Kill the Moon
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Dentarthurdent 11 months, 1 week ago.
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6 October 2014 at 08:42 #33129
Hmm had some thoughts on how the moons gravity could have suddenly been affected though, (and I will have to watch again to confirm this), I thought the captain said the gravity effect had started 10 years earlier. Also if I understand foetal development most growth occurs in the final trimester of development in most species , now the biologists in our merry troop will be able to correct my misconception if I am wrong.
If as some one has previously mentioned the baby moon dragon was growing by absorbing the energy from x-rays/cosmic rays or even the physicists favourite dark matter, though my understanding is that dark matter if it exists it is in the intra galactic regions. This could explain the mass increase.
My favourite but totally bonkers theory as it doesn’t have any current scientific basis is that the baby moon dragon has to be able to move itself through space and it might do this by producing focused gravity waves. This could be why there were localised gravity fluctuations as it may be like a baby that kicks in the womb though to be fair I would expect the fluctuations to be over a larger area.
6 October 2014 at 09:55 #33130Just dashing in to wave hello to @jimthefish
Definitely one theory (although admittedly not the most popular one) is that the moon is an asteroid that got sucked into our orbit at some point.
Absolutely. In fact, it had rather been discounted since the moon shots, but that didn’t stop Doctor Who from making the wandering planet theory the basis for The Silurians (it’s why they entered hibernation and overslept). I rather think that was the point of the line – it may not be scientific, but it’s a “thing” in the Whoniverse.
Just on the moon, what’s quite nice is that it is egg-shaped, but we look at it from the tip of the egg, as it were, so it looks round. The bulge was formed when the moon cooled after it’s formation with the earth. It points towards us and over time has self corrected its spin and rotation so as it moves closer to and then further away, it keeps the current face (the heavier end) towards us.
There is a detailed project gravity mapping the moon at the moment, and I rather think this sparked the poetic interpretation we see in the story.
6 October 2014 at 10:33 #33131@janeteB I too hope to see Danny in the Tardis but I have a feeling it might be without Clara because I have a sneaking suspicion, maybe triggered by all the mystery surrounding her continued tenure in the Tardis that something nasty is about to happen to her and he and the Doctor might have to team up to go on the rescue.
Hmm – I think you may be right there. This theory isn’t bonkers at all. It is very plausible.
6 October 2014 at 10:39 #33132@idiotsavon @pedant – had never heard of the rule of cool before today. I love it!
I’m not sure if it was coined there, but it is one of the many joys to be found on the TVTropes website: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage
They even have a Doctor Who page: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Series/DoctorWho
6 October 2014 at 12:24 #33135Anonymous @
I’ve read where the actress that plays Clara is off to do other things at the beginning of the year. So to me this season has made sense, something will have to happen, a decision or an act, that’s ends her tenure as a companion. I think the Christmas special may be very special. 😉
6 October 2014 at 12:46 #33136Any episode that features the main cast in orange spacesuits for more than five minutes is one that I’m not going to like.
I am getting tired of the same space suits too. The Tardis should have unlimited clothes to pick from (although the BBC doesn’t?). The same space suits have been used so much, that just seeing the Doctor and company in something new would be an event all by itself. 😯
And I didn’t really love this one. Probably my least favourite of this series.
As always, your opinions are expertly supported which I can’t come close to competing with, so please don’t take what I say as any kind of an argument. I had a lot of obstacles to get over to love this episode too. So just in case, I just wanted to give the solutions that worked for me, maybe they can help you too.
Some people might say that you shouldn’t have to put in work to like an episode – I’m certain that I wouldn’t give a different show the same chance. But when I saw the spiders attacking, at that moment I had to find a way to like this episode, no matter how much I had to stretch to make it happen. 😆
The spiders were a bit wasted too.
Now that is a great point: because without liking the spiders, there really is no way to like this episode, imo. I agree they were way too easy to kill for being spiders. So I just think of them as Giant Dragon Germs. Granted that being easy to kill, is not usually what I like in monsters, but they were so cool looking and awesomely scary.
I didn’t mind the science problems much either, but I like to fix what I can, which leaves less not to like about the episode. The science was pretty easy to fix too, compared to some of the other problems you noticed. I’m not sure it’s even possible to fix those, but I had to try.
I admit I did find the general unpreparedness of the astronauts a bit much too. No guns and is that really the best team for the job.
I agree. That is unfixable and hard to believe or like. But if it’s any conciliation, the rescue team is so bad and unprepared, that it is not unbelievable at all, that they all died without the Doctor’s help. 😀
I know you are a busy real life writer, so I respect your opinions and don’t want you to waste time arguing with me. I do disagree with the part about Clara’s reaction to the Doctor, but I will save that for a different post if you want to here it.
Welcome Back! I love reading your posts. 🙂
6 October 2014 at 13:09 #33137No guns and is that really the best team for the job. An old dodderer, an angry cynic and a Michael Jayston impersonator?
It was the only team that was available – I thought that was made rather clear. The Word had stopped caring about space.
6 October 2014 at 13:59 #33140@idiotsavon – Thanks for the kind words. Nice to know someone enjoys the posts.
I’ve been thinking about the Doctor’s ‘grey area’ regarding the future, and trying to work out the metaphysics of time travel (according to Kill the Moon).
As far as I can tell, the Doctor never had a ‘grey area’ about post-2049 history before. I think the grey area appears the moment the TARDIS arrived in 2049.
