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5 April 2014 at 17:35 #26762
OK – I’ve never quite understood the fundamental desire of Russell to make his Doctor Who so deliberately of it’s time (with pop culture references, etc.) and I think some of his attempts to inject satire in the series didn’t always work, but I really do like the TV satires in Bad Wolf.
Mainly, I think is it’s because I really didn’t like that unpleasant strand in series that were around in those far flung times of just under a decade ago. In these days where
- Anne Robinson’s snidey put downs have been replaced by the more laid back Alexander Armstrong in Pointless,
- where Trinny and Susannah have taken their “look at what the pleb is wearing” shtick to commercial obscurity, and
- Big Brother is nowhere near the ratings beast it was when it encouraged you an audience to laugh at the educationally sub-normal,
you can actually forget these were officially “Big Things”. Pastiches of those shows were begging to be made.
It’s ironic actually that the recent discussion of a Perwee story to watch included Carnival of Monsters, which had a similar take on audience motivations for passively watching TV. That also looks very much of it’s time, but I’m not sure that was so deliberate.
Early on and it seems to be business of usual. Eccleston gets to flirt again! With Lynda (with a “y”). The reveal of horror on his face as he realises that this state of affairs may have something to do with his earlier visit is good. The Long Game saw a vision of the future that was different to that he expected, and now it’s got a lot worse.
“I don’t know. This whole Bad Wolf thing’s tied up with me. Someone’s manipulating my entire life. “
It’s FENRIC! Obviously. 😀
Love the accessory joke as Jack pulls a gun from … well, we can only guess.
Nice to see Patterson Joseph in cutting form as Roderick in the Anne-Droid show. Playing a corker as the absolute B*st*rd. For some reason I can’t help pointing out that he, along with three other people who have Doctor Who credits, appeared in sketches lampooning Quiz shows elsewhere. Like this:
The dispatch of Rose is abrupt, and quite shocking, but I wonder if many members of the audience automatically said “well- that didn’t happen, did it” as soon as it was shown? Quite a lot, I’d suspect. The aftermath with Jack angry and The Doctor looking shell shocked during the inevitable arrest is good stuff though.
The idea of the Programmer being implanted into her systems as a child does echo the little girl in Remembrance of the Daleks as a control system. The sudden revelation that Rose isn’t dead, the transmit of the Programmer for her confrontation with her masters, and we all start to guess. The dropping of the cloak – Shit it’s the Daleks. Great Reveal. At least it would have been if the Sun hadn’t leaked a photo of “Half a Million Daleks!!!” about two weeks before broadcast. I take it they didn’t like the satire of The Long Game.
No! ‘Cause this is what I’m gonna do. I’m gonna rescue her. I’m gonna save Rose Tyler from the middle of the Dalek fleet, and then I’m gonna save the Earth. And then—just to finish off—I’m gonna wipe every last stinking Dalek out of the sky!
Yay! Punch air.
5 April 2014 at 14:35 #26742Yes – it’s been pretty unpleasant here in Yorkshire as well (although we had a cloudburst overnight Thursday – probably initiated by the dust, which helped ease it yesterday). I’m still not over that chest infection, so I don’t think that helped. Glad to hear it’s easing for you as well.
It’s been a bit of a source of hilarity over air monitoring. These days, the Environmental Action Level for most contaminants are firmly in the parts per billion range, so we have to pump an awful lot of air to get meaningful measurable quantities of anything. Although the UK faces European prosecution for not meeting air quality levels, it’s largely because the acceptable limits have been reduced substantially since “ye olden days” when you could get a good particulate sample in the West Midlands by taking your washing off the line.
I tell younger consultants my fond memories of navigating by sense of smell (Overpowering odour of TCP? – M1 between junction 28/29. Hot Weetabix mixed with eggy hydrogen sulphide? – Hello Wrexham!) but they don’t remember industrial activity on that scale. 😀
5 April 2014 at 12:00 #26738@mobius64 @wolfweed @bluesqueakpip @blueboxrising88
Years ago I can remember someone on another forum writing a really good interpretation of the exchange in the TARDIS between the Doctors in the Three Doctors imagining Geoffrey Bayldon as 1, Valentine Dyall as 2, and Ron Moody as 3 (all considered for the roles). A really different dynamic as she’d pitched the dialogue and personalities towards major parts they’d played in other productions.
Two was far more domineering/commanding (it’s quite hard seeing Dyall as anything like 2, but easy to see him as a better 6.) Moody seemed written as he played the Wizard Rothgo in “Into the Labyrinth”, so more puckish and oblique – like a cross between 2 and 7.
So I’d guess if you’re trying to imagine other actors in the role, it’s best to have seen them to try to capture the voice, etc, and essentially what they would have brought to the role.
5 April 2014 at 11:41 #26737The Doctor kept telling her/us how wonderful she was but her actions towards Mickey did not bear that out.
Yes – it did seem a little forced. From memory (looking forward) when we went into Series 2 – Specials a particular writing tick in virtually every RTD episode was to have someone congratulate 10 on being brilliant, or just comment on how brilliant he was to other people. No wonder 11 reckoned he had vanity issues with all that praise going on. 😉
I’m looking forward to making sure that’s not just my memory playing tricks on me, and it was “a thing”.
Rose/Jack/Mickey/Eccleston Doctor feel like they’re acting.
Yeah, I think it all does come across as false, especially the “hey – aren’t we the cool TEAM TARDIS!” stuff designed to highlight Micky the outsider. You may be right, and this was a pretty late written episode.
I think, from memory, it was around this time that they decided that they’d need the Doctor-lite episode in the future (actually, I’m not sure if Writers Tale identified this or the last episode we watched The Long Game as being the time they thought “we’ve got to look at this”).
Thanks for the confirmation of the DEM – I don’t see it that much as a problem, myself, and I’m pretty poor at spotting them. It would be interesting to see if the criticism you occasionally see that he relies on them is in any way justified.
