line “I wasn’t very good at it, but I did love you.”

    @scaryb      I had the impression that Clara was about to tell that Doctor that she couldn’t travel anymore because she had adopted the boy. And that’s what she meant by “Danny and I will be just fine,” or whatever the exact words were.

    And yes, there is still the matter of Orson, isn’t there? I would be inclined to posit this theory: Orson is not a descendant of Danny, but of the boy he “killed”. Clara adopted the boy and gave him the legal name “Pink”. Hence the “one of my grandparents was a time traveller” thing. Except for the fact that Orson was played by the same actor, and the script acknowledged this by having Clara say, “they looked quite a bit alike”. So not a completely viable theory.

    Maybe we are not done with Danny after all?

    #35171
    Apopheniac @apopheniac

    Hello @arbutus (and @ everyone else who replied)

    On second thought, DiH’s mid end-credit scene with Santa was equivalent to 11 seeing Donna-in-a-wedding-dress materialise in the Tardis.  That ep’s bolt-on scene, however, was inserted as the actual end of the ep.

    Inserting this one into the end credits of DiH made it feel like a ‘coming-next trailer’ – and I’m the extreme example of spoilerphobe in that I don’t even watch the ‘coming-next’ guff.  So I still send a cross look in the general direction of Steven Moffat.  🙂

     

    #35172
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @pedant     Thanks for clarifying that. I will have to watch again to see how that affects my teleport theory. To which I am pretty attached, because I really, really want to think of a way that Osgood could have survived!

    @bluesqueakpip    Interestingly, at the end, it seemed that the Doctor was more willing to accept Danny than Danny was to accept the Doctor. I think that their whole conflict came about not just because of the Doctor’s dislike of soldiers, but also Danny’s dislike of officers. I wonder how much that affected Danny’s behaviour toward Clara, which I didn’t really see as manipulative, but certainly can be viewed that way.

    @cmbwhovian   While I suspect you’re right about Clara returning at Christmas, I did find their goodbye terrifically sad, because it was so very bleak. As for why they lied, it was clearly to set each other’s mind at rest. The Doctor tells Clara that he found Gallifrey, so she won’t worry about him, and she lets him think that Danny survived for the same reason!

    @macphisto96    Very nice comment. I especially like your point about Missy’s motivation for killing Osgood.

    @herisson     It was the bracelet that allowed someone to come back. Also, Danny sent the child to Clara, knowing that she would care for him if the parents couldn’t. But good question regarding the Nethersphere. I think it is in Missy’s TARDIS, but where is that now?

    #35173
    geoffers @geoffers

    @pedantNo, a blue bolt came from behind and to the right of the Doctor.

    you beat me to it! although, the doctor did push a button on missy’s device. it made a beeping/clicking noise, and nothing appeared to happen, then the blue bolt struck her.

    also, he was holding the device at the wrong angle? the two round, red “death things” are on one side, her “smartphone” screen on the other. he was pointing the “top” at her. so, there’s wriggle room as to whether he knew something other than disintegration was going to happen, anyway? (just another big lie to clara?!)

    🙂

    #35174
    geoffers @geoffers

    i had the thought, after losing osgood, and (seemingly) losing kate, that the doctor was truly ready to destroy missy. or at least resigned to it needing to be done, which is why he wanted to do it so that clara wouldn’t have to?

    or am i projecting my own emotions onto his character? i would have come to the same conclusion as clara! although, she doesn’t yet know about osgood and kate dying, so she’s only reacting to danny’s sacrifice, i think?

     

     

    #35175
    nerys @nerys

    @peargrins and @phmd I agree with your sentiments. I confess that one of my sources of enjoyment of the new-era doctors has been their playfulness and overall lack of dourness (though obviously there are exceptions to that). I did enjoy those more lighthearted romps through alien territory that Nos. 10 and 11 gave us (though No. 9 was a bit more unflappable, less manic than his successors). I suppose I am also tiring of everything being about the catastrophic end of Earth and/or humankind. I understand the writers’ logic, that we viewers will care more about what happens here than somewhere out there … but it was the somewhere out there that, at least for me, gave the series its magic.

    I think my difficulty with this finale is that my emotions are diverted by the mutual lying (again) at the end between Clara and the doctor.  Previous partings have been far more emotional because the companions are often at their most desperately honest with the doctor … and he with them. Are we in for a “Gift of the Magi” Christmas special, courtesy of Santa Claus? I want a satisfying conclusion to Clara’s story, because she and the doctor have basically been dancing around each other, never quite connecting, ever since her arrival. I don’t want to think it’s all for naught.

    Speaking of unsatisfying endings: I would really like to see the return of Donna, not as a full-time companion, but given a more emotionally satisfying sendoff than what she got with No. 10. I know there are supposed to be fatal problems with her remembering the doctor and their adventures together, but surely those can be “fixed” in true time lord fashion? After all, she is the reason the doctor was able to choose that face.

    I wish that Danny had been as animated in his earlier episodes as he was in these last two. He really grew on me here at the end, and Samuel Anderson really acted the lights out in this two-part finale. However, I had felt a bit “meh” about him up to this point.