Prior to the TARDIS’s arrival, history was probably like this: the expedition to the Moon failed, because everyone was killed by spider germs before they could harm the Moon Dragon. The Moon Dragon hatched, and inspired the world to start thinking about space travel again.
As soon as the TARDIS arrives, a grey area appears in the Doctor’s knowledge of post-2049 history, because the TARDIS crew will interact with the shuttle mission and potentially change this important piece of history. By helping Lundvik survive the spider germs, so now she may or may not kill the Moon Dragon, the TARDIS crew has created a situation where humanity may or may not become a major spacefaring civilisation.
I think that in the ‘new’ version of history that results from the TARDIS crew’s interference, humanity become even more of a spacefaring civilisation than it was in the original version of future history. Because humanity has been inspired by the Moon Dragon, and Lundvik is also alive to bring her knowledge, experience and passion to the new space program.
@quantumassassin – I love the idea that Sally Sparrow is the woman in the shop. Wouldn’t it be awesome if she were to return for another ‘timey-wimey’ adventure, in which the Doctor gives her his phone number and she gives it to Clara. Thus the whole Clara arc could become a massive Moffat loop similar to Blink — but also with Sally Sparrow from Blink at the heart of it. I almost believe it could happen. Carey Mulligan is a big star now, but if John Hurt can secretly record some Doctor Who, then maybe she could and would too. (I just googled her… apparently her family lives in Wales, so she could probably pop in to Cardiff for a day or two to shoot a Doctor Who episode while visiting them.) An additional piece of evidence for this theory: Clara seems fond of classic books, so she might well visit an antiquarian bookshop.
@melloyello – The connection between Courtney and Mels: I like this idea, but I doubt it will turn out to be literally true. But maybe the Doctor likes Courtney and wants to take her on a few trips in the TARDIS because she reminds him so much of River when she was young.
@No-one-in-particular – There is another possible significance of the Dickens quote. The ‘unseen’ character in those opening sentences of David Copperfield is his mother, Clara. Some have suggested Clara might be pregnant, so her choice of a text in which a Clara gives birth may be another clue supporting that.
6 October 2014 at 14:39 #33141@phileasf I had forgotten that David’s mother’s name was Clara. I have not thought much about the Copperfield reference yet but I am certain that it was chosen for a reason. I doubt that there will be another pregnant assisant story after that was covered with Amy however. Must ponder this some more. I like your reasoning re’ the grey areas. I guess wherever there is a choice the future is “grey” and even though the Doctor has visited one future that might well cease to exist in which case nothing is fixed.
Cheers
Janette
6 October 2014 at 14:48 #33142@jimthefish Hello fellow fish-friend – I like your idea that Clara is a future version of Missy
Moff does like his mystery female antagonists – Mme Kovarian and now Missy.
I’m still banking on Clara being a relative of the Doctor’s (grand-daughter as top fave).
<throws some glitter just for @scaryb>
6 October 2014 at 15:08 #33143Things that jumped out at me:
“Oh that (Courtney getting sick in the Tardi) was ages ago.”
How much time has been passing? Or where else has the Doctor gone in the meantime?
“I might regenerate forever”.
Moffat’s final nail in the coffin of The Rule of 12.
“When I say run, run!”
A nod and a wave to 2!
I personally doubt that there was any intended pro life message here. But there is a degree of irony in the fact that the “abortion” was cancelled with the Abort button.
Did I imagine it? Seems to me when Courtney was alone on the Tardis, she fiddled with a button and a second later a wisp of smoke appeared from under the console….?
Struggling with the Doctor’s behavior in this one. I’m off to join everyone else for a re-watch.
6 October 2014 at 17:15 #33144@brewski Did I imagine it? Seems to me when Courtney was alone on the Tardis, she fiddled with a button and a second later a wisp of smoke appeared from under the console….?
I saw the same thing, and dismissed it as a humorous touch to indicate that Courtney is a disruptive influence wherever she goes!
Perhaps it was a subtle indication of something more meaningful…
6 October 2014 at 17:54 #33145Hello!
I’m new here, so bear with me while I post some random thoughts following my first two viewings of this episode.
The story was clearly all about The Decision which Clara has to make near the end. Everything else before that is simply setting her up to have to make the choice.
She would obviously rather not have to make it, I suspect because she doesn’t want to have to deal with the possibility of being wrong, and the possible consequences thereof. Having said that, she clearly knows what the “right” decision is. As soon as Captain Lundvik asks “How do we kill it”, Clara’s reaction and expression give away the fact that she feels, instinctively, that this is the wrong choice.
She is clearly hoping and expecting that the Doctor will make the choice for them, provide a third option (as he often has in the past), or at least guide them into doing the “right” thing. When he leaves, despite arguing against the Captain’s decision, Clara still goes along with it. Perhaps she is still hoping the doctor will return to save the day, even while knowing that, this time, he probably won’t.
Her message to Earth is, I think, a last ditch effort to find a way of not having to decide. Ironically, her time and experience with the Doctor have probably made Clara the best qualified to choose. If humanity as a whole make the “right” choice then she doesn’t have to. I suspect that Clara is not completely convinced at this point that her instincts are correct. She may feel, as I think the Captain does, that the “rational” choice is much safer. If she follows her instincts and chooses to let nature take its course, then billions of innocent people may die. Of course she does not want to be responsible for that, who would? If humanity as a whole vote to let the moon hatch, then she can follow her instinct to do the “right” thing, while being absolved of much of the responsibility if everything goes wrong.