5 April 2014 at 11:36 #26736Everyone breathing a little easier now atmospheric dust seems to be diminishing?
The ironic thing is that my organisation has had to cancel programmed air monitoring works this week (to determine inhalable and. respirable particulates from industrial processes) because this dust had the potential to swamp the filters we use and make the results meaningless.
How we laughed. Well, it was more of a wheeze, actually.
2 April 2014 at 21:28 #26715Many thanks for the confirmation!
Poor old ‘Carnival of Monsters’!
I know – I’m not feeling the love!
I actually quite like the B-plot with the isolationist race of cultural knee-jerkers. They remind me of UKIP…and The Timelord (no wonder Pertwee has a moment). And the bit of satire about passively watching monstrosities on TV…..whoops.
..and who can’t love Vorg and Shirna, looking like they just stepped out of an early 1970s special episode of Top of the Pops on the subject of Glam Rock?
They don’t make costumes like this anymore. Many people are happy about that.
2 April 2014 at 16:12 #26713I always try to congratulate a leftfield choice! If you enter Carnival of Monsters in the Search bar at the top of the page you’ll see the brevity of mentions that story has ever had in the forums. 🙂
Whenever I see it, I always seem to linger on the fact that Ian Marter (aka Harry Sullivan) is a “Boys own adventure” Sailor (tm Sarah Jane Smith) whichever time period he’s in. A proto Clara?
As @wolfweed has not come down firmly on one story, it’s a suggestion he’s floating, and I await his commitment with anticipation. No rush – we have the first three weeks of the Mind Robber to get through first.
This, as they say, is the People’s choice. I think I’m running 50:50 on my choice winning out on past form, but it all depends on votes – votes – votes.
(I would be obliged if people wouldn’t nominate The Mutants for Pertwee though – that one I have trouble with).
2 April 2014 at 14:42 #26711Hi – all the DVDs are digitally remastered to improve quality, but quite a few of the “SE” (Special Edition) and “Revisited” Box sets replace (or offer alternatives) to the original effects themselves. I think that was the question @janetteb was posing. I just had a look and found the video I mentioned on Kinda. It shows, side-by-side the original snake (blow up prop) against the “SE” version:
2 April 2014 at 14:12 #26709Just going back to my memory of Kinda though, and more specifically my Brother – has anyone had the experience of trying to watch the programme at any time with someone who is definitely “anti” it? And trying to keep your enthusiasm alive? I’m just interested to see if there is room for a discussion on a blog or the memories strand.
2 April 2014 at 14:09 #26708Wow – Carnival of Monsters! That’s a left-field suggestion, and I think was the first Pertwee story I can remember seeing in full because of the repeat in my early teenage years.
I think I discounted Trial in conversation with @monochromedimension (hope she’s keeping well) as it really doesn’t make sense unless you watch it all, and even that’s a matter of opinion. 😉 I’d go with any single story from Key to Time, but not the lot. I may laugh a lot at Power of Kroll though.
Can I just say though that I hope when we get to Colin that the people who pointed out to us we hadn’t covered him, and got me to include him this time will jump in with both feet to give us their opinion. I don’t like the thought of people sniggering in cyberspace thinking “ha – you’re watching it so I don’t have to”. 😀
2 April 2014 at 13:09 #26702@bluesqueakpip @blenkinsopthebrave @janetteb @nick
Thanks – keep the suggestions coming. I’m actually in the mood for any Pertwee story since I haven’t watched any since Terror of the Autons last year, and before that it was March 2013 I had a bit of a review.
While I really like Inferno myself, I have one slight concern about it, which may make you laugh @blenkinsopthebrave. At seven weeks, it’s in danger of pushing the eventual choice for a McCoy story into the new series with Peter Capaldi! (that’s based on something like a 4-4-2 episode formation for Baker I, Davison and Baker II). Yes – time really will fly with a Doctor Who retrospective. 🙂
It’s actually a good point on the update to Day of the Daleks @janetteb and it’s an interesting approach. We touched very lightly on updates in our BG review last year (I think it may have been an episode of Talons when we talked about the rat), and I mentioned the update of Kinda (there is a video of the upgrade to that, I think).
I own a fair few where visual effects have been remixed – Earthshock, Arc in Space, Five Doctors, Kinda, etc. and I think they have largely been well done. Kinda, I won’t watch the original ending now. The CGI snake isn’t fantastic, but the original was REALLY lamentable, and I can remember cringing at the end of the story as an 11 year old with my older brother (not a Who fan) laughing his head off at how abysmal it looked. I’ve always thought it a shame, as the story itself is really good. It was also one of the choices for a later Davison story.
What I like about the BBC releases in general is that often they allow you to see the production with or without updates (as with Arc in Space) and nothing changes the net meaning or result of the story. It’s not a case of “Greedo shot first!” tinkering that George Lucas did with Star Wars (to much outrage).
1 April 2014 at 13:13 #26688@jimthefish – All comers for nominations really, even if you’re not sure you’ll be commentating. I know Pertwee’s not your favourite, but you may get to a point in a month when you feel like jumping in, so it may as well be something you fancy watching.
1 April 2014 at 12:52 #26687I just thought I’d write something about Dennis Spooner, the writer of this, because he’s quite an important player of this time who never seems to get name-checked that often. Definitely a bit of an unsung hero in evolving the show.
We’ve talked about the transition of the Doctor towards his status of hero, his humanisation by his companions, and it’s worth noting that Spooner was the Script Editor tasked to make this transition. He started with The Rescue and the introduction of Vicki, and finished Script editing just before this with The Chase, which saw the exit of Ian and Barbara. A bit of a critical time really. He started to introduce a lot more humour within the Doctor, letting Hartnell loose on some great dialogue in his own The Romans and Hartnell obviously enjoyed this aspect a lot, as he does in The Time Meddler. The faux historical (history with aliens) was really his idea, and he suggested the interlude on the Marie Celeste in The Chase to Terry Nation, and then wrote this as the first full adventure along those lines.