    Question: Was the little boy uploaded into a Cyberman before being sent back into the living by Danny? Or did he stay in the Nethersphere? I wasn’t clear on how that process worked.

    Or was he somehow there with Danny in the same suit? Might that have been why Danny could resist Missy’s command with the bracelet, when all the other Cybermen did as they were told? Even though Danny’s emotions were deleted, the boy’s weren’t. Pure speculation, based mainly on my not being clear what happened to the boy between the Nethersphere and Clara’s hallway.

    I loved it when Missy comes floating down into the cemetery like a demented Mary Poppins. Since she disappears in a cloud of blue (rather than fiery red), I am assuming that she teleported just before they were able to kill her, and we will see her again. I hope so, anyway. Even though I’m a bit tired of the recurring three nemeses (Daleks, Cybermen and the Master/Mistress), I enjoyed her performance.

    I’m not sure it was ever overtly explained, but I agree with others who think 3W was just a con. After all, actual bodies were needed into which to upload the Cybermen. With cremation, the bodies don’t exist. So I think that whole “don’t cremate me” was cooked up in order to convince people to preserve their bodies.

    UNIT was remarkably ineffectual; that must have been the world’s worst two guards chosen to protect everyone from Missy. Poor Osgood … though her death didn’t affect me as much as I think was intended. But maybe she was just supposed to show the shocking realization that yes, those the doctor cares about can be killed off. And the doctor, himself, was remarkably ineffectual. I admit that my most thrilling moments with the doctor are his “save the world” (whatever world that may be) moments, when he uses his capacity for rewriting time to save someone … even though we believe all is lost. I know it’s fantasy or wish fulfillment, but I love those moments. We saw precious few of them this season.

     

    #35176
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @phileasf You made me laugh out loud with

    It was almost but not quite entirely unlike my theories

    Welcome to my world!! But it’s also the joy of bonkers theorising. we don’t actually want to be right! 😉

    @bluesqueakpip Absolutely no need to apologise! I’ve thoroughly enjoyed debating Danny’s character with you. And he’s not easy. I mentioned his emotions were “bolted down”, but all his behaviour is. He tries very hard not to allow himself to feel, because when he does it’s all guilt and remorse. When we meet him he’s already a “dead man” going through the motions of living. In lots of ways he’s a very bad choice for a partner by Clara. She needs someone stronger who will force her to face up to responsibilities. I liked that – like the PTSD former officer in Mummy...  – Danny finds redemption and reconciliation with his past actions by choosing to release the Afghan boy instead of himself. He’s dead but he’s at peace with himself before he dies.

    Given his track record in past incarnations I wouldn’t trust Missy 1mm! All the stuff about “I just want my friend back” is designed to hit the Doctor where he’s weakest. The same when she gives him the coordinates for Gallifrey – she knows exactly how to get to him. And he knows it. By the end of the episode we see the Doctor Defeated. He’s been played by her for a very long time and he’s still puzzling out just how much. But he knows that the fact that she’s here strongly suggests that he can find Gallifrey again. And he understands that it’s not good to be an extreme, either god or the devil. You can’t save everyone (as he’s been learning throughout this series). It’s much more important to be yourself.

    Clara on the other hand, hasn’t yet come to this understanding. She still wants to be the one in control. Deep down she wants to be the Doctor. And even the Doctor knows he can’t live up to his own myth. In many ways she’s more like Missy! The irony when she told cyberDanny that the Doctor is the one person she’d never lie to  is that she’s still lying.  Is she pregnant? At Christmas…? 🙂 It’s a tease, but I suspect not, especially since we’ve been shown with River what happens to babies who timetravel. I think Orson will come into it somewhere; he may not be a descendant though, maybe a clone or an alternate timeline. Or… Danny’s dead so they can’t resurrect him to his own time but maybe they (Santa) could park him upstream somewhere (as in Hide) so that he is Orson.

    I haven’t found myself shouting at TV characters’ stupid behaviour for a long time but I did it repeatedly last night. I think this is a good thing! 🙂

    One thing I have said throughout this series, and I still stand by, is that it’s a 13 episode series – it will carry on into the Christmas episode so we finally get Clara’s resolution. It would be neat if she came and went in a Christmas special, but I’d be happy to see her stay on.

     

    #35177
    Mudlark @mudlark

    When I watched yesterday evening I was completely engrossed in the story, disbelief not so much suspended as tied up and gagged in another room, so the annoying little inner critic who sometimes interrupts to point out the implausible or illogical was silent (the anaesthetic effect of a generous infusion of Cotes-du-Rhone probably helped also to keep it quiet)*.  Today I have been mulling over the implications of Missy’s claim confirming that she was the WitS.  If she was telling the truth, as she appeared to be, it creates what appears to be a temporal paradox.