Humanity, however, votes to kill the creature. With no time left to make the choice, with the Captain and humanity as a whole set on the path of destruction, Clara is finally left with no option but to make the choice that she has wanted to make all along. With barely a second to spare, she does the one thing she didn’t want to have to do – risk billions of human lives to save the life of a unique alien creature whose intentions are unknown.
As far as I can recall, it is the first time when Clara has truly had to make such an important decision for herself. Yes, she jumped into the Doctor’s time stream in The Name of the Doctor, but she did so in the knowledge that she already had done so: “…this is what I’ve already done. You’ve already seen me do it. I’m the Impossible Girl. And this is why”. She’s taking a risk of course, but only with her own life.
In The Day of the Doctor, Clara is really just along for the ride. It is the War Doctor along with Ten and Eleven who actually make the decision (and ultimately find a third option). Clara is just there as an observer. Yes, she is the one who persuades the three Doctors that there must be another way, but the decision is still ultimately theirs, and Clara is shielded from the consequences and responsibility either way. “We’ve got enough warriors. Any old idiot can be a hero.” “Then what do I do?” “What you’ve always done. Be a doctor.”
In Kill the Moon, we finally see Clara being forced to step into the Doctor’s shoes, to make the kind of decision he often has to make. She doesn’t like it, doesn’t want to do it, feels angry with herself that she was almost persuaded to go along with making the “wrong” choice, and scared about what the might have ended up being responsible for. It’s this anger that she directs at the Doctor in their final scene in the TARDIS.
Phew, I hadn’t intended to write that much!
I’ve still got some thoughts about the Doctor’s part in this, but I think I’ve said enough for now, so I’ll leave that for when I’ve had some more coffee…
6 October 2014 at 18:44 #33146@cryptonomica. Welcome! And good points,. Agree this is Clara finally having to step into the Doctor’s shoes, everything else has been only at risk to herself of being an observer. And as you say, I think at the end she is more angry and scared at herself for nearly making the wrong decision than she is at the Doctor for putting her in that position.
Perhaps the Doctor does this because he is still looking for an answer to ‘Am I good man’ and this is an opportunity to force her to make a decision like the ones that he has to make and take responsibility for all the time, the goal being trying to get her to understand him better because he feels she is the only one who is even close to understanding him, perhaps even more than he himself does (I’m going here with the regeneration reboot really having messed up his head – someone mentioned that in an earlier thread about other time lord going a bit doolally after new set of regenerations). So what he did could have been partly feeling he did need to leave the decisions up to the humans (which I think was right), but also sneak in a selfish, desperate reason of his own (understandable if he is still very unsure about himself).
6 October 2014 at 19:02 #33147Clara’s anger
Perhaps another factor might be that he refuses to save the world when she has saved him–in fact, every previous version of him. And it was her plea to the Time Lords, that led to them giving him a new set of regenerations (according to one theory, anyway). Now, when she needs him, he says no.
But on the other hand, I would feel that more strongly if the Clara in series 8 felt like the Clara in series 7.
But in a funny sort of way, she doesn’t. The Clara that goes back to her flat after work and pours herself a glass of wine, doesn’t seem the Clara of series 7. I’m not sure why. I had always assumed that Clara was aware of her own history at some level. But this Clara doesn’t seem to have a history.
Still thinking this through.
6 October 2014 at 19:45 #33148I agree – Clara (series 8) seems a bit disconnected from Clara (series 7). I suggest a couple of possible reasons for that –
1. the possible side effects of jumping into the Doctor’s timestream. She survived only because she was rescued by Matt, and it was touch and go, so a PTS reaction wouldn’t be unexpected. She wouldn’t remember anything her Claricles experienced, and it’s understandable that her recollections of the timestream are vague as she was only semi-conscious by the end.
2. Looks to me that some time (action packed by the look of it) has passed since 11’s regeneration into 12. There’s no way of telling how much time Clara has spent in adventures with Capaldi, in addition to her real life. That time travel thing can undermine a girl’s recollections.
I do think however that we are meant to see Clara in series 8 as post-Impossible Girl. No more Claricles. Unless as someone suggested, Missy is a distorted, vengeful Claricle. But that’s a wholde other theory!
I also don’t think the Doctor had any intention of abandoning the group on the moon. He just removed himself temporarily while they take the decision which he (rightly IMO) says is not his to make. It’s about responsibility and being grown up. He just doesn’t explain it very well. But he does very clearly indicate which choice would be the right one before he leaves. Then puts his faith in Clara (while she loses hers in him).
Re it being 3 women deciding on whose rights take precedence – a callout to the Fates/Norns/Macbeth’s witches perhaps?
6 October 2014 at 19:51 #33149The role of the assistant in Doctor Who – do they still do that… assist, or are they independent, for better or for worse? And my, aren’t they plucky. Modern women for a modern audience. Attitude. Its about attitude. So I thought as I stirred my tea, that it was refreshing to see Miss Oswald, less confident… not at all confident, and not a single wise-crack.
Courtney may be interesting insomuch that as her character arc goes, she will have further to travel and I assume will leave the TARDIS a very different girl than the one who stepped into it.