He must have been good at juggling because he seemed to give everyone the support they needed. He wrote the back end (last six episodes) of the Dalek Masterplan (bringing back The Meddler and killing companions) and when the second Doctor was introduced he was bought in as an uncredited co-writer for Episode 1 of Power of the Daleks to “sort out” the characterisation of the Second Doctor. That’s not bad at all. He’s also got an astounding resume on IMDB of writing genre shows in the sixties that takes in most of what was important at the time. Absolutely astonishing.
1 April 2014 at 12:47 #26685I concur with the general feeling about our Viking raiders. “They aren’t the sharpest sword in the sheaths” is an excellent summary. You get the feeling that the Viking leader in ep 2 bid them a fond farewell, thought “that’s the massive distraction sorted out” and then sailed away to attack on another front.
That aspect of the plot does play out a little like a farce – Carry on Pillaging, in honour of the future direction of Peter Butterworths fame, but there is a huge amount to enjoy in this final episode. The interplay between the Meddler and the Doctor continues to be a minor joy. The Meddlers insistence that he’s “improving” things, and his previous actions and application of medicines way beyond their time point to someone with mixed motivations to say the least. There was always a saying about The Master that he should share similarities with the Doctor, but be a counterpoint to his personality in many ways. I’ve always thought the Monk was an interesting addition to that idea, because he’s not necessarily “Bad/Evil”. @fatmaninabox mentioned he returned in the Big Finish Eighth Doctor series, and there he’s portrayed as something of a self deluding fantasist. He does what he wants for his own purposes (usually greed) but can spin falsehoods that he himself seems to believe.
Worth noting how the Doctor complained bitterly about his exile to Earth in one time period by the Time Lords in the future. Here he does exactly the same thing with a song in his heart. It would have been fun to have the Meddler turn up to bark “hahahahah! Let’s see how you like it” to the Third Doctor. 😀
1 April 2014 at 12:44 #26684I don’t know what it is about the clocks changing, but last year at this time I had difficulty with internet speeds, and it’s happened again. Started after Midnight Saturday, and only recovered yesterday evening. Still a bit slow, but at least all components like CSS seem to work consistently.
Anyway, after The Time Meddler, we are moving onto The Mind Robber for Troughton, but can I ask you for your thoughts on a Third Doctor Adventure? Nominations were all over for him, with Inferno, Day of the Doctor, The Daemons, Curse of Peladon and I’m sure a couple more mentioned. No real drive towards any one of them though. What do you think would do Pertwee justice?
Prices for The Mind Robber DVD are all around 6.50 at the moment (6.49 at the BBC shop).
29 March 2014 at 20:15 #26651I think after Father’s Day and the SM two parter Empty Child/Doctor Dances (all of which I really rate), I actually winced a bit when I watched this originally. Looking at it in retrospective, I’m not as harsh as I was, but I’m still glad to see the back of it.
On the plus side, it’s not as frenetic with the fart gags as the first Slitheen two parter, and I quite like Annette Badlands verbal fencing with Chris Eccleston over dinner. Hats of for the subdued performance from her on the kludgie as she draws back from killing, and for the Doctors dismissal of her attempts to use this little factoid against him.
I’m sure there is probably a point in emphasising a certain smugness and comfort with the lifestyle within the new Team TARDIS, which makes you sympathise slightly with the outsider Mickey. The only thing I can only say is that if this was what the dynamic between Jack, Rose and The Doctor that would have been in place going forward, then I’m glad that Captain Jack was only an occasional guest star. Perhaps, like River, he works best in small doses?
Some of the character stuff works, but I think others come across as a little forced. The points about the Doctors morality in particular are a little off-kilter. Having your morality questioned by someone who is wearing a skin-suit taken from the original host, and willing to destroy a planet for a quick buck was never going to shake the Doctor too much, was it?
As I’ve already admitted to being a bit crap at spotting a deux ex machina, I’ll ask resident expert @bluesqueakpip to confirm if the sudden ability of the TARDIS to regress someone physically in years is one. It seemed a little convenient, even though I know it foreshadows (to a certain extent) what’s to come.
In the grand scheme of things, I think the first Slitheen episodes are worse, but this one is really difficult to embrace with confidence.
Are we doing the last two episodes on one topic, or splitting them up?
29 March 2014 at 16:39 #26633Glad you enjoyed it as well, and its good news it seems to have a second series. I liked Sardines as well – a huge irony that one of the stories with the largest cast saw them crammed in a wardrobe!
I thought the last one, The Harrowing, was a bit broad for a piss-take of the Hammer style of Horror (it reminded me of the Steve Coogan series Doctor Terrible’s House of Horrible), but I laughed quite a bit having said that. I really liked the earthy “oh, F**K OFF” being delivered after some fruity piece of portentous dialogue by Shearsmiths character. Nice to see Helen McCrory vamping it up again after Vampires in Venice as well.
28 March 2014 at 17:27 #26621The show is starting with the blankest slate that it has done for years (which suggests to me that Moffatt can put a nice big ‘job done’ tick over the 50th anniversary)
I agree. A big thing for many older fans (I think) is that the Doctor is somewhat shorn of the angst of the Time War. After the confusion, it seemed there was a collective sigh of relief about that.
The Doctor is in the TARDIS. The Dalek Empire is out there, there are worlds to explore – sights to see, wrongs to right and the potential for the Doctor to “go home” is distant on the horizon. It seems right somehow. A new era to start accruing new angst, new end-points and new “might-have-beens”.
28 March 2014 at 11:09 #26614Happy Birthday. Another member of the 44 club! We should have T-shirts made 😀
Also the Birthday of Gareth David-Lloyd (Ianto Jones) if you want to claim that one. However, if you’re dwelling on your increasing sense of mortality, Patrick Troughton died on your Birthday in ’87. Feel the happy.