    Her previous incarnation was last seen firing energy bolts at Rassilon and disappearing with him as Gallifrey was returned to beyond the time lock.  Missy implies that she subsequently escaped again from the time war during the events portrayed in The Day of the Doctor – events in which Clara played a crucial part, having already met the Doctor as a result of the escaped Missy’s intervention and been travelling with him for some time.  In other words, when Missy set up Clara’s first meeting with the Doctor, she was only able to do so because Clara, as the Doctor’s companion had already helped to set up the conditions which enabled her escape in order to set up the meeting.  That looks to me like an impossible recursive loop with no alternative time line option.

    I won’t hammer on about the question of how many of the dead and buried would be available for upgrading to cybermen -not just for the reasons I referred to in my comments on Dark Water, but because even skeletal remains do not survive indefinitely in most soil conditions – but if Missy had, as the Doctor surmised, been busily uploading the minds of the dying since human beings first conceived the idea of an afterlife, there would be an awful lot of minds with no body to download to!

    One further thought, picking up on my earlier comment on the question of whether or not the Nethersphere survived, and what might be the implications if it did; Danny, in his last communication with Clara, said that ‘this place is dying’, but that might just mean that it was powering down.  The data stored on a hard drive is not lost or deleted when you put the computer into sleep mode, or when you switch it off.

    And finally, an easter egg which I only spotted on third viewing (well, it was raining and I had nothing urgent to be getting on with) Clara’s birthday was stated as 23rd November, 1986 (i.e. 23 years to the day since the first broadcast).  Maybe this has been mentioned before, but if so it escaped my notice.

     

    * Not @scaryb ‘s Tardis Red, alas, but it occurred to me that one of the benefits of time travel is that you have ready access to all the very best vintages.

     

    #35178
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @arbutus

    Danny and I will be just fine

    That’s as big a lie as the one the Doctor tells her about having found Gallifrey and is planning to go home and settle down.

    #35179
    ScaryB @scaryb

    A few people have asked why Clara didn’t recognise Missy as the WitS.  Unlike my now-trashed theory of Missy bugging Clara’s phone/laptop when she went into the shop, it’s clear that Clara phoned a helpline. Missy changes her accent to WitS’s voice to demonstrate, as she’s telling them. (Now there’s a masterclass for Clara in control freakery!)

    @mudlark It doesn’t matter when Missy escaped from Gallifrey – it’s stated that she has a TARDIS, she can timetravel.  But you’re right it’s at least a Moffat loop if not an outright paradox! Just how long has she been messing in Clara’s life? Did she blow the leaf that brought her mum and dad together? Was she responsible for the car which caused Danny’s death? (We know she was monitoring). And if rule no 1 is that the Doctor lies, it goes without saying that the Master lies to get what he/she wants. Always has. And what he/she wants is to be in control.

    btw loved your line “disbelief not so much suspended as tied up and gagged in another room” Best place for it!!

    #35180
    DogBoyTheCat @dogboythecat

    This is my first post here, so I’ll just stick to my point.

    Why, oh why, did they have to kill off Osgood?

    I was betting that she would be the perfect companion for The Doctor.

     

    #35181
    nerys @nerys

    Oops, I should read posts before posting, myself. I was out of the loop on the Master’s hypnotic abilities, so that answers that about the guards.

    Ah, yes, Danny’s sense of duty (and also the brigadier’s). That makes sense to me for why they were able to resist Missy’s commands and do the right thing.

    I also agree with those who examine the show’s past history with handling the damage inflicted by time travel, and find it wanting. It’s true that we have had too-easy answers for that, and this season gives us a more plausible rendering.

    #35182
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @belshazzar       Wonderful first post, welcome! I agree with lots of what you say, and the more time I have for things to percolate (I only saw the episode a few hours ago), the more I suspect that some aspects at least of the ending will be revisited in a few weeks’ time. If done well, it could result in a very uplifting Christmas episode!

    @stormintheheartofthesun    Thanks, I’d forgotten about the potential pregnancy thread. That could of course be the explanation for Orson.

    @taffy   the Doctor brags to Missy about how her is ruler of the world.  Something Missy /Master had never been able to do.   Yes! I loved this too.

    @janetteb    Maybe it will be the toy soldier that will lead the Doctor back to Gallifrey or enable Danny to be downloaded from the Matrix and thus saved.   I like both of these ideas!

    I wonder if the ones who sacrificed themselves for the Doctor went to a different place than the others? They did not end up in the office with Seb. Maybe they are hidden in a different part of Missy’s TARDIS, and we will see them at Christmas?

    And on a random note, I’m not sure I’ve ever cried so much in a DW!

    #35183
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @mudlark

    Clara’s birthday was stated as 23rd November, 1986

    (meta theory)

    @bluesqueakpip has a whole, (pure genius) detailed theory, from series 7, about how Clara is a metaphor for the show itself! (including the gap years from her journal which coincide with periods when the show itself was cancelled). Can’t remember if it’s on here or was just on the Guardian blog.  Hopefully on here and she can link to it 😉

    #35184
    VoidStuff @voidstuff

    I’m not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but is there any evidence that the Osgood killed was the real Osgood and not the Zygon duplicate?

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