This episode shows us that in 2049 its still only the western hemisphere that has lights. A sorry state of affairs that with a little tweaking could have evened up the hemisphere, or gone further and put the west in the darkness.
The million $ollar question on do we or don’t we press the button? I read this as a cultural comment on television and our seduction. Also harking back to last Time Heist, the rather suave voice of the security system struck me at the time of being rather more chat show than the usual indifferent tones of the computer and the ubiquitous countdown.
I felt there were some nice taunt moments, but I didn’t appreciate the story. Wobbly CG ( but hey, this is Doctor Who)
Oblique x
6 October 2014 at 19:52 #33150@phaseshift, @scaryb, @barnable, @juniperfish — thanks for the welcomes back. What can I say? I just couldn’t stay away, although I will be flitting in and out for the next few weeks as I’m once again the throes of moving house on top of other stuff….
@barnable — feel free to argue away. That’s what we’re all here for. I’d also urge you to put down your thoughts on Clara and the Doctor’s bust-up too. There’s no better place for it than this thread. My own feeling is, as stated above, it’s too sudden and too much of a leap for the Impossible Girl to react that way.
With regards to Courtney, I don’t think we’ll be seeing her as a permanent companion as the pairing of her and a Doc as old as Capaldi just has too many overtones of a trip to Savile Minor to it. There would need to be at least a chaperone, much like Clara provides now. My money would still be on a rotating pool of semi-regular companions. Maybe we will in fact see River back at some point next year.
@pedant — yeah, I got that about there not being much of a choice available for this mission. But even within those parameters, these guys were rubbish. It was good to see the mighty Tony Osoba again though.
I enjoyed this much more on a sneaky wee rewatch. And it’s actually worth cherishing if for no other reason than it would have undoubtedly have given Chris Bidmead kittens…..
6 October 2014 at 19:54 #33151No there’s nothing going on Puro
Shiny new signs are a common failing throughout the world of T.v Drama
Oblique x
6 October 2014 at 19:54 #33152It also struck me odd that there’s such a negative response on the Graun. Normally they’re up in arms about deus ex machina (that aren’t really) and everything getting neatly tied up and possibly over-simplistic ways. Now they get a story that doesn’t give them that, that shows the fall-out of tricky moral decisions, that shows heroes changed and compromised by events and they don’t like that either….
6 October 2014 at 20:00 #33153No need for DEMs when you have emotions and character interactions to deal with. Not to mention uppity, ungrateful “assistants” (female natch) who don’t know their place and insist on taking centre stage and it being all about them.
😉
6 October 2014 at 20:25 #33154Real life has been getting in the way over the past couple of days, leaving me barely enough time to keep up with this thread, let alone post my own reactions, and most of the points arising from my thoughts on first viewing have already been raised and discussed at length.
My feelings about this episode are mixed. I found the dramatic tension, the interplay of characters and the posing and resolution of the moral dilemma absorbing, but all the while a part of my rational brain was trying to interrupt with objections such as ‘…but that’s impossible … spider things as parasites, possibly, but as unicellular bacteria analogues, no way!”, and for all the other reasons which @scotsman418 and @mtgradwell pointed out. If the ‘science’ in an episode which has the trappings of science fiction isn’t remotely plausible this is jarring, especially in a story of the near future. It didn’t exactly spoil it for me, but it left me with reservations.
Of course this does happen from time to time in the show; the only way to deal with it is to just accept that the universe of Doctor Who is not our universe exactly, and to go along for the ride. @phileasf ‘s suggestion that it is the post-reboot universe influenced by Amy’s memory is one good way of resolving the issue, at least from that point on.
Several people, I think, have said that, as it is science fiction, anything goes. Well, no, not in my opinion; in science fiction there are limits (and I have been reading science fiction since the late 1950s and have the collection of novels and anthologies to prove it). As I understand the genre it can be defined as stories set in possible futures which are founded on extrapolations from current scientific knowledge and theory, or social and economic trends, or stories set in an internally consistent future based on a plausible and coherent, if not necessarily likely, science and technology. It also includes explorations of possible alien life, biology, ecosystems and societies, and can be extended to include alternative or counterfactual histories, arising from the idea of a universe/multiverse of fractally branching possibilities.
By that definition Doctor Who isn’t wholly science fiction, although it includes many elements of SF as well as fantasy, but in the end it is sui generis, and perhaps that it is the secret of its appeal over more than 50 years.
6 October 2014 at 21:23 #33155On the subject of Clara’s decision and her relationship with the Doctor I don’t think that I can add much to what has been said already. This was the Doctor pushing her to achieve, in the way that Danny had already described to her, and when someone does that to you, you often feel resentful, even when you benefit. Her anger afterwards was a natural reaction to the stress she had experienced. If it had been the eleventh Doctor she would probably have felt differently, because he would have appealed to her emotionally and shown empathy, but this incarnation is not touchy-feely; he is logical and cool in his assessment of the situation, and is, from his point of view, paying her the highest compliment by trusting her judgement in a matter which is, in the end, something only a human being is entitled to make. It isn’t that he doesn’t care for her; in fact, without being over demonstrative, he has shown that he does.
His apparent insensitivity towards Courtney is disconcerting but is, I think, just another manifestation of the failure to entirely understand humans which was apparent in the eleventh Doctor. In the latter case this was rendered disarming because of his anxiety to please and to fit in. The latest incarnation feels no such need, perhaps because he is becoming fundamentally more secure in his identity.