Hope you got plenty of beer tokens in your presents. I spent most of my Birthday out of my mind, shouting at non-existent Badgers in the Garden. Everyone needs a hobby.
28 March 2014 at 10:58 #26613It’s definitely a case of “spin the wheel” on this one at the moment. Just picking up on a few points raised though.
Memory (or lack thereof) – I’m not sure about this one. It’s always seems to have been a thing that the Doctor is a bit out of sorts when he regenerates, and more than a few have had memory issues. I don’t think that it’ll be something they dwell on though. Christmas Invasion and The Eleventh Hour tried to wrap up the regeneration in an episode, and finally give the viewer a taste of just who the Doctor is now. That’s probably seen as important because the viewing figures usually signpost an increase in viewership as people tune in to see what the new guy is like. It’s a bit of a showcase.
I’ve always felt that the first story has gained some importance when you remember the 80s regeneration stories. I find Castrovalva, Time and the Rani and Twin Dilemma various shades of bad going from Castrovalva (weak) to Twin Dilemma (desperately lamentable with no redeeming features whatsoever). I also think that with some viewers the vision they presented of the Doctor stuck. Davison spent much of his with amnesia, and was forever seen as weak even though he had some real tough guy moments later. Baker was the Bully, and McCoy the clown. So I think if amnesia is in play it’ll soon be gone, to give us a big moment with the Doctor.
Gallifrey – Will remain, I hope, firmly in the background. The Doctor has a goal, but let him take the scenic route. A 50 yr one. I wouldn’t be averse to seeing the introduction of elements of the quest though – false leads, artefacts and perhaps the odd escapee from the Phantom Zone.
I do think you could potentially put money (a small prudent amount) on SM indulging in some timey-wimey. We’ve seen a pair of furious looking eyes going to Gallifrey in Day of the Doctor, and I wonder if there is a story there. If his purpose was slightly different to that of the others. Neutralising a third party, perhaps? This could explain why that it was suggested Gallifrey would be frozen in Day, against the observable effect of them not being in Time.
Clara – I think Clara’s story has an awful lot of play. I went through some of my old theories and stuff (how I laughed) on the boards, and there are certain things about her (hints at telepathy, empathy, etc.) that scream the paranormal range of human abilities. I think I’m going to rewatch 7B in April to try to refresh my memory. I can’t help but think that the whirlwind of exposition in Time of the Doctor may have helped mask something that will carry on.
28 March 2014 at 10:50 #26612Bugger – if I’d been around earlier in the week, I could have pointed out that the episode of Cobwebs was repeated on Monday night (midnight).
I’m sure you know it’s available on i-player, but if anyone wants to hear the first episode of the Fifth Doctor BF story Cobwebs, it’s on i-player for a couple more days.
BTW – Adric returns?! I think I’ll put them firmly on the miss-list. I don’t want anything to compromise my fond memories of the end of Earthshock.
23 March 2014 at 14:21 #26569It’s interesting that RTD’s original idea for Adam was that he’d have a decent motive for stealing this information. But they were right to drop it; it wouldn’t have worked. This early on, everyone would simply have expected the Doctor to cure Adam’s Dad.
I think you’ve just articulated why I think it would be problematic. If he’d declined to do something about it, it would be hugely unsympathetic even with a complete knob like Adam. Because we’re skipping Fathers Day (which followed this), I also think it was a bit too near Roses position in that episode – a desire to use the potential for time travel to save a father. It would have seemed a bit curious to compare the treatment of the two – while he berated Rose in that episode for her actions, there is forgiveness and a certain amount of understanding at the end.
Getting back to the plot, why the hell would a space station need to channel heat downwards? Wouldn’t a loop cooling system be better?
I think it’s said that Max lives at the Penhouse (notional top) of the station, so “downwards” is the way to go. Effectively, orbital constructs are pretty well insulated because they have to deal with temperature extremes (hulls vary between 150 – minus 150oC depending on whether you’re in the sun or shadow of the Earth). So I’d imagine that, in the sun, they channel heat to the lower decks , and the when in shade try to dissipate it through the hull. A more difficult question is just how much it eats to have a metabolism like that though – an astronomical amount of calories. 🙂
Heh – I can’t help thinking the Jagrafess is a good deal more cuddlier than Murdoch. And Desmond. And Black… God, the list does go on, doesn’t it?
The News is a curious phenomenon – most people who read it seem to suggest they suspect an awful lot of it is bollocks, and it’s written with a distinct bias. It doesn’t stop academic studies demonstrating that certain things from their paper of choice, which are bollocks, seem to stop in the memory over time, and settle in the consciousness as “things we know”. Even unmitigated bollocks seems to take root over time in a surly “well, there’s no smoke without fire” way. I’ve always thought it useful to have an occasional reminder for the grown-ups, as well as introducing the fact to Children at an early age.
22 March 2014 at 22:27 #26563Ahh.. Your knowledge of Torchwood does you proud. The mental image that came to mind that provoked the chuckle was along these lines:
“For Gods sake – someone get me an epidural”
22 March 2014 at 21:28 #26558Actually, it’s interesting watching this episode after just watching the Time Meddler, and remembering the resistance some have to the transient nature of the Universe the Doctor inhabits (largely of the opinion that time couldn’t/shouldn’t be re-written).
Here, the Doctor materialises in the future, but it’s clearly not the future he knows and was expecting. “It’s the wrong shape”. The technology, the attitude of the humans to other species, it’s all wrong. I actually quite like this episode (which I’m led to believe from a long time on the internet may put me in a minority), but I think the satire in it works for me because its not so forced, and it benefits from a great turn from Simon Pegg, who is particularly odious as the Editor. He’s odd and disquieting, and the performance reminds me of some of the sketches of a weird show he was in called Big Train.