It occurred to me, incidentally, that when Clara tried to pass the buck by appealing to the people on earth, she was, in practice, leaving it for the governments of the world to decide. With only forty five minutes left there is no way that everyone could have been informed, even on the night side hemisphere, and the only way the mass switching off of lights which we saw could be achieved would be by an official order for the temporary cutting off of the electricity supply (the largest component of the lights visible from space consists in any case street lights and lights in offices and shops).
6 October 2014 at 21:43 #33156I am sympathetic to those for whom the science side of the show, especially this story, is falling short. But I found the character interplay and the central dilemma engrossing; for some reason it’s one of those stories that resonates with me and it’s been hanging around my head (in a good way!) since I watched it. For example I found resonances with the current environmental problems that we are trying to deal with when we don’t have the big picture. For all we know global warming could be down to a baby moon dragon or Silurians under the earth – but the way to deal with it is probably not by blowing stuff up. As an alternative to some big blockbuster catastrophe movies (eg Asteroid) that makes an interesting change, and one that is distinctively Dr Who.
Re genres – there’s sci fi, science fantasy… then there’s Doctor Who, which is arguably a genre on its own! If you have a show which can go anywhere, anywhen in all of time and space I don’t have a problem with it mixing genres and pushing boundaries. It’s been doing that since 1963. It won’t always work but I much prefer that to it taking a “safer” approach.
The Doctor lies and rules are made to be broken. 🙂
6 October 2014 at 21:50 #33157@mudlark As I understand the genre it can be defined as stories set in possible futures which are founded on extrapolations from current scientific knowledge and theory, or social and economic trends, or stories set in an internally consistent future based on a plausible and coherent, if not necessarily likely, science and technology. It also includes explorations of possible alien life, biology, ecosystems and societies, and can be extended to include alternative or counterfactual histories, arising from the idea of a universe/multiverse of fractally branching possibilities.
These are good definitions of the genre (and show why Star Wars is *not* Science Fiction! ), even though it is always lumped in with SF.
This YouTube video Extra Credits: Technobabble (if clicking the link doesn’t work, here is the URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_F-Wsvj1t0 ) gives a very good quick introduction the the problem that I had with the science in this episode – actually using scientific terminology in a way that was *incorrect*. For me, I didn’t mind that the moon was revealed to be an egg – I thought that it was an engaging conceit – it was elements such as describing an obviously complex organism as “prokaryotic”. It was almost as if the writer thought that prokaryote is synonymous with parasite, and that just made the writing seem poorly researched at the very least, or lazy and condescending at the worst.
To give a BG example of something similar: in Castrovalva (a story which I otherwise love, and one whose imagery stuck with me from the first time I saw it in the early ’80s as a small child until I saw it for a second time in 2009), the TARDIS is travelling back to “Event One”, and the steadily increasing temperatures it encounters indicate that “Event One” refers to the Big Bang. However, Nyssa refers to it as the beginning of the galaxy, which it a very different event! Each time I’ve seen this episode as an adult, that terminology mishap has rankled with me (although not totally spoilt the story, of course!). And yet, I have no problem with an exploding space station’s time engines creating the Big Bang in the first place, as described in Terminus, a season later.
A non-SF example would be, for example, a UK writer writing a story set in Australia in which she describes the coastline of Canberra as having magnificent ocean views.
6 October 2014 at 22:10 #33158@scaryb I am sympathetic to those for whom the science side of the show, especially this story, is falling short. But I found the character interplay and the central dilemma engrossing; for some reason it’s one of those stories that resonates with me and it’s been hanging around my head (in a good way!) since I watched it. For example I found resonances with the current environmental problems that we are trying to deal with when we don’t have the big picture. For all we know global warming could be down to a baby moon dragon or Silurians under the earth – but the way to deal with it is probably not by blowing stuff up. As an alternative to some big blockbuster catastrophe movies (eg Asteroid) that makes an interesting change, and one that is distinctively Dr Who.
Different things niggle different people, that’s certain! I’m mentioned earlier in the thread that I liked much of the character interplay (with the main exception being the Doctor’s disregard for his duty of care towards Courtney, a child in his care that he abandoned to die in a nuclear explosion that she would not have been exposed to had he not brought her there), but that the heap of blatant factual errors and illogicalities destroyed my suspension of disbelief. The concept was interesting. The drama was good. The research and execution were terribly flawed, though!
6 October 2014 at 22:12 #33159I like what people have been saying about Clara not wanting to make the choice, the choice that puts her in the Doctor’s place for once. She seems to feel, both before he leaves and afterward in the TARDIS, that making these decisions is his job. However, he feels that, this time at least, it isn’t his place to make the choice for humanity. This seems reasonable to me, so I’m still struggling with what is really behind her anger.
When Eleven took the kids into danger with the Cybermen, Clara trusted him that he would get them out of danger, and forgave him quite readily for getting them into danger in the first place. Her whole relationship with him was based on trust. And in Deep Breath when to all appearances he had abandoned her, she trusted that he would come back. And he did. So the trust survived the regeneration. And as people have remarked, there seem to have been a good number of adventures since Deep Breath, so we are well past regenerative angst now.
But she really doesn’t seem to trust him, or be willing to cut him any slack, and I’m not sure why that is suddenly the case. Is it to do with Danny? Clearly, Danny doesn’t trust the Doctor. Whatever his own bad experience was, he is equating it with Clara’s relationship with the Doctor, and possibly this is affecting Clara? But after a second watch, I am very much with @jimthefish on Clara. This considerable anger doesn’t make sense to me in light of everything that’s gone before.
6 October 2014 at 22:33 #33163Hi all – can’t believe I haven’t commented yet(!) on this one.
Have only had the chance to see it once (on Saturday night). I think my initial reaction was a bit like others (the sciencey-wiencey was distracting) but ‘enjoyed’ Clara’s outburst.
Perhaps the silly-science only stood out due to the naturalness of other aspects of this series (especially Clara and Danny’s relationship). But… having read all the comments and the ability of many here to come up with better reasons to make it more in-whoniverse-plausible, makes me think that either people here should be hired by the production team, or we’ll be pointed at as ‘those guys who come up with ways to excuse Moffat (“who must GO cos I stopped watching after the second episode aaarrrgghhh my childhood and ARSE!!“).
[ahem]But in reality I’m appreciating this one much more after reading others’ insights into what’s actually happening (eg Clara not wanting to make the decision etc).
So, will watch again (when I get the chance) but mainly for the end.
But definitely feel that the Doctor is up to something. Whenever we see him he looks like he’s in the middle of something else – as if we’ll get an episode at the end which stitches together a number of episodes showing Clara or him ‘saving’ others or him setting Clara up for a decision.
6 October 2014 at 22:42 #33165@whisht hello there!! yes, it’s an odd one. I watched it again last nite with the family and I looked over at both of them during Clara’s rant -and no-one was looking- I then realised, no, they weren’t asleep but they didn’t want to look at the screen. During discussion time, it seemed that the conversation/crying/yelling was so intense it was personal; to look was to invade a very private moment. Now that’s the 12 yr old talking and the husband who can be crotchety & doesn’t mind wandering into anyone’s personal space.
Well, OK, that sounded creepy, but what I mean is ‘relaxed’ and this time no-one was! As if the scene was too emotionally charged to see. Has another companion gone so completely berserk before?
Kindest, puro.
6 October 2014 at 22:59 #33167The Doctor lies
But does he, as the 12th?
Damn, now I will have to watch all the episodes again, to answer my question.
It’s true that 11 used to lie through his teeth, as we all commented on. But does 12? It might be just a Blenkinsop senior moment, but I am not sure he does.
6 October 2014 at 23:03 #33168Welcome back! (waves)
I’d also be surprised if we see much more of Courtney this series beyond maybe a scene or two. There was a subtle ‘get out clause’ in one of Clara’s lines – “one of my Year 10’s.”In other words, Courtney’s in her last year of school before going off to either Sixth Form or a local college.
The other, more technical, point is that they were clearly struggling to combine her important role in the story with the hours an under-16 year old is allowed to work. Hence the ‘video link to the TARDIS’ scenes; TARDIS scenes can easily be recorded outside the main filming block if the child actor has used up their allowed hours for that block and ‘video links’ are much quicker than interactive scenes.
6 October 2014 at 23:05 #33169Oh now, this is interesting @arbutus @blenkinsopthebrave @jimthefish could we not assume that Clara’s little ratty-tatty room -it looks unlived in, yes? OK, I’m not making judgements and I know she’s off on ‘assignment’ with the Dr but it seems like it doesn’t really exist. She walked in and looked it -the arrangement of the house/bookshelves and yes, it was dark, because she looked at the moon, but who is she @oblique -is this still the Clara we know? As you’ve all said, this is a different person. She seems without energy now. And not just because of Danny or what the Dr ‘did to her’ but it’s like an engine running out of steam. Is she ill? Or not really real? I know I’ve been saying this for awhile but I am bugged too!
@scaryb yep indeed it is Dr Who. It’s survived for so long, has millions of followers and that…because it doesn’t precisely fit as a Sci-Fi show. Fantasy/drama/Sci-Fi with comic interludes and a chorus! 😉 it’s general @mudlark -a wonderful definition all ’round.
oblique -yes, I agree totally with the seduction of TV -do we/don’t we press that damn button and ‘vote’. Too true and unfortunate in every way.
6 October 2014 at 23:09 #33170@ purofilion possibly Clara might be behaving hormonal from pregnancy- I thought that might be an undercurrent at one point in the story
6 October 2014 at 23:11 #33171@blenkinsopthebrave yes, I think he could be lying but by omission -something we’ve discussed elsewhere -or by commission in a way to ensure whatever else he’s doing gets done and done fast. His lying could be cleverer -or worse, he doesn’t care to lie. Although my phrasing suggests that lying is terrific (!), perhaps in the Doctor’s case it is.
6 October 2014 at 23:14 #33172@lisa oh no!! @oblique and I will be very annoyed! Can anyone in three seasons stay ‘not pregnant’! Sorry, no other way to say it (as pregnancy is a binary state) – Amy, Clara -I hope not but yes, the ‘hormonal behaviour’ could be an ‘explanation but not the explanation! That would p*** me off to-tally!
6 October 2014 at 23:16 #33173The Doctor lies. But does he, as the 12th?
I have been wondering that same question. I’m pretty sure the answer is Yes. But 12 is just better at it than 11 was. I think 12 has different motives for lying too.