I saw hours of testimony in the Leveson enquiry where they pontificated on the power of the media, but I don’t think anyone approached the simplicity of this line, and its simple truth:
Create a climate of fear and it’s easy to keep the borders closed. It’s just a matter of emphasis. The right word in the right broadcast repeated often enough can destabilize an economy, invent an enemy, change a vote.
It’s that repetition and setting the tone of the topical agenda that can have an accrued effect. The Proprietor (The Jagrafess) expelling his hot air while the Editor tailors the news towards “informing” the public with that message.
Nice to see Tamsin Greig in Doctor Who. It’s just a small part, so here’s hoping she gets another turn in the future. With Capaldi as the Doctor, perhaps they could have a Neverwhere reunion? (OK – their characters never met in that, but what the hell).
I think the idea of a companion who couldn’t cut the mustard was an interesting one to explore, but I’m not convinced by how it was executed. It seems really rushed considering we only met Adam in the previous episode, Dalek. There really isn’t enough time to know or care about him, so it actually doesn’t have much impact when the Doctor abandons him to who knows what fate. I think I read somewhere that the original intention was to have Adam stealing the knowledge because his father was terminally ill and he hoped to find a cure. I’m not sure how that would have played out on screen. It would be interesting to look again at the idea of a Companion who travelled with the Doctor for their own ends, but hiding it from him for a longer period.
I’d completely forgot that the Face of Boe had been reported as being pregnant in this one, so that raised a chuckle bearing in mind the “revelation” at the end of Series 3.
22 March 2014 at 20:13 #26556As we discussed on the News thread (ta, @blenkinsopthebrave and @scaryb), we have opened a new thread for speculation on Series 8. So if you’ve got any theories on what may form the shape of the next phase in the life of the Doctor, a wishlist of thingz you’d like to see, or an unlikely theory on loose ends from Clara’s storyline, let us know:
http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/series-8-speculationwishlist/
I’ve put in the header a request to keep discussion to only official BBC released teaser items (such as writers and actors), so if you are avoiding that kind of information, avoid the thread.
22 March 2014 at 19:41 #26551Steven’s “who’s a clever girl then” is a bit patronising considering Vicki has been way head of him since episode 1. 🙂 At this early stage, he does come across as a bit of an arse (he does improve and sets a tone for amiable competitiveness with companions like Vicki and Dodo in the future). Their “follow the leader” game could be considered a bit of plot filler as they try to locate the Doctor, but at least it lets them locate that suspicious looking gun on the cliff.
Helpfully, the Monk has told us what it is with that excellent “to do” list. Position Atomic Cannon is a step many a Machiavellian genius has had to put on their Gantt chart to power.
He’s an odd one, the Monk. On the face of it, he’s pretty considerate and convivial. Last week, cooking breakfast for the Doctor, here he seems to muse about a blood transfusion for Eldred. He’s capricious, ahead of his time, whimsical and more than a little nuts. Now – who does he remind me of? The scenes with the Doctor and the Monk are quite funny, with Hartnell and Butterworth both with a twinkle in the eye. The similarity between them even seems to extend to being handy at rendering the odd Viking insensible.
And then….the discovery by Vicki and Stephen of the Monks big secret, and history is written. After two less than awesome cliff hangers, this one is an absolute corker.
Many thanks to @blenkinsopthebrave. When I first saw this, I knew the story well. I’d always seem to know the secret of what the Monk was, so it’s nice to hear from someone who saw it when first broadcast what an impact it had. I still find it brilliant, even though it couldn’t come as a surprise. When you think about in context, it makes You Are Not Alone seem tame in comparison.
Excellent stuff.
22 March 2014 at 12:23 #26529Thanks for that short The Sandman – I saw it well over a decade ago on TV where it was unlisted (I think whatever I’d been watching under-ran, and it was a late addition). Creeped me out then, but I never knew what it was called.
I just looked it up on t’internet and was astonished it was from Cosgrove Hall.I’d always assumed it was from Eastern Europe for some reason.
22 March 2014 at 11:59 #26528Thanks for the heads up on Cobweb. I’d missed the listing, so I’ll be recording. They’re broadcasting one episode a week – so very old school. 🙂
22 March 2014 at 11:53 #26527That is sad news about Steve Moore. He was a great one for a twist/shock ending. Must have been all those Thargs Future Shocks for 2000AD. I think he created two of the most compelling support characters in the comic that transcended the medium – with Abslom Daak and Kroton going onto appearances in BF audio (the only other one, I think, was Frobisher).
Personally, I always loved Ship of Fools for Kroton. Apparently. he originally pitched it as a Doctor story, in which he got things horribly wrong. That would have been a bit dark. It still says a lot about Moore though – jet black humour, knowing winks to his audience, and a ending that stopped with you for quite a bit afterwards.
If anyone would like to sample Steve Moores work, Ship of Fools featuring Kroton (a Cyberman who recovered his emotions) can be found here:
http://cybermantra.wordpress.com/cyber-comic-strips/ship-of-fools-colour/
19 March 2014 at 14:01 #26506Oooh, thanks for the reminder @bluesqueakpip. I need to set the recorder for that, as it was set for what finished last week – Inside no. 9 (link to wiki entry).
Has anyone been watching that? I thought it was really entertaining. For those who haven’t seen it, it’s a portmanteau/anthology series by Steve Pemberton and Reece Shearsmith (of Psychoville and League of Gentlemen fame). I think my only criticism is that the half-hour format is a little restrictive for some of the stories, but there have been some great casting choices having a lot of fun with some horror/chiller tropes.
I think my favourite had to be “A quiet night in”, which was done as a silent movie, as two thieves try to steal a painting from an occupied house. A lot of laughs and it reminded me how adept Denis Lawson is at comedy as well as serious roles. Surely there can be room for a guest spot for another Scot on Doctor Who in the future? Stick him in one of those orange spacesuits that still appear to be knocking about to revive memories of Wedge Antilles from Star Wars.