If you believe that the astronauts all died without the doctor’s help in this episode, then the Dragon Egg must have hatched on that time line too. So the Doctor must have known the results of letting the Dragon Egg hatch, when he said it was a ‘grey area’. That ‘grey area’ wasn’t exactly a lie, but it wasn’t the whole truth either, because it was a lie of omission.
I believe he was testing Clara, so he had good reasons for withholding information (lying), because it would have ruined the test if he told her everything.
On second thought, all of the Doctors believed they had good reasons for lying, so maybe 12 lies the same way after all?!? 😕
But I still think he is better at it than 11 was. 🙂
6 October 2014 at 23:29 #33174@ purifilion- well it makes sense to make her a new Mom if she is going to be written out of the series – she cant travel with an infant- and she was almost in tears at the end of the story- some women can get all weird like that
6 October 2014 at 23:29 #33175Hi all, I’ve been lurking and trying to come up with some bonkersness worthy of a theory, but none are forthcoming.
However… I’m pretty sure pregnant people who know they’re pregnant don’t come home and pour themselves out a big glass of wine (Pond drank some red at the picnic at lake Silencio, but *ganger* so…) and stand there with the lights off. It doesn’t make sense to be going there again. I took that final scene to be Clara feeling utterly alone in a quiet flat, the way it feels lonely after a row, no matter how righteous one may have felt in the heat of the argument.
6 October 2014 at 23:33 #33176@ pufferfish – Clara might not know for a fact yet that she is preggers- and drinking a glass of wine is not a problem -its drinking the whole bottle:)
6 October 2014 at 23:34 #33177Does 12 lie?
Like @Handles I think he possibly does the “lie of omission” more than outright falsehoods – when pushed, like in the Caretaker, he’ll say a bit more –
eg “Are the children safe?”
“no-one’s safe*… but they will be soon if you let me get on!”
Looking at this series so far it’s Clara who has been persistently lying/hiding things throughout. She hasn’t told the Doctor she was the thing under his bed (I still think he checked where the TARDIS had just been as soon as Clara was out of sight!), she didn’t tell him about her connection to the boy in the children’s home or her suspicion that Orson P might be her descendant (and she’s had the opportunity twice). She didn’t tell Danny she’s a time traveller, anything about the Doctor… or that she was the thing under his bed too. She’s still not telling him the whole truth about her travels.
Danny also is hiding things – the big mystery about what happened that (presumably) made him leave the army.
The Doctor’s disregard for his duty of care towards Courtney, a child in his care that he abandoned to die in a nuclear explosion that she would not have been exposed to had he not brought her there
No he didn’t. He very deliberately sent her to the TARDIS so she’d be safe*. I’ve liked Courtney’s arc so far and I think the actress did really well – how to be an official “disruptive influence” without actually being a pain in the a*se!
@lisa Pregnant you say?? Am going to have to get my bonkering/integration/retconning muscles toned up to work that in! Not a fan of that as an exit strategy for Clara, not least cos we’ve been there with Amy and it would be such a cliche for a female character. I can see where you’re coming from though.
*The Doctor’s definition of “safe” may be slightly different from a conventional human’s 😉
6 October 2014 at 23:38 #33178@everyone – where is this ‘pregnant’ thing coming from?
Clara’s reaction to the comment about grandchildren is very simply explained without her being pregnant. She’s already met Orson Pink – who may or may not be her great-grandson.
So she has every reason to think that she will have children or grandchildren on the Earth of 2049.
6 October 2014 at 23:39 #33179I took that final scene to be Clara feeling utterly alone in a quiet flat, the way it feels lonely after a row, no matter how righteous one may have felt in the heat of the argument.
Love that. Beautifully put
6 October 2014 at 23:49 #33180@Purofilion If Clara’s lacking a bit in energy it’s not surprising – she’s got a secret Doctor life, a demanding day job and a love life – and she’s trying to keep them all separate. Not surprised she’s knackered and her flat looks a bit unlived-in. She’s literally fitting in a lot more hours than there usually are in a day.
As a side issue, I love the TARDIS landing in tight spaces in her flat, in the school etc.
@bluesqueakpip Phew! Good point. I’ll go with your reasoning. Not pregnant 😉
(Although a thought has just occurred – was this discussed at the time? Going waaaay back to series 6 with all the red/blue theories about dopler shifts, alt timelines etc – did we ever consider that pregnancy tests can rely on a red or blue colour change to indicate the result…? (@Juniperfish…?))
6 October 2014 at 23:49 #33181It also struck me odd that there’s such a negative response on the Graun. Normally they’re up in arms about deus ex machina (that aren’t really) and everything getting neatly tied up and possibly over-simplistic ways. Now they get a story that doesn’t give them that, that shows the fall-out of tricky moral decisions, that shows heroes changed and compromised by events and they don’t like that either
6 October 2014 at 23:58 #331827 October 2014 at 00:04 #33183waves at @bluesqueakpip– good points about the production difficulties re. Courtney btw. Presumably this would continue to be an issue if she were to become a more regular companion too.
RE. the whole pregnant thing. I’m afraid I’m not convinced, and actually nor do I want to be. One of the major aspects of the Pond arc was that it took great pains to show that pregnancy did not equate with the end of the useful life of a companion and that life could in fact, you know, continue. Hell, you could even end up with the Doctor as your son in law. I’m not sure they’d want to undo all that good work by going back to a prehistoric companion falls in lurve/gets up the duff scenario so therefore is no longer welcome in the TARDIS scenario.