19 March 2014 at 13:54 #26505Yep – the CyberKing (shudder). It’s interesting that those early ideas both showed up in Christmas specials, and reversed what you might call “perceived wisdom”. This seems to say RTD concentrated on human stories and characterisation, while SM simply does spectacle. Giant-stompy-robot in The Next Doctor was pure spectacle, while the interfering with a persons timeline of Christmas Carol was quite an intimate character tale.
Which just goes to show that half of perceived wisdom is cherrypicking on a huge scale. I think both see the need to be seen as the crowdpleaser while they are in the showrunner role, and both emphasise spectacle and characterisation in different ways.
19 March 2014 at 13:51 #26504I was just looking up the running order to remind myself of what to watch this weekend (The Long Game) and I just noticed that Rose and these episodes were all directed by Keith Boak. I was just wondering how much of an impact some of the direction had on my enjoyment?
I generally feel a lot more positive about End of the World, even though it has similar issues with some forced humour in parts, and that was directed by Euros Lyn. It must actually have been difficult to select directors for this first series. A lot of TV visual effects work, trying to gauge the tone of the piece etc. It’s probably worth noting that these were the only episodes Boak did for the series. I know TV is always considered the writers medium, but I think the Director can add emphasis to how certain aspects come across on the screen. I think with Rose and these it’s the broadness of the humour pitch that drags me out of the episodes (burping bin, farting, etc).
16 March 2014 at 16:57 #26461Well remembered about the scene explaining Tosh covering for Owen in Torchwood. Can’t remember the exact episode, but it’s towards the end of Series 2 I think.
I think you’re right in that the time element was the key. The BBC wanted a very small production team and pool of writers on the first series, and I think they only agreed to increase the run of episodes from eight to thirteen episodes on the basis that would not see an increase in the number of writers. Hence, I think it fell to RTD to produce more than he may have been comfortable with.
So it’s worth noting that 8 of the 13 scripts for Series 1 are directly by RTD at this point and he’s script editing the others. That went down to something like 5 for subsequent series for the lead writer. (not including Christmas Episodes).
I’m also loathe to call this bad writing. It’s not my thing, but clearly to make this a success RTD had to pitch it at a wider audience than me. It’s an unusual two parter in that it picked up viewers for the second part (about half a million). If I remember the period there was a lot of favourable reaction to it, and it possibly helped that it was discussed (to much audience cheering) on HIGNFY. Paul Merton suggested Ian Hislop may enjoy it as lots of senior politicians were disappearing.
16 March 2014 at 15:10 #26455Ha – very good. The one that leaps out at me is Davison.
“Good lord – Davison has come to the fancy dress party as Basil Fawlty…”
16 March 2014 at 15:04 #26454I agree that some of the early serials were pretty good at diverting attention when the lead was away. Here, having the Doctor locked up (hardly a new occurrence) and supported by a bit of recorded voicework does the job pretty effectively.
I’ll also agree that the fight is a bit laughable. It’s actually the one scene that makes me think “studio bound” when watching it – @wolfweed suggested last week that the production rarely feels like that, and I’d agree, but the lack of dynamic action in the fight and people carefully not trying to move out of camera shot is pretty obvious.
The rest is really enjoyable. Steven gets the realisation that, yes, time travel is possible. I love the “This way” said simultaneously between Steven and Vicki as they head in different directions. Steven eventually follows her. Actually, talking of Steven and Vicki, I think they may be the only time when two companions were both from Earths far future, so even contemporary Earth settings would have been weird to them.
I always wondered about the reaction of Edith myself. It’s a suggestion that something traumatic has happened and nothing more, for obvious reasons. The words of the head Viking (love his helmet – no horns!) seem to suggest the men are a scouting party, so I can’t help thinking the group went pretty off message with their “bit of fun”. Nothing says covert intelligence like attacking the natives, a bit of pillaging and looking like they’ve had a skinfull and staggering back to the ship.
Another low key cliffhanger this week. Last week – the Doctor is locked up (business as usual). This week – the Doctor appears to have escaped! (ditto). Are we gripped?
16 March 2014 at 13:29 #26448The first double parter of the new series! A real mixture of good and bad.
I think I said early on in the SM review it was easy to see that the GAP thinking and writing of the New Adventures/Past Adventures and other spin-off media had a big impact on his version of Doctor Who, and so it is with RTD. They both contributed to that ideas machine, of course.*
One of the recurring features of them was the human consequences of the Doctors lifestyle on the people he travelled with. Ian and Barbara, for instance, missing for three years and who disappeared on the same day as a student? I can imagine a world of hurt opening up after that cheerful photo-montage at the end of The Chase.
They obviously got to look at this in more depth with Sarah Jane later on, but the sequence with Rose returning out-of-time is actually well pitched I think. Also a nice little return joke at the audience, as “companion” has all sorts of connotations these days. I think the Alien Invasion plot is actually a distraction from a story about growing up and making choices. I think it’s a story that needed to be pitched pretty early on in the series for modern times. Rose leaves at the end with the people important to her knowing this is her choice.
Must admit I don’t like the Slytheen much. It’s interesting to note the Pig creature was the early demonstration of RTDs belief that sticking a recognisable animal head on a human body would be hilarious/monstrous. The sequence with the Doctor naturally taking command of the soldiers is interesting, probably foreshadowing the fact that he fought in the war and had natural command abilities. It’s also interesting to note the Ninth Doctors instincts about UNIT (“good people”) is probably at odds with the Tenth Doctors. The Tenth Doctors belief that UNIT was flawed was really voiced after Harold Saxon, so I’ve always thought that would be an interesting pitch for a “Past Adventure” story – Saxon’s behind the scenes manipulation of UNIT.
Apart from a couple of small satirical bits about the runup to the Iraq war (Deploying weapons in 45 seconds) it’s all a bit forced. I’m glad we had The Unquiet Dead before this was a bit more to my taste.
* Just a note about those early works, if anyone is keen enough to seek them out. RTD wrote the novel Damaged Goods for the NA series, recounting the Doctors meeting with a Tyler family on a London estate, and concludes with a woman out of control in a big stompy robot. SMs first short story in Decolog 3 was Continuity Errors, and involved the Doctor changing someone’s past to inform a choice in their present. It involves an Archaeologists diary.
15 March 2014 at 10:59 #26416Welcome, and that sounds like quite a task you’ve set yourself.
On the Japan books, probably only e-bay and specialist collectors to get hold of them. They’d cost a pretty penny I suspect. This article on the site features four of the covers (including red police telephone box).
Basically they are just translations for five of the original target novelisations of the TV serial. One for the first Doctor (the Daleks) and four stories of the Third Doctor. The cover that is missing features another unknown female pointing a gun.
The subject of Canon in Doctor Who is tricky. It doesn’t really have one, just what is recognised by individual fans. You could consider it individual Fanon if you wish. There really are no notable Fanon Doctors that have ever gained traction. There are only a couple of licensed “alternative” takes like the Big Finish Doctor Who unbound series.
15 March 2014 at 10:31 #26413@thekrynoidman @janetteb I tend to agree on the whole. I’ve followed a few of the links put up by people seeking support for their bids on the site, and while I can see they’ve put some work in, the standard of recognition for the custom figures is small. When it comes to the creatures, the problem only gets worse and that’s a problem for anyone as brand recognition conscious as Worldwide. The Cyberman itself on the low right. What is the recognisable characteristic of a Cyberman? It’s got bloody handles on its head! Everyone knows this. As Lego doesn’t like to deviate its moulds too much, you can’t do an awful lot. I think CO gives a much better sense of what they are representing. So while I love tinkering with a bit of lego, I can’t help thinking this will be a non-starter when kids (and collectors) compare them with what they have been getting:
15 March 2014 at 09:55 #26410I think you’re on safe ground with Newton, although I’d prefer something left-field.
How about Operation Cavor? HG Wells First Men in the Moon is out of copyright, 2014 is the 50th anniversary of the film (with Lionel Jeffries as Cavor) and it’s good to remember that the spirit and endeavour of space exploration is best fed by the imagination of what we might find.
14 March 2014 at 15:10 #26398While I appreciate the thought, this story is pretty much everywhere on the internet with the usual suspects like Dan writing articles, etc. I don’t go to the Spoiler section myself for fear of genuine non-BBC spoilers, so options are limited.
I think everyone has talked about it loosely, and it’s heartening we’ve not even named the actor involved. At the end of the day, a lot of the official BBC stuff is vague and even misleading, so I don’t think we can worry too much.
It might to useful to have a Series 8 speculation thread (above and beyond the Next Doctor thread) to field official stories like this though, and enable some discussion on how we see the future going. I doubt it will be the last given we’re only just a month into filming.
14 March 2014 at 13:35 #26388@purofilion
I think its The Blacklist with James Spader. I thought he was watcheable in it, but a lot of the support team dragged it down.
On a happy note, I’m glad to report that the friend who recommended Intelligence to me was being mischievous and I have therefore cancelled the order for twelve roles of rubber wallpaper that I intended to redecorate her study with.
There will be payback – oh yes.
14 March 2014 at 13:33 #26387Ah – you managed to catchup with the angst around Susan in the BF Eighth Doctor run. Yes – a very sharp axe. 😉
@fatmaninabox @blenkinsopthebrave
I like the DELFA tie in. I actually thought of Delphi, and the Oracle (predestination and the illusion of choice) might be attractive to Moff, although he’s done that in Series 6. It may because I rewatched some Battlestar Galactica a while ago, and those bloody Scrolls of Pythia at Delphi got hammered into my brain.
14 March 2014 at 09:25 #26381Yes, I think this news is being carpet bombed everywhere (link to G story). Some bits of obvious speculation, but I can’t help thinking this is programmed misdirection. When you consider that SM really hasn’t played the “big bad of the series” card at all yet, you have to wonder about it.
I think some of the pre-publicity for Series 6 talked about Rivers “dark secret”, so you’re right that it’s a bit ambiguous.
Personally, I think she’s Susan. I know this will throw many people who have read my musings on Danny Pink being Susan, but stay with me. I can see a multi timey-wimey plot developing in which, over the course of the series, there are various regenerations of Susan helping or hindering the Doctor as she’s a bit conflicted about him. Eventually they will all unite at the end of the series in a battle to the death with Omega in the episode Day of the Susan. It’ll be smashing.
Sorry – my medication (caffeine and tobacco) hasn’t kicked in this early.
10 March 2014 at 14:49 #26324Actually, re-reading it was a bit heavy for a Monday morning. To summarise:
She sweats alcohol and the static in her clothes ignites the alcohol.
10 March 2014 at 14:39 #26323I think that is the interesting thing about rewatching these episodes. You do get the sense it’s very new, and the elements are designed to engage as much of any potential audience as possible.
So far, it’s very light and frothy. Deliberately so. It does remind me somewhat of the first series of Buffy in that respect in that it’s using some pretty fun adventures to trap you into buying into the main characters. There are hints of darkness and casualties in the support, but I think every new series in genre struggles with issues of tone. I can’t honestly think of one multi-series genre show I’ve watched where I’d say “oh – check out the first series, but it all goes downhill after that”.
It’ll be interesting to see how that changes as time goes on in this retrospective.
10 March 2014 at 13:59 #26321I have to agree on the comparison with Farscape. There is a mad creativity about both shows which I admire. I think I once said that, although I’m not a fan of cross-overs, I could see the TARDIS landing on Moya, and the Doctor interacting with the crew quite easily in a way that I couldn’t with, for example, the Star Trek Universe.