I think we’re looking at something a little more apocalyptic for Clara’s departure. If we hadn’t been told of Courtney’s eventual future, I wouldn’t have been surprised if she’d come to a tragic end somewhere along the line, making Clara turn her back on the whole thing. (Although maybe that is a bit too much on the dark side. Mind you, they did it to Adric.)
@blenkinsopthebrave — great clip and pretty much sums up the CiF mindset these days….
7 October 2014 at 00:13 #33184@scaryb yes I understand her energy- or lack thereof (lack lustre..) is down to an unusual life (to say the least), I just feel that her darkened flat, the way it’s organised; the colour palette, even of her clothes this episode, I dunno, it just screams ‘something’s wrong’. I also presumed the lie of omission and commission to be extant.
Of course, I’m tying up in knots things which don’t exist beyond a very reasonable explanation but as others said, Clara is so different from her previous season. Does she have more responsibility or less? I agree she’s coming to terms with her involvement with the Dr and it leaves life-long scars but I wonder what the Dr thinks of her? What’s he doing when he’a ‘out and about’ and is it to with an investigation of Clara’s role/viewpoint/actions…not sure. Just, well, I’m not sure. Well, bin this whole post!
Off to work where I can be properly useless today!
Kindest and g’night to you all, puro
7 October 2014 at 00:15 #33185@oblique yes I saw that too! We have something else to talk about….see you on the other side, as they say!
Kindest to you, puro
7 October 2014 at 00:30 #33186Not yet read through all these posts (I’ve only just had chance to watch the episode), so apologies if I repeat things others have already said, but I feel the need to get my thoughts on this episode off my chest.
I didn’t particularly like it overall, I’m sad to say. Dramatically it was good, ie the performances were mainly good, and there were some good lines and scenes (eg ‘I’m gonna slap you so hard you’ll regenerate’). But the actual idea of the episode, the moral dilemma, confuses me and leaves me cold. Or rather, I fail to understand the logic behind it and therefore I don’t see it as a moral dilemma at all.
After my first watch, I looked back and thought: ‘hang on, whether you blow up the moon or leave it to hatch, the bits of the moon will be attracted towards the Earth’s gravity, so thousands of people on the Earth will die either way. So there is no moral dilemma – it’s two bad things, one of which will happen’.
Then I re-watched the relevant scene. In fact the Doctor says that if you blow up the moon, the moon-debris will be attracted back to the baby’s corpse because of gravity, so effectively blowing up the baby saves the Earth. But then I thought: ‘well, what’s the difference between that and the moon hatching? Wouldn’t the bits be attracted towards the baby by gravity even if it hatched normally, crushing the baby after birth? (This idea simply weakens the credibility of the idea of space-eggs anyway. How could evolution have developed this feature among space-dwelling creatures in the first place (if such creatures could exist?)) And so the people of Earth aren’t in danger because, either way, the moon would essentially reform, not crash to Earth. So in this instance there’d be no moral dilemma either.’
So I’m a bit confused. The whole point of the episode is that it’s a moral dilemma, but my thinking as I described above doesn’t allow for there to be a moral dilemma. I guess in my reasoning I could allow for the nuclear bombs to cause a different kind of ‘damage’ to the moon than the hatching would, thus perhaps bringing about the different result that the Doctor describes. But I find this difficult to get my head around and I can’t tell if it really would work that way. However, I’m open to anyone trying to convince me that my reasoning is flawed – in fact, please do! (I tend to be biased towards believing Doctor Who makes sense, most of the time).
But here’s another point: if there really is no real moral dilemma in this scenario (as according to the reasoning above), then this is just another typical ‘Oh no, the Earth’s in danger, I’d better do something’ scenario for the Doctor, cos bits of the moon are gonna crash into Earth. (I appreciate that the whole aim of the episode is to show us an occasion when that scenario doesn’t happen, but clearly I don’t see it worked). Hence the Doctor wouldn’t run off, and in fact would, as he usually does, try to save the day.
The basic way to do this is to get the sort of technology that the Daleks used to steal the Earth and the other planets for the Reality Bomb in Stolen Earth/Journeys End. Some other civilisation(s) must have developed this at some point in the history of the universe, probably. So the Doctor could solve the problem by popping in the Tardis, getting control of this technology, and teleporting the Moon elsewhere. So the creature can hatch and the Earth isn’t damaged by moon-debris. Everybody’s happy.
So this needn’t have been a moral dilemma at all, regardless of what the Doctor knew about the future or whether the egg would turn to ‘dust’ – the Doctor could have solved the problem anyway, I think. So is this a sort of plot hole, or is there a deeper purpose to the Doctor leaving them alone to decide, as is suggested by Clara?
(Finally, if you read all of this post, I will be your friend forever.)
7 October 2014 at 01:03 #33189@ JimboMcMaster -I totally agree with your take- said up at the beginning that I saw it all about pro-life and pro space exploration either intentional or not – moral arguments for both about making choices and the responsibility that comes in making them- the pseudo-science never bothers me – I mean you said it with “reality bomb” etc. – but there was lots of good tension in this episode – cracks in the relationship between Clara and the Doctor – SM does like the “cracks’ device in all its different forms
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