Just on your nit-pick with Jabe, it hadn’t really occurred to me as a stumbling block because the idea of a tree evolving a human shape was so out-there anyway 😉 , but hey, if we want to rampantly speculate on alien biochemistry….
I’d imagine the tree-people live on a timescale far more rapid than a typical tree, and that they have a circulatory system that more mirrors our own (rapid, opposed to slow sap transfer, to account for the huge amount of energy required for moving and thinking). That could be a thinner (less viscous) version of the usual constituents which are water with various cellulose compounds, minerals, sugars and balanced with heavy chain alcohols, (sinapyl and coniferyl alcohols) with lighter alcohols to reduce viscosity (you’ve probably heard of wood alcohol, which is predominantly methanol balanced with traces of others usually up to butanol). These lower weight alcohols are obviously highly flammable on their own, but mix well with water. For Jabes circulatory system to work, there would need to be a higher concentration of these to reduce viscosity.
It’s known that exposure to higher temperatures in living wood can evolve these gases (it is suggested it could be a minor contributory factor in ongoing forest fires) as the wood “sweats” flammable gas as it dries out. The more alcohol and lighter elements in the wood, the more extreme the effect at lower temperatures. So Jabe gets dry, sweats alcohol and become very combustible around the bark.
On the ignition side, Jabe, unusually for a tree, is wearing clothes. Don’t laugh, because the Static potential of clothes is well known to be a hazard around flammable substances. There are many industrial facilities where you have to check yourself with a device to measure it before you enter (if you “fail” because you boots that are too insulating, you wear a temporary band around your ankle and shoe to earth you).
So that’s my far-fetched reasoning. Flammable sweat and static discharge. 😀
10 March 2014 at 13:53 #26320I think you win the ‘Craziest Theory Award’.
Ah, yes – you are very new here, aren’t you? Believe me, that one is a cliché, hence the laughs. Whenever a new female character turns up someone has to suggest Susan. It’s traditional. Now TimeLords can gender change it seems only fair to extend the courtesy to male characters as well. When the next series starts, you’ll really see bonkers theories.
It was worth it to stop @blenkinsopthebrave s pain for a little while, but apologies for distressing @confusedpolarity and inducing tannin snorting in @devilishrobby. 😉
9 March 2014 at 15:17 #26293@blenkinsopthebrave @scaryb @bluesqueakpip
It may be the Spring sap rising, or perhaps I’ve overdosed on Vitamin D due to the sudden arrival of the Sun, but I think the conundrum of Coal Hill School is pretty obvious.
Coal Hill School and a character called Danny Pink – being a colour most beloved by young nieces and Grand-daughters. I think the answer is staring us in the face.
Yes – let it be me, in a moment of insanity, to postulate that most beloved of fan theories. Danny Pink is Susan, in the first Who cross-gender transformation and hoping to meet Grandfather by returning to the scene of the original abduction of Ian and Barbara.
I may have to go into a darkened room to have a bit of a sob after typing that.
8 March 2014 at 17:42 #26265You know, it seems like ages since I had we had a BG/AG double bill set up, so I’ve quite enjoyed cranking up the DVD player for this weeks offerings.
This episode comes straight after the Dalek serial The Chase in which Ian and Barbara depart. I like the fact that there is a little bit of space in this episode for the Doctor (now the remaining member of the original cast for the audience) to dwell on their leaving. As time went on, companions leaving often seemed to have little consequence. Here the Doctor does seem to miss his two friends. It’s not just with Vicky, the Doctor wishing Barbara was around to enjoy the historical perspective when he’s on his own is well played.
I’ve read criticism of Vicky in the past, largely dismissing her as Susan v2.0 or two-san. I think it’s fairly obvious the character was developed to maintain a particular dynamic in the TARDIS, but I think Maureen O’Brian benefited from not being told to be slightly cold and alien. There is a certain warmth about her, especially with the early scenes with Hartnell, who has developed that side of the Doctor considerably since An Unearthly Child. I think she also demonstrates a bit more independence as well, with her exasperated chastising of Steven later.
Steven. With Ian leaving, there was obviously a perceived need for a new heroic younger man, and we got Steven. Peter Purves in OK, but I think he lacks the slightly more laid back heroism and humour that Ian had. Steven started a minor sub-set of companions who stumbled into the TARDIS. We haven’t had one of those in AG Who, so perhaps the tradition should be restarted?
Hurray – the TARDIS materialises! To be observed by a mysterious monk like figure. Who doesn’t run away screaming about Demons and hobgoblins. Peter Butterworth. I know it’s unfair, but when I first saw this in the 80s I’d already had over a decade of conditioning seeing him in Carry on.. films, and other comedic roles. I kind of automatically assumed he was about to raise his robe and flash someone. Or have a nervous breakdown like his Brother Belcher at the end of Carry on up the Khyber.
I love a lot of the Hartnell stuff in this episode. I’ve always thought he’s undersold because people tend to emphasise his stern, perhaps authoritative side when talking about him. Here he comes across a bit giddy at times. I like the introductions to the anachronisms. The Monk checking his watch is such a conditioned gesture, and the subtle pause when he notices there is nothing there. The winding down of the recorded voice as well, which grabs the attention of the Doctor.
Ah – the cliffhanger! Actually, it seems a little underwhelming compared to some. The Doctors trapped, but when has a dank prison ever put a damper on the Doctors day? Nice, solid, maniacal laughter from the Monk at the end though. I’ll put it at 6 nutters out of 10 on the Phaseshift loon-o-meter. That’s above Magnus Greel in Talons of Weng Chiang (for too strained) and below Sharaz Jek in Caves of Androzani.
Gosh – that went by quick. Role on next week.
8 March 2014 at 17:33 #26263I’ll just add for new members – this thread is for discussing episode 1 only. For the convenience of anyone approaching this for the first time, no spoilers for subsequent episodes please.
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